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The Forum > General Discussion > Selective perceptions of animal cruelty

Selective perceptions of animal cruelty

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The Australian community is quite rightly sickened and shocked by the torture, mutilation and brutal slaying of a 7-month old fox-terrier puppy near Mackay in Queensland. 'Hardened' police officers were described as being 'visibly shaken' by video footage of the incident.

The puppy's nose, one ear, right foreleg and rear left leg were cut off, it was cut open from neck to tail, and it was decapitated. A pair of garden shears and a pocket knife were used to torture and kill the puppy. This incident has been described as the worst in Australia's history.

Not that long ago, we saw video footage of another animal being similarly butchered. In this incident, the animal first had his throat hacked open, then the torturer severed the lower portion of his foreleg. As the animal pulled back its stump, the man reached for the next leg. Finally the belly of the still conscious animal was sliced open.

This was an Australian animal, a Victorian sheep in Kuwait, and as Animals Australia has proven time and time again, is routine treatment of Australian animals in importing countries. It is called a 'celebration', that particular 'celebration' being the opening of a jewellery store. It was watched with great enthusiasm by groups of locals including children. Australian animals in their millions have been, and continue to be, treated as badly or worse because we keep sending them, knowing this to be true. Cattle have their eyes stabbed, and leg tendons slashed to disable and disorient them. Think for a moment about the agony of these animals.

Our inconsistency in how we feel about this should concern us all as a society.

If we regard the torture of the puppy in Queensland as sickening and abhorrent, should we not view the level or torture inflicted upon the animals we send to the Middle East and SE Asia with equal disgust? The Australian government, which we elected to represent our views as a society, continues relentlessly to promote this disgraceful trade.

Is this what we want the world to understand are our views on extreme animal abuse?
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 30 October 2008 6:21:17 PM
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Nicky, we most definitely should stand up for the basic principles of the decent treatment of animals that we export.

But there are complicating factors such as relationships with countries that accept live exports and with losses incurred by the producers of live exports and the communities they live in if the trade with certain countries was suddenly stopped or reduced.

We’re not in a really good position to demand that our exported animals be treated humanely…are we?
Posted by Ludwig, Thursday, 30 October 2008 10:11:50 PM
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But Ludwig, at what point do we draw a moral line in the sand? Our animals will not be treated like that if we don't send them. Nothing has changed in three decades of this trade. Evidence has proven that during the live export embargo on animals to Saudi Arabia, the trade in frozen meat tripled. When the government was forced to stop sending sheep to Egypt, that country also increased its imports of frozen meat, and did not import more live animals from other sources.

The AMIEU puts direct job losses in recent years as a result of the live export trade at 40,000. Furthermore, as far back as 2000, the Heilbron report observed that the live export trade could be costing Australia around $1.5 billion in lost GDP, and around $270 million in household income. Add to that indirect jobs in rural and regional centres where meat processing was the only, or the major employer.

Did the "producers" care any more about that than they do about the egregious cruelty to which these animals are subjected? Realistic estimates of the jobs provided by this sector are about 3,000, because most of the jobs claimed in the industry-sponsored reports would continue to exist without the export factor.

But I agree with you, Australia has much to be ashamed of in terms of animal welfare in this country, while "producers" place animal welfare a distant last, trucking animals across the country, for a few extra bucks, in all weather conditions just for slaughter. Add to that the intensive farming of pigs, meat chickens and battery hens and feedlots.

But we have to start somewhere, and that should be with what is arguably the worst animal abuse to which the Australian government turns a blind eye, and that is sending live animals on horror journeys to face the most brutal, savage cruelty in handling and slaughter. At the very least, we owe them some mercy in life and in death.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 30 October 2008 10:37:39 PM
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In the book of genesis it tells us that man was given the job of tending Gods great garden . Part of that job description was to look after the animals but Adam was warned not to eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil For on that day he would die {Separation from his father} . All people need their fathers love . Logic will tell you that a garden tended with the motivation of love blooms . When people are without direction idle hands make much mischief . Knowledge of God brings purpose and direction to a lost world but the god of this world " satin " has as his job discription to rid the world of the knowledge of God . Severer punishments don't change the heart people only follow while they are dominated . Jesus said these words "how can satin cast out satin" .Without a change of heart man will NEVER EVER reach his true destiny which is to be the best you that you are . Paul put it eloquintly in Romans 7 - 19 "for the good that I would , I do not : but the evil that I would not.That I do ." So without a change of direction , turning around , running to instead of from {repenting} God the condition of this world can only get worse . If you live in a chook house and you eat chook food that doesn't make you a chook . If you convince yourself that you are a chook I am sorry but that still doesn"t qualify you as the only thing that qualifys you is if you are born of the chook species. So knowledge will not change the situation , Domination only changes the situation while the pressure is on . The only real change comes with a change of heart which is impossible for man BUT thanks be to God nothing is impossible for him . The result or effect is not the problem and without short circuting the problem continues
Posted by Richie 10, Friday, 31 October 2008 6:09:27 AM
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Nicky, I can't think of anything else to add, other than that I agree with you all the way.

Cheers
Posted by Ludwig, Friday, 31 October 2008 6:47:41 AM
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Deary me, our same old animal liberationist, who thinks we should
not be farming livestock in the first place, repeats the same
old mantras, like a broken record, again and again. We have
been through these things point for point. You have been proven
wrong point for point.

Nicky, its time that you put up or shut up. If you want animals
slaughtered in Australia, so buy them and slaughter them in
Australia. They are for sale to you or anyone else.

Fact is that this year's Hajj lambs to Saudi did not even come
from Australia, but from Somalia, as they were cheaper.

Sending thousands of West Australian farmers broke, because you
have some wierd notion of "sending messages", is just not an
option.

Fact is, if you want to address animal welfare in the ME, then work
in the ME and address it. Farmers are the only ones spending their
levies on improving animal welfare in the ME, ie they are actually
doing something. You OTOH and doing little but sitting by
your computer, trying to play politics. If it sends thousands
of farmers broke, well that is just too bad, in your opinion.

Sorry dear, its not going to work.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 October 2008 9:41:45 AM
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I know this discussion is not really about the puppy but it irks me that the judiciary or legislature go so light on animal cruelty which they have the power to offer some deterance against.

When the puppy case came up they mentioned the highest punishment ever awarded and it was not high. Anyone who does something dramatic like dragging a kitten behind a car or sadistically cutting up a puppy irrespective of any real or imagined excuses they might put forward should serve some time in jail that is a reasonable approximation of the maximum sentence.

If the law gives a low maximum sentence eg. 2-3 years jail which would almost require a magistrate to give a small fine for a first offence then parliament needs to raise it. If the maximum sentence is high then magistrates should meet community expectations and stop inviting people to misbehave with their light punishments.
Posted by mjpb, Friday, 31 October 2008 11:03:26 AM
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Thanks, Ludwig, and Richie for your input.

Yabby, I'm not even going to go there with your tired old arguments. You know and we know that none of what you claim is true. Think diversification. If other factors than the moral one prevent the farming of livestock, are you all going to squeal just as loudly? Your rhetoric is the usual MLA mantra - do you ever have an original thought in your head? No-one believes for a second that the 'poor WA farmers' will go broke - they get far too many handouts for that. Nor is it they who are making the real money, that's how dumb they are.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 31 October 2008 11:19:40 AM
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*You know and we know that none of what you claim is true.*

On the contrary, the evidence is very much on my side and has
convinced virtually all Governments, and 45'000 farmer members
of MLA. They employ the animal welfare specialists on the ground
in the ME, they are on the ships, or at the dock.

They also are aware of the agenda of a few vegan animal
liberationists like yourself, who distort the data to try
and hoodwink the public, who can't be expected to understand
the complex issues involved. You remind me of the many
religious extremists on OLO, repeating the same bible quotes
and mantras, over and over again. Animal liberation is
your ideology, as religion is theirs. Fair enough, but don't
confuse it with the truth.

*No-one believes for a second that the 'poor WA farmers' will go broke - they get far too many handouts for that.*

Funny then, that due to lack of profitability, the Australian
sheep flock has halved and even with present prices, huge numbers
of farmers have had to leave the land. You clearly don't have
the foggiest about agro economics.

Now what subsidies have been paid to Western Australian farmers,
as distinct from Eastern States farmers? I remind you, most live
exports are from WA. Check your facts please.

Endless rhetoric and endless new posts about the live trade, might
be what political science tells you is good politics, but you cannot
hide from the truth.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 October 2008 1:12:05 PM
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Why not? You do. Is there any reason why WA farmers should get more handouts that those in the Eastern states? Is there any reason why farmers should get the handouts that other industries don't get?

Since you are so well-informed, please provide the following data:-

How many Australian veterinarians are employed in animal welfare in:
Bahrain, Oman, Qatar, the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Israel, Egypt, Eritrea and any other Middle Eastern country which imports Australian animals

The precise number of Australians employed in animal welfare in those countries.

The accredited qualifications (name and level of qualification and issuing institution) of those people

The content of the training programs supposedly being delivered,and who is responsible for translating them into the relevant language, also what qualification is being issued to the trainee animal abusers.

The number of training programs supposedly completed and the numbers of "trainees"

Until you can, you are simply repeating the mantra of MLA. And throwing religious fanaticism into the mix, as always, is totally irrelevant to this debate.

mjpb, you are absolutely right, the penalties handed down by the courts for the most appalling cruelty in Australia are simply pitiful and no deterrent at all. As an example, a transporter managed to kill more than 350 wild goats on a marathon 65 hour journey to live export from Bourke in NSW to the Northern Territory. He was fined about $15.00 per goat. The Australian Standards for the Export of Livestock, and the transport of livestock within Australia, is almost wholly unmonitored and unenforced. Yabby would try and tell you otherwise, but if you visit the Animals Angels (Australia) website, you will find the true picture.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 31 October 2008 1:35:12 PM
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Dear Nicky,

I feel that most sane people are against
animal cruelty. How can we not be?

But what I want to know is what can the
ordinary person do about it?

We do need strong legislation. We do need
stronger laws to be put in place for those
that commit vile acts against defenceless
animals. But apart from writing to your
Members of Parliament, emailing the PM,
what else do you suggest can be done?

I've done all of the above on many occasions,
yet feel that no much was achieved by it.

A public outcry is necessary. Just as Australia
won't accept domestic violence, it should not
accept violence against animals. That is a message
that our politicians need to understand, loud and
clear.
Posted by Foxy, Friday, 31 October 2008 1:42:55 PM
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*Is there any reason why WA farmers should get more handouts that those in the Eastern states?*

Ah, but that is where you are shown to be ignorant. WA farmers
generally don't get the handouts that are paid in the ES. They
generally paddle their own canoes. So for you to speak of handouts
stopping farmers going broke, is complete hogwash, based on
your ingnorance.

If you want exact details of how MLA spends the millions of $
on animal welfare in the ME, ask MLA. They after all, represent
tens of thousands of farmer members. They pay the qualified
experts, you are free to bother to inform yourself.

Have you read their latest Annual report? I doubt it.

Nicky, a fanatic is a fanatic, similar mind processes take place.
They repeat the same old mantras, no matter what the evidence,
they raise the issues again and again, they lack any kind of ability
for rational debate or examing a topic from a number of angles or
thought patterns. The religious are fanatics, just like you are.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 31 October 2008 1:54:27 PM
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Why? It all goes back to the root of the present crime wave and of the crime waves that are coming in gigantic proportions.

Western civilisation is crumbling because The Bible was taken out of schools, as was the cane.

Thus we have a generation devoid of a rock solid foundation based on immovable moral standards... and respect for elders.
Posted by Gibo, Friday, 31 October 2008 2:04:44 PM
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Nicky, as a retired old bloke, I live in somewhat less comfort than I could, if I moved to town. But I am still here so my kids old show jumpers can live out their time in comfort.

I love animals, but while armed robbers, who stick a gun in some poor service station attendants face get a suspended sentence, you are whistling in the wind on penalties. When drug addicts, & drunks, who kill people with a car they should not be driving, avoid jail time, your poor little dog doesn't get a look in, my book.

Until we the public, get to elect our judges, no penalties will fit the crime.

When it comes to sheep, why does it matter to you, where they were breed. Do Ozy sheep feel pain more than other sheep. An attack on WA farmers does nothing for thousands of sheep in the ME.

If you want to stop these practices, go & do so. If you won't do that, its just another meaningless rant at Ozy producers, from a pretty gutless activist.
Posted by Hasbeen, Friday, 31 October 2008 3:57:02 PM
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Nicky
I agree we are selective when it comes to animal cruelty. As you say, most of us would react in horror at the torture of a puppy or 'pet' but when it comes to livestock it does not create the same sense of outrage.

Maybe it is because pets are perceived as man's friend and something that is there for our enjoyment hence we show compassion. While sheep are seen purely in terms of business and profit.

It is a form of selective humanity and pretty selfish when you think about it.
Posted by pelican, Friday, 31 October 2008 7:43:32 PM
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Nicky,
i will tell you the same as I told Pale, on the other thread. The only way to stop live exports is to have the stock slaughtered here.

Now abbatiors have closed and investors won't put up funds to reopen or build new facilities simply because it is not viable. Have you asked the question as to why live exporters can pay much more to farmers that mutton suppliers can. Are mutton suppliers making a huge profit? I think not. Mutton suppliers cannot match the prices offered by live exporters simply because they cannot, and stay viable.

A few facts. The economic life of sheep is about 5 years, after which their incisor teeth fall out or are worn out. If kept longer they will die of starvation, being unable to eat. Farmers have to dispose of them before then, while they are in good condition. Therfore a farmer has to sell about 20% of his sheep each year. Either breeding or buying replacements. Last figures I saw was that the sale of these sheep ammounted to 30-40% of his income. He has no alternative but to sell for the best price he can get.

Much of the sheep industry is on country that is unsuitable for other enterprizes so there is no alternative to wool/sheep growing.

It is not other taxpayers funds that are used by various government agencie for improvrments to overseas handling/training facilities. It all comes from levies that farmers and other industry interests pay to do this. So don't critisize farmers for taking the best possible price for stock he has to sell or suggest ordinary taxpayers are subsidizing the industry.

If I,or Yabby, can see reason to dispute what you claim then,you are really doing yourself a disservice by lowering your credability.

You raise the puppy's cruelty to eke sympathy from people. It has nothing to do with the subject. I call it the Bambi factor.
Posted by Banjo, Friday, 31 October 2008 7:50:52 PM
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Actually, Banjo, it's called speciesism. Some animals are definitely more equal than others. Some are fortunate enough to be under our tables not on them in pieces, and share our homes, others are regarded as commodities, and only worth consideration in terms of their dollar value. So we treat them in grossly cruel ways that we would not tolerate for a minute our "pets". Yes, I object to that. We owe them a merciful life and a merciful death if that has to be the case, and there is nothing merciful about putting them on ships for 3-4 weeks and sending them to butchers half-way across the world

And really, how smart is Australia? There is plenty of evidence that these countries are importing Australian animals, processing them, and exporting the meat to other countries. Middle Eastern importers also on-sell them to other countries. If you want to think on the macro, rather than just the simple micro level, think millions in lost GDP.

And if it is farmers' funds that are being put into "animal welfare" in importing countries (the greatest con of all), where is Tony Burke getting all the money the government claims to be "investing" in this, if not from the taxpayer? Like I said - they have no right to put this shame on MY conscience.

Hasbeen, I hear what you're saying too, but this has to start somewhere. There was a post at one of the WA newspapers from a Middle Eastern contributor, who clearly stated that Australian animals DO suffer more than the "domestic" animals in the Middle East because they are treated far worse (and are more terrorised). At least if millions less Australian animals are being sent there, they are being "processed" (gotta love the euphemism for slaughter) here, and it's a beginning. At the times Australia has stopped sending animals (Saudi Arabia in the 1990's and 2003-4, and sheep to Egypt in the last year) frozen meat imports have risen dramatically.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 31 October 2008 10:03:55 PM
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It is disturbing to note that the detractors on this thread refuse to acknowledge the cruelty perpetrated on commercial animals and continue to use dismissive phrases to gag any criticism on live exports.

It is equally disturbing to find seemingly educated people displaying bullying, suppressive and unevolved attitudes in the face of the indisputable proof of cruelty to these animals.

I am amazed that the same people expect to use my tax dollar to support a trade whose main ingredient for viability is animal brutality.

Today’s West published an article advising that the Federal government proposes to cease aid to farms worth more than $3 million dollars

The vociferous WA Pastoralists and Graziers Association attacked the proposed $3 million benchmark and astonishingly, spokesman Edgar Richardson bragged in protest, “Three million dollars is a back paddock for some people.”

Hasbeen is clearly ill-informed when he accuses Nicky of selectively attacking WA farmers over live exports. Rest assured the objections to live exports and long distance haulage of live animals is resonating around the world. Ordinary people from many nations are speaking out in defence of these hapless animals. In a recent survey, nearly 90% expressed their disgust at this trade yet Hasbeen and Banjo maintain a blinkered view, quashing and diminishing any comment on the subject.

Banjo claims “much of the sheep industry is on country that is unsuitable for other enterprizes (sic) so there is no alternative to wool/sheep growing.” I can only assume that his knowledge of Australia’s ecology is extremely poor. The desecrated condition of these lands is a direct result of grazing invasive sheep and cattle. With remediation, these lands have many alternative uses.

Whilst both Banjo and Hasbeen believe animal cruelty is good, the Garnaut Report states that Australia needs to move away from growing export animals and meat products under the carbon mitigation scenarios.

The feeble attempts by those with vested interests, to discourage and make people feel powerless will fail. An educated and informed public will not tolerate cowards who are disposed to inflicting pain on defenceless animals.

.
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 1 November 2008 1:22:50 AM
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Yes Nicky, Tony Burke did chip a million $ of Govt money towards
the farmer campaign to improve animal welfare in the Middle East.
Good on him, for anyone concerned about animal welfare should be
thrilled. Clearly you don't care about ME animals, or you would
be thrilled too.

Given that Govts spent 110 million $ to bring the pope here, to
which I strongly objected, I think money spent on animal welfare
is a much better, sadly it was only 1 million.

If you or anyone else thinks that millions are being lost in GDP,
you are free to buy those livestock and slaughter them here. It
is not unreasonable that the farmer who produced the livestock,
should get a share that allows him to make a living and feed the
family. Nobody is stopping you from slaughering animals right here,
right now. Go ahead!

What we do object to is you trying to use politics, to force WA
farmers to sell to a captive market at any price and write off
150 million $ a year, due to your pet theories, which are unsubstantiated.
Then, if farmers go broke in the process, that
suits your agenda in the first place. Think again!

When the Saudi market was closed and that was only Saudi, the price
of sheep collapsed and hundreds of thousands had to be trucked
East, for thousands of Km. It was that or dig pits for them.
You might not care about those little problems but I certainly do.

I've given away a truckload of sheep before, as it was cheaper then
shooting them, so I know the consequences of your intended actions.

Fact is that on any given weekend, tens of thousands of Australian
hobby farmers regularly slaughter their own sheep and lambs.
If you think that things are much different to what happens in the
ME, you know zilch about the Australian countryside. Their legs
are tied and their throats are cut.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 1 November 2008 1:29:58 PM
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Hi All


Yes God 'is' watching

Ludwig,
Re your comment
*We’re not ....=
Better position than you think.

Rudd promised two things.

1. To invest 40 billion dollars into infrastructure.

2 To increase intake of migrants.



It isn’t true Muslims require animals alive.

A few months ago meeting to discuss animal welfare was hosted on the Gold Coast. They flew in Muslim reps from overseas.

As Australian Muslim leaders, lodged subs, to the Senate enquiry for Animal Welfare, you would have to wonder, why they brought in outsiders.?



Australian Muslim leaders also put out media releases ‘pleading’ with the Government and ‘media’ to report the reasons for live exports ‘honestly’

It’s not hard to start reopening abattoirs to slaughter here.

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Yabby

Tony Burke has zero knowledge on farming. Nor does his advisor. Now Kerry Obrion told the Australian public they received more letters about live exports from the Australian public than any other issue.

That was at the time supported by Rudd.

At times you say, you have written 'long' letters, to voice opinions to Government that they should stop blocking plants with red tape through MLA to reopen abattoirs.

You claim the biggest problem for farmers in Australia is lack competition to fletchers. I agree.

Then you say there is nothing wrong with sending off all our raw material.

Well how on earth do you propose we fix the problem that (you pointed in the first place) if you then turn around and support the people shipping off our raw materials. Huh.

Australia is not such a desperate country we have to trade an extra twenty bucks a head to inflict enormous suffering to our own Animals.

Shame on anybody who support this vile trade. The trucking companies will just have to update to cold rooms.

Its time the Government told Landmark AWB Elders + few others to get off their greedy buts and invest in Australia or head for the high seas.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 2 November 2008 4:01:35 PM
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Hello Banjo
Always interested in your comments.
I wanted the opportunity to share with you some other factors you may not be aware of .

Investors ‘will’ put up funds to reopen facilities.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/
http://www.halaljournal.com/?page=article&act=show&pid=2443&PHPSESSID=bc7f8489b95

However they do require confidence in the Australian Government that they will be fair an offer equal support for the the red meat industry as well as live.

Kevin Rudd praised David Palmer while those others ask serious questions that arrogantly go unanswered


Pls read link to learn more about the unfairness of red verses live.
http://www.austbeef.com.au/

As well Banjo farmers don’t know how many times companies from Malaysia ME and other destinations have contacted FF and others to enquire as to how they can invest in abattoirs in Australia and meet the farmers . I do know.

The WA pasture group have tripped over themselves avoiding people like this and any contact from our company as well.
They are too busy looking after their protected interests and working with the live shipping agents.
All we have ever asked for is be treated the same as the live animal agents.
The rest will take care of itself.
MLA head Ian Ross personally called me from ME to inform me NOTHING would be put to the ME buyers that conflicted with live exports.
Mark Vaile as Minister of trade in his time used to personally arrange ship loads of live animals to Kuwait. Everybody knew that was his baby according to MLA.
So there you have it Banjo
Unfair treatment to the red meat industry Landmark AWB Elders MLA etc... Protect the Live shipping agents at all costs because they control the votes the political donations etc.

Isn`t that right Mr Rudd.

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 2 November 2008 4:41:09 PM
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*Now Kerry Obrion told the Australian public they received more letters about live exports from the Australian public than any other issue.*

So what if they received more letter? Any smart politician would
well be aware of the huge propaganda campaign, which includes letter
writing, being conducted and encouraged by vegans like Nicky etc.
Propaganda generated noise in no way equates to genuine concern,
it equates to much propaganda by a noisy few.

