Daggett and PALE, have you not yet learned that unless your moral philosophies come within Yabby's very limited compass, you are at best "away with the fairies" or at worst deluded?

Yabby, you still do not seem to be able to tell me why the live export industry would have a problem with cramming hundreds of thousands of border collies on ships to China. There really is no difference between that and sending sheep, cows, goats, camels and deer to the Middle East and other parts of Asia. The herbivore/carnivore argument means nothing to the Chinese, and clearly there's a market for it. You have just said it is your personal preference not to do so, but have given no substantive reason why not. Animal abuse is animal abuse regardless of the species - or what it eats.

Why do you make the blanket assumption that it is "women in the cities who breed and flog off dogs"? So far as I know it is not a gender-specific activity. This from the man who was too irresponsible to have his dog/s neutered and was talking about putting puppies down (how many did you finish up knocking on the head?).

And Yabby, I'm afraid you really cannot claim to have conducted proper, peer-reviewed studies on sheep intelligence - unless, of course, you can provide links to your research papers on the subject (speaking of deluded).

Nicky

Ah Nicky, but you are going from the assumption that eating other
species is abuse. I disagree with you. It is not for me to say
if the Chinese should or should not eat dogs.

What I am saying is that species differ in their requirements
and what might not be the correct environment for Nicky or
a dog, might be perfect for a sheep or some other species. You cannot
treat them all the same, when they are distinctly different.

On a ship, the basic requirments of a sheep are met, as they are
mentally umcomplicated creatures, unlike yourself or perhaps dogs
too. Experts would have to decide that, qualified people in the
field and people with experience.

Why on earth would I want to write peer reviewed papers? I don't
need a job lol. Neither do I have the need to impress anyone or
have the desire to climb up the ladder at any public institution,
by gaining a few brownie points for each paper.

That does not mean that I am not scientifically minded and do my
own experiments. They are meant for my benefit. Get yourself
a pet lamb and do your own experiments if you wish. You'll soon
notice that having a lamb running around the kitchen is a bit
different to a puppy.

Yabby Nicky

There is no need for any more research about the live animal trade. It’s disappointing to come back and see we have slipped back to this. It was was done to death on olo years ago.

Now can we move on pls take it RSPCA have campaigned for years to have live exports diverted to chilled and perhaps examine why the Government have ignored them.

It is in this area you will find Yabby doesn’t want to venture Nicky.

He doesn’t want any proof that FF, MLA Austrade AQIS and the State and Federal Governments push bully block and make sure their friends within the industry are allowed to continue.

He doesn’t want to acknowledge the fact that obviously dealing with Muslim leaders and oversees contacts we might have dealt on a higher level then just as a single semi retired farmer in WA.

He doesn’t want to discuss the call from the head of MLA in the Middle East and what was said about competition to live exports- any competition.

He doesn’t want to discuss the difficulties involved with reopening plants here.

Of course he must know of some of these problems as he said – If the Government cut the red tape to abattoirs in Australia.

That’s right Yabby- The red tape that was put in place in favour of the live animal trade for friends involved in this cruel industry.

I note you didn’t have the balls to answer the question-
Are you calling me a liar Yabby?
You will do anything rather than debate MLA AWB Landmark with me.

Wont You. Would you like me to post just a couple of lines on ‘research’ into Elders or AWB etc?
That might be interesting ah.

Yabby is very good at answering only what he wants to really. He failed to address the substantive part of my question; that being why his much loved trade baulks at sending dogs to China. Working on the general free market philosophy if there is a market there you supply it. He also hasn't responded to my question about how many of his puppies he had put down/knocked on the head because he is too irresponsible to have his dog/s neutered (unless he profits from them too)

BTW, PALE, no debate is closed until all participants agree that it is.

The trade has no compunction about sheep, cattle, camels, goats, deer and camels, why stop there? Greyhounds are exported to Macau and the Philippines (where they are also partial to dog meat). Dogs require the same as sheep and cattle on such voyages - food, water and shelter (which the animals currently exported receive in varying degrees - including from all weather conditions to suffocation).

Perhaps either Yabby or PALE can enlighten us about the so called "red tape". A bit of a look into the favoured treatment AQIS gives the live export trade over the meat trade might be a good place to start - the live trade costs AQIS very little, since they appear to rarely attend loadings at Fremantle at least, and when they are called and shamed into it they do not even do inspections. That could be a bit of a clue.

It would be interesting to get to the bottom of the reported detentions of the dirty ships in Portland and Adelaide too.

Reports in WA suggest that the blessing of the cattle on the "Maysora" caused the odd ripple in the trade though. Bring it on!

Nicky

*because he is too irresponsible to have his dog/s neutered *

Deary me Nicky, your area of expertise is showing once again, ie
commenting about things which you have absolutaly no knowledge or
understanding. Ignorance is clearly bliss in Nicky's world!

If you have a sensational dog and would like to keep the genetic
line going, it makes perfect sense not to sterilise that dog.

The fact that I had intentions of finding my dog a suitable, eligible
partner in the next 2-3 years, had perhaps not even occured to you.

Back to your economics question. In a free market it makes
absolutaly no sense to breed dogs in Australia and ship them
to China for meat, as the Chinese can clearly breed them much
cheaper themselves. Growing any carnivore for food however, does
not make alot of sense, due to the food conversion rates.

Sheep and dogs certainly are different and would be different on
a ship. Dogs generally do not like to defecate in their own nests
for instance, for sheep its not a problem, they do so naturally and
in the paddock.

As to AQIS, again you girls know nothing, so comment from ignorance.
The laws governing what happens in meatworks are dependant on
international agreements that overseas markets have with Australia.
If we don't comply with EU, US laws etc, they deny us access to
their meat markets. That includes their inspectors inspecting our
plants, to see that they meet their standards. That is why it
is so complex to obtain registration of export plants. Not
because of any conspiracy theories.

*Perhaps either Yabby or PALE can enlighten us about the so called "red tape".*

Well I for one couldn`t agree more Nicky.

Beyond any doubt that is the most sensible thing you have said.
Ok Yabby will you be fair and tell her what we mean by cutting the red tape?
I cant see why not. I am interested to know if you will do that.

I will wait until I see your reply to Nickys question as to what we mean by cutting the Government cutting the red tape before I comment.

I am interested TBO if you will reply.
I do recall you made some attempt several months ago to explain the red tape however as Nicky is now asking the right questions will you try again?