In a recent extended and unexpected stay at an outer (Known city wide as “Bogan City”) suburban hospital I found myself amidst an insecure, violent, emotional maelstrom prone environment again, but this time I was sick, virtually defenceless, trapped.
Of the 9 nights/nights spent there were 5 five notable public displays unacceptably offensive, verbally, physically, attitudinal violent, behaviour (in and around ONE ward).
(The specifics are irrelevant to this post as it is not my intention that the conversation divide along, religious or political lines with their accompanying arrogances, slanging match, slogans, epithets and pointless quotes from dogma.)

It is one thing to be broadly define, categorize (easy pigeon holing = trivializing, overly simplistic thinking,) someone else’s and/or an area as ‘Bogan’ but what does this really mean?
The aspects are unique to this ‘class’ area or sub species. Clearly untrue so what is it that defines the word “Bogan “ and more specifically, what are the implications for a solutions and science if we just write them off?
Clearly the current approach isn't working having 'no go' or anti social concentrated suburbs in today's 1st world cities is both obscene and a potential time bomb.

examinor,
You will have to do a far better job of explaining what you are on about.

I only understood that you spent sometime in a hospital somewhere. I do not know if you were unhappy with your treatment or unhappy with the staff or other patients.

As for the word Bogan. I now of a Bogan moth the comes out of the high country sometimes during summer and apparently causes some distress to those occupying Parliament house in Canberra. I think there is a Bogan river somewhere also, but not sure where.

I think Examinator is on about how rough bogans actually can be and that they are concentrated in certain areas and it's not good? I dunno if that is correct?

We had some move in from the next (very poor high crime)suburb over from here and terrorized my units for 12 months. They ran a crack house and all it entails, the lowest was one of them smeared her feces on our front door. No one could call the cops for a year due to fear... there was intense and constant violence and one feared for ones physical safety if not ones life.

I think there are *bogans* around poverty, and resentment. I also think *bogs* are socially retarded in some form... They really don't seem to know or care that crime and violence are actually wrong. Be it that they freely use physical or verbal violence or somehow affect their surroundings in a deeply negative way through their absolute disrespect. There are many kids from this suburb begging or threatening for money and yelling abuse etc under 10 years old. They are bought up to hate the world by their parents, hence they have no bloody chance in the world at all.

When this neighbor first moved in, my bike was stolen and he went into this suburb next door and got it back for me.

He was a nice guy.

He said to us at first he wanted to get out of that life and make it in the world but I don't think these units where far enough way from his extended families suburb who moved in like shadows and maintained the high volume of crime and violence and fear.

Banjo,
Sorry my point wasn’t clear. I was intending to raise the social issue that no one I know can give me a precise definition of what a 'Bogan' is. There are no unique traits that determine a 'Bogan'. My problem is therefore without a clear definition we can't attempt to alter the circumstances that create 'boganvilles' etc everywhere.
Even in a hospital a place of healing VIOLENT antisocial behaviours intrude.
The staff, the facilities were GOOD my closeting in this environment only emphasised the toxic nature of these 'boganistic' suburbs.
Current public practices of pigeon holing doesn't solve anything positive in fact all it does is create an belligerent 'toxic' underclass.
For the good of society there has to be a better way of countering their (the ‘bogans' individual problems). What can we do to help and reduce the on going impact these destructive places. Raising children in hell generally only raises the next generation of problems.

PS if you ever read a post by me and it seems egocentric then either you or I have missed the issue. To me discussions site are never the right place to run personal issues/agendas.
I hope this helps. :-)

Hope you are feeling better examinator.

Dictionary.com describes bogan as 1. A backwater, usually narrow and tranquil and: 2. Any narrow stretch of water.

Probably does not help much but perhaps 'backwater' may suggest someone ignorant and uneducated.

Can get all people into good enough schooling that they can at least have the choice to make more of their education or career... It gives options to get out bad worlds that being kept uneducated or poorly educated can't give.

This is the result of uneducated sub-culture that our socialist philosophy has produced over the last 40 yrs.The family unit broken down by handouts and no sense of responsibility.Education systems that have failed both in discipline and in their primary function.

Should we be surprised?The veneer of civilisation is but a micron thin even with the blessing of good genetics.

I hope you are now well examinator.Hold no grudges but look at the reasons and take those to task who want to perpetuate such anarchy.

Members of my own family have suffered at the hands of such ignorance in Sydney.It takes decades to build a civilised society and few moments to destroy it.We no longer have political leaders,just managers of decay.

Examinator - I'm also a little confused by what you mean as "bogan". To me, it's always denoted a suburban subculture characterised by flanellette shirts, ugg boots, beer and bad music. Not to my taste, but neither inherently ofensive nor violent. You seem to be referring to something else,

Sorry to be pedantic, but what exactly do you mean by "bogan"?

And Happy New Year to you, and I'm glad you're out of hospital!

Some have thought there is a conspiracy to keep the poor at a certain level?

One World Government and the New World Order smack of a rich elite governing the world. Taking charge of the poor and the ferals (as some might call the simpler peoples). Keeping them at a level so they cant get above it. Feeding them unemployment benefits rather than work (which is always available if governments want it). Pumping them full of TV and sport so they get diverted from the elites goals.

If we go to Revelation 13:16-18 and 14:9-11 we see a world leader, head of the elite, taking charge of all of the peoples.

Many christians believe he is alive today (see Mark of the Beast 666).

Dear examinator,

Welcome back, and Happy New Year!

I'm so sorry that you ended up in hospital.
I trust that you're much better now?

I've always associated 'Bogan,' with mullet
hair cuts, and the character that Eric Bana
played on TV , 'Poida.'

To be able to explain why certain people behave the
way they do, I would have to know more about them,
and the reasons why they behave the way they do.
It could be their upbringing, their lack of education,
the culture to which they belong...

I'm just sorry that you've obviously been upset by
your experience. Hopefully, the New Year will improve
for you.

Take care,

Examinator,
After reading the other posts, it seems you are talking about people, undesirable people that are commonly known as riffraff, rabble or scum.

It would have been a big help if you had explained that in the first place. I have not heard the term Bogan in relation to people and would like to know how the term originated and by whom.

I can't help with a solution but heres a tip. When considering buying a home in another area or town, take a drive around the place in a taxi. Taxi drivers know where all the undesirables live. Talk to the driver, money well spent.

I can see a big problem if they happen to move next door. I'll stay out of town for as long as possible, where neighbors are far enough away.

Dear examinator,

I've just remembered a joke about a 'bogan,'
that just may put that smile back on your
face. At least it's worth a try, so here
goes:

An old man was sitting at a bus-stop
patiently waiting for a bus when up walked
a teenager with the most outrageous haircut ever.
It was grotesque. Not only was it a giant mohawk,
but it was all the colours of the rainbow, done
in these brilliant multi-coloured layers,
from yellows, oranges, greens to reds, blues,
whites, and even blacks. The young man looked
absolutely hideous.

Anyway, the young man sat down next to the old man
on the bench, and very aggressively asked,
"What'cha lookin at?"
The old man just sat there and stared
wide-eyed, at the young man.

The youngster got annoyed because the old man hadn't
replied.
"What'cha lookin at, you old fart?" repeated the youngster.
Again, the old man continued to sit and stare at the
young man.

The youngster was getting angrier by the lack of response
from the old man, so he leaned towards the old man
and shouted in his ear:
"What's the matter, you deaf?
I bet you haven't seen anything like me before, eh?"

And, this time the old man, cleared his throat
and in a quiet polite voice replied,
"Oh yes, I have Laddie, that's why I'm
staring at you.
I once made love to a parrot, and I'm wondering
whether you're my son!"

Welcome back, examinator!

"Clearly the current approach isn't working having 'no go' or anti social concentrated suburbs in today's 1st world cities is both obscene and a potential time bomb."

I agree on the 'time bomb' description. Such a situation though is the logical outcome after decades of free market economics and the huge disparity in wealth that has resulted.

Gated communities are the flip side of the same coin and to my mind are equally if not more obscene than the 'no-go' suburbs you're referring to here.

Bogan City, by the way (for those from other states), is a well-known disparaging reference to the outer Brisbane suburb of Logan City.

Foxy

LOL

Pelican,
Back at end of jan for the op...can I hide at your place? :-)

Meredith,
The big issue in my mind is that none of their traits are exclusive to the 'bogan' as they are clearly observable accross the social range of societal classes one wonders why all the negative SEEM so extreme and and concentrated.
i.e. I witnessed an individual smack his partner outside the ward their words " Made them do it (sic)because they the partner couldn't accept that (the smackee's) random sex was with in the past"
The implications are horrendous.
One regular visitor about 14 was a unfunny toxic version of "Jake" on '2 and a half men' hit (with intent)his mother (she too was feral)the language you can imagine(in the ward).
The sad thing is that boy has a poor future it is the countless others that make schools in the area more like war zones (feed back from a special ed teacher in the area with 14 years local experience.
Even the private schools' students are known for their violence and antisocial behaviour.