Of course we should export our raw materials, just as we should
process locally. There is not one market for any thing, there are
many markets. We export iron ore, we export coal, but we also export
steel.

We export lamb and we export mutton, but we also export live sheep.
There are all sorts of markets out there and there is no good reason
why they should not compete and pay attention to what clients want.
Forcing producers of any primary product to accept captive markets
where these are not exposed to competition, is all about idealogy,
not about good business practise.

If Govts want things processed locally, they are free to change
the conditions, like getting rid of red tape, etc, to do more
locally
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 2 November 2008 5:10:50 PM
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Selective perceptions ah Yabby.

Poor little lamb, you get yourself tied up in knots sometimes.

*Now Kerry O’Brien told the Australian public they received more letters about live exports from the Australian public than any other issue.*

Yes that is correct Yabby- That’s what he said along with Kevin Rudd.

I don’t know about politicians being too smart in general but if you think so I will take that onboard. (It will help us all to understand you)

Just to set the record straight. He said letters from the Australian public.


*Of course we should export our raw materials, just as we should
Process locally.*-

Yes I agree Yabby

*There is not one market for any thing, there are many markets*.
*We export iron ore, we export coal, but we also export
Steel.*
Your right again Yabby.

*We export lamb and we export mutton, but we also export live sheep*.

You’re correct again.

*There are all sorts of markets out there and there is no good reason
Why they should not compete and pay attention to what clients want.*

STOP - wrong.

There 'is a good reason not to treat our living creatures as commodities such as iron or coal. They are living feeling animals.

We should not just send whatever clients want. We have a moral obligation to living animals we breed. Also its untrue overseas wont take chilled bodies.

The only reason live exists is because of the live traders see no difference between iron coal or car tyres and live animals.

The only people forcing anybody is MLA driving the meat industry to favour live trade?

Give red meat a fair go. At least equal opportunities, like as you said, by cutting some red tape, to make it a fairer playing field, to allow skilled migrants in to train regional people for starters.
PROMOTE our wonderful country and invite some migrants and countries. to invest in value adding

Australia is NOT prepared for the challenges to come. We need to get away from Welfare.

Open regional and aboriginal areas and put factories, plants.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 2 November 2008 11:42:30 PM
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What seems to be a permanent blind spot with Yabby is that we are talking gross animal abuse here. A century or so ago, people trafficked in human animals, now people are trafficking in non-human animals in disturbingly similar conditions. Time, the international community and future generations will judge us for that.

Perhaps it is a measure of Yabby's intelligence that he thinks that there is an intelligent politician of his persuasion. Tony Burke and Kevin Rudd lurch from crisis to crisis trying to placate whichever sector in the community is the loudest. Unfortunately for Australian animals, that is the greedy farmers and exporters at this time, but if you read the commentaries at recent articles in the farming rags, you will see a pronounced and exponential change in community perceptions. Put simply, in your terms, Yabby, no-one believes any of the claptrap any more.

But having said that, I have no intention of going over the same tired old arguments (with Yabby) again; we have heard it ALL BEFORE!

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 3 November 2008 8:06:19 PM
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Hi Nicky

I feel a bit like the meat in the sandwich here
(No pun intended). You confuse farmers with in my opinion low life’s like Emanuel s Live Shipping agents Elders, Landmark, AWB = the dozens of other live animal shipping agents. These are NOT farmers. They are not even men.

Through our eyes we can’t do it without the Yabby’s of this world
.Pls hear me out.

Yabby’s correct when he says Animal Welfare
Groups do not understand the problems or what’s required to fix this.

The past Governments cleverly pitched animal welfare groups
Against farmers and visa versa... (The old saying united we stand- divided we fall).

‘Nothings changed.’

Governments never wanted farmers to have any independent support from the public or city folk.

That’s why Farmers Federation MLA Austrade etc supposedly to look after farmer’s interest. ‘yeh sure’
.
In truth the farmers were betrayed while our Government flooded the country, with cheap imports which much forced them into a single desk to sell their stock.
(A very cruel single desk).The world of the trade dollar- Live Animal Exports.)

Farmers are a loyal proud. Even today most old timers wouldn’t accept for eg- their hero Kerry Packer helped to sell them out.

In their trust when mans handshake was his word they followed blindly. They never asked the pertinent questions- (after all they were farmers) and left all that political mumbo jumbo to those strange men in the city called politicians.

So people like Kerry who brought plants and provided employment in regional areas were worshiped.

The sad truth was he along with others gained supply of stock, contacts, control ,helped by grants for regional -then closed plants leaving people unemployed unable to pay their mortgages or send their kids to school and wrote everything off as a tax loss- then picked up on trade dollars.

With the close ties of Howard Downer Vaile etc they worked with the shipping agents to take control.

We need all animal welfare groups to learn from farmers- talk with them- listen to them before we can criticise.

TBC
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 3 November 2008 9:51:07 PM
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Continued.


It took all long time, for the industry, and the Government, to get things the way they are.
It’s been many years, of political twists and turns. Mostly the victims have been the farmers, apart from of course the animals.

Remember in the beginning, it was the farmers, that blocked the trucks, and threw a few punches, protesting about the way animals were treated, and taking jobs from regional areas.

The then labour Government brought the army in. We city folk didn’t help them or support them in anyway. They didn’t stand a chance as we got on with our city lives.

Look what’s happening even now with Ms Wong and our farmer’s water.
Nicky if we allow the Rudd Government to chase off smaller farmers all our animals will be intensive and controlled by the cruel operators. You can forget free range.

The answer is to push Rudd to expand the regional areas supplying aboriginal and country people with infrastructure and let them hold ownership.

Chicken and pork will increase because of the world recession opening opportunities for Rudd to place migrants into regional areas with skilled labour trainers.

Even Lyn White stressed she didn’t blame all farmers but the live shipping agents and the Government for not stopping it and fazing it out with chilled meat only.

.The farmers are just as stuck as the animals and people like you and I.

Yabby gave you the answer Nicky

If Govts want things processed locally, they are free to change
The conditions, like getting rid of red tape, etc, to do more
Locally
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 2 November 2008 5:10:50 PM
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 3 November 2008 10:14:34 PM
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PALE, I am sure there are some farmers who do not subscribe to this cruelty. But there are COUNTLESS farmers who are breeding animals specifically for this trade (think specific types of sheep and cattle).

Where was the concern for the meat workers, and the businesses in regional towns where meat processing was the only, or the major employer? Their concern was for their own "get rich quick" ambitions, next year's SUV, and their ferals in boarding schools. Don't expect me to have any sympathy for them. And go under they will. It may take time, but it will happen. International pressure will help in this.

As I understand it from the latest media reports, Animals Australia is attempting to engage with farmers about this (personally, I think they're giving them to much credit, they would have to be on another planet not to know what goes on). The fact that they continue to breed the animals - FOR THIS MARKET, not for domestic purposes - is a clear indication of how little it matters to them.

These people - particularly in WA - have founded their businesses on amoral cruelty and greed, and for that they are being judged. Read the comments in the recent news articles in the various journals.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 3 November 2008 10:22:19 PM
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Nicky
They are breeding specifically to meet the requirements of buyers ‘Yes’
That’s no different, if you were running a dress shop for brides.


They are HAPPY to have them slaughtered here. All they want it some fair competition to be assured of ongoing secure prises.



It`s up to us to introduce new blood.

We will have our own Halal accredited farms that they will have to comply with – or loose their accreditation.



The Animals need people who care put in charge of making sure all accreditation requirements are followed.



*Where was the concern for the meat workers, .....

No no, Nicky. Abattoir work is very hard and the industry itself is tough.
Nobody gets rich quickly in meat works trust me. Of ‘course’ their concerns was for their kids just like the city slickers.


But Nicky ‘without these men’ animals will continue to go ‘alive.

It’s either help the farmers by ‘forcing~ the Government to cut the red tape’ making abattoirs in Australia viable or cop more live exports.

Most Australians would happily agree to pay a sub from their taxes to support slaughtering here as well.

They WONT win if they protest abattoirs and people eating meat.

I am absolutely delighted Animals Australia is going down that road (thanks for sharing.)



* The fact that they continue to breed the animals - FOR THIS MARKET, not for domestic purposes - is a clear indication of how little it matters to them.*

Nicky they don’t care which market there are sold into. Providing they get a FAIR price. The only reason they are not going domestic is the corruption IMO through AQIS who CONTROL the accreditation for export licences to protect their friends in the live shipping industry.

*These people - particularly in WA -....
Yes Nicky the companies owned with direct ties ARE Evil but here`s some good new from me now-

(You may laugh but spells were put on all people directly involved in live animal exports.

Over one hundred witches world wide took place-

The stone wall circle was used.( "The most powerful")

watch!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 3 November 2008 11:43:27 PM
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Attention: Animal groups + members of public.

Your presence required on 'open day' at the Dalby RSL November 19. The Labour State Government DPI Department to IMO promote Animal Cruelty with friends LANDMARK.

http://qcl.farmonline.com.au/news/state/livestock/cattle/investment-options-for-feedlotters/1350547.aspx?src=enews

It seems the DPI devlopment officer Grag Bath wants people to do their own research into the pros and 'CONS' of the feed lot industry.
Seminar presenters include:

John Malone (Landmark) –
David Brown (West Talgai Feedlot) –
Dr Kev Sullivan (Bell Vet Services) – Feedlot animal health and welfare.

Dr Rob Lawrence ??

Dr Matt George ??

Peter Robson for feedlot ration and liquid supplements for backgrounding operations.

Roger Sneath (DPI&F) – for feedlots.

Rob Taylor (Ausmeat) – Feedlot accreditation and Quality Assurance.

Mr Mitch Furness (DPI&F) – approval process.

Feedlots:

Feedlots are those areas in which cattle and sheep are held in close confinement and where food and drink must be artificially supplied.

* We dont see any RSPCA officers invited or Animal Welfare groups.*
http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/campaigns/policies/farmanimals.htm#feedlots

The RSPCA is 'opposed' to confinement of animals in circumstances that unreasonably restrict their movements and normal behavioural patterns that are of importance to that species.



RSPCA Australia does 'not' accept management procedures.



RSPCA QLD
RSPCA Australia demands that operation of feedlots should be thoroughly regulated
www.rspcaqld.org.au/campaigns/policies/farmanimals.htm - 58k -

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&cr=countryAU&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=rspca+feedlots&spell=1

PALE demands the government divert all feed lots to creek fed.

EVERY FEEDLOT Government assists in setting up via foriegn aid programe is another diversion of our jobs and tax payers funds that should be put into building our own value adding factories in Australia.
A urgent and dramatic reassesment of Australia livestock is called for NOW!
Australia requires far- sighted and brave political leaders, to stand up to powerful lobbies of vested interests.

Feedlots are just PLAIN CRUEL and uncalled for!


Any investors into feedlots MUST hear both sides of the story and FACTS from our vets and animal welfare groups!

Landmark must have put the DPI THROUGH THEIR INTENSIVE course and maybe Kevin Rudd to get away with this ah'.
A few words from one of the thousands now speaking out about LANDMARK=

http://www.teknoscape.com.au/forums/showthread.php?t=2918
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 4 November 2008 8:28:57 AM
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Sheesh, no wonder hardly anybody takes the animal welfare threads
seriously, this could be straight from Comedy Central!

Gerturde is turning to witchcraft to throw its magic spell,
whilst Nicky spews her bile of hatred for farmers, to make
it plain where she stands.

Never mind that sheep farmers earn less for their labour then
city slickers, never mind that they fight droughts, floods,
bushfires, market calamities, never mind that they generate
valueable exports to keep Australia afloat, Nicky hates them
as she clearly explains.

I've got a bit of news for you Nicky dear. Livestock have
been grazing grass and turning it into human food, for as
long as we can figure out and that is not about to change
tomorrow, for its as natural as night following day.

Fanatics like yourself, who simply don't understand the big
picture, can wish all you want, protest all you want, argue
all you want, sweet dreams, for that is all you will have.

No wonder that you are largely ignored by the large majority.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 4 November 2008 8:43:39 PM
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*No-one believes for a second that the 'poor WA farmers' will go broke - they get far too many handouts for that.*

Yabby, please explain this.
I commenced my first retail butchery in 1989 and sold lamb loin chops for $7 per kilo, F1/4 chops for $4 per kilo and legs for $6 per kilo. Farmers were fetching around $6 per lamb.

Today I sell lamb loins for $19 per kilo, F1/4 for $11 per kilo and legs for $11 per kilo, farmers sell lambs for around $60 per lamb on average.

So farmers are getting 10 times their 89 price while we are getting around 3 times our 89 prices. You tell me who is making the money?

Just for the record, I don't think anything should be exported alive, not fish, not prawns or meat. We have seen the decline of our stocks, both wild and farmed to the point where some industries are going broke. Now if that's good business then I'll eat my hat.
Posted by rehctub, Tuesday, 4 November 2008 9:15:17 PM
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*and legs for $6 per kilo. Farmers were fetching around $6 per lamb.*

And so rectub, you were selling 1 single kg of an 18-20kg lamb to
pay for the whole lamb. What a frigging ripoff!

Do you know what it costs to run a farm these days? I just bought
some DAP fertiliser for next year and at $1.50 a kg, its 50% more
expensive then mutton, which is worth around 1$ a kg in the WA
saleyards right now.

What do you do as a butcher? You smile at the housewife, make
a few wisecracks, chop up the lamb and get it out the door within
a very few days.

By contrast the farmer spends 12 months feeding the mother, feeding
the lamb, facing all sorts of climate calamities.

I remind you that the 3$ a kg that the producer is paid for that
lamb, will hardly buy a cup of coffee in the city.

What will you do for 3$ rectub? Will you nurture and grow a
kg of nutritious meat for over a year?

Nope, you will buy it for a song and flog it off for all that you
can get for it.

As we see above, you want a single kg of meat to pay for a whole
lamb, so you are generously giving the grower 5% of your takings.

Wow!
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 4 November 2008 9:39:46 PM
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No Yabby, you are engaging in your usual wild generalisations. I only despise cruel farmers, including those involved in the live export trade. And what makes you think that "city slickers" - or in fact anyone in employment today - do not face all sorts of threats to THEIR livelihood? No, of course, it's all about how tough FARMERS have it, handouts and all.

Not sure about the witchcraft stuff, or that last link PALE posted; I couldn't find anything there.

rehctub. nice to see you. I don't know a lot about meat prices, but as it happens I was passing a butcher's shop the other day, and I noticed prices like you mention. Your maths seem pretty right to me. Any notion of YOU making money seems to be offensive to Yabby though. Let's not forget that you have to pay staff, superannuation, infrastructure, WCI, payroll tax and any other incidentals that the government chooses to impose on you. Not so the live export trade though, it's pretty much clear profit all the way for them. No wonder they cry tears of blood when it's threatened. BTW - did anyone see the seven or eight pages of total claptrap, in glorious, living colour that the trade put out last week?

And you're right - nothing should be exported live. Except Yabby (and all those like him).

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 4 November 2008 9:47:19 PM
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And so rectub, you were selling 1 single kg of an 18-20kg lamb to
pay for the whole lamb. What a frigging ripoff!

Yes good point yabby, well it appears that way however 1 kilo today at say $19 equates to less than 20% of the cost of the lamb. Have you gone backwards like that?

Furthermore, my rent in 89 was $128/M2, today it is $1242/M2. So my rent alone has increased some 10 times and I have not even touched on the other costs, many of them as ‘additional costs’ conjured up post 89.

It seems the farmers aren’t the only ones raising their prices X 10 hey!

And, don’t forget, we don’t get handouts if your sheep die, or the drought/flood effects meat prices and or availability. I say again, ‘farmers are a protected species’ they get hand outs if it rains, hand outs if it doesn’t rain yet they have seen a 10 fold increase in their gross return on product during this timeframe.

The facts are plain and simple.

Live export rewards the grower, the transport companies and the agents. Where processing here rewards all of these plus thousands more who work in and rely on the local meat industry right from the guy who sweeps the processing floor to the kids raising money for their events by way of ‘sausage sizzles’. Live export does very little in the way of benefiting our community and you know it!

The cruelty of animals is not the only issue we tax payers should be aware of when it comes to live exports.

Why should we prop up your farms in tough times when on the one hand you except our ‘hand outs’ while at the same time take the easy option of ‘live exporting’ knowing full well that your actions are creating meat shortages in our (your) country which in turn forces the very ones who provide the assistance for your farms to pay excessive prices at times?

Care to justify this?
Posted by rehctub, Wednesday, 5 November 2008 6:50:22 AM
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Good to see the real subject being discussed. Welcome back rectub.

There is a lot I would like to say but wont until Yabby`s replied so we stay on track.
For what it is worth the Government have sold 'both' farmers and private operators. Below are some threads everybody should read.

http://www.pc.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0003/83289/sub100.pdf

http://www.austbeef.com.au/Content.asp?regID=15403&id=73794

Oh, and you be careful not to trip down the stairs Yabbs:)
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 5 November 2008 1:20:06 PM
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I cannot believe the blatant attacks on farmers in this thread, I am offended by the accusations of living off handouts and all the other bull that has been thrown around.....it is completely obvious that a large majority of australians have absolutely no idea about the running costs of a farm.

Id like to point out that when we sell the lambs at our local markets it is not us who control the pricing - basic economics tells you how any market operates...supply and demand pretty well says it all, also major buyers like Woolworths with large orders to fill have a massive impact on the price of lamb.

By the time we pay for drenching, animal health, feed, agistment costs, freight, agent commisions, levies, fees etc etc we may come out even - we recently bought some 'weanerguard'(a drench for lambs) it was $400 for 500mls, fertiliser for this years cropping was approx $30,000 - thankfully we had rain so the wheat looks great, however the prices have dropped to a point where we wont cover our costs.This was our last year of hope, we have had 3 years of crop failure..about $100K lost. I doubt the bank will allow us to extend our overdraft for next years crop.

So, to the butcher man, Im not sure where you get your info from but its all wrong. Handouts for us are NIL, we dont get interest rate subsidy, we dont get EC payments, we dont get the diesel rebate.We have off farm income which makes it impossible to be eligble for alot of these so called handouts
If we did get the EC payments I think we would get $380 a fortnight, so Im not sure that would stop us from going broke
Posted by countryperson, Wednesday, 5 November 2008 1:34:28 PM
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rehctub, I forgot to ask a few other things.

What is the handout for dead sheep? where are the handouts if meat prices take a dive?

Oh and another thing, I dont know anybody who sells their fat lambs for live export in our area, they have to be a certain weight (above average) and unfortunately we can never get them that fat....how on earth is live exporting the easy way out?

If there are meat shortages its not because of live exporting, its because the drought has forced many farmers to carry less stock because we simply couldnt afford the feed and there was no pasture left.Drought meant not alot of feed around, and what was available tripled in price - simple economics, supply and demand!

Do you think we rock up to the saleyards with a truck load of sheep and say, righto, Ill take nothing less than $100 a head - we wish. They are auctioned off to the highest bidder, so if there are 30,000 sheep in the sale than you would expect a lower price, which is what happened in the drought because noone could feed their sheep.
Posted by countryperson, Wednesday, 5 November 2008 4:37:50 PM
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Ah the comedy continues! Nicky the vegan in proverbial bed with
a butcher :)

Rehctub, I sold lambs in 79 for 25$, so your 89 figures are a rather
distored one of history. The cost price squeeze affecting agriculture
over time is well known.

Have any of you two pair of amateurs ever done a farm budget and
know what the costs are? That gear in the butcher shop would be
worth less then a common seeding rig.

Don't blame me if you are being ripped off on rent. Bunnings
warehouses pay around 100$ a metre to rent the buildings. Why
should farmers pay for your high rents?

What subsidies come to WA? I've never seen a single Dollar in my
hands and neither have any of my friends. That goes mainly to
NSW and Qld. So cancel it, but also cancel payments to the MV
industry, the education industry and every other industry that has
its hand out to Govt. Don't just discriminate against farmers.
Personally to me, it would not make a cent of difference.

150 million $ extra in WA farmers pockets, benefits a huge number
of people, I can assure you. For they spend it on fencing, silos,
fodder, machinery, a whole host of farm improvements. Everyone
benefits.

The real problem for the meat industry is that they have kept what
they paid to farmers so low, that the sheep flock has dropped from
170 million to 77 million. Its the old story, never mind clever
marketing or efficient production, let's just pay farmers less, that
way the figures work. Due to the tyranny of distance, there is
far less competition in WA then in the East, so farmers here
are particularly affected. Live exports at least keep local
meatworks honest on some % of sheep. They can't rob farmers on
all of them.

People like you highlight my point. You are quite happy to buy
20 kg of lamb for 6 $ and sell 1kg for that price, leaving farmers
5% of a lambs value. Greed if ever I saw it.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 5 November 2008 7:04:52 PM
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countryperson, you make a great point - that farmers don't set the price, customers do. For a country that stands so strongly on free markets the desire from some to subsidise local meatworks, at farmers expence by banning live exports, beggars belief. We all want local industry and processing, but if they can't compete on a world level then we either shut up shop and import meat cuts or we get on with the job at the best margin we can. That will invariably mean higher prices for the customer, or they become vegetarian - their choice.

rechtub, Surely you must find it incongruous to accept paying such rent increases but somehow think the farmer is less deserving. Of course you have always been free to vertically integrate your business by buying a farm, so I think it unfair to cry foul if you feel you've missed out on the spoils. As countryperson points out your peers set the price (buy and sell price), and the customer decides to buy or not to buy, as it should be. Meat as a fresh product is a little different to wool and cotton, but the apathy toward buying Australian made, and the lower cost to processors, has shifted nearly all our fibre value adding overseas. To the consumers benefit, though not necessarily Australia's. As a small population we cannot hope to use all domestically, so to demand that everything be processed here would mean that we wouldn't find customers overseas for all our high priced products, stifiling overall export income and primary industry.

Hi Yabby, excellent points as always.
Posted by rojo, Thursday, 6 November 2008 12:51:38 AM
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Nicky, you haven't changed a bit ;)
The focus on handouts to farmers gets a bit lame in the face of bank deposit guarantees, and billions in economy "stimulation".
Essentially, as you would be aware most of the subsidy is in interst rates, which by definition goes toward paying the banks, and not 4wd salesmen. If you aren't actually failing to cover your interest payments, you aren't getting the subsidy. Not exactly a desirable position to be in.
After all the drought has been caused by human induced climate change hasn't it, most of which is a result of urban living. It's only fair then that some farmers(20%?) get a hand to produce food at third world prices, in a first world economy - during the worst drought in living memory. .
Posted by rojo, Thursday, 6 November 2008 12:52:30 AM
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People like you highlight my point. You are quite happy to buy
20 kg of lamb for 6 $ and sell 1kg for that price, leaving farmers
5% of a lambs value. Greed if ever I saw it.

