Examinator,

No, the problem isn't simple.

My suggestions are not so much concerned with getting people to work as about giving them back their self-esteem.

In the last post I was following up on Belly's statement regarding Work For the Dole system being a farce.

It also consumes huge amounts of public monies which are regarded as expenditure on the poor or unemployed but which in fact benefit only that fortunate young lady, Miss Fanny Adams.

Proving one’s worth to the community validates one's position in it. As I've mentioned before, all the work I did while a dole recipient was completely voluntary. I worked as hard and far longer hours than my employed friends, learned a lot, helped a lot of people and so was, (most of the time) able to fight off the feelings of worthlessness that constantly threatened to engulf me.

The only reason I was able to do this though was because I was highly educated and had come from a privilleged background. For many it is simply not possible.

One of the things which is overlooked is that the word "welfare" applies not only to material welfare but mental/spiritual welfare as well. That must underpin the formulation of any programme which is going to be successful.

To those to whom it has never happened it's difficult to explain what it does to a person to become invisible. And I mean literally as well as figuratively. Seeing people's eyes slide over one without even registering is enough to make anyone want to scream obscenities or punch holes in walls, just to get some recognition.

DD I apologise.

Belly is, as you rightly observe, uneducated. That is, he lacks formal education and makes no bones about it.

He is one of the most highly educated people on OLO however in terms of life experience. One has only to compare his early posts – which were incredibly difficult to understand – to those he makes now to know that his education never stops, either.

I have more respect for him than almost anyone else on OLO.

DD Gday, may I tell you I have no respect for you? never under any circumstances could I change?
Yep that 13 year old kid who finally left school for ever has changed a great deal.
Every day I learn something new.
But I can never not be a warrior.
Never not dislike with every thing I am a bully, or a snob.
Bogans like me, see the Sydney press about the Bogan from Logan yesterday, hardly a rough nut.
We are the first in the armed forces when needed, we often shift your rubbish or mow your lawns.
We man the bush fire brigades free of charge or the rescue squads.
But DD we are no less or better than you,given education was not so free in my youth.
Given that my siblings and the siblings of so very many eldest of big bush family's even today had to be fed, education did not seem so important.
I do not talk as I write, but the skills I leaned to feed those kids are many.
So be free to judge me, know however I care nothing for you, or your opinions.
Sorry to get of script but yes work is a start , homes not built to be slum's, but sorry we must address the issues of those who sometimes need much more help than others.
Why not have a group of jobs not unlike Romany's fenced of for such people?

I too have gone into print here and long unused forums talking about a better way for work for the dole.
Few know we once had a social safety net in place, not publicly talked about but much used.
Queensland saw local government councils water boards employ farmers during hard times fire or flood on jobs created for that reason.
Councils roads authority's and such gave all around Australia jobs to locals who would not get other jobs.
In the 1970,s the Labor government started the Rural Employment Development Scheme.
It employed thousands and built sewage plants and bush sale yards.
Conservatives said it wasted money, yet every one of their members of Parliament claimed credit for its results.
We will hear complaints that government endeavors waste money, why can we not change that?
The current work for the dole is a rort,after projects finish over sight of private sheds full of government funded gear and tools is not existent.
In my world, evil trade unionist that I am, daily I see jobs given to truly dreadful contractors that could be done for less by unemployed, who at least would get paid on pay day.
Some who contract to NSW government departments do not pay just fade away.

Lack of education does not make a bogan, and education will not cure one of boganism. That said, I believe our definition of bogans has changed somewhat since the 80's. Original bogans worked (often hard), and tended not to indulge in crime. Now we seem to refer to bogans and dole-bludgers (or the US term "white trash") as the same thing.

I know any number of lowly educated people (some who have never set foot in a classroom), that nonetheless are hardworkers, contributing to society not just through their taxes, but through local volunteering, social activities etc. They might be out of place taking high tea with the Queen, but are good citizens anyway.

There are also plenty of people around who have been to school, but it has still done them no good. For the most part they appear to come from parents who hold the attitude that the world is against them, and there is no point trying. These kids are mentally poisoned well before they get to school, so the education system is going to do jack-squat for them anyway. A few may find it within themselves to break out of the mould, but they appear to be the vast minority. More welfare is not the answer either - it confers the assumption that its someone else's responsibility to look after you (i do not advocate abolishing welfare though, as it has its place). Sadly, I have few suggestions as to what the answer may be, but suspect that there may not be one (or certainly no quick fix) - looking at history shows that we have had such an underclass since the settlement of Australia, and England certainly had similar problems in prior centuries.

"DD I apologise.

Belly is, as you rightly observe, uneducated. That is, he lacks formal education and makes no bones about it.

He is one of the most highly educated people on OLO however in terms of life experience."

well THAT is exactly what I said above about [by YOUR perjorative nametagging] that 90% of population [at least in 1966, and there is no reason why not same in 2009] were bogans. I went on to say I would always prefer to rely on one of these people educated at "School of Hard Knocks" than [to respond to your nametagging] a Cafe Latte as they are without integrity.

I will soon conclude as to the OP and Wanda [Wendy] so if you have not seen the movie then see it as Cleese is one of the most brilliant thinkers of our time, by breaking right out of political correctness and telling it as it is, via satire. I feel in my water the mod with the nod is about to GIVE the nod to end this thread, after of course the normal free ad for someones quango to cure sick bogans

DD

You’re doing my head in!.

“So I was flabbergasted [yes flabbergasted] to see that one of those administering the Holier Than Thou tut-tut to the bogan peasants was in fact bogan like [by her OWN defn of a bogan]”

Are you referring to me there? Why? I don’t see the connection.

“well THAT is exactly what I said above about [by YOUR perjorative nametagging] … bogans.”

Here too I’m completely at sea: You posted that as a response to my personal opinion regarding Belly. (Just Belly. It wasn’t a comment on society per se) claiming its exactly what you said? I ‘m confused. Especially as you refer to MY “perjorative nametagging?” …as also in ” [to respond to your nametagging] a Cafe Latte”

I have never used the words “Café Latte” to refer to people in my life. (Probably never actually used the words in any context as I hate the stuff) I’m not even sure who it refers to. Similarly the reluctance with which I used the word Bogan was made quite clear. It’s certainly not a word I have ever used orally. Why, in each instance, ascribe the nomenclature to me?

Niether do I agree that 90% of Australians fit into whatever meaning is implied by the word Bogan. Which is why I didn’t respond to it the first time you posted that opinion. The obvious conclusion from that would be that the 10% left over (including you as you refer to this 90% as “not like us”) would be “Café Lattes” ? Or, if not, at least some kind of hyper-elite? So I fail to see how my opinion of one poster on this forum links “exactly” with these views

I can only assume that you took umbrage about the “sic” thing.

I apologized.

I had prefaced it with ”In the spirit of sharing information” because I feel gratefull when people point out to me misapplication of certain grammatical rules. Your continued misuse of the term proves nothing more than that we think differently.

PS Yes. Seen "A Fish Called Wanda".