Hi,
bogans are everywhere nowadays, and they don't need to be specified, once you see them you know whom we are talking about, indeed the lowest of the low. Thirty years ago people did respect one each other, the police was respected, so were teachers.
We could talk for hours, and not getting anywhere. Fact is, it is getting worse, and my personal opinion on it would be, that parents have lost the picture of what it means to be parenting. It can be beautiful, but at times stressful as well. If you love your children, give them a proper education and strict standards, but are "man" enough to apologize to them, if yourself do wrong.
Today we are only blaming others, and no one is taking responsibilities anymore. We have forgotten to ask ourselves whether we have done things right or wrong. Labor or Liberals, who cares? Won't make a difference at all. Bogans around in your area? Move away or use a big stick, but then you will face a judge, who will tell you that you have no rights at all, but to look away. And with a bit of bad luck, you will be belted by teenagers, using broken glass bottles or their baseball tools.
Our country is going faster downhill as the Titanic was sinking, and
explain to me how you ever will get up from the bottem of the ocean with so many looseres steering this society? Taking responsibility, unfortunately, is not our Aussie thing.
cheers m2catter

I'll tell you a story about fear of boganism.This is related from a friend of a friend.A woman who had a divorce decided to go on a holiday to New York.One day she was in the lift in her hotel two big black guys got in and one said,"Hit the ground lady."With that instruction she immediately laid on the lift floor face down.The two men apologised and explained they wanted to go to the ground floor.
Out of embarassment she dared not look them in the eye.

Upon leaving and about to pay her bill,she found that it all had been paid.The attendant said,"Wil Smith thought that this was the funnist thing he'd had seen in a long while and paid your bill."
Had the roles been rerversed,would it have been that funny?

Arjay,
That tale was reported as actually happened to the ageing Mum of an Adelaide TV personality (whose name escapes me at the moment.) in LA in the 1980's. She was in the lift with three tall Black men, one of who said hit the floor...she hesitated he repeated .........etc the star was Eddy Murphy. It was all over the Adelaide media at the time. Funny though!

CJ Morgan
I didn't give my definition as I wanted to get people to give me their definitions, why and possible alternative solutions. It's the why and the solutions

Brony,
Got it in One.

All,
Civilizations based on hierarchy have and/will always have seemingly under classes and areas. History has shown that it is when these under classes reach a critical point the society is in trouble.

Usually these under classes tend to be made up of the dispossessed, demoralized and those but not always the lower end of the social or intellectual scale. It is often these who are the most reactionary and least understanding of differences. We have one striking example of this cultural ‘paranoia’ on this site yet the individual is not an intellectual dunce. The desperation of their situation (in their minds) is such that they tend to react in varying degrees of violence be they statements like “Only a dunderhead can’t see that (MY opinion) is ……. “Through to “you made me (sic) hit you because (you don’t do what I want)….

If we simply offer up vague pigeonholing labels and then explain their predicament in terms of our perspective, ideology, religion, dogma I ask how are we any better and what does it say for the ultimate disintegration of our society?

Chew on that :-|

The title of this thread reminds me this quote from the Sex Pistols song "Anarchy in the UK"

"I don't know what I want but I know how to get it".

A 'Bogan' is a younger caucasian dude - 18 to under 30 - that is the traditional larakin that drinks beer, and premix rum and coke, likes cars and everything associated WITH cars, including racing them, and watching them get raced - see V8 Supercars fans. Holden or Fords are IT for Bogans. They listen to bands like ACDC through to Metallica but venture into Led Zeppelin's era, as well.

Traditionally Bogans come from the working class and areas obviously associated with the working class. They wear black jeans with thongs, or shorts, singlet and thongs. There is always a print of some description on WHATEVER shirt they're wearing. Bogans know more information about cars than google could EVAAAAR cough up.

Bogans like to party and drink hard. They tend to not handle their rum very well and end up fighting, eachother.

A Bogan chick is sometimes referred to as 'A Mole'.

Examinator,

I'll have a go at defining a bogan.

A gruff and/or angry individual often found in outer suburbia robustly pusuing narrow and often antisocial activities. Closely related to the yobbo. In fact, could well have evolved from/to one.

Commonly associated with mullets, flannelette shirts, hotted-up cars, wet T-shirt competitions, seedy pubs, heavy metal music, etc. The antithesis of beauty. You get the picture.

Shane Warne, apparently, is proud to be called one.

Dear examinator,

I guess it's very easy for those of us
who live in comfortable suburban homes,
enjoy a stable family life, are
actively involved in political and
community life,are concerned with personal
career advancement and have high aspirations for
our children (who are expected to receive a
tertiary education as a matter of course), to
fear, and judge people who are different
from ourselves.

People whose members live in decaying urban
neighbourhoods or distressed rural areas.
People who may be chronically unemployed,
unskilled, illiterate, welfare dependents.
People that are considered virtually worthless
on the labour market, and therefore virtually
worthless in terms of power and prestige as well.

I guess the contrast between their "leverage"
in society and ours, couldn't be starker.

Their supposed laziness, promiscuity, and
reliance on public handouts are contrasted with
our proclaimed industriousness, morality, and
sturdy independence. Right?

This way of thinking unfortunately tends to
reproduce itself from generation to
generation.

It's easy to see why. A child raised in a
'high-status' family has a good opportunity to
acquire the values, attitudes, personal contacts,
education, and skills that make for success in
our society.

A child from a 'low-status' family is raised in an
atmosphere of poverty, interacts with low-status
peers, and lacks the models and opportunities that
children in a higher class take for granted.

The upper-status child has a head start in life.
The lower-status child, a handicap.

As a result of these social influences on the
individual, most people remain for a lifetime
in their class of origin.

One way to change this - is through education.
Through giving children equal educational
opportunities. Which is something that the
current Government is undertaking to do, to
break the cycle of poverty - and all that it
brings with it.

We can only hope that they succeed, especially
if the Opposition decides to finally support
this worthy initiative.

That's the theory Foxy, but it leaves cashed up bogans out of the picture.

Cashed up bogans are those described by StG and RobP who've done well, mostly out of trades or easy credit, and moved both geographically and figuratively. They've moved to McMansion enclaves and gated communities, and they'll be pulling their kids out of private schools when the recession hits them. They've shifted from the working class social category to middle class welfare recipients, or Howard's battlers.

Bogan is less about socioeconomics and more about taste. The 'money can't buy taste' thing. A bogan could make a million dollars a minute and still be a bogan.

We need to be careful in using the word bogan to describe these people,
The word has entered Aussie speak use but like many has different meanings in different states.
Medea has called Kath and Kim bogans, hardly what is meant here.
Just as the term Westys once branded people from Sydney's western suburbs harshly once.
Do not get me wrong, the problem is real, and I know some will call me class traitor, but we ask too little of so many on social welfare.
Education is the root of the problem, but lack of will to do better is too, linked? maybe.
Wednesday morning my country town, one bank had front out of ATM its guts and papers all over footpath and road.
Alarm bells rang in three shops, and seven children no more than ten invaded Cole's, leaving with arms full of stolen goods.
2 of last nights revelers adults now sober begged for a ride to the next town giving racist insults every time some one said no.
How do you educated some one who will not go to school?
We must take the debate out of the hands of do gooders.

Belly, foxy
My point exactly.

All.
I too was from the Collingwood environment booze and disallusion. I was however balanced, with a chip on both shoulders. Left school at 16 for a series of jobs and more jobs. Eventually I went to night shcool then uni, tafe etc. But that is me I have qualities (such as they are) that made me motivated to improve my situation. But to extraplolate that onto others is at best delusional at worst churlish.
I wonder how to help these people to not be so disallusioned at such an early age that crime, drugs, indescriminate (desperate wanting a positive identity)sex, teenage pregnency are no longer acceptable options. These of course simply create the next generation of problems.

Interestingly enough conversations with many teen aged girls at the time a common thread of a exagerated need for a better self image
was prelevant. Many saw boyfriends andor babies as a way to have the power to create a better environment. An almost driving need to fix errors in their home environment.
Despite the bluster boys were simularly disposed a need to be important.
I wonder if we understand all the motivation.

Foxy

"A child raised in a 'high-status' family has a good opportunity to acquire the values, attitudes, personal contacts, education, and skills that make for success in our society. A child from a 'low-status' family is raised in an atmosphere of poverty, interacts with low-status peers, and lacks the models and opportunities that children in a higher class take for granted. The upper-status child has a head start in life. The lower-status child, a handicap. As a result of these social influences on the individual, most people remain for a lifetime in their class of origin."