Sorry, but I never said I paid $6 per lamb, that was what farmers were paid. They were also shooting sheep at the same time if you recall. For the record I was paying about $45, today I pay $110 per lamb.

As for hand outs, I except that not all farmers get hand outs and I should have made that clear. I was generalising and I am sorry for that. But;

I don’t know of any retail business that gets hand outs when stock prices soar due to supply shortages. Bananas was a prime example. Many fruiterers when to the wall, along with transport companies because there were no bananas to carry. Who supported these people? The farmers were compensated, then, once their crops were ready for market pocketed up to $150 per box compared to the $11 they were getting. I wonder how many farmers gave back the hand outs from the millions of extra dollars they pocketed from the very ones who provided the support? The consumers!

Now for the record I don’t hate farmers but why should we support them in tough times while they pocket millions in good times and shaft us when the live export market is a better option at the time.

One for the animal lovers
In September 1995, the South African government banned the importation of live sheep. They said:
"The transportation of meat in live form is archaic and inhumane."

As for interest payments. Please remember many farmers pay interest today due to poor management. They inherited their farms with 0000000$ debt yet today they owe millions. Notice I said MANY FARMERS, not all!
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 6 November 2008 6:11:23 AM
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rehctub, you say that SOME farmers receive their farms via inheritance and end up in debt due to poor management,unfortunately most of these farmers not only inheret the land but also the debt on the land. Margins started to decline for farmers in the mid 80s - not just the last 4 years.

I would also argue that the large majority of farmers who end up with family farms are in debt because they have had to buy the farm from the parents,(at market interest rates) in some cases they have had to buy out siblings as well...some are still in partnership with retired parents so dont actually own any land.

If a young farmer is lucky enough to inheret a farm with no debt they still have to stock it, plant it, etc, so of course they are going to borrow against the land to create income.

So, once again your comment is a huge generalisation. For your comments to be true the young farmer getting the inheritance would also have to inheret trucks, utes, machinery, stock, motorbikes, tools, diesel, animal health products, fertiliser, etc etc. which in my experience has never happened - and most of our friends are farmers.
Posted by countryperson, Thursday, 6 November 2008 7:53:24 AM
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Countryperson
You are right, I was generalising to some extent and I do reconise that no all farmers are the same.

The facts are that many farmers in the past have done evrything in their power to avoid taxes. Things like, new tractors, harvesters etc when there has been nothing wrong with the old one, all in the name of tax minimisation. Often farmers will outlay 500K for a machine that gets used once per year. Now I know this has been addressed somewhat with contract harvesters as such but the reality is that you can't expect the greater community to support your interest payments because of what was essentially a poor business decision.

Now I notice you havn't answered my questions. And I am generalising as you may not be a banana farmer, so don't take this personally.
How can you justerfy $150 per box for bananas just becasue of market shortages when you received reliefe funding for having your crops wiped out by nature?

Did you pay back the reliefe funding from the additional $140 odd from each box or is that somehow different?

Remember, many families went without banabas but they still went to work and paid their taxes to support you in hard times. So why did you sharft them when you could have received the normal $11 per box for bananas knowing full well that most of us coudn't afford to eat bananas at $10 per kilo?
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 6 November 2008 3:31:19 PM
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rehtcub, thanks for the comment on South Africa - here's more:

ISSUED 16 JANUARY 2004

DEATH SHIPS - WHEN WILL IT END?

125,000 sheep were on the MAYSORA when it docked in Durban on 15 January 2004 to load cargo. The sheep were on their way from Uruguay to Jeddah for slaughter. Early on the day the ship docked in Durban, carcasses of sheep were seen floating in the harbour.

NSPCA Senior Inspector Roland Fivaz confirmed that he boarded the vessel to check on the welfare of the animals. He found 162 dead sheep and “downers” — sheep that were unable to stand for whatever reason.

“This is just one day.”

“On our instruction, just under 800 sheep were moved to “sick pens”. We had to humanely destroy 11 sheep. All were too weak to stand. One had been trampled by other sheep. Her lamb of about 3 or 4 days old was beside her. We also had to destroy 3 lambs. They had been born on board. In one instance, the umbilical cord had not totally dried yet.

That’s how pitiful it was.”

Senior Inspector Fivaz explained that stockmen on the vessel “cleared out” daily and that hundreds of sheep that had died on the vessel had been thrown overboard before the ship had docked in Durban.

The export of live animals to Mauritius for slaughter raised the nation’s hackles when it was exposed on CARTE BLANCHE. At least one ship a month departs for Mauritius carrying cattle and sometimes goats, to be slaughtered in a barbaric manner on arrival. South Africa is a civilised country and we again call upon our government to give an undertaking that no more “ships of death” will be permitted in our country. There is no doubt that there is suffering onboard. Viable alternatives are available.

The MAYSORA has sailed. SPCA personnel witnessed the pitiful sight of over one hundred thousand animals confined on the vessel on their sea-journey to death. The NSPCA puts its support firmly behind the international moves and campaigns to have this practice stopped.

Ends

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 6 November 2008 5:53:59 PM
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*The facts are that many farmers in the past have done evrything in their power to avoid taxes.*

Rehctub, you city slickers don't try to minimise your taxes?
I remind you that most farmers don't have cash coming in the
door, like those shopkeepers do :)

But you are confusing a mumbo jumbo of facts, from bananas
to live exports. I've never grown a banana in my life and never
received a subsidy in my life, be that on interest or whatever.

If you want to can subsidies, do so by all means, but to all
industries, including the MV and all those other industries.

Where the majority of farmers differ to you, is that you trade
in the protected Australian market, competing with other Australians,
operating under the same rules as you do. 70% of what farmers
produce, in particular WA farmers, is exported onto global markets,
where they compete with heavily subsidised farmers from all over
the world. I can assure you, its alot rougher on the global
market, then in your protected Aussie market. I gather that
80% of farmers don't receive any subsidies, so thats clearly the
large majority.

Back to live exports. The majority of sheep for live exports come
from WA, the majority of cattle from the North. It was sheer union
bloody mindedness that drove those cattle onto boats.

Given that most sheep come from WA, where virtually no subidies
are paid and sheep are far cheaper then in the East, its clearly
not interefering with your price of meat over there, unless you
want to start trucking sheep across the country.

This week there were plenty of sucker lambs available in WA
for 50-60$ a head. If the meat industry don't buy them at that
price, then the shippers will. Clearly there is a huge difference
between what farmers in WA are paid for sheep and lambs and what
butchers in the East pay. Not only are processors making money
on slaughter fees, the so called fifth leg is all theirs to value
add. Skins, hearts, kidneys, livers, bloodmeal, meatmeal, bonemeal,
etc.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 6 November 2008 5:56:07 PM
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Yabby you are very right when it comes to the 'fith leg' as you call it.

I reffer back to 89 when farmers were lucky to raise one dollar per head for sheep. Roma Mitchel areas, however, those same sheep that sold for $1 cost me $15 landed into my shop. The other $14 was divied up between the 'fith legers'. That was and still is a scam.

As for WA lambs I have axcess to what is called Q Lamb from hillside abs in WA.

Now these are Xbreeds that are grain fed and although they may look 'hard' the eating quality is excelent. Freight costs and time delays are their downfall so I do know what you are saying here.

In saying this what is the eating quality of WA grass fed lambs in comparison of say Vic lamb or Tassie lambs which is where I buy from?

AS for live export, if every civilized country banned live exports then this would no longer be an option. Just imagine if we had an additional 4 million lambs/sheep per year for consumption domesticly. The favourite Sunday Lamb roast would once again become affordable to most instead of a dream as it is for many today.
Posted by rehctub, Thursday, 6 November 2008 7:26:09 PM
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*The favourite Sunday Lamb roast would once again become affordable to most instead of a dream as it is for many today.*

Ah rehctub, but you once again forget the problem. Its not the
farmgate price of lamb, its getting it from the farmgate, to the
consumer in an efficient manner. Its your rent, its ovetime payments
to staff etc.

This is exactly the problem with most farm products these days.
Your loaf of bread might have 15c worth of wheat in it, but it will
cost you 3-4$. etc.

Lets say the farmgate price of lamb is around 3$. Add a dollar a kg
to put it down a chain ( in reality it costs half that), add
another dollar a kg to cut it up on a bandsaw. The real cost of
that lamb is maybe 5$ a kg. The rest is extras.

We need new marketing methods to get that lamb to the consumer,
without going through your expensive rent shop :)

A home delivery service perhaps, for people who buy whole lambs?
What would you charge them per kg, for a whole lamb, delivered to
their door?

Q-lamb does what most prime lamb producers in the West do, based
on good science. The critical point in a lamb is the last two
weeks. You need to fill those muscle cells with glycogen, so
lambs need finishing on grain supplements, even if grazing pasture.
That way you land up with juicy, more tender meat.

Pure pasture reared lamb is more a stab in the dark and not as
consistant. It depends on what the lamb ate, how tough its life was
etc. Volatile fatty acids in grasses determine flavour, too much
skatole, caused by high protein, can cause an odour. Poor energy
levels can lead to dry and tough meat.

So a happy, well fed lamb, is in the interests of the lamb, as well
as the farmer and the consumer. Its a win-win. But it costs some
money to produce, people won't do it at a loss
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 6 November 2008 10:24:06 PM
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Quick comment in the small hours. Its clear ‘nobody’ is happy. We need to take action ourselves. Government have NO intention of doing it.

The system has failed to deliver a fair go to Australians and Australian Animals.

Yabby re subs there are plenty of transport subs. I have always found however that only the greedy corps cash in.

If you thought the Governments - including states are concerned about how hard it is for the little butcher or small farmer your bananas.

What idiot destroys agriculture at a time like this especially when the worlds going to have trouble to feed itself.

What is the next generation going to eat? Pls don’t say food from china or I will throw up. We are too far away from other countries to rely on them to feed us. Not to mention it’s just stupid plain cruel to stick earth bound animals on boats for months and ship out our future jobs and value adding.

Right now you have imop a criminal situation giving MLA control over shire councils and where abattoirs can be built etc.?

How entrenched is this scam system. Perhaps that is why we see more chambers local council reps taking trips 'we pay for' to the Middle East.



They have pitched farmers against butchers and animal welfare against farmers etc...

We support the demands for a Royal Commission into the meat industry put forth by the Australian Beef Association.
Dismantle MLA and their big bosses stealing millions of tax payer’s funds they do not earn.
The butcher sums it up perfectly: =
*Live export rewards the grower, the transport companies and the agents. ....
Again=
The facts are that many farmers in the past have done everything in their power to avoid taxes.
Country person what do you mean by UNFORUTLETLY you can’t send your sheep to live exports?

Nicky FYI
http://www.warmwell.com/ap8rspca.html
Also it’s in this area Animal Welfare needs to learn. Saying its cruel for twenty years doesn’t cut it I am afraid
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 7 November 2008 3:14:59 AM
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There is a global food shortage and we look likely to be heading for the worst economic downturn in modern history yet, we still manage to provide billions in aid for struggling counties.

I say stop all live export and process all meats here then send FOOD to the struggling nations not dollars. At least then many of the ones who are about to loose their incomes can at least gain work in our processing and handling facilities.

Yabby, your comment about people buying whole.

Great point however we as consumers have been trained to react to what looks good and if it tastes good then that's a bonus.

Modern day butchers are a combination of butchers, chefs and window dressers, furthermore, consumers today demand perfection but most won't pay the price, hence the reason why 99% of bacon is imported today. PRICE!

Something like 28% or pig farmers shut their doors last year becasue they could no longer compete.

On the other hand if I could receive a lamb, pig or cow, break it down, bone chop and slice it then drop it in a box I could sell it for a fraction of what I charge today. I personally can process 20 lambs an hour, bone 65 chickens an hour or break 4 beef bodies an hour so if I could sell like this I could produce tons of meat per day, save the consumer at least 30% and make good money but the consumer won't buy it becasue it doesn't look right.

If I could sell 300 lambs per day, say 6 Ton at cost + $1/kg then I would gross $6000 profit, by the time I pay my expenses I will come out making a fortune for half a days work and the consumer wins as well, so even 50cents would be enough!

Perhaps some butchers need to join up with farmers. You grow, have them slaughtered and deliverd to my shop. I cut, pack and deliver to the consumer then we divy up the proceeds fairly. How good would that be hey! Everyone wins!
Posted by rehctub, Friday, 7 November 2008 6:16:57 AM
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*can at least gain work in our processing and handling facilities.*

Rehctub, speak about Qld, but you clearly have no idea about what
is going on in WA, thousands of km away, its like a different
country. Every meat processor in WA has vacancies, Aussies simply
don't want those kind of mundane jobs. Why don't they take the
jobs on offer?

Expecting WA farmers to write off 150 million$ a year, to suit some
weird political/social agenda that you have, is totally unrealistic
and would just kill the goose that has been laying the golden eggs
for everyone.

*Modern day butchers are a combination of butchers, chefs and window dressers,*

Ah but there you have the problem. To do all those things costs
money and pushes the cost of meat through the roof, making it
unaffordable to many consumers, who want all those things but want
it cheap. 2+2 does not make 5. It is not the cost of meat that
is the problem, its the cost of getting it from the farmgate, to
the consumer.

So my prediction is that the market will split. Those consumers
wanting your kind of service, will have to pay for that service.
Value buyers who want value for money, will buy a small freezer
and buy quality lambs in bulk. Lets say 8.50 a kg for a whole
lamb, delivered to their door. Its a win-win for everyone.

That makes quality meat cheaper then many vegetables and cheaper
then many junk foods in fancy packets.

Just take a look at the US, where value suppliers like Costco
are thriving, even in recession, whilst those companies with
high overheads and fancy but expensive service, are losing business
hand over fist.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 7 November 2008 2:02:41 PM
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*Perhaps some butchers need to join up with farmers. You grow, have them slaughtered and delivered to my shop*

'Perfect' and perhaps we need you heading MLA or better still the country.
If everybody was upfront as the butcher nobody would suffer.
Not the farmers ,not the butchers , or small good outlets nor the plumbers elections, packaging factories county towns aboriginal people living in regional areas 'or the Aussie public.
Yabby said
Rehctub, speak about Qld, but you clearly have no idea about what
is going on in WA, ....

Bollucks Yabby save your dribble for the Animal Libbers whom you try to bluff.

WA is part of Australia isnt it?

Huh?

What do you know of QLD cattle industry? Come on you said it was different to WA .

How so?

Give me ONE example of how! its different Yabby.

Its no different - other than QLD are the red neck leaders of cattle and you guys mostlty run sheep.
Same horse different rider.

AQIS still control export licences under MLA and DPI Austrade direction!!

You KNOW the Government put condtions on the abattoir industry ONLY to block them bringing in skilled labour.

You know the costs in the red meat industry with tagging which LIVE exports is exzempt from.

You know the mark up and tarifs all to make it harder for the red meat industry to compete.

This is to support Landmark Elders AWB etc imo and keep live export running for those in bed with the government and the unions truckies etc who donate and bully and threaten votes .

That why Rudd refused to tell the Australian Government at AWB enquiry it wasnt JUST money from wheat going to SH it was live animal; exports.
He KNEW the publics interest.
Gutless wonder worrying about HIMSELF IMO
Give me the butcher any day as PM

!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 7 November 2008 7:43:12 PM
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I'm with you, PALE. Yabby only knows about one thing - how to preach the MLA mantras. Last time I looked, WA was still part of Australia.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 7 November 2008 9:23:00 PM
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*Last time I looked, WA was still part of Australia.*

Wow Nicky, what wisdom! Is that why you went to university :)

WA is very much a cash cow for the rest of Australia. With
10% of the population, we generate around 50% of exports, to keep
you people in royalty payments.

It would indeed be nice if some of you actually understood just a
tiny bit about what is going on over here, rather then just take
our money.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 7 November 2008 10:18:41 PM
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Nicky

Then lets talk MLA
Btw Yabbs, did you attend one of Landmarks brain washing( imop) evil life destroying courses? Nothing else explains your bizarre support of MLA?.=
http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=landmark+forums+courses+evil&btnG=Google+

Or, perhaps you have been around mines too long.
Which reminds me are the WA Government going to deliver free a home test kit for everybody down there?=

http://www.lead.org.au/clp/products/Do-It-Yourself-Lead-Safe-Test-Kits-20070526.html

Interesting comment re Bunning’s being Pakistan controlled.

Or are Wes farmers into exports again...? After all their quiet sale to the Australian Wheat Board ( AWB) at the heart of the Cormo has turned into a disaster.

Why aren’t they ‘demanding’ Rudd continue with laying charges that were recommended from the AWB Enquiry?

*Every meat processor in WA has vacancies; Aussies simply*

Every farmer has vacancies because MLA along with the Government have MADE farming non viable to push their free trade deals but you know that already.

Meat and Livestock Australia which replaced the Australian Meat and Livestock Corporation restructure has left an unworkable, costly mess. An undemocratic, compulsory funded ($100 million) corporate structure that has far less accountability than the old AMLC.
Only 10,000 of 180,000 meat levy payers are 'members of the company'. It has policy decided by RMAC-representing less than 15% of levy payers. The company is unique in having no idea who its stake holders are.

RMAC The Red Meat Advisory Council consists of the following Peak Councils: -
Cattle Council of Australia, Australian Lot Feeders' Association, Sheepmeat Council of Australia, Live Exporters, National Meat Association (Domestic abattoirs and retailers) and Australia Meat Council AMC (exporters). They decide policy for the producer compulsory funded Meat and Livestock Australia (MLA).

*Expecting WA farmers to write off 150 million$ a year, to suit some
weird political/social agenda…*…
So you *finally understand 'why' we wont stand back while public loose well, over 6 billion dollars + pay on top to prop up live exports than cant you.

*Modern day butchers are*
They are hard working people with interest in their local communities unlike live exporters do.



*Just take a look at the US, *

YES 'please' - next post.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 7 November 2008 11:13:48 PM
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"WA is very much a cash cow for the rest of Australia. With
10% of the population, we generate around 50% of exports" and 75% of unspeakable cruelty.

Can we export (return) you to the Motherland? We'll pay the dangerous goods' levy for contaminated cargo. You're not welcome here!
Posted by dickie, Saturday, 8 November 2008 1:27:52 AM
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points quickly before turning to USA, however lets not stray from MLA 'too far ah Yabbs. You want FACTs about MLA 'Your on'.

Yabby said =

*The critical point in a lamb is the last two weeks..* It depends on what the lamb ate, how tough its life was.
Posted by Yabby, *

Yabby umm how tough its life wa ah< ever heard of stress making meat tough? Mind you I bet you and MLA don’t teach THAT in your EDUCATION classes DO they?
Nor about the lack of checks for Anthrax +other diseases. I always said you lot will start a war. Lets face it you’ve come close to that several times.

Posted by rehctub,=

*Why should we prop up your farms in tough times when on the one hand you except our ‘hand outs’ while at the same time take the easy option of ‘live exporting’ knowing full well that your actions are creating meat shortages in our (your) country which in turn forces the very ones who provide the assistance for your farms to pay excessive prices at times?

Care to justify this?*

Perfect’ How true is this man. Well Yabby we are waiting. Care to justify it?

Posted by countryperson, =

*Oh and another thing, I don’t know anybody who sells their fat lambs for live export in our area, they have to be a certain weight (above average) and unfortunately we can never get them that fat....how on earth is live exporting the easy way out?*

Country person perhaps that was an unfortunate choice of words – was it?
What do you mean unfortunately?
Are you saying you approve of live exports? Pls note I don’t rubbish farmers.

Nicky Dicky pls tell Animal Angels and others the farm is for ALL to use as a base to track loads of cattle throughout Australia.
(I am sure it will be mind blowing.)

(Thanks for passing that around)

And now Yabbs lets return to your beloved MLA and also the part USA plays in Live Animal Exports through free trade and trade.

You little Beauty!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 8 November 2008 4:17:32 AM
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God Bless America

You buy a kilo of prime Aussie beef
more cheaply in Japan than in Australia.

Gaint giant supermarket chains make a
112% mark-up.

US, producer gets between 43% and 49%.
Australia`s = much less.

In other words, our supply chain is fundamentally flawed'' Thanks largely to Kerry Packer imo and our Governments.

Presently, the cattle producer gets 25%.

US, however, the split is more like 47%

to farmer, 20% transport, processing and

33% to retailer.

Live-weight kilo of beef costs $1.68
at the farm gate in Australia says the ABA,
compared with $2.10 in the US and $2.98 in the UK

*By the time a kilo of sirloin retails in Australia, however, it is fetching $28, compared with $13.82 in the US and $34 in the UK.*

Australian mince is almost double the price of US or UK.

*What happens in between the farm and the supermarket check-out?*

Here one answer as an example-
Japan imports meat from Australia, Australia doesn't export it. ''We breed, grow, feed, slaughter, pack, chill and deliver to the wharf at a cost of $5.50,'' says Economou. ''If you look at the export price you get a figure of $5.50 a kilo FOB (free on board)''

Then the Japanese ship it home. The Government whacks a 38% impost on the product for watching the containers go across the wharf - so the beef is now worth another $2.09 a kilo.

That's $2.09 clean for the Japanese Government

Between the wharf and the retail outlet the steak rises to $10 to $50 a kilo.

The problem with the Australian market lies in the power the duopoly wields over meat processing. The farmers sell to the processors but the supermarkets have not encouraged any reinvestment in processing efficiency.

*MLA WONT encourage new players or greater efficiencies.*

We are still using 30-year old processing equipment here,

The last thing (Coles and Woolworths) want is a large independent supplier who can supply the independents at a reasonable price.

* If you make the investment they screw you out of the market''.*
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 8 November 2008 9:00:59 AM
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Oopsy daisy Dickie dear. I remind you that WA is a State dominated
by farming and mining. You down there with the city slickers,
depend on us in the regions to generate your wealth.

If farming and mining are not your scene, you are clearly living
in the wrong State.

Perhaps it would be far simpler to ship you out and let farmers
and miners get on with baling out the rest of Australia from
their failing current account deficit, for others clearly don't
have it in them to do it and compete globally as we do.

Without us, its an Australian banana republic and the Aussie
peso, here we come.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 8 November 2008 10:38:49 AM
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Lets we forget

The Tracker Dogs

Today as we stop to pay our respect, lets not forget, the others who died for us.

I wear with pride, and sorrow, as well as some anger the Remberance Vietnam 18 badge.
Eleven black Labrador dogs were used in Vietnam by the Australian Task Force as the core of Combat trackers teams that were developed from 1967 until the last combat troop troops left in 1971.
Cassius, Janus, Trajan, Tiber, Julian, Juno, Justin, Caesar, Marcian, Marcus and milo were arguably the most popular contributors to the Australian war effort in Vietnam.

