Belly,
Again you emphasize my point. I too have experienced what you say, I had the ability to climb out but many don't. Those that can't are no less than me there talents lie else where.

As part of my early high school I was taught how to calculate interest, how to read a bank statement etc, useful life skills.
Child mothers often don’t know how to cook or shop meaningfully for their children skills that should be part of early high school. Give a person a fish (hand out) you feed them today…give them a net and you feed them forever. It’s time we taught our children how to live/survive.

Romany,
The problem to me is this fetish we seem to have with statistics and aggregation of society.
Some who post on this site are example of this 'demented' reasoning.
Everyone should get the same, everyone is found in 2 std deviations of the mean... that might mean the majority but this line of thinking merely entrenches the 30% left out as outsiders at worst destined to be the flotsam of society the rest 'failures', near do wells…hardly a basis for contentment and self esteem.

In reality everyone is different everyone has different needs and therefore more explanation or alternative life goals. All of which are sadly lacking, Howard tried this but for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way.

The “one size fits nobody” approach to education philosophy with goals measuring points etc is fatally flawed. Take the student with 12 academic awards at a school presentation compare it to the student who struggled but achieved one bronze award their effort is down graded. When it was suggested that the student each receive one award it was the mothers of the ‘achievers’ that complained about recognition.
BTW of the 4 school ‘duxes’ of that year only 1 made it through uni of choice. 1 more changed form medecine to nursing (a‘lesser’?) degree

errrr .. Kath & Kim is not about bogans, but about the far worse situation [rise and rise of Power Feminism since 1970s, totally eroding the "nuclear family", as Howard started to call it but found it was no longer PC]

ditto in more recent times for eroding male school teacher ranks with fanatic [blue cards etc] devotion to pedophile accusations

so K & K is Oz version of American Beauty, so I guess it is "Australian Beauty", ie the plastic lifestyle of the average "North Shore Housewife", who like the Benning character would never think of herself as a bogan, though in truth her "integrity" [or lack of, with adultery, murder etc] puts her sub-bogan IMHO.

The Castle is the Oz classic about bogans, but please note they are happy even though their idea of "good taste" is not "ours". But most of all they do not offend the 10th, ie do not covert. I was watching a History Ch doco on 10 Command the other night and when they got to #10 they said well that's what America DOES, the whole economy is based on coverting, as it is for the Cafe Latte set in Oz, but not for the Castle mob, who simply wanted to hold on to what they HAD [and get son out of jail]

More to come on USA bogans, via Wanda

Examinator,

My agreement can best be illustrated by this anecdote:

A friend with a severely mentally and physically handicapped went to a meeting addressed by the co-instigator of reform.

She announced in carefully sympathetic tones that all would be well now, They had listened and all the parents present would have bath rails, security locks etc. installed at Government cost, in their houses.

It caused an uproar. My friends son doesn't need bath-rails; her friend doesn't need security locks as her child is bed-bound!

The individual needs were overlooked while totally unnecessary funding was being wasted on redundant items.

Someone asked the girl who had helped formulate this policy did she have children. She answered no. Did she perhaps have training in Disability? No. Had she ever visited any household where there was a disabled person? No again.

But her academic credentials, while still wet on the page, were very impressive.

I'm not for one moment implying that every politician concerned with Education should be a parent of school-age children. What I am concerned with is that they should listen, really listen, to those who are. And to the students themselves. As well as to teachers. Not simply to few hand-picked researchers.

And I continute to advocate for more cross-discipline knowledge. Before new policies are considered consultation with others is urgently needed i.e. Educational reforms need to be undertaken in consultation with representatives from Welfare, Public Housing, Mental Health etc. and approached holistically

to continue:

A Fish Called Wanda gave Cleece the ultimate vehicle to explore/reveal both sides [bogan and cafe latte] of this issue.

he invented Otto [Kevin Kline] as the quintessential amurikin bogan, ex CIA and trying to cover up his stupidity by studying "philosophy".

Wanda is also amurikin and is attracted to Otto for her "libido outlet" but is way smarter [as a female] and is prepared to "do whatever it takes" to get the money.

Otto protests Apes dont read philosophy but Wanda simply says yes they do, they simply don't understand it

as one of Wanda's admirers, Cleese [as archie leech the lousy lawyer] then confides with Wanda re the equally obnoxious [cafe latte] stuck up Englishperson - "I have dinner parties with corpses"

So stage is set to apply Wanda to those in this thread on both sides of the Bogan River

This is a good thread, examinator. It's brought together issues of class, poverty and culture and created an interesting mix of ideas.

I must admit I'm still a little confused though as to the true definition of a Bogan. I should have known from your title that it would never be an easy concept to pin down!

For me, I think it's the combination of crass cultural taste, loudness and brashness, mixed in with class, lack of education and often poverty, though not always. As I think someone else has already pointed out, there are Bogans with money to splash about, and there are poor people with discerning taste who would not in any way be classed as Bogan.

Divorce Doctor

"errrr .. Kath & Kim is not about bogans, but about the far worse situation [rise and rise of Power Feminism since 1970s, totally eroding the "nuclear family", as Howard started to call it but found it was no longer PC]"

I see it completely differently. I would describe 'Kath and Kim' as very much tied up with Bogan culture. For me, it has little if anything to do with feminism. But, noting your pseudonym, you're possibly carrying a chip there that I'm not, which might influence your perception.

I also differ on 'The Castle'. To me, that movie isn't a depiction of Bogans. That family wasn't particularly loud or brash and were in fact I think very likeable. They were into acquiring stuff but more in a thrifty recycling kind of way, not in a crass and mindless consumption of mass culture type of manner. I'd describe them as naive more than ignorant, whereas a Bogan I would consider ignorant and not necessarily naive.

As you can see, I'm far from clear about the whole debate, but as usual, that hasn't stopped me having an opinion!

Similarly to examinator and the Sex Pistols, I don't know what it is I'm talking about, but I know what I think of it!

DD maybe you should get out more.
Any mention of Kath and Kim in the written Medea seems to call them a pair of Bogans.
Romany's story is one that hits center target, such people make policy's and are my life's enemy's in fact.
No easy answers exist, but is the safety net SS helping in its present form?
We all know story's of people being unfairly taken of it, and yes we all know of people who should not be on it.
Those willing to look even briefly at the work for the dole scheme will see its not worth continuing.
But what if we had a true work for the SS scheme?
It could be done.
What if as part of plans to house the homeless we built homes not to be slums?
We if we put our minds to it can do much better.