Great post, Foxy, and I agree with you that the die is cast at a very young age.

The differences in class you've outlined here were once ameliorated to a much greater extent in Australia than they are today through the existence of a free and universal public education system. Most of us went to public schools and all kids, rich and poor alike, rubbed shoulders together. We learnt from each other and became a little more tolerant and a little less different to the 'other'.

Today, we have a polarised system, where public schools are being run down to the point of becoming residual institutions for the poorest and most disadvantaged, while those already better off are enjoying the benefits of increasingly generously-funded private education.

Unfortunately though, Foxy, I don't have the faith that you do in the Rudd Government to change the situation. I see the so-called 'education revolution' as a hugely disappointing con.

The Rudd/Gillard 'vision' will do nothing to wind back the divisive two-tiered system created under the Howard Government. The unfair SES funding model is to remain unchanged and the publication of League tables will only compound the disadvantage already experienced by struggling public schools in less desirable neighbourhoods.

Focusing on early childhood is a step in the right direction, but it will take a lot more than promising computers to break the poverty cycle. Unless Rudd eliminates the divide between public and private education, class difference in Australia is set to become further entrenched.

Bronwyn,
Education is indeed a MAJOR factor but as Belly put it how do you get the little blighters to stay in school and apply themselves when all about them, including parents are formative negative influences?

I suggest it need a cultural change the prime issues to me are to give them hope of a real future (education is but part of that.)
We need to change the exploitive culture. One source is the media and its emphasis on sensationalism spin and consumer manipulation.

I also think that paying decent salaries to
teachers would possibly attract better
teaching staff to schools that desperately
need them in the public sector.

As would introducing the same school curriculum
throughout the country.

Brony, I have hopes for the Rudd Governmment.
And feel that it's early days yet. They certainly
have to do better than Howard did. My biggest wish
is that under Turnbull, the Opposition won't
continue to block everything in sight.

We'll have to wait and see.

Google reveals

"The earliest evidence we have been able to find for the term bogan is in the surfing magazine Tracks in September 1985: ‘So what if I have a mohawk and wear Dr Martens (boots for all you uninformed bogans)?’ At this stage, bogan was (especially teenage) slang for someone who is not ‘with it’ in terms of behaviour and appearance, someone who is ‘not us’; hence, someone ‘horrible, contemptible’."

First of all I am wondering why OP actually USED the name if OP had no idea about "Bogans". My own defn is those "nouvaux" who migrated to St Ives [Sydney] to become the Cafe Latte Set [but of course never leave their Bogan past behind].

If we are however just talking of the view of "nice people" [those wot can read n rite and use computers] of others [who can't] then the shocking truth is they outnumber us [yes I too consider myself couth] about 10 to 1.

This realisation came to me in 1967 when my birthday was drawn from Pigiron Bob's Barrel to fight Yellow Peril [as he called it] and I found that a randomly selected platoon of 50 contained only 5 of "us", and the rest were I guess bogan-like, especially in their zeal to insert "fvck" as many times as possible [sometimes with great ingenuity in the middle of another word] into every sentence [albeit they didn't know it was a sentence]

Examinator, As one who is often heard to cite education as the fix for so much, I agree that, in this case, its only part of the solution.

The 7 years I spent in Australia prior to coming here was spent among what people call bogans (Oh crap, that sounds like a National Geographic title: "My Life Among The Bogans"!)and then, when I went back to Uni I lived this strange double life of half my time amongst the cultural elite and half my time amongst the cultural dregs .Each side used to love hearing stories about the other side – it really was as though I was talking about distinctly different life-forms to each group.

As I wrote in the My Predictions thread, the worst thing about being poor is that you forfeit societal respect. Whatever labels society puts on them, Bogans are poor people. No, not yobbos. Yobbos are simply the uncouth and once there used to be a sort of inverted pride in Australia about being thought a yobbo. A reaction against what many Aussies considered effete European society.

You said you used to have a chip on each shoulder – many poor people (sorry, I can’t keep using the B-word) in Oz today are second or even third generation Centrelink clients. Their chips have been eroded into huge heavy burdens of hopelessness as the certitude of their fixed place in society is reinforced throughout their lives.

Yeah, I know that this view will be seen as impossible to correlate with the image of the foul-mouthed, violent anti-socialism of the people whose behaviour prompted this thread. But bear in mind also that, though suicide occurs across the board, it is more prevalent amongst the poor and that much of the risk-taking and violent behaviour results from an ingrained conviction that life is not worth living.

The effect on a child of being born into a family where mother, father, grandparents and neighbours have not – or never have had – jobs is inestimable to most people.

examinator

"Education is indeed a MAJOR factor but as Belly put it how do you get the little blighters to stay in school and apply themselves when all about them, including parents are formative negative influences?"

I agree, it's not easy.

There are many contributing factors, but our two-tiered education system is clearly exaccerbating the problem. Children in public schools are increasingly being made to feel that right from the start they're travelling an inferior pathway and that their choices in life will be lessened because of the school they've attended. How does this permeating mindset help give students hope that they can overcome the disadvantages that plagued their parents? It doesn't. It's part of the reason many become disillusioned at an early age and fail to realise the value in attending school.

Foxy

"I also think that paying decent salaries to teachers would possibly attract better teaching staff to schools that desperately need them in the public sector."

I agree, but the Rudd Government isn't interested in raising salaries for all teachers. Its plan is to pit teacher against teacher to compete in a way that will completely destroy the unique collegiality which has always been a hugely mitigating strength of public education.

"As would introducing the same school curriculum throughout the country."

Yes, on the surface maybe. But on whose values should this curriculum be based? No curriculum is value free and mandating the same learning for all students will in itself advantage some over others.

"Brony, I have hopes for the Rudd Governmment. And feel that it's early days yet."

I'm trying to stay hopeful too, Foxy, but its policy decisions on education and climate change in particular reinforce for me its unwillingness to depart from the neoliberal free market orthodoxy of the Howard years, which in my view has created the rapidly-growing wealth disparity and the reckless consumption of natural resources now threatening our very future.

"We'll have to wait and see."

Yes, Foxy, time will tell. I sincerely hope you're right and I'm wrong!

Dear Bronwyn,

I don't know if I'm right. But hope is
what's kept me going all these years.
Hope, and perseverance.

I grew up in the western suburbs of Sydney.
Attended public schools, and won a
scholarship to uni. Life certainly wasn't
easy. However, my parents were the ones
who pushed me towards a tertiary education,
with the firm belief that education was my
way in, to a better life in this country.

Anyway, I won't bore you with all the trials
and tribulations of my past history, suffice
to say that thanks to my family's love and support,
I was taught
to believe in my capabilities to aim higher.

If this sort of support does not come from
the home to a child, the only other place that
it could come from is their teachers. And teachers
can inspire students to want to attend school,
and strive for something higher than what their parents
had.

I don't believe in innovations based on belief in
the magic of quantity (more money, more teachers,
more services). These I don't think will live up
to their promises.

What children need and what only teachers can provide
is quality of instruction and equality of dignity.
To enhance the quality of life in the classroom.

Haim Ginott, in his book, "Teacher and Child,"
described his favourite teacher:

"Mr Jacobs won our hearts, because he treated us as
though we were already what we could only hope to
become. Through his eyes we saw ourselves as capable
and decent and destined for greatness. He gave
direction to our longings and left us with the
conviction that our fate can be forged by our hopes
and deeds; that our lives need not be shaped by
accident; that our happiness does not depend upon
happenstance. My Jacobs introduced us to ourselves.
We learned who we were and what we wanted to be.
No longer strangers to ourselves, we felt at home
in the world."

A good teacher can cut the strings
which draw tight the shutters
of a child's mind.

At this time I truly should hide in a corner, without doubt expressing my views will make enemy's.
It always does, every time I talk about the truly poor and under privileged I am branded red neck.
But it gets me mad, people who have never been hungry, never felt ashamed to bring a friend home to a shack called home, telling me I know nothing of the poor.
I grew up in such a world, 16 kids, 8 grew up, one wage, the tread of landlords feet on our drive way bought terror.
A new home no one knew how we would find it, yet we all went to school, some to high school.
Laws had value then if you did not go? welfare man on the doorstep.
except the eldest, it was fashion early exemption to work, feed the siblings.
Our parents daily near hourly reminded us education and work as the way out, it was.
Why do so many confer sainthood on every one who gets Social Security?
My often quoted we don't eat much family I know got $7.000 hand outs, get carers payments for people who look after themselves, run a car repair and re sale business tax free on SS.
Kids need better than this, we must look for better out comes from SS and we must DEMAND SS is linked to both school attendance and real education.
Rudd is no dud, he is so much better than what we had but accountability is not a dirty word.
Lets make every one accountable for every cent of SS we hand out.
Lets stop thinking of the poor as incapable of helping them selves.