A close attachment formed between animal and handler and having to part with their dogs at the end of their tours was often the hardest thing the dog handlers had to face.

You see because of the Australian Governments usual lack of compassion and wanting to save a quid rather than pay for flights and proper quarantine the handlers had to shoot their own dogs.
Like the thousand of horses before them.

Lets we forget them and their heart broken handlers.

But they are not forgotten.

Yabbs, Cat got your tongue? Thought you wanted to debate MLA America.

You got it right the first time when you said

* It was sheer unionbloody mindedness that drove those cattle onto boats*
Posted by Yabby,
Farmers and Miners working together pardon=
http://www.greenleft.org.au/2008/768/39602

Ok guys, I`m off to the bush.

Couldn’t buy get gravel water etc… Too busy delivering to mines! To bother with farmers.
Have to truck it hundreds of miles should I sue Ms Wrong the water Minister:) what do you reckon.



rehctub hope you stick around. Dreamt last night you were the PM and Lyn White your helper.. You guys put Yabby and members of parliament on a ship to ME. (Pity I woke .)
One for the road=
*Rehctub=

*I could sell 300 lambs per day, …….. I will come out making a fortune…….. *Perhaps some butchers need to join up with farmers.*

Girls as usual,

break a leg, &#61514;

(just kidding)
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 8 November 2008 8:11:11 PM
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My sacred quest is to protect innocent OLO users from predation at the hands of the cruel and heartless trolls whose numbers have multiplied on OLO in recent times.

Be assured gentle OLO users that Moronslayer will vigilantly guard your welfare from this day forth.
Posted by Moronslayer, Sunday, 9 November 2008 1:51:50 AM
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Moron


Let me whip out my crystal ball so I can tell you all....

Ar a message from the spirit of three letters and two words



M L A

death gutless.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 9 November 2008 5:42:57 AM
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So ok Belly, you don’t want to answer my question so let’s get one thing strait.

I don’t hate farmers

What I do hate is ANYONE who accepts assistance from the greater community, then, once they are back on their feet they sell to the highest bidder.

I say again, take a look at the banana farmers in far nth QLD and see how well off some became once they had got back on their feet. Some made millions yet I will bet they have not re-paid a single cent to the battlers that supported them and went without because they could not afford $14/ kilo + for what is essentially a staple food.

Pro surfers are another prime example, although I am generalising again. Here are a bunch of very highly paid individuals who in most cases have achieved their levels of brilliance because THEY DID NOT WORK! Have they repaid the money they fleeced from their years on the dole I wonder!

And finally, I understand your comments on the last few weeks are crucial for meat quality in lambs, so why bother if all you intend to do is throw them on an over crowded ship.

Care to answer this one or will you just cast this aside as well?

For the record
Back in the early 90’s, before live export became huge, sheep meat in AUS was a huge industry. I used to bone about 200 sheep a week. I paid 90c kg or $16 each on average. The topsides went to kebab shops, the back straps to Chinese restaurants and the balance to pie shops or sausages. Today, sheep cost around $3 per kilo, or $54 each due to lack of numbers. Boning them is no longer viable due to lack of numbers.

Today entire boning rooms lay dormant, many from small towns that relied on this as their only real source of work for their communities yet, if we stopped live export there is a chance these plants could re-open. What a boost this would be for these towns hey.
Posted by rehctub, Sunday, 9 November 2008 7:05:00 AM
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Yabby wrote, "... I remind you that WA is a State dominated by farming and mining. You down there with the city slickers, depend on us in the regions to generate your wealth."

I think he's got you there, Dickie.

You are wrong to doubt the word of a man who is selflessly carrying the rest of us on his back.

We "city slickers" are all collectively responsible for the mess that this country into and which Yabby and his mining mates are now getting us out of.

Unlike Yabby, we "city slickers" all voted for Howard and Costello and cheered all the way as their policies blew out our current account deficit and domestic debt and as they ramped up the rate of immigration.

Take it from me, and get behind Yabby, who knows better than rest of us what is good for this country:

Property speculation, landlordism, destruction of unions,
privatisation, endless expansion of our mineral export
industry and limitless immigration.
Posted by daggett, Sunday, 9 November 2008 12:24:02 PM
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Rehctub, let me point out again, that what Qld banana growers do
receive, has absolutaly nothing to do with WA sheep growers. I
was not even aware that they received payment, I don't follow
Qld issues much. Who paid them and why? I know that if WA growers
face calamity, like a major frost for instance, they wear it, no
subisidies. You, being in Qld, have more in common with Qld
banana growers then I have. One of my neighoburs just lost 2000
acres of wheat due to frost in September. Result is 600'000$
of losses, every cent worn by him.

Next question, nope, we don't worry about muscle glycogen levels
in sheep that go on boats, but the shippers do. Most sheep gain
weight on the boats, so they are basically floating feedlots.

Next point. There is no shortage of sheep to bone out in Australia.
You can buy them in WA for 1$ a kg. If there is a shortage in your
region, its not due to boats, but due to people getting out of the
sheep industry, due to lack of profitability.

Having boning rooms in Qld, when the surplus sheep are in WA,
does not really solve anything. We are thousands of km from you.
So move your boning room to WA where the sheep are, or have them
slaughtered here and trucked East. Your call really.

Dagget, interesting that you know more about me then I do, claiming
all sorts of things that I have never claimed. Given your
consipiracy theories about 911, over which I had a great chuckle,
there is a bird on the Gold Coast who believes in as many consipiracy
theories as you do, called Gertude. Perhaps you should chat her up :)
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 9 November 2008 2:31:18 PM
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Yabby,

If I have misrepresented your views, then why not set the record straight?

And why just chuckle quietly to yourself about my wacky views about September 11 terrorist attacks?

Why not join in and show everyone why I am wrong at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2166&page=0#49535 ?

We're all ears, Yabby.
Posted by daggett, Sunday, 9 November 2008 2:41:34 PM
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Hey Daggett

That was good whupping you gave the hill-der-beast who's done more damage to this nation than the prickly pear, cane toads and half a dozen Cyclone Tracys.

He's vandalised our good name, sadistically violated the rights of our animals and across our wide brown land, spewed a massive load of unmitigated swill.

You'll find him in the lavatory now quacking like an aggrieved duck composing his next smartarse missive for his return for not even a truck load of explosives will remove him from our presence!

Cheerio!
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 9 November 2008 9:34:22 PM
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Wow Dickie, thank you! I was not aware that you attributed to
me, such amazing powers!

Daggett, given that I don't give a flying fxxxk what you think,
why should I bother to set any records straight? As you have
proven in your last couple of posts on threads where I participate,
you have little interest in the topic, but clearly you have a chip
on your shoulder, for I still piss you off and you want to pick
a fight over totally unrelated issues.

Frankly, the way I see it is this: In between all the other things
that I do, I have some limited time to participate on OLO and I do
it purely for fun. There are some posters for whom I have a high
regard and I thoroughly enjoy reading their gems. There are some
posters with whom I agree to disagree and its still fun.

Then we have what I classify as the whacko posters and IMHO some
of them have a screw loose. The religious nuts, the conspiracy
theorists, etc.

Now if you want to believe in your conspiracy theories about 911,
hey go right ahead. If Gibo and runner want to believe in their
religious theories, ok, whatever. If Gertrude wants to believe
in her conspiracy theories about MLA and Elders etc, great for
her. Frankly its not worth my time, to even bother. I have a great
deal more in common with the more intelligent posters on OLO, who
actually make some kind of sense.

Meantime, I wish you and Gertrude or you and Dickie, every happiness
together :)
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 9 November 2008 10:37:23 PM
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Quack quack!
Posted by dickie, Sunday, 9 November 2008 10:50:04 PM
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Yabby wrote, "Frankly its not worth my time, to even bother (with 9/11 conspiracy theories)."

But aren't you the one who raised the subject?
Posted by daggett, Sunday, 9 November 2008 10:52:23 PM
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Daggett, you are absolutely right. We all should understand that none of the rest of us makes a contribution to the economy. Without Yabby - as he so often reminds us (ad nauseum - must've heard the quote somewhere and liked it) Australia would be a banana republic.

The rest of us, including rehctub, who work in other sectors so we can continually bail out farmers if it's wet, it's dry, it's hot or it's cold in order to throw tax dollars at the Yabbys of the world are sadly misguided. But we can't have them having to pull the ferals out of their yuppie schools and not being to upgrade to next year's SUV, now can we?

But how apt Dickie's analogy is. Well done, guys! Just not sure where "moron" is coming from though. He/she is a new one on me.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 10 November 2008 12:21:51 AM
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Actually, Nicky, I think farmers (as opposed to hole-diggers) are one of the very few sectors of our society who create wealth. Practically everyone else on the planet, including myself, is either directly engaged in the liquidation of humankind's capital or deriving their income indirectly from that.

And even most farmers are doing little better than mining our soil, rather than genuinely sustainably creating wealth from nature's interest (i.e. sunlight and soil, created from rock at the rate of about about a few inches per century). The only truly sustainable agricultural systems in the world are some terraced and paddy field systems such as exist in the Andes and parts of Asia, where all matter extracted from the soil, including human waste containing essential phosphorous, is returned to the soil. Every other form of agriculture practised by humankind, and most likely what is practised by Yabby, has resulted in the destruction of soil and collapse of civilisations after centuries at most.

Human history has largely been a sequence of cycles in which agricultural civilisations grown in size and populations until the soil has been destroyed and can no longer sustain the populations. The populations then collapse until centuries later the soil has recovered and the cycle starts anew. I read this in David Montgomery's "Dirt - The Erosion of Civilisations" (2007), which I cannot recommend too highly. It is roughly 245 pages long and gives a brilliant, highly readable overview of agriculturaI practices on every continent throughout history right up to the present day. It should be available soon in paperback.

Even if Yabby practises sustainable agriculture rather than soil-mining, which I very much doubt, I don't see how this gives him the right to judge the rest of us.

The choice of being able to farm the soil for ourselves has been taken away from us over the centuries through the theft of commonly owned land by greedy elites.

(tobecontinued)
Posted by daggett, Monday, 10 November 2008 9:23:57 AM
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(continuedfromabove)

An example of this process is the story of the Diggers who asserted their right to farm commonly owned land together for the good of all, but were brutally crushed by Cromwell's army in 1649. (See "The Song of the Diggers" at http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=D3-uw1dAjY0 http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=jpNdLxTSoII&feature=related http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=KKLbj6oMiaI (Billy Bragg version)) This has happened many times before and many times since right up to this very day.

Consequently, most of humankind are left with no choice but to work for others in sweat-shop conditions conditions in order to be able to eat and obtain shelter.

Howard's "Work Choices", which which Yabby, no doubt, supported, was an attempt to make Third World slave labour conditions the norm in Australia.

---

Yes, I thought Yabby's previous post was hilarious too, Dickie.

Yabby objects to how daggett has described his sociopathic political belief system, but won't take that opportunity to set the record straight. I think others may be entitled to assume that daggget was spot on.

If Yabby were to decide, however, to set the record straight, I would have little difficulty finding plenty of his own words he would need to swallow.
Posted by daggett, Monday, 10 November 2008 3:11:38 PM
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Daggett, the aspect I find so fascinating is Yabby's own tendency - no, compulsion - to argue with irrelevant "red herrings" when he is backed into a corner, then accusing others of doing just that. Then, when challenged, he has a little tantrum, picks up his bat and ball and refuses to play any more (Quack quack is spot on, Dickie).

The farming of exotic, cloven hooved animals has ruined Australia's delicate eco-systems, that much is scientifically acknowledged. But you won't stop them doing it while they can load them onto crappy wrecks of ships and send them to butchers in the Middle East and South East Asia, fully aware of the extreme suffering and appalling deaths their animals face.

There are certain moral values attached to "wealth creation". When Australia has ruined its soils and can grow nothing more, and has mined and flogged off all its mineral and other assets, what are the unqualified for anything else farmers and miners going to do? Suck up our (those of us who work in more sustainable sectors) tax dollars, of course.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 10 November 2008 5:25:21 PM
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Nicky dear, hehe how easy it is to go through life, simply oblivious
to what is happening in the real world, because you don't understand
basic economics.

We could of course shut down all mining and farming tomorrow. In
that case we would borrow even more from the Chinese and Japanese,
then we already do now, to pay our bills. Never mind a current
account of 6%, it would blow out to 20% or higher. The Chinese
and Japanese would of course want payment for all this money.
You would soon be working for Chinese bosses on their terms, not
your terms. You would soon be little but a servant in your own
country. But you clearly don't understand the implications.

So please go out and generate some exports along with the rest of
your fellow city slickers, for we are tired of you living off
the backs of regional West Australians, to carry you in the
global realities of life. People like Keating clearly understand
it, most of you seem to be economically illiterate.

Daggett, yours is a lonely life in Australia, why haven't you moved
to Cuba yet? Yes, Australians voted for Liberal and Labor, not
the socialist workers party. They clearly want and enjoy their
freedoms. But I had better not hold you up from reading yet another
Castro speech, about the wonders of Cuba.

Nicky dear, btw, where have you ever backed me in a corner?
Dream on.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 10 November 2008 10:37:21 PM
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Poor Yabby, I back you into a corner every time I want to. I'm afraid I do not feel even slightly beholden to the primary sectors who are flogging off Australia to the highest bidder - in a couple of generations you will find that China (and/or India) will have virtually taken over Australia anyway. Or what you people have left of it.

I prefer to provide for the future in a sustainable way. There are other sectors of export value besides the infamous, amoral WA (and other states') live export farmers. Furthermore, there is much to be said for Trade Unionism, following John Howard's demolition of workplace relations.

But we have digressed from the topic again - which is usually Yabby's intention when the spotlight is thrown upon what he does (or claims to do).

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 10 November 2008 11:14:29 PM
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Nicky dear, just a small detail, perhaps you don't watch or read
the news. If you check, you'll find that Ford and GM are both
pretty well on the verge of bankrupcy, dependant on US Govt
handouts to survive.

Last year the Australian MV industry lost 450 million $, so perhaps
head office might not be around to plug the holes anymore. Now
we have Mr Rudd doling out 6 billion $ of taxpayers money to try and
keep them going.

If GM and Ford Australia shut down, due to their parents being
bankrupt, perhaps your little scheme to export Australian cars to
the Middle East, might not be so sustainable after all. That is
despite 6 billion $ thrown at them from us taxpayers.

Looks like you are going to have to get serious one of these days,
about actually paying your way in the world. Otherwise, it will
hit you like a brick one day.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 10 November 2008 11:18:13 PM
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kind of funny deriding mining and agriculture, since they are the things destined to hold Australia out of recession. Especially since the vast majority of us depend on these industries every day, be it electricity(mostly from coal) or the most fundamental of needs - food and clothing. Funny too that a "declining" industry of farming has almost double the productivity growth as that of the nation as a whole.

Much as everyone thinks that their job is sooo important, how long can you go without food? Think again about importing food, Australia is one of the few countries to have significant surplus food for export, and thats before world population expands a further 40% or so.

A lot of the derision for Ag seems to stem from jealousy- envy of assets, 4wds, job satisfaction, autonomy- I don't know but it doesn't seem logically based. "Handouts" are a polarising issue to be sure, it certainly would be better to be a loan scheme in tough times. If you can't pay it back at low interest, well maybe it's time to realise some capital gain and live it up.
The only thing is it's the city peoples who have caused global warming and climate change and they should accept they have to pay for some of that damage - caused by their "sustainable" living.

I wonder what sustainable sectors there are that will hold up to a real food crisis, heaven forbid.

Lets see, pay more for food or maintain pay tv, food vs that new car, food vs anything/service that any company, anyone anywhere provides. Sane individuals will spend on food.
Jobs will come and go, agriculture will remain. Well the oldest proffesion might flourish too but I'm thinking most are out of luck on that score.
Posted by rojo, Monday, 10 November 2008 11:34:54 PM
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*Poor Yabby, I back you into a corner every time I want to.*

Nicky dear, sheesh, I wish you would let me know, for I have not
seen one yet. In your mind perhaps.

*in a couple of generations you will find that China (and/or India) will have virtually taken over Australia anyway. *

Well some of us are not that defeatist. If Australians ignore
reality as you seem to and let it happen, then you dear, will
learn the difference between consensual sex and rape, the hard
way of course, but it will be too late.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 10 November 2008 11:55:33 PM
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Hey Yabby

Excerpts from the Centre for Rural Social Research exposes you as a boastful ethics-free, ignorant alien to these lands:

"WA's settled pastoralism with foreign domestic livestock converted the annual growth of edible plants that evolved during thousands of years into meat and wool for cash.

"Conflict exists between those members of society not wanting its flow resources to be managed as stock resources and the many personal and corporate legal entities who seem to act as if their legal ownership of naturally renewable resources is a right to plunder them for as long as is financially profitable.

"Livestock-based economy and the ecological system, though highly productive in the short term, has been unsustainable. In one century many millions of sheep and cattle have been grazed.

"Each animal, driven by hunger, with its natural mower to cut and mechanism to grind the natural vegetation, and a series of fermentation vats mounted on a four-footed hard cloven-hooved transport system, transformed native plants into marketable raw materials.

"The natural ecology was massively disturbed. Gathering the edible plant material, often to the extinction of individual species, simultaneously with new hard-hoof cultivation, inevitably opened the soils to the wind and water agents of erosion that are ever-present in most land systems.

"The natural ecological system that presently is exploited as 'rangeland' amounts to about 38 per cent of WA. As may be expected, one result is that government now spends more money on services to the pastoral industry than it collects as rent (Jennings).

"The bureaucracies (chiefly Agriculture WA) seem unable to ask other questions and therefore have no mechanism to generate solutions that don't focus on traditional extension.

"Government reports appear to have done little more than promote government administration (see, for example, Task Force 1996) and further bureaucratic paper-work: more surveys, assessments, audits and reports; more committees and task forces; and political travel junkets.

"Why, it may be asked, have the requisite standards and monitoring of trends not already been established? Is it because political power of farm and station property ownership overwhelms bureaucratic rationality?"

So what's your next howler Yabby?
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 11 November 2008 12:31:07 AM
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Nicky,

Your observations are spot on. The original red herring, of course, was Yabby's proclamation that only the views of 'wealth creaters' such as himself were worthy of serious consideration.

When I challenged that he attempted to bait me for my views on the September 11 terrorist attacks on the United States.

When I challenged him to tell me why I was wrong, he then did a 180 degree turn and told me, "Frankly its not worth my time, to even bother".

When I pointed out that he raised the issue in the first place, he asked me why I hadn't moved to Cuba yet.

Of course, all along, he ducks and weaves in order to avoid confronting the central facts at hand, namely that he is practising ecological vandalism, apparently approves of barbaric cruelty to animals and welcomes the rape of the planet through the increasing exports of our climate-changing minerals.

And Yabby, as I have noted before, is extremely slippery and dishonest in the way he justifies this. One minute he tells us that the mining boom is good in its own right, but when that is challenged, he turns around and tells us we have no choice. In his words,

"... In that case we would borrow even more from the Chinese
and Japanese, then we already do now, to pay our bills. ...
You would soon be working for Chinese bosses
on their terms, not your terms. ..."

Assuming that, for argument's sake that this is true, who would Yabby have us believe it was who brought about this situation, if not John Howard, Paul Keating and Bob Hawke, all three of whom he idolises?

Clearly the circumstances that Yabby claims exist, would suit him perfectly, being the selfish, greedy and uncaring person he is, with no concern for his children or the future of this planet.

For my part, if the situation is as bad as Yabby depicts, then I think it is well past time that we held to account our political leaders, past and present, who got us into this mess.
Posted by daggett, Tuesday, 11 November 2008 1:58:28 AM
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“The agricultural region of WA has lost more species of plants and animals than any other comparable region in the world.

“For society to be content with ecologically unsustainable management of these resources is for it to condone a threat to its own survival.

"Society's responsibility and duty to require its own and private management of agricultural land and natural renewable resources to be ecologically and sustainably productive has precedence over every individual person's and corporation's agricultural and pastoral land ownership rights.

"WA's current and potential soil salinity crisis warrants government seriously to consider new land ownership rights.

(Currently WA is losing the equivalent of 19 football fields a day to salinity (WAEPA 2007.)

“Although government has not caused the ecological damage that private owners and lessees tolerate or have done to the property they manage, society shares responsibility for it because it tolerated such damage.

"This is not to imply that government should manage society's farms and stations. Rather, it suggests government should set and enforce standards and conditions of use of rangeland vegetation and arable agricultural soils to ensure their ecologically sustainable productivity.

“WA has not enforced ecologically sustainable productivity on the management of its publicly-owned rangelands. Whereas the land-use managers - whether of pastoral leases or agricultural freehold - are culpable for the resource degradation they tolerate or have caused, society is culpable for allowing those who have over-cropped, over-grazed, over-cleared and are continuing to do so.

"The common public good seems to have been neglected by government in favour of private landed property ownership. The plea of government ignorance could once have been sustained, but certainly not at any time during this last quarter century at least.” (CRSR)

Meanwhile, the feeble-minded Yabby struts his stuff, clutching brown paper bags to gift to the cretins who frequent the corridors of parliament, pondering on the delicious prospect of increasing livestock numbers to flog off to new customers in the lands of the barbarians.

His boastful, diabolical delusions echo through this parched land as he joyfully herds his hapless victims for export.

And the profits Yabby? “Ah....yes.....molto grande! Grazie....suckers!”
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 11 November 2008 9:57:37 AM
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OMG, dickie has found a new website! Wow!

Social policy heh dickie. Pity that that don't seem to know the
first thing about agriculture or about Western Australia.

Have you ever bothered to ask Calm etc, why species are threatened
in WA? They will soon tell you that foxes and rabbits are their
biggest headache and it was not WA farmers who released foxes
and rabbits into the environment.

Do you know under which terms that CP blocks were released in
WA? If farmers did not clear the lot, they lost their farms!
I've told you before Govt is responsible for much of the salinity
in WA and Govt is free to fix it, by opening drains back to the
ocean. All very simple really.

Remove livestock from the environment and we know what happens.
Grasses grow, the fuel load increases, next time things are
tinder dry and lightning strikes, the whole lot goes up in flames.

All those greenies around Canberra learnt the hard way, when
parts of their city started burning down. That is exactly why
Calm do regular burns to WA country that is not being grazed.

Up North there are huge fires every year, everything burns
including the wildlife.

The real problem that we have here once again, is that we have
a bunch of feelgood amateurs, well out of their depth when it
comes to understanding WA agriculture, as they know bugger all
about the topic.