OK, my next shocking news in this thread is that the first time I saw the word bogan was when I was doing a contract for Newcastle [Shortland?] Electricity I picked up a brochure at front counter and it said "Don't be a Bogan" and was about the latest "green electricity" fad of the time in 1990.

what is more, put in one more letter and it is my initial plus surname, so I considered this "weasel word?" to be quite racist, sexist and discriminatory [going forward towards closure at the end of the day].

but getting back to what I am seeing this thread developing into, ie haves vs haves not, THAT is not what Bogans are about. For example the lousy army. The 45 out of 50 who you [and perhaps me] would call Bogan were the IN crowd, ie army is RULED by Bogans [eg GW Bush as leader of USA forces] so if anyone felt sorry for anyone it they for us [as Buffy St Marie sang in Universal Soldier].

But to return to who [bogan or cafe latte] I would like to have by my side not only in a war but also concerning any ethical/financial matter, I would go for the bogan any time

Romany, I must disagree that Bogans are simply poor people. Many of the bogans I've encountered, were known as 'CUBs' or 'Cashed up Bogans' as has been mentioned by other people in the thread.

They were people who have come from a certain cultural background, generally lower on the socioeconomic ladder, but they may have attained wealth, or they may be the progeny of those who have attained wealth. They usually do not possess what would be regarded by most as politeness or restraint.
They were typically loud people without consideration for the reactions of others, and usually lacked awareness of how other people viewed them. Their taste in products is also often derided as favouring flashy things without concern for aesthetics.

I've met many poor Australians who could not be regarded as bogans.

Though one could argue that aesthetics are eye in the eye of the beholder. Often, the term bogan is also used by the arrogant to belittle those of lesser means or education.

It's not simple to pin down, but the few universal traits of bogans were ignorance of the things that are usually regarded as high culture, a preference for pop culture that is manufactured for the lowest common denominator, and usually a loud manner of speaking.

Those are about the only universal applications I can think of. The stereotyped bogan, as mentioned earlier, likes powerful cars, beer and rum.

Belly – you are a person whose integrity I respect so please don’t go hide in a corner. We have need of you.

I am certainly conferring sainthood on no-one. You’re entirely right, and I could add anecdotes of my own to back you up. But what gets up my nose is that this underclass is only visible when it’s being denounced.

Each time a Centrelink cheat is uncovered it makes flurries of publicity; inspires pages of outraged people to write in to newspapers; pollies to spout forth thundering denunciations; and attracts smug citizens like flies to a rubbish bin.

The equivalent numbers of people caught out milking their firms, misappropriating funds, or otherwise cooking the books and deceiving people about the same sums of money don’t bring a similar outcry. People tut-tut and purse their lips but they don’t hold forth down the pub about all the low-life scum infesting the ordinary business place. The sums involved are somehow not regarded as terribly serious in white collar crime.

The thing is that these people don’t have a voice. I mean the way you, as a union man, speak for the working person. Yeah, okay, few of them would be able too open their mouths either coherently or without using offensive language. That’s part of the problem.

People talk about them. Who listens to them?

They only get attention when a) they’ve attracted bad publicity or b) elections are coming up or c) someones done a study or prepared a report.

All of the foregoing is done with no actual input from the persons concerned. Sheesh, mate, you know this.

The significance of the presence within our society (they are part of society, however much people marginalize them) of second and third (hell, I know a couple of families where it’s fourth) generation unemployed seems only to strike detractors of the welfare system to prove their point about the misuse of taxpayers money.

To me, however it’s Huge. And needs Huge solutions. Better education alone isn’t going to do. It needs solutions from everyone from citizens to politicians to educators

TRTL – (Apologies, everyone, that my two posts got printed together.)

Yes, you’re right, I’m not being clear. Damn! I’ve written and presented so much material on this that my brain is running ahead and I know I’m not using my 350 words wisely. Plus its one of those things I have been described as being “passionate” about.

I appreciate that not all bogans are poor. But a bogan with money is a bogan no less

Whatever they may become the tragedy is that, like the Beverly Hillbillies, such persons are incapable of assimilation into the wider community. That was part of the hopelessness I mentioned earlier. I’ve known so many kids who desperately hated who they were – which is pitiable in itself - but felt that no matter what they did they couldn’t become other than what they had been born into.

Look, until a few years ago I didn’t even know that such people existed. I had no pre-conceived ideas because such a culture was hitherto undreamed of to me. I was completely at a loss when I found myself plonked down in the middle of it with two impressionable kids. So my own entry into this world was through kids/teenagers.

Which is why I, in turn, have to disagree that bogans lack perception of how others view them. They know perfectly well but they are powerless – peer-pressure; braggadocio; defiance; education; lack of knowledge – to change. Then I got to meet the parents (often, initially, as a mediator between the kid and the parents) and discovered they are just the same. Then I got involved in their lives and started to discover why.

Of course not all poor people are bogans. Poverty per se does not effect ones basic being. Living without hope does though.

I still maintain that this problem is far more huge and complicated than we own and that it’s going to take more than a change in the education policy to do anything about it. We’re on the cusp of the gang culture here and soon it’ll be too late

Thanks Romany I am on this issue a New Socialist.
Hold on! its not a dirty word.
We are already Socialist in our attitude to Welfare.
What do I mean?
Not truly sure its a plan in development, what we do now is not working.
I offer jobs, yes real jobs, in country towns at double the SS rates triple them in fact, some, maybe are just afraid of change some truly work shy but its hard to give some away.
We need to ask can we look at new jobs for mutual benefit.
Bogan, I have seen 5 different views of what it means, remember we Aussies have different meanings for most nick names state to state city to city.
I do not think Bogan has anything to do with income, it was used in Sydney to describe well, Kath and Kim types.

Bronwyn, belly, Romany and others
We agree about the importance of school and other factors.
At the next level down I am concerned that because of PERCEIVED necessity the nature of education it is unnecessarily, standardized, impersonalized, pressurized and I think unnecessarily competitive.

If we experience ‘indigenous’ education what we find is that by and large it is relevant to the individual, and is largely non competitive in our sense. This knowledge involve many ‘scientific’ fields including functional, biology, zoology, animal husbandry, Botany, weather, genetics, morality etc. In fact a child at initiation knows more useful and relevant facts that the average ‘Caucasian’. Yet our ‘ized’ culture teaches these people that their knowledge is no more than a curiosity. Are our children with their wii and videos any more prepared for life, I put it not! The problems in indigenous communities occur where white meets black and the subsequent deculturing without a meaningful replacement. No I’m not into the ‘noble savage’ routine only that they show the real purpose of education.

In truth no matter how hard one tries some children are never going to achieve academically yet we insist with our aggregated standardized indoctrination. I have NEVER been able to grasp Maths thinking. I’ve seen countless intelligent children either treated as substandard or their innate difficulties ignored. It is more than special Ed. It’s more fundamental.
The net result is lack of attendance and application. No matter which way you cut it statistical reasoning is always going to leave a sizable minority in the ‘lesser’ world either as sub achievers (failures) or also rans (great for perpetuating a negative self image).
If one thinks about it this negative self image has side effects ‘school gangs’ (of which I was always a victim), eating disorders, and antisocial behaviours and yes school killings.

Those that will achieve will achieve but those who don’t need to learn useful skills like how to think and make informed decisions, good for them...good for us.

Is this socialism … no just observation/reasoning.

Examinator,

Yes, I agree with the growing body of people worldwide calling for educational reform.

When the Nineteenth century reformers fought for education to be compulsory their aim was to build a society where each person had at least a practical base upon which to build knowledge and to enable all to be able to find work commensurate with their abilities. Our current system fails to achieve this.

The world has changed rapidly since compulsory education was brought in and the meaning/role of education has changed too. Just as the meaning of the word Democracy has not so much changed as been corrupted.

The role of politicians should be as mouthpieces of the people. Their job, in a democracy, should be to carry out the wishes of the people, something which can only be done if one listens to and understands what the will of the people is. Our system has done a 360 where the pollies dictate to the people, and are so far removed from their lives that they have little conception of what their real needs are.

I talk about educational needs with my students constantly. Their ideas are sound, fair, practical and often reveal flaws even I was unaware of. But who is willing seriously to listen to them?

Valuable input comes from professional educators, academics and political advisors. But it concerns only one aspect of educational needs - those that apply to the privileged, to "those like us". It’s based on an ideal: the nuclear family where well-educated parents ensure that scholastic education is only one facet of giving their child/ren the best start in life.

Whether people squabble about whether it's religion, feminism, capitalism or media dominance which is responsible for the different meanings of "family" which apply to-day, or for the changing standards of society, they are united in their recognition that change has occurred.

Those who dictate education policy however, are not sufficiently aware of just how these changes impact on the people whom they are elected to represent.

My “Life Among the Bogans” was an integral part of my education.

Dear Romany,

Thank You for another insightful post.

I hesitate in expressing my opinion because
you as a teacher know much more about
this subject.

However, for what it's worth, I believe that
societies, together with all the social
institutions and social behaviour they contain,
are continuously created and re-created by the
acts of countless individuals, whether these
individuals realize their role in the grand
sweep of history or not.

If a modern society goes to war, it's not
just because the leaders have opted for war,
but because the people have implicitly or
explicitly done so also, or at least, they
haven't opted for peace.

The Vietnam war came to an end largely because
of the antiwar movement, a social movement that
consisted disproportionately of young people,
including many university students. When the
antiwar movement first challenged the war, it
received little support from politicians or the
press, and its goals seemed hopeless.

But the tide of public opinion gradually began to shift.

The point that I'm making is that through
collective action, ordinary people with few
resources other than their own determination can
change things.

Not only universities but TAFE colleges have
student organisations that can influence
policies. Traditionally, university and college
campuses are places that encourage discussion,
and debates.

But it doesn't stop there. People from all walks
of life are letting politicians know how they
feel about things, and the changes they want
made. People are no longer satisfied with
only the 'elite' being served. Howard would still
be in power if that were the case.

The disgruntled do have a voice - from pensioners,
working mothers, young families, students,
to the unemployed. They can make their votes count.
And I'm sure they will, in the next election.

When people within a demographic of society feel they are segregated, there are three possibilities:

1) They can continue to feel ostracized.
2) They can attempt successfully or unsuccessfully to assimilate.
3) They can attempt to change the society to suit them.

As veterans of these threads are well aware, there's a legion of people who comment on ostracized muslim communities and how they're trying to change Australian society.

(I'm mentioning this in passing on my way to my key point, for the love of god, please, don't flesh out this worn out topic up again. If you must have another go, start a new mundane thread, but don't divert this interesting one).

I view that as an unrealistic possibility, because the fearful scenario they predict is too divorced from the reality of Australian life and culture. Such an overthrow seems like a dystopian fantasy.

But, to get back to the 'bogan' stereotype, there's an irony in that the stereotyped Australian is often remarkably similar to the stereotyped bogan.

I say this Romany, because while there is no doubt in my mind that for many 'bogans' you're right in that they desire to fit in with society and to be viewed differently, there is also a large proportion who see things differently and consider themselves to be the pinnacle of being Australian.
Indeed, without an educated Australian 'stereotype' how can we rebut the assertion that they are indeed a representative Australian person?
The only reason why I have issue with it, is that it still defines the image of Australians today, and it also defines what we consider to be our popular culture.
Is it elitist to express disappointment that so many Australians consider the 'biggest loser' to be worthwhile programming? What happens when the subset of society that considers such things to be of the most importance, grows to such proportions that informative programming is canned?
What happens when we extend this example to other aspects of our cultural fabric?

I take on board every post, but my world has been very close to the badly educated poor, I came from their ranks.
Education is not all gained in schools, my best came from WASP parents, get a job work your way up.
22 years working for a NSW government department, in a union delegate leadership roll for most of it.
In a constant improvement culture, we found 1 in 6 could not read or write.
One in a management roll, helped set up a school and we saw that number drop.
Daily I see workplace failures schemes put in place to give people a chance fail.
Education is the reason, every time.
No one said get a job to them.
No way they understand its wrong to not try to make it work.
yes educate for real needs but until we educate for real life we fail too.
Tomorrow, first day back at work, grown men [ you must watch for it be ready act wise] will ask to see me in private, to read the last fortnights letters, yet they have worked without ever reading for lifetimes.
Some can not do it, ask for help, some give it up as too hard but we must find answers in education.

Belly,
Again you emphasize my point. I too have experienced what you say, I had the ability to climb out but many don't. Those that can't are no less than me there talents lie else where.

As part of my early high school I was taught how to calculate interest, how to read a bank statement etc, useful life skills.
Child mothers often don’t know how to cook or shop meaningfully for their children skills that should be part of early high school. Give a person a fish (hand out) you feed them today…give them a net and you feed them forever. It’s time we taught our children how to live/survive.

Romany,
The problem to me is this fetish we seem to have with statistics and aggregation of society.
Some who post on this site are example of this 'demented' reasoning.
Everyone should get the same, everyone is found in 2 std deviations of the mean... that might mean the majority but this line of thinking merely entrenches the 30% left out as outsiders at worst destined to be the flotsam of society the rest 'failures', near do wells…hardly a basis for contentment and self esteem.

In reality everyone is different everyone has different needs and therefore more explanation or alternative life goals. All of which are sadly lacking, Howard tried this but for the wrong reasons and in the wrong way.

The “one size fits nobody” approach to education philosophy with goals measuring points etc is fatally flawed. Take the student with 12 academic awards at a school presentation compare it to the student who struggled but achieved one bronze award their effort is down graded. When it was suggested that the student each receive one award it was the mothers of the ‘achievers’ that complained about recognition.
BTW of the 4 school ‘duxes’ of that year only 1 made it through uni of choice. 1 more changed form medecine to nursing (a‘lesser’?) degree

errrr .. Kath & Kim is not about bogans, but about the far worse situation [rise and rise of Power Feminism since 1970s, totally eroding the "nuclear family", as Howard started to call it but found it was no longer PC]

ditto in more recent times for eroding male school teacher ranks with fanatic [blue cards etc] devotion to pedophile accusations

so K & K is Oz version of American Beauty, so I guess it is "Australian Beauty", ie the plastic lifestyle of the average "North Shore Housewife", who like the Benning character would never think of herself as a bogan, though in truth her "integrity" [or lack of, with adultery, murder etc] puts her sub-bogan IMHO.

The Castle is the Oz classic about bogans, but please note they are happy even though their idea of "good taste" is not "ours". But most of all they do not offend the 10th, ie do not covert. I was watching a History Ch doco on 10 Command the other night and when they got to #10 they said well that's what America DOES, the whole economy is based on coverting, as it is for the Cafe Latte set in Oz, but not for the Castle mob, who simply wanted to hold on to what they HAD [and get son out of jail]

More to come on USA bogans, via Wanda

Examinator,

My agreement can best be illustrated by this anecdote:

A friend with a severely mentally and physically handicapped went to a meeting addressed by the co-instigator of reform.

She announced in carefully sympathetic tones that all would be well now, They had listened and all the parents present would have bath rails, security locks etc. installed at Government cost, in their houses.

It caused an uproar. My friends son doesn't need bath-rails; her friend doesn't need security locks as her child is bed-bound!

The individual needs were overlooked while totally unnecessary funding was being wasted on redundant items.

Someone asked the girl who had helped formulate this policy did she have children. She answered no. Did she perhaps have training in Disability? No. Had she ever visited any household where there was a disabled person? No again.

But her academic credentials, while still wet on the page, were very impressive.

I'm not for one moment implying that every politician concerned with Education should be a parent of school-age children. What I am concerned with is that they should listen, really listen, to those who are. And to the students themselves. As well as to teachers. Not simply to few hand-picked researchers.

And I continute to advocate for more cross-discipline knowledge. Before new policies are considered consultation with others is urgently needed i.e. Educational reforms need to be undertaken in consultation with representatives from Welfare, Public Housing, Mental Health etc. and approached holistically

to continue:

A Fish Called Wanda gave Cleece the ultimate vehicle to explore/reveal both sides [bogan and cafe latte] of this issue.

he invented Otto [Kevin Kline] as the quintessential amurikin bogan, ex CIA and trying to cover up his stupidity by studying "philosophy".

Wanda is also amurikin and is attracted to Otto for her "libido outlet" but is way smarter [as a female] and is prepared to "do whatever it takes" to get the money.

Otto protests Apes dont read philosophy but Wanda simply says yes they do, they simply don't understand it

as one of Wanda's admirers, Cleese [as archie leech the lousy lawyer] then confides with Wanda re the equally obnoxious [cafe latte] stuck up Englishperson - "I have dinner parties with corpses"

So stage is set to apply Wanda to those in this thread on both sides of the Bogan River

This is a good thread, examinator. It's brought together issues of class, poverty and culture and created an interesting mix of ideas.

I must admit I'm still a little confused though as to the true definition of a Bogan. I should have known from your title that it would never be an easy concept to pin down!