The cutting edge of WA agriculture has developed sustainable
systems, where organic matter levels are increasing, erosion
has been solved, soil carbon levels as well as yields are
all increasing together. Slowly they are copying us in the
Eastern States. But frankly to explain it all to a bunch
of feelgood amateurs, is little more then wasting my time.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 11 November 2008 1:31:02 PM
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I somehow find it hard to believe that someone who celebrates the accelerating liquidation of Australia's natural capital, the rape of the planet's ecology, and who hates so many of his fellow citizens who have never lifted a finger against him, would be capable of properly caring for his own land.

A good many of what are claimed to be green agricultural practices are, in fact, nothing of the sort.

Perhaps, in Yabby's case they are, but I will believe it when I see it with my own eyes.

Interesting that Yabby has made no comment on David Montgomery's thesis.

And we are all quite well aware of the bushfire hazard that is posed by the uncontrolled build-up of vegetation, thank you, very much, Yabby.
Posted by daggett, Tuesday, 11 November 2008 2:16:12 PM
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You know, Daggett and Dickie, we should all be ashamed of ourselves. Clearly Yabby is the ONLY person in the country who understands sustainability, ecology and environmental responsibility (let's forget the total amorality of what he thinks and does for now), and here we are maligning him for enlightening us all.

Scientists, academics and economists have nothing on the hate-filled crayfish. I am somewhat at a loss to understand where rape and consensual sex are relevant to this debate, but perhaps Yabby has some hitherto unexplored rationale for this particular "red herring", in his dreams, perhaps?

"People go hungry because much of arable land is used to grow feed grain for animals rather than people. In the US, 157 million tons of cereals, legumes and vegetable protein – all suitable for human consumption – is fed to livestock to produce just 28 million tons of animal protein in the form of meat....

"The irony is that millions of consumers in the first world are dying from diseases of affluence such as heart attacks, strokes, diabetes and cancer, brought on by eating animal products, while the world’s poor are dying from diseases of poverty"

Read the full article at:

http://www.liveexportshame.com/news2/index.php?topic=4943.msg5981;topicseen#msg5981

Australia's current account deficit would not be as grim as it is today without the contribution of his idols (as Daggett has pointed out). The rest of us whose tax dollars prop up livestock farmers and the live export trade are expected to accept the narrow, near sighted perceptions of these people who will make their money ruining Australia and care nothing for the consequences for all of us.

But Yabby has such a short-sighted perception of the narrow picture - profit today at any cost, however amoral or brutal. That is his miserable view of the world and everyone in it except live exporters and WA "livestock" farmers.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 11 November 2008 6:21:24 PM
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Yabby wrote,

"... If Australians ignore reality as you seem to and let
it happen, then you dear, will learn the difference between
consensual sex and rape, the hard way of course, but it will
be too late."

This known as the "Good cop, bad cop" routine. While the "bad cop" is out of the room, Yabby the "good cop" tells us he really sympathises with you, and not with his Chinese masters. Just give them what they want consensually, he tells you, or when the "bad cop" returns, you will be beaten up and raped.
Posted by daggett, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 1:20:08 AM
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Nicky dear, attempts at ridicule are not going to make a point for
you. There are plenty of experts worth listening to, who unlike
you, are qualified in their fields and are not obsessed as you are.

*People go hungry because much of arable land is used to grow feed grain for animals rather than people*

Wrong, people go hungry if they have no money to buy grain that is
available. You are free to purchase it and give it to them, if you
wish. There are still millions of acres of the former USSR lying
idle, where no grain is being produced, because it simply wasn't
worth doing whilst prices were so low, until around 2006. Prices
spiked in 2007, more grain is the result, prices have dropped
40% once again. If the price of grain falls below the cost of
production, farmers will stop growing it, better just graze some
livestock on that land.

Australia's current account is crook, not due to Govt spending,
but due to the fact that Australians are poor savers and big
spenders. Next we have few industries that are globally competitive.
Agriculture and mining are where we lead the world, then a few
niche industries, that is about it. But then clearly you have
given up doing anything globally productive to pay your way.
Just let foreigners take over, as you have stated. The rest of
Australia luckily still values the contribution that farming
and mining make to our living standards, even if oddballs like
yourself don't understand economics 101.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 7:59:59 AM
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I note Yabby is still peddling 'free market' economic dogma -- sorry "Economics 101".

Yabby apparently still hasn't woken up to the fact that the rest of the world sees 'free market' ideology for the lie that it is as a result of the recent financial meltdown and many other free-market-driven catastrophes as chronicled in Naomi Klein's monumental "The Shock Doctrine" of 2007 (http://candobetter.org/node/263 http://candobetter.org/NaomiKlein http://www.naomiklein.org/ShockDoctrine). The 'free market' has also caused the current world food crisis by having diverted food production into ethanol production (see "Evo Morales re-nationalises energy and telecommunications companies, denounces biofuel-driven starvation" at http://candobetter.org/node/491) and it is driving may countries to destroy rainforests in to make way for toxic soy monocultures (http://forests.org/shared/alerts/send.aspx?id=paraguay_soya).

As for Yabby's argument about Russian agriculture, it is common practice for neo-liberal ideologues to throw in such isolated facts which seemingly lead to the conclusion that the only possible answer is the same 'free market' that has led to environmental devastation and human suffering everywhere else. I would like to see the sources upon which Yabby's assertions are based.

It is not Nicky who wants to turn this country into a colony of China , it is Yabby.

One moment he celebrates the orgy of profligate consumption of recent decades and the next moment the turns around and blames our predicament on that consumerism.

He ignores decades of self-serving propaganda that led too many Australians to believe that the importation of consumer goods of recent decades would not come at a cost to the environment, their sovereignty and their children's future and even today Yabby tries out of one side of his mouth to perpetuate that lie.

As I asked before, who were the political leaders who brought about these circumstances, if not Costello, Keating, Hawke and Howard, all of whom he worships?

Yabby's continued silence is telling.

(tobecontineud)
Posted by daggett, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 9:56:36 AM
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(continuedfromabove)

As for the cropping-versus-grazing argument, I am not able to buy into it. Both are environmentally destructive the way they are commonly practised and both raise entail serious moral and ethical questions. I think the discussion in response to "Working the land - or not" of 24 June 08 at http://webdiary.com.au/cms/?q=node/2397#comment-80362 may be of interest.

---

Yabby's crank economic prescription of ever accelerating export of our finite endowment of mineral wealth, soil mining and a tiny specialised niche manufacturing sector has been well and truly torn to shreds in the discussion over the article "Securing the future of Australian manufacturing" of 10 April 2004 at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=7218&page=0
Posted by daggett, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 9:57:19 AM
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Hehe, so after Daggett fails to convince anyone that Osama is an
angel and that 911 was due to the CIA, he now intends to turn an
animal welfare thread into an economics debate. Perhaps some
of those animal libbers will give him the pats on the head that
he seems to yearn for :) This is all so predictable.

Market economics is in fact alive and well and most Australians
have voted for it for years. Their standard of living has risen
accordingly. The present fiasco is due to the US Govt forgetting
to legislate against theft and let me assure you that if Govt's
don't legislate against theft, then some people will steal.
Even you should understand those basics.

You have shown no alternative that is better then market economics.
I don't see you or anyone else, flocking to live in the nivarna
of Cuba.

Forests are not bulldozed by the free markets, but by corrupt
Govts failing to protect them. Those same Govts, which Daggett thinks,
should control every detail of our lives.

I've said before, that Australians would save alot more, if Govts
did not rob them of their savings when they do save. Indexing for
inflation the earnings from savings would compensate people for
what is stolen. Taxation at marginal rates takes the other half,
so many Australians live it up and don't bother. But all this
is clearly way beyond your understanding.

Cropping and grazing like anything, can be well done and be sustainable,
or they can be badly done and cause damage. Any thing in the
wrong hands can be misused. Agriculture is no different.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 11:13:55 AM
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I am against animal cruelty for starters. I think we should be able to practice animal husbandry without cruel treatments eg. sheep mulesing, there are alternatives, but they are just not acted upon. The industry is very slowly committing to a future date to stop the practice, but only because they believe they will lose money from activist citizens and businesses who will ethically reject their products. Industry has to be dragged kicking and screaming into using modern methods, the constant refrain of "we'll all be rooned" is tiresomely untrue. We consumers need to reject caged hen eggs now so that chook cruelty is stopped once and for all.

Having said all that though, I am annoyed when people get all misty eyed over an ill treated dog or cat that they see on the news and start demanding the death sentence for the offenders, whilst not saying a word when innocent human beings are ill treated. We had real people going screamingly insane, sewing their lips together, committing suicide etc. because they were being imprisoned behind razor wire in the desert. I'd have liked the RSPCA and other animal welfare groups speaking up for all animals, including the human one.

There seems to be a hypocrisy present by some when animals are treated badly compared to humans. I said so to a work colleague who was upset over an animal torture case, and she said "oh, but the poor animals are innocent." Well, so are children and asylum seekers! You don't get to judge degrees of deserving, evil vs innocence. The bali bombers should not have been executed in such a cruel and inhumane manner, we euthanase our animals more humanely
Posted by human interest, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 1:37:00 PM
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I note that Yabby has neither withdrawn his scurrilous libel that I in any way excuse the terrorist Osama bin Laden (in Yabby's words: "Daggett fails to convince anyone that Osama is an angel"), nor supplied any evidence to back it up.

I have strenuously objected to that at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2166&page=0#49886 and if Yabby had bothered to read what I had written he would no what he wrote was a lie.

His response has been to continue his pretence of being a stupid ignoramus with no capacity to understand the words staring him in the face in order to make the the making of false and libellous accusations against others appear to be less reprehensible than it, in fact, is.

---

I agree with a lot of what human interest writes, but I believe that the issue of refugee rights is separate. One should not be obliged to defend the rights of refugees in order to be able to take a stance on animal rights, and similarly one should not be obliged to defend animal rights in order to be able to take a stance on refugee rights.

That having been said, I believe that the refugee rights issue has been conflated with the immigration issue and has served as a trojan horse to break down public resistant to the record high immigration that is now underway.

I support the humane treatment of anyone claiming refugee status, and object to much of the way they were treated by the Howard Government, but we also need immigration laws which work and need to prevent economic refugees being able to falsely claim to be political asylum seekers.
Posted by daggett, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 3:37:58 PM
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Yabby's greatest difficulty in life is that he knows a very little bit about a very few things and he thinks he can apply grandiose, and patronising statements to cover up that, and his particularly warped and diseased view of the world.

Yabby, why do you not breed dogs for the live export trade for China, the Philippines and Korea? What is the difference? You could pack 'em into the "Al Kuwait - probably four of five - hell, even six border collies would fit into the space given to sheep now (3 sheep per 1 square metre) They could have the fur as well as the meat. If your free-market principles apply, then there is no reason not to, and think how they would just love you.

As for the cruelty in the world to humans, generally speaking, humans tend to have more control over the predicaments in which they find themselves and more ability to extricate themselves from them than do animals, but concern for either or both is not mutually exclusive.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 7:19:44 PM
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Funny that you should say that Nicky, for right now I have 6 puppies
running around the kitchen, cute as anything. 4 are going to
extremely good homes, no chains etc, the last two we'll see. Its
either great homes or we'll put them down. I've even had a pet
lamb in that kitchen before, who lived to a ripe old age, after
she had rejoined the herd.

For your answer, just look in nature. Carnivores eating herbivores
is part of nature and is what keeps the population in check, or
they die of starvation. Too many carnivores and they wipe out
the herbivores, they both starve. Each has a role to play in the
natural order of things and I accept that role, I do not deny it,
as you do.

Daggett dear, you spend enormous time (48 pages) on another
thread, trying to show that it must have been that naughty
CIA who did it all. By very implication you must think that
Osama is a victim, clearly framed and innocent if it was that
evil CIA. Now your little feelings are hurt, after you have
come onto this thread and written post after post of insults
and accusations.

If you can't handle the heat of healthy debate, what on earth are
you doing on OLO ?
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 7:52:47 PM
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Yabby, you didn't answer my question. Why not start a trade in live dogs (and cats even) to China? Thunk how many you could cram into those filthy pens. It would, in your own terms, be no less "legitimate". Come to think of it, slavery, in your terms, would be legitimate too.

"Good homes", or put them down? By drowning, or bashing on the head? You see nothing wrong with that? But of course you wouldn't. Destroying perfectly healthy animals is nothing to you.

BTW, have you seen the Sydney Morning Herald blog on live exports?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 8:34:34 PM
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Nicky, of course I answered your question. You clearly did not
read my last response, or did not understand what I wrote.

Reread it and you will have your answer. My philosophy is quite
straight forward, ie. based on Darwinian evolution theory, which
is what the evidence shows, things are all about.

It seems to me that you still don't understand the fundamental
differences between carnivores and herbivores.

Why should I drown those puppies or bash them on the head? I'll
try to find great homes for them, but if there are none around,
rather then see them face a life of suffering on some chain, or
locked up in some apartment in the city, they will either go to
the vet for an injection or reluctantly be shot.

We'll see, it is early days yet, they are only 6 weeks old.

I've told you before, I accept life and death as part of the
natural order. You seemingly cannot accept nature as reality.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 10:21:06 PM
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Yabby, that was not an answer. You cannot claim the "natural order of things" in an argument about a free market economy. Either it is okay to export animals (any animals) for carnivores to eat, and for you to make a profit doing it, or it isn't. Think how many puppies you could cram into the "Al Kuwait".

There is absolutely no difference in exporting shiploads of dogs for barbarians in China (since it is their custom to eat (and otherwise brutalise them) than there is exporting shiploads of other animals to barbarians elsewhere. The fact that dogs are carnivores is of total irrelevance to the Chinese (and Koreans and Filipinos). There is a market for live dogs for slaughter there, so why is Australia not addressing that?

So where is your answer?

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Wednesday, 12 November 2008 10:34:41 PM
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Nicky of course I answered your question. My personal ethics and
the free market, are quite different issues.

I don't go hunting for instance and generally don't eat hunted food,
but farmed food. Those are my ethics, my philosophies. That has
nothing to do with the free market.

I see a huge difference between shipping puppies for food and sheep
for food. One is a carninvore, one a herbivore. One has evolved to
be highly intelligent for good reasons, the other has evolved to
chew up useless grass and turn it into food for itself. You throw
them all in the same pot, they are not the same. The difference
between species is huge and to treat them all the same is ridiculous.

But those are my personal ethics and philosophies. What we see
about humanity is that where meat and food supplies have been
really short, people will eat anything, even each other in
some circumstances. Perhaps the near starvtion in China for so
long, led them to start eating dog, cat whatever. Our culture
has had the luxury, of not being under their kind of population
pressure and shortage of food. So we've been fortunate to be able
to treat some species as pets or companions. Interersting that
as the standard of living rises in China and they can afford to
import beef, pork, lamb, mutton etc, pets are once again becoming
popular
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 13 November 2008 7:53:19 PM
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There is absolutely no difference to the Chinese - and nor should there be to anyone else - between abusing, torturing and eating an animal that is a carnivore from doing it to a herbivore. The animal's own heredity/eating preferences have absolutely nothing to do with it.

An economic opportunity for "battling farmers" is an economic opportunity. Why stop at sheep, cattle, goats, deer, camels and horses?

But an animal - any animal - is a living, sentient creature and all are equally capable of feelings of hunger, thirst, fear, pain and loneliness. You have an extremely selective morality, Yabby. Abusing dogs offends you, but not sheep (in your case) and cattle and the other animals you regard as edible).

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 13 November 2008 10:14:54 PM
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And to further your education ...

"1. Australian Study: Sheep Learn Quickly and Retain Knowledge for Long Periods

Australian researchers have studied sheep and determined that they have a significant capacity to learn and retain knowledge, which one source says "dispel(s) the popular belief that sheep are mindless animals." Australia's Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organisation (CSIRO) conducted the research by making 60 sheep find their way through a maze to meet up with other sheep from the same flock. Over a period of three days, the sheep dropped their average time going through the maze from 2 minutes to about 30 seconds, showing an ability to learn quickly. The sheep were retested 6 weeks later and the average time to complete the maze was still about 30 seconds, further indicating that sheep can retain such knowledge for long periods. The research corroborates past studies showing that sheep can remember the faces of up to 50 other sheep and 10 humans shown to them in pictures (see FAW #2-66, http://www.farmedanimal.net/Newsletters/Newslettern66v2.htm#2). In the CSIRO study, some sheep were also given a drug to impair their memories, with the impaired sheep performing significantly worse through the maze. The comparison shows that a sheep's learning and retention abilities are based on cognitive rather than instinctive processes. The findings may have significant welfare implications for sheep farming in Australia and elsewhere.

(Frankly, I doubt it, but you never know, some farmers may be capable of understanding this)

Nicky

http://www.farmedanimal.net/faw/faw5-33.htm
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 13 November 2008 10:17:42 PM
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*The animal's own heredity/eating preferences have absolutely nothing to do with it. *

Of course they have something to do with it and its about the
natural order and what happens in nature. Carnivores generally
eat herbivores, its a highly sustainable system that has evolved
over millions of years.

*An economic opportunity for "battling farmers" * Ah Nicky, but
you try to throw all farmers into the one pot. They are all individuals
with their own morals and reasonings. There are plenty
of women who breed and flog off dogs, living in cities. I don't
lump all of you into one group. I am explaining to you why I
personally would not breed dogs for meat. Heaps of city slickers
might be pretty keen on the idea. Farmers generally run livestock
as part of an overall system, which includes crops etc. Its the
most sustainable farming system around by far. Rotations matter.

As to sheep intelligence, given my interest in neuroscience and
as I happen to run sheep here, I'd have done more experiments on
sheep intelligence then anyone I can think of. Yes sheep do have
reasonable memories. There are genetic advantages to that. That
does not mean that they think alot or that conditions under which
they thrive, would suit another species. Each species is quite
specific, depending on its evolutionary history.

Just as you probably would not fare too well, out in a paddock eating
dried up grass, they might not thrive, driving to your workplace
and doing your job. You and sheep are different and denying those
differences and requirements is kidding yourself.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 13 November 2008 11:02:41 PM
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*If Gertrude wants to believe
in her conspiracy theories about MLA and Elders etc, frankly it’s not worth my time, to even bother. ….

Ah Yabby
Naughty boy, talking about me in my absence.


It’s a matter of record each time I have raised issues, or put up an argument,( any argument) about MLA or Elders , AWB Landmark etc you ‘ignored’ it and changed the subject .

Of course you claim Gertrude doesn’t know what she’s talking about etc….

This is despite the the following people have us.
1 Head of Elders
2 Heads of MLA Live Exports (including a call from the MLA head in ME Ian Ross
3 Your buddy Peter AWB
4 The Minister for Agricultures advisor for Rudd ALP two weeks pre election.

Now before I go on, pls remember all of the above contacted us not the other way around. - But you ‘still insist I have no idea about these people.

You’re entitled to your opinion but let me ask you what ‘direct contact have YOU had with MLA heads Elders AWB, Landmark etc by comparison pls Yabby.

Saying you honestly think Gertrude is away with the fairies and calling me a liar are two different things.

Are you calling me a liar Yabby? If not why would I not be able to make an informed opinion after dealing direct with heads?

Why indeed would you ask people to accept your version but reject ours when you offer no proof I am incorrect.

*So please go out and generate some exports*….l

I am Yabby and certain people don’t like it.

Human interest,
Our organisation works with ALL regional area and especially aboriginal people.
It isn’t possible to separate people from Animals and I think the Animal organisations feel people need to also be aware animals suffer as much as people- often more.
There isn’t a prise for NFP work we all just do what we can. As for the bombers they were killed far more kindly than our millions of Australian farm animals I can ASSURE you.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 16 November 2008 9:43:09 PM
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Yabby wrote, "Daggett dear, you spend enormous time (48 pages) on another thread, trying to show that it must have been that naughty
CIA who did it all."

For someone who stated of the 9/11 controversy, "Frankly its not worth my time, to even bother," you have spent an awful lot of time extending that discussion at http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=2166&page=0#50194 as well as dragging that discussion into this thread,.
I would add that, into the bargain, you seem to have made a complete ass of yourself be proclaiming that clearly faked videotape confession by 'Osama bin Laden' to be evidence that Osama bin Laden masterminded the 9/11 attacks.

Yabby continued, "... By very implication you must think that
Osama is a victim, clearly framed and innocent if it was that
evil CIA. ..."

Why does that necessarily follow?

I repeat that I reject your baseless smear against me that simply stating these facts in any way means that excuse Osama bin Laden.

In any case, I am not saying whether or not the terrorist CIA asset Osama bin Laden had any hand in the 9/11 attacks. All I am saying is that no evidence has been produced and even the FBI has stated that it doesn't have the necessary evidence to charge Osama bin Laden with the 9/11 attacks. Wherever the truth may lie, it is obvious that the US Government doesn't want Osama bin Laden captured alive or he would face a public trial which would obviously greatly embarrass the US Government.

Yabby continued, "... Now your little feelings are hurt, ..."

Glad to see Yabby again showing off his mind-reading abilities.

" ... after you have come onto this thread and written post after post of insults and accusations."

I thought they were statements of fact in response to an unfair attack on another contributor. Why not show me where I am wrong?
Posted by daggett, Sunday, 16 November 2008 10:50:24 PM
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Daggett and PALE, have you not yet learned that unless your moral philosophies come within Yabby's very limited compass, you are at best "away with the fairies" or at worst deluded?

Yabby, you still do not seem to be able to tell me why the live export industry would have a problem with cramming hundreds of thousands of border collies on ships to China. There really is no difference between that and sending sheep, cows, goats, camels and deer to the Middle East and other parts of Asia. The herbivore/carnivore argument means nothing to the Chinese, and clearly there's a market for it. You have just said it is your personal preference not to do so, but have given no substantive reason why not. Animal abuse is animal abuse regardless of the species - or what it eats.

Why do you make the blanket assumption that it is "women in the cities who breed and flog off dogs"? So far as I know it is not a gender-specific activity. This from the man who was too irresponsible to have his dog/s neutered and was talking about putting puppies down (how many did you finish up knocking on the head?).

And Yabby, I'm afraid you really cannot claim to have conducted proper, peer-reviewed studies on sheep intelligence - unless, of course, you can provide links to your research papers on the subject (speaking of deluded).

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 16 November 2008 11:40:47 PM
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Ah Nicky, but you are going from the assumption that eating other
species is abuse. I disagree with you. It is not for me to say
if the Chinese should or should not eat dogs.

What I am saying is that species differ in their requirements
and what might not be the correct environment for Nicky or
a dog, might be perfect for a sheep or some other species. You cannot
treat them all the same, when they are distinctly different.