For me, I think it's the combination of crass cultural taste, loudness and brashness, mixed in with class, lack of education and often poverty, though not always. As I think someone else has already pointed out, there are Bogans with money to splash about, and there are poor people with discerning taste who would not in any way be classed as Bogan.

Divorce Doctor

"errrr .. Kath & Kim is not about bogans, but about the far worse situation [rise and rise of Power Feminism since 1970s, totally eroding the "nuclear family", as Howard started to call it but found it was no longer PC]"

I see it completely differently. I would describe 'Kath and Kim' as very much tied up with Bogan culture. For me, it has little if anything to do with feminism. But, noting your pseudonym, you're possibly carrying a chip there that I'm not, which might influence your perception.

I also differ on 'The Castle'. To me, that movie isn't a depiction of Bogans. That family wasn't particularly loud or brash and were in fact I think very likeable. They were into acquiring stuff but more in a thrifty recycling kind of way, not in a crass and mindless consumption of mass culture type of manner. I'd describe them as naive more than ignorant, whereas a Bogan I would consider ignorant and not necessarily naive.

As you can see, I'm far from clear about the whole debate, but as usual, that hasn't stopped me having an opinion!

Similarly to examinator and the Sex Pistols, I don't know what it is I'm talking about, but I know what I think of it!

DD maybe you should get out more.
Any mention of Kath and Kim in the written Medea seems to call them a pair of Bogans.
Romany's story is one that hits center target, such people make policy's and are my life's enemy's in fact.
No easy answers exist, but is the safety net SS helping in its present form?
We all know story's of people being unfairly taken of it, and yes we all know of people who should not be on it.
Those willing to look even briefly at the work for the dole scheme will see its not worth continuing.
But what if we had a true work for the SS scheme?
It could be done.
What if as part of plans to house the homeless we built homes not to be slums?
We if we put our minds to it can do much better.

sorry old chaps, caught up in a maelstrom of mail and problem's [sic] from those I help [ie not well of [sic]]. Possibly bogans but more often cafe lattes

Will get back to Wanda ASAP, but watch them maelstroms yo all here [sic]

"But what if we had a true work for the SS scheme?"

Ah, mate; this has been my contention for years.

We all know that a) the published unemployment figures are a complete crock and b) continued lack of work breeds self-contempt and an underclass (Bogans?) that is separate from the mainstream.

I've expressed my ideas time and time again on this forum about this and no-one has ever paid any attention.

But unemployed people could be brought into the mainstream in so many ways: those from different cultures could visit schools to introduce that culture, those with skills could conduct classes (cooking, welding, child-minding, remedial reading, carpentry, art), collectives could be formed, child-minding and play-groups formed...I've gone into it all in detail before so I don't want to repeat myself.

None of this however will ever happen while the current method of getting people to make decisions FOR us instead of WITH us is so entrenched.

p.s. (DD in the spirit of sharing knowledge you might like to know that "sic" basically means "as it was written". It's used when we are quoting someone else and they have made an error or used a term we do not agree with It clarifies that it's their error/idea and not ours.)

I WAS quoting another [but not sure if bogan or (uneducated) cafe latte], per:

"Romany's story is one that hits center target, such people make policy's [sic] and are my life's enemy's in fact.
No easy answers exist, but is the safety net SS helping in its present form?
We all know story's of people being unfairly taken of [sic] it, and yes we all know of people who should not be on it."

quite apart from ending sentence in a proposition - lol

Romany,
I wonder if the problem is more complex than simply getting people to work.
I would suggest that 'bogan (underclass)' is more a combination of many things.
As belly rightly said how do you motive the deeply unmotivated, those who BELIEVE that they are discriminated against or BELIEVE they aren't getting a fair shake.
Much of their US against them has more to do with the environment in which they're raised. SS is often all they know and from this come the innate belief that they have the right to it even if they have to lie. After all they see corruption every day and how people profit from it.
Additionally THEY don't perceive themselves as anything but average and that others are snobs or worse. In is inculcated resentment that seems to feed their anti social behaviours.
The solution, I dunno I look to others to make the spark (thread). I only hope it comes soon as history has shown when this underclass gets angry enough societies have problems …LA riots over Rodney King. The riots at the Sydney Beaches et al

p.s. (DD in the spirit of sharing knowledge you might like to know that "sic" basically means "as it was written". It's used when we are quoting someone else and they have made an error or used a term we do not agree with It clarifies that it's their error/idea and not ours.)

It's also a good way of putting people down by pointing out their errors to all, parading your intellectual superiority, and conflating the errors in their spelling with supposed errors in their argument. I think it has no place on an informal forum. Nobody likes a pedant. I excuse some who are from a journalistic background. To some extent. Actually I don't really.

"the errors in their spelling with supposed errors in their argument."
-

once again I was just doing it in a subtle way [which I did not really expect cafe latte's [sic] to pick up upon].

I am on a huge number of forums, mostly conversing with amurikins [God bless em] and there is a most marked decline [a maelstrom as the OP would say?] in the dexterity of basic English usage, AND the most frequent are dog's = dogs, there = their [and vice versa] your = you're, of = off and to = too

It is way to [sic] prevalent to not be simply "as teached" in schools, ie passed down from teacher to pupil.

So we come to yet another boring [but disguised as a maelstrom problem] thread where as well as jesus, mary and that ghost bloke getting a run, SS and "better schooling for bogans" always comes up.

So I was flabbergasted [yes flabbergasted] to see that one of those administering the Holier Than Thou tut-tut to the bogan peasants was in fact bogan like [by her OWN defn of a bogan]

so back to my throne and remember yo all, no sinning, do yo all here [sic]

Examinator,

No, the problem isn't simple.

My suggestions are not so much concerned with getting people to work as about giving them back their self-esteem.

In the last post I was following up on Belly's statement regarding Work For the Dole system being a farce.

It also consumes huge amounts of public monies which are regarded as expenditure on the poor or unemployed but which in fact benefit only that fortunate young lady, Miss Fanny Adams.

Proving one’s worth to the community validates one's position in it. As I've mentioned before, all the work I did while a dole recipient was completely voluntary. I worked as hard and far longer hours than my employed friends, learned a lot, helped a lot of people and so was, (most of the time) able to fight off the feelings of worthlessness that constantly threatened to engulf me.

The only reason I was able to do this though was because I was highly educated and had come from a privilleged background. For many it is simply not possible.

One of the things which is overlooked is that the word "welfare" applies not only to material welfare but mental/spiritual welfare as well. That must underpin the formulation of any programme which is going to be successful.

To those to whom it has never happened it's difficult to explain what it does to a person to become invisible. And I mean literally as well as figuratively. Seeing people's eyes slide over one without even registering is enough to make anyone want to scream obscenities or punch holes in walls, just to get some recognition.

DD I apologise.

Belly is, as you rightly observe, uneducated. That is, he lacks formal education and makes no bones about it.

He is one of the most highly educated people on OLO however in terms of life experience. One has only to compare his early posts – which were incredibly difficult to understand – to those he makes now to know that his education never stops, either.

I have more respect for him than almost anyone else on OLO.

DD Gday, may I tell you I have no respect for you? never under any circumstances could I change?
Yep that 13 year old kid who finally left school for ever has changed a great deal.
Every day I learn something new.
But I can never not be a warrior.
Never not dislike with every thing I am a bully, or a snob.
Bogans like me, see the Sydney press about the Bogan from Logan yesterday, hardly a rough nut.
We are the first in the armed forces when needed, we often shift your rubbish or mow your lawns.
We man the bush fire brigades free of charge or the rescue squads.
But DD we are no less or better than you,given education was not so free in my youth.
Given that my siblings and the siblings of so very many eldest of big bush family's even today had to be fed, education did not seem so important.
I do not talk as I write, but the skills I leaned to feed those kids are many.
So be free to judge me, know however I care nothing for you, or your opinions.
Sorry to get of script but yes work is a start , homes not built to be slum's, but sorry we must address the issues of those who sometimes need much more help than others.
Why not have a group of jobs not unlike Romany's fenced of for such people?

I too have gone into print here and long unused forums talking about a better way for work for the dole.
Few know we once had a social safety net in place, not publicly talked about but much used.
Queensland saw local government councils water boards employ farmers during hard times fire or flood on jobs created for that reason.
Councils roads authority's and such gave all around Australia jobs to locals who would not get other jobs.
In the 1970,s the Labor government started the Rural Employment Development Scheme.
It employed thousands and built sewage plants and bush sale yards.
Conservatives said it wasted money, yet every one of their members of Parliament claimed credit for its results.
We will hear complaints that government endeavors waste money, why can we not change that?
The current work for the dole is a rort,after projects finish over sight of private sheds full of government funded gear and tools is not existent.
In my world, evil trade unionist that I am, daily I see jobs given to truly dreadful contractors that could be done for less by unemployed, who at least would get paid on pay day.
Some who contract to NSW government departments do not pay just fade away.

Lack of education does not make a bogan, and education will not cure one of boganism. That said, I believe our definition of bogans has changed somewhat since the 80's. Original bogans worked (often hard), and tended not to indulge in crime. Now we seem to refer to bogans and dole-bludgers (or the US term "white trash") as the same thing.

I know any number of lowly educated people (some who have never set foot in a classroom), that nonetheless are hardworkers, contributing to society not just through their taxes, but through local volunteering, social activities etc. They might be out of place taking high tea with the Queen, but are good citizens anyway.

There are also plenty of people around who have been to school, but it has still done them no good. For the most part they appear to come from parents who hold the attitude that the world is against them, and there is no point trying. These kids are mentally poisoned well before they get to school, so the education system is going to do jack-squat for them anyway. A few may find it within themselves to break out of the mould, but they appear to be the vast minority. More welfare is not the answer either - it confers the assumption that its someone else's responsibility to look after you (i do not advocate abolishing welfare though, as it has its place). Sadly, I have few suggestions as to what the answer may be, but suspect that there may not be one (or certainly no quick fix) - looking at history shows that we have had such an underclass since the settlement of Australia, and England certainly had similar problems in prior centuries.

"DD I apologise.

Belly is, as you rightly observe, uneducated. That is, he lacks formal education and makes no bones about it.

He is one of the most highly educated people on OLO however in terms of life experience."

well THAT is exactly what I said above about [by YOUR perjorative nametagging] that 90% of population [at least in 1966, and there is no reason why not same in 2009] were bogans. I went on to say I would always prefer to rely on one of these people educated at "School of Hard Knocks" than [to respond to your nametagging] a Cafe Latte as they are without integrity.

I will soon conclude as to the OP and Wanda [Wendy] so if you have not seen the movie then see it as Cleese is one of the most brilliant thinkers of our time, by breaking right out of political correctness and telling it as it is, via satire. I feel in my water the mod with the nod is about to GIVE the nod to end this thread, after of course the normal free ad for someones quango to cure sick bogans

DD

You’re doing my head in!.

“So I was flabbergasted [yes flabbergasted] to see that one of those administering the Holier Than Thou tut-tut to the bogan peasants was in fact bogan like [by her OWN defn of a bogan]”

Are you referring to me there? Why? I don’t see the connection.

“well THAT is exactly what I said above about [by YOUR perjorative nametagging] … bogans.”

Here too I’m completely at sea: You posted that as a response to my personal opinion regarding Belly. (Just Belly. It wasn’t a comment on society per se) claiming its exactly what you said? I ‘m confused. Especially as you refer to MY “perjorative nametagging?” …as also in ” [to respond to your nametagging] a Cafe Latte”

I have never used the words “Café Latte” to refer to people in my life. (Probably never actually used the words in any context as I hate the stuff) I’m not even sure who it refers to. Similarly the reluctance with which I used the word Bogan was made quite clear. It’s certainly not a word I have ever used orally. Why, in each instance, ascribe the nomenclature to me?

Niether do I agree that 90% of Australians fit into whatever meaning is implied by the word Bogan. Which is why I didn’t respond to it the first time you posted that opinion. The obvious conclusion from that would be that the 10% left over (including you as you refer to this 90% as “not like us”) would be “Café Lattes” ? Or, if not, at least some kind of hyper-elite? So I fail to see how my opinion of one poster on this forum links “exactly” with these views

I can only assume that you took umbrage about the “sic” thing.

I apologized.

I had prefaced it with ”In the spirit of sharing information” because I feel gratefull when people point out to me misapplication of certain grammatical rules. Your continued misuse of the term proves nothing more than that we think differently.

PS Yes. Seen "A Fish Called Wanda".

DD,
The point of this post was to identify what is meant by the term 'bogan' and to ascertain if there were common elements that might be resolved thus reducing the likelyhood of social breakdown.

Country Gal's summation is a good one.
No one is mercilessly vilafying anyone.

I think the "cafe latte set" are armchair middleclass, self important ill informed people who pontificate on all things social (as in gossip) This definition clearly fits neither the topic of bogans nor Romany. As this its a public debate I started in which I've a deep life time interest and respect all honest opinions. I am curious and bewildered as to what is your point.

bit busy again but I will answer both of you later [if topic not ruled off], but basically it is the Maelstrom I think that made ME quite ill

"I found myself amidst an insecure, violent, emotional maelstrom prone environment again, but this time I was sick, virtually defenceless, trapped."

it's very dramatic mate but way too cras - next time try "It was a dark and windy night .."

are you actually Tony Abbott? - I though John Marsden from the above but he is dead

instead of Maelstrom prone why not Maelstromic, going forward

never pass up a good opportunity to invent a new PC word - Don Watson

odd, I would've thought the politically correct approach to bogon or yobbo being antisocial would have been to pander to them and accuse their victims of racism...or yanno, some kinda *ism or bognaphobia etc bla bla..

I don't think saying what can we do about it is PC at all, I think it is what needs to be done...

Heck, if you're going to start on about the 'cafe-latte' set, may as well discuss their close cousins, the 'tofu-munchers'.
While we're at it, how about the 'intellectual elite.' Of course, some might confuse them for the 'yuppies' who are busy disparaging the 'bogans' and 'yobbos.'
That's just the broad categories. Within the 'youth' or 'yoof' bracket, we have the 'emos' and 'skaties' not to mention the 'homeboys' though they go by different nomenclature in different places.
Wait a mo - have we touched on the 'surfies'? or would that be mistaken for the 'hippies?' Maybe we can draw a circle around them and call them 'bohemian.'
Of course, we'd better not forget the country lads or 'larrikins' as the friendlier ones are called. We don't have 'rednecks' around here as much, but we've sure got 'derros' as I've heard them called.

The truth is that these groups are pretty fluid. A bohemian can be a yuppie in his work week, take to surfing in the afternoon and end up a hippie by the weekend, while being a bit of a larrikin around his mates. He may even be part of the intellectual elite and have a preference for tofu.

A country lad might seem like a bogan with a few beers under his belt, but also be a high powered businessman. He could qualify as a yuppie as well.

So what are we really talking about here? If it's an underclass who lacks education and typically has a lack of sensitivity, then this is a worldwide phenomenon with a local flavour.
As Country Gal points out, education won't work for all, but by the same token it'll work for some. All we can do is provide the opportunity and a little encouragement.
It's the level of encouragement that generally causes disagreement, because as sad as it is, some people just don't have the drive to improve that situation.
Also, some dispute that education is worthwhile - the very fact that Australia and America are some of the few countries to make the term 'intellectual' an insult, is rather telling.

bognaphobia

has a good ring [no pun intended] to it, at the end of the day, going forward towards closure

but "antisocial" - well TO whowm and BY whose standards

THAT is the problem with this thread, despite being PC, it ASSUMES a social standing ONE WAY and as for Abbott's "Mail Order Bride" quip, I find the ref to bogans by the OP as utterly offensive.

But Wanda gives the ready made apology [to follow once I get time and brownie points to post again], nudge nudge wink wink.

"why did they name their daughter after a car?"

Lets forget the word Bogan, lets ask what can we do about current front page problems with public housing developments.
And country Girl I too want no increase in welfare, but we spend so very much now why not do it better?
We can talk about it forever but names bog us down, who does not understand who we are talking about?
Why fear spending more? if the results are many times better we all win.
Right now teachers in rural community's get more funds to teach problem children, is that the only way?
Color has nothing to do with it children should go to school, parents should not be able to take money but ruin kids lives.
A new work scheme could see some being educated as the job.
We should not except some will never be educated to at least read and write and maybe understand how the world around them works.
Lets not get bogged down in Belly poor fella, I would never swap my life for anyones.
My best education was the daily lectures from mum and dad , get a job work well save work your way out of this.
Hope they are as content as I am.

Divorce Doctor have a little self control please.
Your posts have been a bit weird from the time I rebutted you.
Like others I am lost trying to understand what they are about.
I am not going to get into a childlike verbal stone throwing match with you.
I said it before, I am totally unconcerned what you think, rarely do I write another human being of, I rarely change my mind once I have.
If you want to play verbal tennis find another opponent.
And it may be worth your while getting a racket with some strings.
Call me Bogan, Oca, anything you like but if you wish to hurt? call me snob.