On a ship, the basic requirments of a sheep are met, as they are
mentally umcomplicated creatures, unlike yourself or perhaps dogs
too. Experts would have to decide that, qualified people in the
field and people with experience.

Why on earth would I want to write peer reviewed papers? I don't
need a job lol. Neither do I have the need to impress anyone or
have the desire to climb up the ladder at any public institution,
by gaining a few brownie points for each paper.

That does not mean that I am not scientifically minded and do my
own experiments. They are meant for my benefit. Get yourself
a pet lamb and do your own experiments if you wish. You'll soon
notice that having a lamb running around the kitchen is a bit
different to a puppy.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 17 November 2008 12:31:07 AM
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Yabby Nicky

There is no need for any more research about the live animal trade. It’s disappointing to come back and see we have slipped back to this. It was was done to death on olo years ago.

Now can we move on pls take it RSPCA have campaigned for years to have live exports diverted to chilled and perhaps examine why the Government have ignored them.

It is in this area you will find Yabby doesn’t want to venture Nicky.

He doesn’t want any proof that FF, MLA Austrade AQIS and the State and Federal Governments push bully block and make sure their friends within the industry are allowed to continue.

He doesn’t want to acknowledge the fact that obviously dealing with Muslim leaders and oversees contacts we might have dealt on a higher level then just as a single semi retired farmer in WA.

He doesn’t want to discuss the call from the head of MLA in the Middle East and what was said about competition to live exports- any competition.

He doesn’t want to discuss the difficulties involved with reopening plants here.

Of course he must know of some of these problems as he said – If the Government cut the red tape to abattoirs in Australia.

That’s right Yabby- The red tape that was put in place in favour of the live animal trade for friends involved in this cruel industry.

I note you didn’t have the balls to answer the question-
Are you calling me a liar Yabby?
You will do anything rather than debate MLA AWB Landmark with me.

Wont You. Would you like me to post just a couple of lines on ‘research’ into Elders or AWB etc?
That might be interesting ah.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 17 November 2008 7:01:09 AM
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Yabby is very good at answering only what he wants to really. He failed to address the substantive part of my question; that being why his much loved trade baulks at sending dogs to China. Working on the general free market philosophy if there is a market there you supply it. He also hasn't responded to my question about how many of his puppies he had put down/knocked on the head because he is too irresponsible to have his dog/s neutered (unless he profits from them too)

BTW, PALE, no debate is closed until all participants agree that it is.

The trade has no compunction about sheep, cattle, camels, goats, deer and camels, why stop there? Greyhounds are exported to Macau and the Philippines (where they are also partial to dog meat). Dogs require the same as sheep and cattle on such voyages - food, water and shelter (which the animals currently exported receive in varying degrees - including from all weather conditions to suffocation).

Perhaps either Yabby or PALE can enlighten us about the so called "red tape". A bit of a look into the favoured treatment AQIS gives the live export trade over the meat trade might be a good place to start - the live trade costs AQIS very little, since they appear to rarely attend loadings at Fremantle at least, and when they are called and shamed into it they do not even do inspections. That could be a bit of a clue.

It would be interesting to get to the bottom of the reported detentions of the dirty ships in Portland and Adelaide too.

Reports in WA suggest that the blessing of the cattle on the "Maysora" caused the odd ripple in the trade though. Bring it on!

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 17 November 2008 4:01:04 PM
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*because he is too irresponsible to have his dog/s neutered *

Deary me Nicky, your area of expertise is showing once again, ie
commenting about things which you have absolutaly no knowledge or
understanding. Ignorance is clearly bliss in Nicky's world!

If you have a sensational dog and would like to keep the genetic
line going, it makes perfect sense not to sterilise that dog.

The fact that I had intentions of finding my dog a suitable, eligible
partner in the next 2-3 years, had perhaps not even occured to you.

Back to your economics question. In a free market it makes
absolutaly no sense to breed dogs in Australia and ship them
to China for meat, as the Chinese can clearly breed them much
cheaper themselves. Growing any carnivore for food however, does
not make alot of sense, due to the food conversion rates.

Sheep and dogs certainly are different and would be different on
a ship. Dogs generally do not like to defecate in their own nests
for instance, for sheep its not a problem, they do so naturally and
in the paddock.

As to AQIS, again you girls know nothing, so comment from ignorance.
The laws governing what happens in meatworks are dependant on
international agreements that overseas markets have with Australia.
If we don't comply with EU, US laws etc, they deny us access to
their meat markets. That includes their inspectors inspecting our
plants, to see that they meet their standards. That is why it
is so complex to obtain registration of export plants. Not
because of any conspiracy theories.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 17 November 2008 5:01:50 PM
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*Perhaps either Yabby or PALE can enlighten us about the so called "red tape".*

Well I for one couldn`t agree more Nicky.

Beyond any doubt that is the most sensible thing you have said.
Ok Yabby will you be fair and tell her what we mean by cutting the red tape?
I cant see why not. I am interested to know if you will do that.

I will wait until I see your reply to Nickys question as to what we mean by cutting the Government cutting the red tape before I comment.

I am interested TBO if you will reply.
I do recall you made some attempt several months ago to explain the red tape however as Nicky is now asking the right questions will you try again?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 17 November 2008 5:11:43 PM
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Yabby, it is clearly irresponsible to breed dogs for whom you have no expectation of finding homes; that is the language of morals and principles, of which of course you have no understanding. Why breed puppies whom you will simply knock on the head when no-one wants them?

As for "conspiracy theories", do you think it is simply an accident that countries which import live Australian animals (which also import massive quantities of meat) have placed artificial trade barriers in the form of tariffs to discourage importing meat over live animals? Nor is it any accident that AQIS charges the meat processing sector excessive fees while charging the live exporters virtually nothing. Do get a grip. You might also want to look into the Hassall reports and the jobs they claim are dependent on the live export industry and their highly questionable qualitative research methodologies (I refer in particular to their multiplicity factors) - in other words, the wife of the man who cleans the toilets at the local truck stop where the transporter buys the odd box of matches is included. One does not need to be a "conspiracy theorist" to see the gaping holes in the arguments.

Still - governments believe it - at this point, at least. That's why people despise politicians.

As for dogs not being suited to live export because they do not like fouling their "living quarters", I'd be prepared to bet that sheep do not like spending 3-4 weeks knee deep in their mature, crammed 3 to a square metre either, but what the hell? The industry took AQIS to court to make sure that didn't improve, too. And pigs? They hate it too, but 350,000+ of them in Australia are forced to do it.

Like PALE, I can't wait to hear your explanations of the "red tape" excuse.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 17 November 2008 10:38:35 PM
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Nicky, it is yet another sign of your stupidity, when you pass
judgement in situations where you don't know the facts. As I have
stated before, sterilising a dog, where one wants to keep the genetic
lines going, is not the smartest of things to do. Fact is that my
dogs are miles from any other dogs. Fact is that dogs generally
don't wander around these parts, being livestock country, they
will soon be shot. Fact is the system has worked fine for 30 years
or so. Fact is that somebody new in the district did not pay
attention to how things are done, lucky for them their dog was
not shot.

Nope I don't just hand out puppies to anyone. Either my dogs go to
great homes or not at all. They are certainly not going to the city,
for they are sheepdogs and need space to be content with life.

But you are too ignorant to try and understand the whole picture.

Live exporters and meatworks pay the same rates per hour for
AQIS services. Meatworks need every carcass inspected to meet
agreements reached with the US etc, that has little to do with
the live trade. AQIS is about fee for service. Is something so
simple beyond you?

You raise the economic issue yet once again. If farmers are paid
60$ for sheep rather then 20$, I can assure you that when they
spend that money in the community, huge numbers of jobs are
created and they don't go out of business either. Even your
simplistic little brain should understand that.

Where is there manure that is knee deep? Do you even know anything
about sheep dung? Herbivore dung makes great flooring material
in Africa btw.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 5:12:18 AM
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*The laws governing what happens in meatworks are dependant on
International agreements that overseas markets have with Australia.
If we don't comply with EU, US laws etc, they deny us access to
Their meat markets. That includes their inspectors inspecting our
Plants, to see that they meet their standards. That is why it
Is so complex to obtain registration of export plants. Not
Because of any conspiracy theories.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 17 November 2008 5:01:50 PM*

Nicky

I didn’t notice Yabby’s above comment. I am pretty busy at the moment.

However if you use your imagination it goes a long way to explaining the problem with red tape. There are 'so many' requirements placed upon the red meat industry that doesn’t exist in sending animals alive.
At the moment the amount of red meat leaving Australia is well and truly controlled and manipulated

USA especially always controlled this for their trade dollar deals and other reasons.

It sucks. We have had a real opportunity to change a lot of this in the last few years.

I have told you before Malaysia will be the hub of the muli trillion dollar Halal industries and export chilled Halal Meat through JAKIM to the ME etc...

They were happy to slaughter here in Australia and send carcass to Malaysia in consideration of labour costs.

We asked Hugh to attend meetings and others to discuss this with Malaysian Gov delegates.
He refused and wouldn’t even reply….

Of course it’s the answer. Interesting he then approached the people we were working with behind our backs…. Interesting he then headed the handle with care.

I hope people are not being mislead and too trusting in some cases.
Yeh I know Yabbs speaking of conspiracies. ( Just telling it to Nicky he way we see it)

Halal Meat is huge and will only grow more. Why should Australia be left behind and only used as the largest supplier for raw materials exporting our jobs.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 5:20:17 AM
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Open letter to Dr Hugh Wirth.RSPCA.

Dear Dr Wirth
As you have ignored 'all' of our invitations along with RSPCA National since the Cormo to talk with Muslim leaders from Australia and ME re supply of Halal meat and to discuss animal welfare- I thought you might publicly respond to our letter.

I am writing this letter on a public forum because for the last six years our organisation has been unable to get a response from either ourself or RSPCA National regarding our project to work with Muslim people both from Australia and overseas to improve animal welfare and work direct with Australian farmers.

The response has been the same from other leading Animal Welfare groups. To a point in some cases I suppose I can understand that reaction. After all many animal Welfare groups have large vegetarian membership.

Which brings me back to RSPCA Dr Wirth.

As Animal welfare leaders of Australia who hold main steam views that do not oppose animals being slaughtered we knew RSPCA would be delighted with our MOU for Animal Welfare with Muslim leaders.-‘ We thought’?

It was all set up so donations back into animal welfare would go direct to RSPCA to continue their work to improve conditions for all animals. Our little gift to you for the animals. Even a small percent of a multi trillion dollar industry would have set up RSPCA for the rest of their lives enabling them to assist many more animals and employ more inspectors.

Why is it that only the RSPCA QLD CEO took interest in this project?

The latest attempt was made by one of our lawyers who contacted Heather in a real attempt to work united for animals.

Despite saying lets work united from now on- We didn’t hear a word from them. I Believe you attended the meeting on the Gold Coast at the Casino Hugh.

Interesting they flew Islamic people from INDIA to address live exports.
Our office is a mile from their and our AUSTRALIAN Muslim people would have happily addressed the room.
You knew that.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 5:55:12 AM
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Yabby, you still have not addressed my question about why the live export trade chooses not to export dogs to China, given that there is a voracious bloodlust there for them - the matter of the dung aside (the dung from any carnivore is infinitely more unpleasant than that from a herbivore, of course, but given the volume we are talking about on such as the "Al Kuwait", and the addition of urine, over a 3-4 week period on a multi-port voyage, even you cannot try and convince anyone that the conditions are not disgusting (read the oil rig worker's report at www.liveexportshame.com - he also raises the matter of carcasses, and sheep trying to swim - they would be the ones too sick to be offloaded upon arrival).

Three sheep per square metre is a lot of dung and urine, and the photos of conditions on the "Cormo Express" demonstrate that - sheep, and even a new born lamb, trying to swim.

The reality is that there is no difference.

As for AQIS fees - they must charge the live export trade peanuts, since they rarely attend and inspect at loadings.

PALE, I have to suggest that putting "open letters" here for politicians and for Hugh Wirth is a wasted exercise, since they are unlikely to be read by anyone other than those interested in the topic at hand. You would be better advised to write them to the major media outlets, because as a strategy this will go nowhere. We have been down this road so often. If you can't get a response out of him, why not try camping on his doorstep until you do?

(To continue)

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 4:53:47 PM
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Continued ...

Yabby, as for your dogs, it is morally reprehensible to breed dogs (whatever their "lineage") only to kill them because no-one wants them. You are contributing to the 200,000+ unwanted dogs destroyed every year in this country and you should be ashamed of yourself. But everything is about dollars to you, isn't it, not about the lives of the animals you kill so thoughtlessly. I have no interest in your arguments about a dog's "lineage", or show quality; I have never had, or wanted a thoroughbred dog, I would prefer to have the ones that no-one else wants.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 4:54:37 PM
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Nicky, your lack of intelligence and ignorance, really knows no
limits! Where did I say that I sell pups? Where did I say that
I breed show dogs? Where did I say that they are thoroughbreds?

Fact is that the female I have is a mutt, which I purchased from
a drover, who had worked with sheep for 40 years. She was the
runt of the litter! Fact is that from day 1, she had personality
and brains, like no other dog I've ever owned. Those characteristics
are worth preserving. My original thought had been correct, ie
a bloke who worked all day with sheep for 40 years, would know
something about having good sheep dogs. My dog has got it Nicky,
you clearly have not :)

But nope, you jump off to your little conclusions that I breed dogs
for money and sell them. Some people can't help themselves, they
are just born the way they are. All that university can't help
them get over their ignorance. You are a classic example.

We know what conditions are like on the boats, we have Australian
vets on every boat. We don't rely on one oil worker for our
information, but on qualified Australians. Many have travelled
on those boats.

If you knew about the live trade, you would know that before going
on a boat, sheep are held in huge holding sheds and fed pellets,
sorted, inspected etc. Before they leave those facilities, to
go on a truck to go to the wharf, is the best time for AQIS to
inspect them, so that any which they think are unsuitable, can
be removed. That is easy to do at a holding facility, hard to
do on the wharf. Just because you can't see the AQIS people
inspecting the sheep, does not mean that they are not doing their
jobs. It means that you don't understand how the industry functions
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 5:35:41 PM
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Nicky is to be commended for her most accurate post.

The usual henchman stuff spills from Yabby's mouth.

I must say that not only does he not spay his bitches, he clearly does not neuter his dogs either. Why spend a quid on "dumb" animals eh? Unless of course his bitch went bush and mated with a "feral" animal.

Many "feral" animals have originated from farming properties - (animals "in season" like to go walkabout.)

This is yet another disgraceful revelation on Yabby's shabby practices but hardly surprising.
Posted by dickie, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 6:18:52 PM
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*Perhaps either Yabby or PALE can enlighten us about the so called "red tape"*

Yabby-

*The laws governing what happens in meatworks are dependant on
International agreements that overseas markets have with Australia*

*If we don't comply with EU, US laws etc, they deny us access to
Their meat markets*(Tick Correct)

*That includes their inspectors inspecting our
Plants, to see that they meet their standards.* (Tick correct)

*That is why it’s so complex to obtain registration of export plants.*
(Tick correct)

*Not Because of any conspiracy theories*
WRONG! Yabby don’t tell me YOU who claim to have some knowledge on the meat industry have no knowledge of how the trade and trade dollars are manipulated.

You’re not serious-. Well well old Yabby is just a babe in the woods after all.
Australia doesn’t need USA or anybody else to check our plants. The meat industry FYI is the most corrupt industry world wide.
Just the way it is I guess.
http://members.tripod.com/~orgcrime/japecoli.htm
http://books.google.com.au/books?id=4PKeOjgW1zkC&pg=PA287&lpg=PA287&dq=mafia+co
http://foro.traducegratis.com/deportes-y-ocio/3662-mafia-siciliana.html
Silence of the Calves
And discount meat can also be obtained surreptitiously on the spot market through smaller distributors with Mafia connections. ...
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-16119677.html

Nicky

Ok if it makes you happy I will write an open letters to Ministers.
pls can we stay on track. Allow Yabby to explain the ‘red tape’ further.

Dear Peter McGauran

I have been requested to write open letters to Ministers by Nicky in preference to writing to Hugh Wirth. Could confirm a discussion with your advisor on the Gold Coast regarding live exports.
At that meeting your representative advised that two days prior they had sat with yourself at a meeting with Dr Wirth acting as President of WSPA and David Bowles President RSPCA UK where by they both pledged their ongoing support for live exports.
That was the same week RSPCA National launched their national appeal against live exports and farm animals if you recall.

Could you now confirm your advisors accuracy.

Thank You

Regards

Hey Nicky, think I am getting the hang of this now- tar.

Think I will write to Kevin Rudd next .
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 7:09:47 PM
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PALE, the point I was trying to make was that your "open letters" on this forum really go nowhere., Do you honestly think Rudd, Wirth, and the now totally irrelevant McGauran even see them?

If you want to make a noise you have to do it rather more publicly than this, I'm afraid. In recent times it seems that only four people have read this thread, including you. It's absolutely a no-brainer. It just doesn't go anywhere! Who cares what McGauran's adviser said whenever? That's a dead argument.

As for your links, I'm afraid they would confirm Yabby's views about conspiracy theories, The Mafia the Yakuza have little to do with any industry in Australia, and the Chinese certainly are not in a position to point the finger at anyone about sanitation of anything. Organized crime really isn't that big in Australia, especially in the humble meat industry. It just isn't worth enough.

Why could your RSPCA Queensland CEO not get Wirth's attention? Why can he not get Lynn Bradshaw's attention? As I said - if you want Wirth to take notice the only thing that will do it is camping on his doorstep.

As for Yabby and his dog that has been (probably just his bad syntax and sentence construction) minding sheep for 40 years it must be some dog. But at the end of the day anyone could tell him that people do not flock (excuse the pun) to buy cross-bred puppies. He just needs to have a look at the RSPCA stats on euthanised dogs every year, but killing animals is not something that bothers him, so it's unlikely that he will. And those are only the recorded numbers and do not include those whom farmers and others who traffic in dogs drown or knock on the head. Still no answer on exporting dogs to China, I notice though, beyond the usual claptrap and avoidance.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 18 November 2008 11:16:37 PM
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Why would trafficing dogs be a big deal anyway. Positively civilised compared to sex and children trafficing of humans for instance.
At least dog trafficing by farmers would be of the legal variety, through proper channels. I have to admit it's a marketing opportunity I'd never looked into - seeing as I don't have any dogs, nor any intention of changing the status quo. I don't see much hope for such a market, china exports dog meat as it is.

From those in the know St Bernards seem the go. If translation is accurate: http://www.aapn.org/stbernard.html

The problem isn't that people eat dog, it's the way the dog is raised and treated. Presumably not in wide open spaces with freedom to socialise with their peers like sheep and cattle. I wonder what you'd use to muster dogs.

Depends how you think of the dogs too, images of your own friendly "loving" one, or the vicious one down the road. The former and you'd abhor the dog trade, the latter?
Posted by rojo, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 1:33:41 AM
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Nicky

Do try to have some sense of humour.

This may be a shock but I don’t need help with whom to write to- tar anyway.( you mean well.)

I write - a bit of this, and that, which comes up on Goggles where ‘everybody’ can read it.
It’s worked rather well in the past.. example=

MLA head in Middle East head head Ian Ross called me and said.
* MLA would ‘not ‘be prepared to present to customers in the Middle East our programme to co joint ventures in Australia with farmers and abattoir owners.*

MLA said they would do * nothing that would *compete with* live exports or *interfere with live exports.

That’s a pretty big confession coming from the head guy considering they deny live gets favouritism to chill.


You have a goose like me prepared to stand up to Hugh and MLA. I don’t see anybody else coming up with solid info on these guys do you.

Yabby’s saying there is nothing wrong with the system. I am saying are you calling me a liar Yabby- which he refuses to answer.



The other thing I am trying to do is to give 'you' the heads up on info that you would otherwise not have.


Stop a moment and ask yourself if it’s smart to have Hugh heading handle with Care.

Why did Hugh leave the President of RSPCA National position so quietly. Think and re read the letter to Peter McGauran. Do you honestly think I would put something up on the net that could leave me open to litigation.

RSPCA Queensland CEO can’t make anybody do anything. He does what he can with his own patch end of story. Btw ALL of this info was sent to your mates. Excuse me then for asking the obvious- what’s really going on with animal welfare in this country.

Lyn White and Mark Pearson would be the best people to head a new board imo.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 6:17:52 AM
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Rojo

Your attempt to bait Nicky to divert the thread from MLA Governments red tape won’t work with me but you keep on trying.

There is a message however in your posts for Nicky if one cares to look.

That message is loud and clear. You can’t MAKE people care about animals. Just like the genes of the dog we are talking about breeding here.

The breeding of a person and blood line is no different to that of animals.
Either you’re born with sensitivity or your not.

Nicky No amount of protesting to these people or the Government will ever change things for animals.

I admire your efforts but its action that’s required here otherwise animal welfare will remain on the same par as our good old Churches. Simply lip service)

You don’t honestly think I would be stupid enough to post names on the net of companies in Australia with links to mafia do you.


What is required if you want to start to make a difference is for individual people to get out and start their own project on the farm and working with people overseas who want to purchase meat.

Lots a small plants reopening. Someone with the contacts to assist by ensuring ALL are given a fair go obtaining export licences.

We can do with without the FF the Governments err, help or MLA or even Austrade.
These organisations imo are put there to control the industry and block red meat exports to a large degree in favour of their mates within the industry of the live animal export trade.

So if anybody wants to make a difference there is one way only.

Using all their energy lobbying the 'very people' who are 'pushing'is a waste of time. .

Nothing else is ever going to make the difference. I for one refuse to waste time flogging a dead horse.

We either do it ourselves or allow it to go on.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 6:53:52 AM
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Dickie dear, rest assured that if my dogs had as little common sense
as you and Nicky, they would be spayed tomorrow!

As it happens, its not farmers dogs that generally go feral,
but city slickers who visit the bush, hobby farmers who don't
know what they are doing etc. People rent houses on some farm
in the country, they don't control their little darlings, next
thing they are out ripping into sheep. Ask any farmer who
farms near a town, where his problems come from.

I've shot a few dogs on this place, all owned by blow ins,
not by other farmers. A couple ripped apart a few sheep,
before finally being shot.

Nicky, the fact that you are terrified of death and can't
deal with it, is your problem, not my problem. If dogs and
cats are unwanted, then the RSPCA do the right thing and
put them down. Fair enough, there is no issue there.
Better to put a dog down, then have it chained up for
most of its life, badly treated. That is exactly why
I won't sell my pups, but if I know of great homes
for them, then that is wonderful. Of this litter,
4 are spoken for, the other two we'll see. They are
still young.