TurnRightThenLeft, DD.
Both you seem to have missed my point. Read the question THAT is the point add to that the obvious what do we do about it.
What is in a name, I agree the name is merely means of opening a discussion on the plight of an increasing number of people. If you like the question could have been “how do we re-establish equity and motivation for all citizens.” But that sounded too esoteric and people would have demanded definitions which would have destroyed the purpose. I wanted to get people to think about the inequity and its effects and as stated what to do about it.
DD, I get that you don’t like my prose… sorry about that. I think the issue is way more important than my Dickensian literary style.
The example given was to show an attitude a tangible disregard for others particularly the sick. Years on the front line in crisis intervention I’ve learned to question why more people are inclined to display antisocial attitudes (behave as having chips on their shoulders). Yes every area and demographic has problems. But it is undeniable (see local police stats) that there are concentrations in certain areas. Not too far from where I live an estate ‘nick named the Gaza Strip’ which has 14X more police call outs than surrounding areas…Why? This is clearly not good, more importantly what can we do about it.
Clearly I don’t like pigeon holing of people and problems as that tends to ignore because fixing them is too hard, too expensive and doesn't involve enough votes. Historically this is something we as a society we do at our peril.
I wonder why the criticism of the minutia, the messenger or my wording. I ask that you concentrate on the donut not the hole

Examinator,

Thanks for bringing up this thread - I think it is an important issue and was glad to see it getting an airing.

However, I don't think we're getting any further now - the last couple of pages have not advanced any particular theories.

As others have said, you initiate some great discussions. See you on the next one.

"DD, I get that you don’t like my prose… sorry about that. I think the issue is way more important than my Dickensian literary style.
The example given was to show an attitude a tangible disregard for others particularly the sick."

No worries old chap, and congratulations as it seems you will get your funding [from us the taxpayer] to survey bogans [but I get the impression from the mod with the nod it may be sanitised away from your Dickensian lingo to "Do we really know the truth about Gen-B?"

I realise your chosen path in life is to bleed the taxpayer dry as one more quango/NGO, but as the greatest of all white collar crooks Miles Massey says, "that's his job, we must respect that", so I hope you respect my self appointed job as a whistle blower.

as said before I am like that Columbo bloke so like a dog with a bone till pieces all fit, so "oh just one more thing OP" .. why WERE you FORCED to be in bogan city if you despise and verbally abuse bogans?

and just what abuse was visited upon you [apart from a few fvcks flying around the ward]. Surely your mummy told you to put your pinkies in your ears

DD,
Just a few points of clarification.
First point, it was an emergency and internal health department transfers from the local hospital that put me in that hospital not by choice.
Secondly The violence that took place was more than the odd obscene word it was a tirade of violent language and behaviour in the other one case a man belted a female…I don’t know about you to me this is more than some obscure PC breach.
Thirdly I was bloody sick the hospital was monitoring me on an hourly basis while pumping massive doses of antibiotics. Because of the acute infection an emergency operation would have been life threatening, ICU which was full.
To most people a ward in a hospital is hardly the place to express one’s antisocial violent tendencies.
You obviously missed my concern/intention was to address a serious social issues NOT my discomfort. I am only interested in genuine practical solutions
Fourthly my experience on the front line dealing with crisis intervention the current problems are both intergenerational and increasing.
Next I am from this same resentful catastrophe prone background and have chosen to use my professional privileges/power to try and minimumize the issues that hold others back. I left school at 16 and over a lifetime I’ve put myself through Uni and Tafe to gain my doubled major degree and an advanced diploma.
NB None of this makes me superior or a saint but it does render me as qualified to comment and strive for solutions.
I’m not sure if my ability to explain is here or perhaps you have a personal agenda (chip on your shoulder). I would suggest that this site is a chat site not one for resolving personal issues or ill informed ad hominem attacks. I try to take everyone at face value and I rarely confuse public and private interest. I would suggest you follow more than one post before you lash out.

examinator the thread was a good one thanks, doubt we can give it another life but you could try again in another thread.
We do need to look for answers, not worth progressing the DD thing I am unable to find a reason for all that anger.
thanks well done.

Dear examinator,

I'm coming in on the tail end here,
but I have been following all the posts
with interest.

Thanks from me as well, oh wise one.
You do give us all, much to think about.

And, as I've said previously - I'm
grateful to have you as a poster
on this Forum. You're blessed not only
with intellect but a big heart as well.

A rare combination.

"Next I am from this same resentful catastrophe prone background and have chosen to use my professional privileges/power to try and minimumize the issues that hold others back."

No No No my little Maelstromic OP

You never, never, ever, talk to being "privileged" in what you, the Cafe Latte or Chattering Classes [herein CC], call our Egalitarian Society.

The whole concept of being Egalitarian talks to ALL people being equal. Of course that is BS, espec in USA but at least they got the MARKETING correct with "My Fellow Amurikins".

But you did not have to CLAIM you are "elite" [in your mind] as you said it all in your Maiden OP Speech on Bogans, or rather it was what you DIDN'T say, eg not a word about the medical staff who saved your lousy life and probably hate working in Bogan City but do it because they are professional [which you are not, obviously].

And what of little Bogan kiddies, deprived of a bed in THEIR hospital because your "egalitarianism" dictated that you jumped the queue and parked your carcass in one of the valuable beds.

So a man hit a BoganButtercup? Well now these people live life "on the egde" and contrary to popular myths by CC about Toxic Masculinity, DeadBeat Dads etc, there is usually a reason and might I suggest that as the REAL facts say thousands of toddlers admitted to hospital are victims of MBP Murder [a female only malady of the mind] that this could well have been such a case [blamed on SIDS of course].

But back to your proposed waste of taxpayer money on yet another stupid study, I was really chuffed in 1999 when Sir Robert Norman [RIP] himself wrote a personal reply to one of my learned Lettuce to the Editor regarding this self same issue with indiginous folk. He wholeheartedly agreed with me that the more "academics" study "races" [to use the pre PC meaning of the word, which includes bogans] then the more they become museum pieces and lose their identity, AND their self respect.

to be continued

continued

And so it is that my CHOSEN location is Mossman FNQ which you would call not only call Bogan City but Bongo City as half population is black, and as Sir Robert and I agree, they are the "privileged" people in town. As a result of 100 years of being studied and getting every handout known to man they have no reason/incentive to work so most are regretably lined up outside the Royal [as it was] at 10 AM waiting for it to open and driving their new 4WD to the next pub soon after.

BUT for all that financial gain via 100 years of CCs, as Sir Robert explained to me "these are the most self effacing people on the planet", and as you pass them in the street they look downwards, never catching your eye.

But hey, as Robert Plant says, there is some good news and at no cost to the taxpayer. I tried a little experiment and said G'day as I passsed some of my black brothers. The reaction was one of huge surprise and maybe "yeah, yeah"

BUT, having slept on it, they did not forget you so next time you pass the eyes are at your level and it is "How ya going Bro?" and leading to deeper conversations in future.

As I say I wasted the best 20 years of my life, like Cleese, as a North Shore SNAG, attending dinner parties with corpses chattering about the most tedious matters [like those in this thread]. My new black bros have taught me some real life skills like how to detect croc tracks on the beach [so as to not get eaten by a croc], and I have to say that is far more important to me than 20 years of "conversations with corpses"

So leave bogans alone, be brave, and do a study on MBP and save some kiddies from murder

Divorce Doctor

I would be applauding your spirited defence of Bogans and hanging my head in shame for associating with those evil 'chattering classes', if it weren't for the defamatory remarks of yours directed towards another minority group on this thread and now thankfully no more than a bad memory.

So next time you care to jump up on your soapbox and lecture others about their supposed atttitudes of superiority towards disadvantaged groups, you'd be wise to recall that old saying about removing the beam from your own eye first before worrying about the mote in anyone else's

Divorce Doctor,

You a SNAG? Who would have thought...
From your constant rebukes about 'Cafe Lattee's'
et al, I would never have guessed.

As for talking to 'corpses.' I can identify
with that, I think we all can. It happens
in all circles. But, gee whiz, it does take
two, to have a conversation, and sometimes it
is a question of finding a subject that's of
interest to you both.

Still, I'm happy for your 'epiphany,' with 'bogans.'

I had some pre-conceptions about 'bikie gangs.'
Until I went to get a tattoo on my ankle (Birthday
present from my son). The tattoo parlour was full
of bikies, waiting for their turn. And, while I waited
along side these guys, we got to talking. Well, they
couldn't have been more fun. They even helped me
choose my tattoo (a colourful butterfly), and after
wards they asked me to join them at the pub next door,
where they shouted me to a drink.

So there you go.

I guess this just proves your, and Bronwyn's point.
Labelling people and making pre-judgements is not
a good idea. Because it all goes out the window,
once these people become real, and you actually get
to know them.