I've answered your Chinese dog question many times now,
but it seems that you are unable to read and actually
think about my posts, too busy posting more nonsense
to the thread.
Posted by Yabby, Wednesday, 19 November 2008 7:41:53 AM
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*If dogs and
cats are unwanted, then the RSPCA do the right thing and
put them down. Fair enough, there is no issue there.*

That’s rather ill-informed not to mention insular. As a matter of fact Yabby if you ask the RSPCA there’s a huge issue.
RSPCA are sick to death of irresponsible people both in domestic and farm animals.

The amount of unnecessary suffering that goes on because of people thinking there’s not much of an issue- just putting animals down or killing them is nothing short of criminal.

Getting back to the real issue if you cant SEE the suffering fear and discomfort on the faces of the sheep cattle camels and the dozens of others on those ships frankly then there’s something wrong with you. Your counter argument has always been what about the farmers.
What about the breeders and farmers indeed:
Its time they got off their arse and confronted the Government.

Good men have stood up and thrown punches in the past as to how their animals were being treated. Good men blocked the wharfs and let me tell you.
Money had little to do with it.

No 'real man' supports live exports and certainly no REAL farmers.

I agree Animal Welfare groups need basic education and to get involved with farmers and buyers of Halal products I also know they are doing what the GOOD farmers started.

The disgusting lies of the Government MLA and others are a matter of record.
For years the libbers said an ALP Government would do more for Animals than a Howard Government.

Well here they are the ALP and the Milky bar Kid.

We started out with lies two weeks after being elected! Some Chinese Sheila has allowed our water to be sold to an offshore company.
Crikey.
That could only happen in Australia. I’m stuffed if I know where this country is heading .
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 20 November 2008 4:26:23 PM
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Yabby, I meant a rational answer. Neither have I ever stated that I fear death, nor is that even relevant to this debate either way. I said it is irresponsible to bring animals into the world to kill them - in this case, cross-bred puppies, whose "bloodline" claims to fame are most likely in your eyes only. You are also risking your dog getting mammary and other cancers by not having her spayed, but that wouldn't bother you, of course. Nor do your sweeping generalizations about "city" people and their dogs have any foundation in fact beyond your own tainted observation.

PALE, I don't know that animal advocacy groups thought a Labor government would do any more about this than the Howard government, politicians from the major parties will always sell out to the highest bidder - equate that to listening to those who howl the loudest, and at this time it is the farming lobby which now is able to claim drought as an addition to its much whinged about woes (despite being compensated for it). Kerry O'Brien would have been beaten into submission by the farming lobby even had he managed to retain the portfolio.

You also seem to think that people can abandon their jobs to do what you want them to do. Most of us have people depending upon is in some way or another, and furthermore, being where it is possible to maintain relationships with the media matters. In the letter writing context, I'd suggest that if you're not getting responses to your letters perhaps you could use some business advice. For example, have you tried to speak to Wirthless by phone? Or Lynn Bradshaw? Or Handle with Care?

As I have said countless times before, different animal welfare groups have different strategies and philosophies, and that is a good thing. They think their ways are the way to go and you think yours is. Live and let live.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Thursday, 20 November 2008 5:05:11 PM
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*Neither have I ever stated that I fear death,*

You don't need to state it in words, for your whole philosophy comes
back to having a problem with it, which is repeated again and
again. Birth and death are part of life, get used to it. If
you are hit by a proverbial truck tomorrow, you won't know about
dying and it really won't matter. The world keeps spinning, with
you or without you.

*whose "bloodline" claims to fame are most likely in your eyes only.*

Ah more uninformed bulldust from Nicky. As a matter of fact,
2 of these pups are going to great homes for a simple reason.
Last time my dog had pups, one of them went to some good friends
some distance from here. They, as well as visitors to their home,
are so thrilled with having a bright dog that's had a happy
puppyhood and no abuse, that when word got out on the grapevine
that there were some more pups around, they were immediately
wanted. Forget all this crap about overbred purebreds.

*You are also risking your dog getting mammary and other cancers*

What I do is risk my dog of having a natural life and that has
now included raising two sets of pups, which she clearly enjoys.
But of course once again your focus is on worry about death,
rather then the enjoyable life which she leads, day for day.
Posted by Yabby, Thursday, 20 November 2008 5:33:12 PM
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pale, no bait. If we accept eating pigs which some choose to keep as pets, and are everybit as intelligent as dogs if not moreso, then why don't we think dogs are capable of being used as food. There is the same shock at horsemeat consumption in France and Kangaroo in Australia by countries that have stereotypical views.

It gets down to the deep seated feelings we have for personal pets, that we impose on other beings. I wouldn't eat a pet, because of close personal attachment, but I'd have no trouble eating anyone elses. Some people expand the personal attachment part beyond rationality.
Posted by rojo, Thursday, 20 November 2008 8:32:53 PM
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Rojo,
Keep that up you’ll turn me too into a veggie. You like a sad sick puppy.
I don’t like the thought of eating dog because I think of my pet dog or somebody else’s. It’s far deeper than that.


People, who know animals will tell you they think, feel in a way that often has a higher understanding than people.
Just because I work to reopen abattoirs doesn’t mean I like it.

*PALE, I don't know that animal advocacy groups thought a Labour government would do any more about this than the Howard government,*

No but I do Nicky.

Even Lyn thought Jack Lake was Ok
No wonder why Beasley lost imo.Perhaps Andrew helped.
After all, he did give his preferences to labour. That saved his bacon possibly.
All in the past. People need to think more for themselves.

*Kerry O'Brien would have ....*

Be it Kerry, Tom, Dick or Harry unless there’s an alternative programme put on the table with the right players backing it nothing will change.


*You also seem to think that people can abandon their jobs to do what you want them to do.*

wrong- I want the peoples who’s paid’ jobs are to make a difference- to get off their bums and support reopening plants.

Forget lobbying the Government with complaints of Animal cruelty because we both know they don’t give a dam.

*you could use some business advice.*
Yeh perhaps.. After all nobody expects an in confidence privy biz discussion to state Government leaked.

*For example, have you tried to speak to Wirthless by phone?*
&#61514;
Yup, spoke to him once on his mobile. Asked aren’t you going to check the sheep on the Cormo at the new destination?
Hugh replied quickly as a whip - no the government won’t let me.

Took it to Government. They said, we assure you nobody stopped Hugh going anywhere. So ‘somebody’ told pokies

*Or Lynn Bradshaw? Or Handle with Care?*
Nicky
You fail to grasp the people your talking about wages are made up by a 50 50 % between state and federal Government.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Thursday, 20 November 2008 11:50:25 PM
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Nicky

Whatever you think, I don`t say things, that are not true.
I couldn`t afford to. Many people would love to see pale end for all sorts of reasons.
RSPCA staff do a great job for dogs and cats. I have some best friends within them.

We ARE however looking at the STRUCTURE of RSPCA eg To 'whom' are they answerable to? How is the board 'structured.'

What are the roles of the 'special ministers' that report RSPCA matters back to Government ....
I had 'hoped' to enlighten some of the members of animal groups. Make them ask themselves is there more I could be doing other than sending my monthly membership.

As for talking to Hugh, RSPCA National, Animals Australia.

We will do that 'one day'. On something like insight (SBS) so the public can see everything out in the open.




Facts are the HKM programe was established to 'help' Animals Australia and RSPCA phase out live and replace it with chilled.

They 'knew' about this project.

Apart from RSPCA QLD CEO 'nobody' wanted to know about it.

Then after years of our lawyers and our invitations to meet our Muslim leaders under the Animal Welfare MOU Handle with Care were arranging to meet with the same Muslim leaders 'without us.'

Our lawyers worked long and hard giving their own time. THEY have all the background knowledge.

So WHY did Handle with Care 'exclude' pale who was the ONLY group to have ever got this far. (The very group that started this work.)

Or= Why did WSPA reject pale as members.

Was it ego`s- or something more. I haven`t made up my mind.

What I 'do know' is we could have been further advanced had everybody 'worked together' for the animals.

pale is NOT under the control of the Government or 'anybody' else and nothing and nobody will gag us from the truth.- ever!

PS Nicky we only applied for wspa membership in order to have their rejection 'in writing.':)

Hugh of course was president of WSPA Australia and your buddies held the other votes.

Just for the record.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 21 November 2008 7:33:06 AM
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NickyDickey
If your serious about bringing live exports to an end-

Check out where the abattoirs are within your own areas - or further.
Ring them and ask them would the like more business.

Tell them there are people interested in buying direct who will put in the funds to bring the plant up to export standards + do the paperwork.

Don’t try to go any further that that.

Most of these blokes have their own supply of stock.....

Then contact our office and we will arrange Muslim delegates to meet you along with a Halal Certifier rep.

You don’t ever have to contact us again if you don’t want to.

You can work with your Muslim contacts direct.

You will act as a guide while they are in town.

Probably arrange accommodation given you all know your own areas.
Later all going well, you will go with the delegates and the Halal certifier to meet with the farmers.

*All you have to do is go along and be yourself.* *Leave the farmers and Muslims to talk uninterrupted.*

Provide some soft drink and Halal nibbles which is all paid for.

Once a deal is struck you can work on shorter transport water shade etc....

YOU make recommendations you think will improve conditions for animals.
You can do as little or as much as you like within this area.

Two days a month would be a big help. Certifications will be issued to anybody wanting to become a volunteer Halal Inspector for 'Animal Welfare.'

There will be paid positions on the table later.
That does 'not' include slaughtering methods which we will discuss later.

Each plant will have a worm farm for environmental waste. Hopefully each farmer will also look at Halal vegetables.

Later those vegetables will produce Halal cosmetic as well…. (There is enormous potential in this particular project) You may like to be part of that.

Remember you can do as much or as little as you wish.



Just thought would post a bit about the HKM project.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 21 November 2008 8:35:26 AM
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I think I agree with Rojo's comment; why is it okay to brutalise pigs in Australia and not dogs and cats?

PALE, you say you want to get into abattoirs - some time ago, I advised that there were abattoirs down in Tasmania for sale, which are reportedly already halal accredited and you never explained why you did not pursue that. I heard they were eventually sold to the Swift (Brazilian) group. They were there for the taking.

I have absolutely no idea why PALE was declined membership of WSPA, perhaps you could enlighten us, you only say that this occurred, never why. If Wirthless spoke to you once on the phone why have you not tried again? And what evidence is there that Handle with Care has been meeting with Muslim leaders behind your back? So far as I know there is no authentic public information about that.

One thing you could get your Muslim leader friends to do would be to state publicly that animals blessed by a Catholic priest are "haram" (following through on Mark Pearson's initiative in Fremantle recently). Unless you believe that because it wasn't your idea you don't want to be part of it (background story is at www.liveexportshame.com). It would only need one more rejected ship.

There is also the small matter of rampant pirate activity in the Gulf of Aden and off the coast of East Africa, seizing commercial ships - but does it stop the live export shippers? Of course not.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 21 November 2008 11:27:45 AM
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*There is also the small matter of rampant pirate activity in the Gulf of Aden and off the coast of East Africa, seizing commercial ships - but does it stop the live export shippers? Of course not.*

Aha Nicky, we have a few pirates, so stop global trade!

Luckily extremists like you don't have too much say in the running
of Govt, or what a disaster it would be!

There is of course an answer to the pirates, which the Indians
understood and everyone else is just too PC to accept. Sink
their boats and they will soon realise that piracy does not
pay.

Its the laws of the jungle in Somalia, so its laws of the jungle
that you need to apply in this case. Ending world trade is not
the answer, for you would soon complain if there was not petrol
for your car.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 21 November 2008 6:32:43 PM
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* agree with Rojo's …
Dog’s cats sold for experiments - worse.

I wasn’t aware of your interest in plants. What makes you think our people ‘didn’t’ go.

*I have absolutely no idea why PALE was declined membership of WSPA, perhaps you could enlighten us; you only say that this occurred, never why.

Good question. Thats something only ‘they’ can answer.… If you like, we’ll arrange for your question to be asked in public, on insight, or similar with Hugh and crew present, to ensure a answer.
Can’t be fairer than that.



Apparently our project to reopen plants doesn’t sit well.

Kind of interesting when you consider all sites state replace live with chilled carcass.

If Wirthless spoke to you once on the phone why have you not tried again?*

• Talk to him about what.

• -What possible USE could that be for the animals?


Do you think he might explain why he and RSPCA National ignored, rejected, invitations when he was president of RSPCA and attempts to include them in the Animal Welfare MOU with Muslim Leaders.



We set it up for RSPCA National then Animals Australia to take over. That`s an absolute fact.!

*And what evidence is there that Handle with Care has been meeting with Muslim leaders behind your back? *

In writing- on letter head. Confirmation from a Muslim Leader to lawyer.

• So far as I know there is no authentic public information about that.*

We don’t see it to be in the interests of the animals. YET.

One thing you could get your Muslim leader friends …..
Mark`s great. Love to see him and Lyn heading Animal Welfare.
They got it wrong about the priest.( No problem just so long as its also blessed by Allah- sorry.)

*There is also the small matter of rampant pirate …..

Ar, the word must be out those ships were sent by the Mikly Bar kid! who`s in bed with their buddies from Landmark AWB Elders etc IMO -like the previous Government in return for donations and votes.

Money speaks all languages.

Doesn’t it Mr Rudd.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 21 November 2008 6:46:10 PM
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PALE, the best information available is that PALE did not pursue the Victorian and Tasmanian slaughterhouses that were for sale. And it is you who complaints that High Wirth will not speak with you. If you think you can get him to comment publicly, I'd say go for it.

As for the priest, reports indicate both the exporters and AQIS were quite put out by it

Yabby, as usual your argument is worthless - I can just see the Australian Navy going after Somalian pirates. And I can live without petrol for my car, as it happens.

Your argument about your dog is even more fatuous. You are subjecting a dog to risks of cancer, and breeding puppies, some of whom you will no doubt kill, for the sake of your own self-aggrandizement. It has nothing to do with your dog living a "natural, happy life". Do try to get a grip on your ego.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 21 November 2008 10:41:58 PM
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Nicky

Grant wouldn’t be privy to that.
Your doing your higher moral ground thingy again.

I observe your perhaps disingenuous.

You declined contact with Robert the lawyer at his invitation. You declined meetings with AFIC

Glenys AFAIK didn’t respond to Lawyes when offered services of the best QCs this country has to offer re the WA case.



Do you want to know what I ‘really think’ about Animal Welfare in General.

I think it’s a load of political bullSH!.

You`v had goes at us claiming Oo, Ah, pale isn’t on the boards. (*“ Bored” being the key word to me*)

Nicky how long can these people sit on a board discussing whether or not a pig gets 1/4 or 1/2 inch of cage space.

What a frigging joke. How self patronising is that. This crap has been going on for over twenty bloody years while these animals continue to suffer!

What about attendance to 'so called' animal welfare seminars hosted by Livecourpe etc...

I mean wouldn’t you think SOMEONE tell them to stick it where the sun don’t shine.


You all tagged Hugh with the name Dr Wirthless well before we came along.

Now if that’s the feeling why would all of you agree to him heading the Handle with Care.



Just thought I would point out the bleeding obvious.



I never complained Hugh wouldn’t speak to me. Believe me if I wanted to speak with him I would!

I ask you again just what is it you think he can do.?

Haven’t we already agreed he’s as effective as tits on a bull.

I will go for it when we are good and ready. When it can have some positive impact for the animals...

*As for the priest, *
I am sure they were pissed:)

Mark Pearson is smart enough to know the future for animal welfare lies within the Church.

I would encourage him into politics.

However animal welfare groups do not have the power to change anything unless they alien themselves much more closely with the red meat industry.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 22 November 2008 9:21:48 AM
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Nicky dear, do try and get a grip on some kind of rational thinking,
for it is you who is making a fool of yourself.

Fact is that you live in a world of interdependance and no, the
world around you cannot as yet live without cars etc, so you rely
on global trade as much as anyone else.

As to your ignorance about my dog, she's doing pretty well
living naturally thank you, unlike your city pooches.

Plenty of exercise, fun chasing rabbits etc, natural food like
meat and she is thriving, no cancers and all the other things
you lose sleep over. I remind you that too much anxiety leads
to cancer, so don't land up dying of worry.

She's also a happy mom, enjoying her pups to the max, but
perhaps the joys of motherhood is something that you don't understand,
for your own twisted reasons. I remind you, its very natural.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 22 November 2008 10:29:45 AM
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Nicky

Before I withdraw from Animal Welfare (which I’m considering) and
while I’m in the mood. - I don’t believe your working alone.

Records show you’ve rubbished pale at every opportunity instead of being glad of working with likeminded people. Attention Glenyse.

Anybody who really loved animals wouldn’t spend their energies trying to get RID of animal lovers.

When pale responded, you tell me, we are not, helping animals by creating disharmony.

(What a bleeding joke.)

I will always uphold the view your soul purpose by coming in here using a false name to stick it up pale for your buddies.

I said pls tell animal angels and the others there’s a pad and base of accommodation for them situated close to a major transport company.

(We even stuck an air com in and a swimming pool Satellite phone .

No interest.

When I post FACTS about MLA to Yabby. no interest.

I wish I could have helped progress things but your personalities forbid it.

Polite little post cards to the PM wont cut it – sorry.

How ‘awfully’ PC

I liked it better in the old days when a few of the farmers punched to living crap out of some of these cruel bastardise!.



Now Nicky rushes in to respond with =

= Pale we all have our own ways....

Just tell us 'your' programme pls Nicky?

Other than writing the usual letters for twenty years!

You don’t have one do you?

The best Handle with Care came up with was trying to barge in on our MOU and take the credit for our hard efforts instead of responding to our dozens of open invitations for years prior creating havic for the Muslim leaders as well.

Then you say why dont you talk to Hugh. Hilarious!

We`ll talk to him all right WHEN it suites US in front of the Australian public.

You need new leadership like Mark Pearson or someone ANYONE with a PLAN!not only based on veggies.

You need new leadership or at least ‘some’ leadership!

So until you all start DOING something like we have.

shutup
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 22 November 2008 11:19:04 AM
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Just a brief response for now. PALE, has it NEVER occurred to you that people want nothing to do with you because of your abusive attitude, incoherent ramblings, and "my way or no way" approach? No-one wants to get tied up in these constant tirades of abuse and paranoia, and therefore no-one will take the risk of contacting your organisation directly so that you can relentlessly pursue them. I would imagine that no-one would want to be beholden to PALE in any way, particularly in terms of any co-location.

I have said from the beginning that I do not want contact with your organisation. As it happens, (I assume you mean) Grant Courtney was not my source of information. It certainly suggests that PALE is in fact all talk and no action though.

You have done more to damage the animal welfare movement than anyone else, single or group, in this country by continually attempting to sabotage and discredit anyone and everyone involved at every opportunity. And that isn't "creating disharmony"?

A quick search of news records around the country in recent times reveals not one mention of your organisation and what if anything it has done - but dozens about Animals Australia, PETA and Animal Liberation. And who was it who got the facts out on the several documentaries on which the subject has appeared? It was not PALE.

I have no idea how Wirthless came to be the spokesperson for Handle with Care, but I assume it was as a result of his undoubted (but probably undeserved) profile. As such there is not much you can do about it - other than your current sniping from the backblocks of this forum.

I'm afraid you brings these criticisms upon yourself.

Nick
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 22 November 2008 1:40:26 PM
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*And that isn't "creating disharmony"?*

AA started it by instructing groups they couldn’t speak with PALE

We were warned before we opened to expect that type of behaviour.


You require people with a background and knowledge of the meat industry.

+someone who can join the dots of the different companies.

What a missed opportunity the AWB enquiry was.






*PETA and Animal Liberation. ….

Nicky you SAY you’re not speaking for AA then you speak for them. Make up your mind.

If you’re talking about the investigations then imo that was as a result of PALE approaching AA WITH Federal authorities involved.


Lyn`s doing a great job and so is Mark but you need to stop this anti pale campaign because we are working to reopen plants.

What’s been done in both the investigations and the court stuff is just a mini programme of what we put to them.

You want the truth? You cant handle the truth. Your either telling lies or you wouldn’t know what`s gone on.
Which one is it?

Either doesn’t suite the agenda’s of the massive ego`s for others to help animals OR it’s a political joke.Take your pick.

*A quick search of news records *

You and your darn Goggles!

*Animals Australia, PETA and Animal Liberation. *

Yes and their ALL opposed to pale working to reopen plants.
THAT’S what’s wrong. Can’t you see this is either incredibly stupid or their a political joke!



I don’t care what is said on their sites I have letters claiming they COULD NEVER be involved in working to reopen plants.

Well here`s NEWS Until somebody helps to do just that nothings going to change.

*I have no idea how Wirthless came to be the spokesperson for Handle with Care*

Who cares but it ought to tell you 'something
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 22 November 2008 4:54:45 PM
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Yeah, right, PALE. As I said, all talk and no action. I was not speaking for AA, in fact I was referring to a number of contributors to this forum who regret the day they ever contacted PALE (does the Car Park ring any bells?).

The people in the animal advocacy movement with whom I in contact with have never been told by AA, Animal Liberation or anyone else not to have anything to do with PALE. That suggests that it is a conspiracy in your own mind.

As for being "stupid" or a "political joke", given that all the other groups mentioned seem to enjoy considerably more success than PALE, perhaps PALE should have a look at itself and its place in the movement - or rather, its lack of a place, and why that is. Also who in fact is the "political joke".

As I said, abuse and paranoia are not good looks, and are divisive and unhelpful. It is also rather presumptuous of PALE to suggest that it contributed to the success of the others' campaigns, in view of constant claims that they refuse to speak with you.

Your Muslim leaders and your lawyers also remain conspicuous by their absence. Have the former defected to Handle with Care?

I think that this tread has now descended into the usual repeated verbal invective from PALE, and served its purpose only before PALE entered it. Perhaps "retiring from animal welfare" would be the best thing you could do for the animals (after all, and apart from anything else, your stated objective is to slaughter them).

Yabby's strategies are much the same, only this time he has added a further dimension of self-aggrandizement, and further convinced those of us who have some empathy for animals that he is totally without a moral conscience. In fairness to him, however, your "questions" about MLA were too incoherent for anyone to be able to provide answers to. Actually - what WERE the questions? Veiled conspiracy theories that we have heard before and date back years, and not much else.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 22 November 2008 6:25:30 PM
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Gawd Nicky, you just can't help yourself, you really can't.

No morals, because I disagree with your fairyfloss, mollycoddled
view of the world? I remind you that your morals are simply
your opinions, which you have been unable to defend, other then
claiming because you believe it to be so.

I'd be just about convinced that you would have been one of those
little girls in kindergarten, who burst into tears at the slightest
thing, when us ruffian boys would play tricks on them. Sorry,
but I don't subscribe to your fairfloss worldview and take no
notice of your warped opinions.

My animals live and experience and enjoy their lives. Just this
afternoon the pups at 7 weeks, followed us up to the sheds. They
got squirted with water, they jumped and rolled in the puddles,
they came home buggered and happy.

Next thing the phone rang, a friend wants puppy no 5, as he'd heard
on the grapevine etc.

My morals are just fine Nicky and they can be justified and reasoned.
If you want to go through life as a nervous nellie, well so be it,
but don't expect the rest of the world to agree with your strange
outlook on life.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 22 November 2008 7:48:56 PM
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Yabby, there is simply no justification for bringing animals into the world to kill them. Whatever species they are. Your puppies may be luckier than some (in particular the 200,000 dogs needlessly destroyed in this country every year), but can you seriously say their mother had/will have a choice about whether she continues breeding with a dog of your choice, then dies prematurely of cancer? How many puppies will die in the course of that? That's natural? Get real.

I happen to think my dogs are exceptional, but I would not be irresponsible enough to breed from them for all those reasons.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 22 November 2008 10:32:45 PM
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*there is simply no justification for bringing animals into the world to kill them.*

Rubbish. As it happens, we humans land up eating millions of them.
Some I concede, don't lead happy lives, others lead very happy
lives. I doubt if they give a hoot, what happens to them after death,
for I certainly don't. We'll all be recycled, including you. That
is the reality. Some other species will eat your cadaver Nicky,
get used to it.

*then dies prematurely of cancer?*

Strange that the farm dogs around here are seldom sterilised and
most live to a ripe old age. You seem to be obsessed about your
fear of death.

* How many puppies will die in the course of that? *

Let me see, so far she's had two litters, two puppies have died.
I destroyed them with an axe when they were a couple of days old,
as mommy and pups were stressing due to 8 being too many.

Nicky, feel free to tie your own tubes, the world can only benefit,
but my dogs are doing just fine without your advice, thank you.
Posted by Yabby, Saturday, 22 November 2008 10:53:04 PM
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Heard it all before Yabby. And what a truly disgusting "human being" you are. You make the rest of us ashamed of being human.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 22 November 2008 11:24:43 PM
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(Does the Car Park ring any bells?).

Sure does, it’s where I’d like to meet you sometimes :)
kidding

*The people in ...


Started day one. Was rumoured because we supported RSPCA.

Later we were promoted to – “those Animal Killers”


Hugh addressed this inta fighting at a National Press conference well before we came along.



I didnt come here to beefup. You say we haven’t done enough. You`v no idea what we`ve done.
Our biggest problem is often people from overseas say we will be there in two days- pls arrange accommodation meetings and btw we want to travel to see 3 or 4 plants.

This might be for WA NSW etc… Its IMPOSSIBLE for us to travel in that much time.

We asked others request members to volunteer to help. (You`d know the Answer)

I defend pale and rightfully so. Our team works 7 days unpaid and kicks in from their own pockets. Not 'all' our work is opening abattoirs either.

*As for being "stupid" *….

If you say so Ok. Better at what fund raising?

. *It is also rather presumptuous *…

It’s simply the truth.

*Your Muslim leaders and your lawyers ...
Funny! that’s what they say about you

Have the former defected to Handle with Care?*
In which case someone would require either need to succeed or have deep pockets.


*Perhaps "retiring from animal welfare*
That’s a bit low but let’s analyse what you’re saying.
*your stated objective is to slaughter them).*

No, it`s to phase out live exports.
The only way to do that is to reopen abattoirs.

The difference is we are honest about our intentions.

You’re against animals being slaughtered at all Arnt you?

That’s Ok you can say it. Just be honest about it.

The problem with this type of thinking is that no matter how well intended it’s detrimental to the very animals we are trying to help.

Re MLA what I said was very clear.

#Its those things your people need to learn about to succeed.#
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 23 November 2008 12:19:21 AM
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*Heard it all before Yabby. And what a truly disgusting "human being" you are. You make the rest of us ashamed of being human. *

You probably have heard it all before, but don't have the intelligence
to understand it, Nicky. Fair enough, you can't help yourself.

I remind you that you are the extremist vegan here, with your own
little "moral" code, which hardly has much in common with human
philosophy.

More like a religious cult really. Way over the top, extremist,
intolerant and inflexible. Only Nicky and Co seemingly know, all
the rest of the world must be wrong.

Boo hoo.
Posted by Yabby, Sunday, 23 November 2008 3:01:34 PM
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http://www2b.abc.net.au/tmb/Client/Message.aspx?b=90&m=35&ps=20&dm=1&pd=3

Reading the above link _+ thinking of the stress endured by people who care.

You know Yabby If I recall I think Nicky said she looks after the Shame web site. Now if your post about chopping off the puppies head doesn`t make front page as an example of live exporters policies I`ll eat my hat.


I wonder at the difference in men- or women.
Knowing there are silent heroes and sensitive men like Mark Townend around helps but doesn’t` explain why others so different.

Can anybody tell me are there two laws in this country for cruelty to animals. Its possibly I guess that country areas and farmers have some sort code of practise that over rides state and federal laws regarding domestic animals but I am unaware if there is.

Perhaps a farmer could plead working dogs were part of his livelihood but in that case you would think there would be some need for control.

Take Yabby’s puppies for instance. If a person didn’t have their dog spade after being forced to knock a few on the head then you would have to be looking at some sort of change in the animal welfare act – wouldn’t you.

I mean if they really were working dogs you would think it would be in the farmer’s best interest to keep them and raise them surely.

I wonder if farmers have to pay their local council registration fees as people in the city.
I have never thought about it but perhaps we should introduce country dog registrations (not to control dogs walking into the neighbours) but to control how many puppies are bred or knocked on the head with an axe.
I think your comment Yabby would be most helpful to people like AA and others TBO.
It would certainly help the argument about live exports having a person who sees nothing wrong with it admit to knocking pups on the head with an axe.
Nobody could do a better job of explaining the problem to the Australian Public than you have.
Thank You
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 23 November 2008 10:50:30 PM
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PALE, I don't look after the Live Export Shame website, but you can become a member and post topics there, I think.

The facts of the matter are that if the RSPCA knew about it they probably would have prosecuted him, but these people simply get away with it because they're not caught and made an example of. Brutality is a way of life for these neanderthals. And that's because their dogs, not sheep, cattle, pigs or chickens

You are absolutely right - it shows the depths of depravity that these people are capable of.

As for the other arguments, I am not going to contribute to them them any longer; they've been done to death, nothing new or progressive has come out of them (again), and anything Yabby has to say is simply beneath contempt. I made a decision not to argue other topics with him, now I'm adding this.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 23 November 2008 11:16:28 PM
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Deary deary me, one of the things that amuse me about the animal
libber threads, is that I have seldom come across a bunch of
people who have less common sense then you lot!

Its exactly the opposite to working with a bunch of farmers,
who deal with adversity that you lot have never dreamed of and
show practical, every day problem solving skills that our twisted
sisters here would not even know about!

I'll explain it one more time, read it slowly, but perhaps you
still won't understand it.

My dog had 8 pups. It soom became evident after a couple of days,
that this number was far too many for her to nurse and feed,
the puppies with their eyes still closed, spent most of their
time competing with one another, so were clearly stressed and
so was mommy.

So I removed and destroyed two pups, the result being that mum
and her 6 remaining pups all thrived and continue to thrive.

Now if you don't have the common sense to understand the benefits
of that procedure, then I frankly can't help you ever learn
common sense.
Posted by Yabby, Monday, 24 November 2008 12:04:25 AM
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*So I removed and destroyed two pups, the result being*

Yabby
Could you not have bottle fed or given them as others to feed.

I take it these dogs are not bred for sale as working dogs.

In which case I why do you bother to bring these pups into the world at all.
You have often spoken about over population in the world so I would have thought that might include dogs.

Looking at your post I see something else. That’s the lack of concern to the fact you would have ‘known’ your comment would deeply upset Nicky.

I understand you two often disagree but to me you showed the same callus disregard to her as the puppies.

I suppose it possible that you lack the gene in your brain that links to compassion. I am not trying to offend here just understand you.
We have always known there is a link between animal abuse and abuse to people.
Mostly it’s about control
Ask yourself this- What went through your brain as you decided to take these pups and chop their heads off with an axe.

Did you make a quick decision because things were not going your way perhaps? I seem to remember you saying long ago your Dad did something almost the same to your pet rat ( think it was).

Do you think it’s possible you’re still angry about that and this s your way of taking control? You probably wont answer this but what IS the law regarding farmers and their dogs.

Are farmers permitted to destroy not only sheep cattle but dogs and cats as well?

Nicky
I lost my best friend today. I had her twenty years. I am only telling you this because I know you will understand I am not in the mood disagree either.

'I say things others can’t'- purposely . Just know if we can help to put Lyn in a position of real power and Mark P we will...
Not all is as you think.
I have only ever targeted two people basically.

Good reason for that.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 25 November 2008 12:57:11 AM
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PALE, I am so sorry to hear about your best friend. Was it a human or animal friend?

With regard to Yabby's puppies, farmers want the community to take them and their "problems" seriously. I would suggest that the vast majority of the community would be as sickened and disgusted as I am by his callous actions. And such actions would not be unusual in those of his mentality. Just one step back from the monstrous thugs about whom this thread was started really.

I have raised a litter of puppies who were abandoned and orphaned (the owner of the mother was going into sheep farming and shot her). They were the size of guinea pigs, with their eyes still closed. We bottle fed them at two hourly intervals for as long as necessary, and they grew up to thrive in great new homes. They are border collie type mixes. Arguably a better solution to chopping the heads off tiny, defenceless puppies.

Yabby has also the singular view that only farmers deal with "adversity"; he has no concept of the wider view, only his own interests, and no notion of the adversity we all face in our daily lives. I won't go into the "adversities" I have faced at various times in my life.

PALE, I hope things get better for you. A cuddle with a dog always works for me.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 25 November 2008 1:59:27 PM
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*Yabby has also the singular view that only farmers deal with "adversity"; he has no concept of the wider view,*

Err actually Yabby has a very broad outlook, as he has lived
in various countries, in cities and in the country.

Farming is an extremely tough business. Nicky clearly has never
had her year's pay wiped out by a night of frost, a drought,
a flood, a rust outbreak, a collapse in the market, plus
a long list of other challenges.

If the Govt did not pay you for your years work Nicky, you
might realise how tough farming can be.

What you two have still not digested is that we are looking
at things from very different perspectives. I accept your
emotional engulfment and your maternal instincts, whatever
floats your boats, but I do not accept that you think it is
the only way to live and condem me for not accepting the same.

I suggest that both of you read Darwin's "Origin of Species",
it would enlighten both of you to the realities of this world.

Fact is, far more of any species will be born, then can ever
survive. New life will always be created in far greater numbers
then is sustainable. Resources will limit the number of survivors,
that is nature at its core. I accept death as I accept birth,
as cycles of life, you girls clearly can't deal with it.

That is your problem, not mine.

I agree with Darwin. You girls seem highly hormonal and maternal.
Fair enough, but perhaps you both need to learn tolerance.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 25 November 2008 2:28:09 PM
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Thanks Nicky,

I`m shattered. That sort grief that aches from the inside to the outside if you know what I mean.
Her name was bouncer but a girl. She was a lorikeet. Worse still I am not sure she didn’t smoother. She always slept with me in her pillow case.

Some how a big pillow was on top her. She was old and I am not sure it was that but still the thought of having killed my best friend haunts me. What if.

Bouncer was so smart I never taught her to say one word! She didn`t say anything out of context.

Once when helping a farmer move his draught horses from the drought I drove his car which over with overloaded with hay.

He went ahead with the horses and gear. It was treacherous weather and we were going down a steep windy mountain. As the car slid out of control into a semi he was blowing on his fog horn. In those few moments I thought of my Mum and Dad and then terror as to who would care for my 42 horse’s two donkeys and 3 mules.

The fog horn woke bouncer as she was sleeping on the top of the passages seat.
I looked at her and saw fear in eye little eyes. Then she screamed-
OHSHIT"
Despite the position we were in I couldn’t stop laughing.
That wasn’t something she ever said.

Somehow the truck managed to get off the side.

Everybody knew Bouncer as a person. Holding a service tomorrow. (God cant you just hear Yabby :))

*PALE, I hope things get better for you. A cuddle with a dog always works for me*
I was thinking perhaps of saving a life but I feel disloyal to Bounce.

*You girls seem highly hormonal and maternal.*

You patronising little prick. That would indicate women who do nothing but raise selfish little brats like you. Well you’d be wrong.



You didn’t answer my question. Are farmers under a different code of practise for domestic animals?



Perhaps its under MLA code for farmers- Yes?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 25 November 2008 3:55:43 PM
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PALE, I think the facts are that there is no code of practice for the slaughter of defenceless puppies because God help the farmers if the public found about how widespread and how brutal it could be.

I wish the public had the same compunction about sheep, pigs, cattle, goats, chickens and other animals. Why is it that people will stay in freezing water overnight to try and save a beached whale then go home and eat a cooked roast?

Different perceptions of life and death have nothing to do with it. These people are little better than the thugs currently on trial in Queensland (who are now trying to mount an insanity defence ... I rest my case).

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 25 November 2008 6:44:43 PM
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*he has lived
in various countries, in cities and in the country.*
Oh, so that`s where you learned your Animal Husbandry skills.



Nicky
I think you would be surprised by how many farmers would walk away from the company of a bloke who chopped the heads off puppies with an axe.

Most will say in their typical few words -"not much."

Just like they say about live exports.

A few weeks ago the property in the bush I went to check on a stock truck. Less less than impressed upon return because the roof still wasn`t` started.

One of the farmer had to go because a calf had cut itself in a fence. We are talking over 200 return trip. So some care.

*I wish the public had the same compunction about sheep, pigs, cattle, goats, chickens and other animals.*

Most do, but they trust the Government are telling the truth that strict codes of animal welfare practises apply and people like you and myself are just trouble makers. - extremist .


If the public were given a video of poultry, intensive pork, feed lots, and most abattoirs they would be totally outraged.

All hell would break loose.

People simply accept animals are treated humanly because the DPI and Government tell them they are.

People are pretty self involved but but if you push the information under their noses THEN they act.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 25 November 2008 10:54:22 PM
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pale,

"People, who know animals will tell you they think, feel in a way that often has a higher understanding than people."

An apt description, for people see what they want to see and often anthropomorphise their animals. It gets a bit fanatical when they actually ascribe ESP or the like to animals. No doubt animals are good listeners, what choice do they have? When you get some feedback, other than appreciation for your presence, how is that higher understanding displayed?
I'm sure it's only a matter of time until we capitalise on the canine grasp of Quantum physics.

"Keep that up you’ll turn me too into a veggie."

pale, if you can't accept dog meat consumption then you really should be a veggie. A dog can be raised and killed as humanely as any other animal. It's elevated senses of smell and hearing may well require additional welfare provision however.
Even though I have no desire to eat dog, I'm in no position to criticise those who wish to. What I can ask is that the dogs, cats or whatever are raised with appropriate welfare standards - which are sadly lacking in many dog eating countries. No animal beit dog, pig or cow should endure a life full of misery.

I think people should respect the animals they eat, and understand why they are eating them. Speciesism notwithstanding. What is food to one may be anothers cherished pet.

If you don't like reopening abattoirs you really are in the wrong industry.
Posted by rojo, Thursday, 27 November 2008 11:43:26 PM
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http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/07/14/1058034941248.html

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/talks/natint/stories/s1012873.htm

ROJOYABBY
Reopening abattoirs is the only way to control how Animals are treated. Pls remember the project is to also promote HKM Vegetables Cosmetics…

.Long term we believe there will be a greater local and export return for the farmer in Halal vegetable farms than meat as the world develops. Australia’s future will be living on a pack of mixed veggies from China if we can get them otherwise.

Our organisation is involved in far more than animal welfare. We are involved in working to make Australia a free and safe place for everybody and to create a strong work place with good infrastructure which also includes by is not exclusively abattoirs.

We are delighted the QLD head of Nab for example is encouraging investment in our aboriginal and regional areas. This is just one of many projects.
In the thread on Malaysia I noticed there were few comments from those who claim to be informed regarding free trade live exports and other matters.

Let me spell it out for you. We have the opportunity to work united with good Muslim leaders in Australia to fight off the extremists taking control. If we do not stand united with these people who strongly support creating our own Australian Halal label and slaughtering here in Australia we will not win against such threats.

As for your other comments it’s a matter of record animals have long been able to predict such things as weather etc.

The Government simply MUST stop AQIS dishing out Halal Accreditations over the phone. The AWB enquiry showed s all that our Government do NOT have the knowledge most of the time as to whom they are dealing with.
When Rudd was given the information as he was scrambling for something on Downer and Howard he ran and hid instead of informing the public.

'Thank You' once again for your comments on such things as eating dogs.
All your comments will go on posters around the world to highlight
the attitudes those who supporting the barbaric Live Animal Export Trade.

We cant thank You enough.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 28 November 2008 8:29:02 AM
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I think there are some rights and wrongs in the last two posts.

Firstly, Rojo, I agree with you on the issue of speciesism - I have a problem with people eating dogs, but I do not eat any animals. That does not necessarily place me on a higher moral ground; I am pragmatic enough to know that people are not going to stop eating animals any time soon. But we raise pigs and chickens in appalling conditions, not much better than those who farm dogs in Asia. We confine grazing animals - sheep and cattle in feedlots - all are denied anything approaching their natural behaviours. Pigs are known to be more intelligent and sensitive than dogs (and have better cognitive skills than 3-year old children). Chickens are bright, curious inquisitive birds who form their own unique relationships (mine certainly do(:)

As for anthropomorphism, I remember reading at the time of the tsunami, those grazing animals in those countries who could do so moved themselves to higher, safer ground. So PALE, you are quite right about that. And I hope you are feeling better.

It seems that Yabby might have developed a glimmer of understanding in that rather dull, wholly egocentric mind of his that chopping puppies' heads off with an axe for no better reason than they did not suit his purpose at the time offends anyone of common decency, and he has removed himself from this thread without satisfactorily answering the questions asked of him. Nothing unusual about that, I guess.

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 28 November 2008 5:42:02 PM
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Err Nicky, my posts clearly go over your head, for I have answered
any intelligent questions asked of me.

The fact that I don't respond to Gertrude has more to do with it
being a total waste of time. I certainly can't make much sense
of her mumbo jumbo and it seems that nobody else can either.
I've told her before that its not worth the bother to debate with
her, I prefer more intelligent OLO posters. She seemingly takes
no notice.

Now, to go over the facts again, given that you have a problem
with understanding them the first time.

Mommy was clearly stressed by too many pups and so were they.
Both immediately benefitted when I took action to get rid of two pups.

A puppy at two days old, with its eyes closed, is about 3-4
inches long. It is not as large as a guinea pig, not even the size
of a rat. A sharp axe is a perfectly painless and humane way of
disposing of a puppy of that age. No, I don't drown them, no I don't
gas them, no I don't shoot them. No, I don't raise them on a bottle
either.

I remind you once again of Darwin's Origin of Species. He wisely
notes that far more of any species will be created, then can ever
survive. Death is part of the cycle of life, especially amongst the
young. Every creature needs to make a living somehow and there will
not be enough resources to raise them all. The significance of
these fundamentals in this debate, clearly go way over your head,
as your maternal instincts dominate. That is your problem, not
my problem.
Posted by Yabby, Friday, 28 November 2008 7:31:09 PM
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Yabby
Deaths nothing to do with it. It’s the 'cruelty' before death that some insensitive morons simply can’t understand.

If the cap fits...

Yabby you won’t debate me on MLA AWB the regional grants lurks and perks that’s correct. Nor will you comment on ABA long demands for a Royal Commission into MLA/.
Frankly Nicky seems to understand more than you about the MLA system.

The reason you 'think' I am talking mumbo jumbo is as you say YOU can’t understand.


I ask you again have you ever discussed anything to do with exporting meat with heads of MLA, Austrade, The CEO of Elders, Or the Muslim Leaders, AWB Heads.

Have you ever had the head of MLA from the Middle East personally call you to discuss red meat to ME.

I will let you in on this much- by average the Muslim People both here and overseas are MILES ahead of you lot. They are informed intelligent.

Nicky
Thanks for your thoughts. I wont lie no, but it helps knowing someone understands.
Speaking of which Nicky (this is important)- my sister sent me to see Australia to try to cheer me up...
Nicole Kidmann and Hugh Jackson clearly support Animal Cruelty.

*I will open a thread about this soon.*

Nicole could said NO to certain parts.

Australia is not just about aboriginal kids it a blatant live Export promotion.

We were were disgusted as *she played the part of running cattle onto the *ship.

She also chose to accept the part of holding a cow down and *sticking it with a *branding iron.

* This film must be exposed for what it is.*

I am afraid it all became too much when the people in the theatre started clapping at the end.

So I blocked the only exist with my car and got out and gave a speech on live exports.

Nicole Kidmann has just committed political suicide.

The aboriginal people and child in the show were the real stars-‘beautiful.’
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Friday, 28 November 2008 11:40:35 PM
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Back to your lies Yabby.

There is no mumbo jumbo about pales comments.

They are right there for MLA and you to dispute up front. Very clear to understand.

1 You understood when I said MLA officials told us live exports was Mark Vaile’s baby. (The then Minister of trade)

2 You understood when I said MLA refused to assist with a red meat programme and share farm venture with Kuwait+ the reason given was that it was Mark ‘personally’ baby to arranged ships loads of live sheep to Kuwait.
To Quote MLA it was a Government to Government arrangement.

The point being MLA and Austrade are not supposed to be guided by personal biz of the then or now Minister.


Especially when that may disadvantage other companies. They are supposed to be working for the companies within that industry.

Now what part of that comment don’t you understand?

I also told you the head of MLA in the ME contacted us by phone and what he said
Nothing there to get confused about either.

Would you like me to repeat what Ian said again just so you’re not confused?

Did you understand also what I told you Peter McGauran’s advisor said upon arriving in QLD to meet with our company.

This was in relation to a meeting that we were informed took place just two days prior with Dr Hugh Wirth (as President of WSPA at the time for Australia and Allan RSPCA CEO UK)

http://www.rspca.com.au/about/ourwork_int.asp

Tell me regarding those couple of comments which part you cant understand.

You don’t want to discuss what Ian said or David of MLA or what the Ministers advisor told us.

There is No mumbo jumbo . You just don’t wish to go there.

Probably for no other reason other than you really don’t understand anything on that level IMO.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Saturday, 29 November 2008 8:01:30 AM
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Hi Nicky, our chooks in the backyard have a great life too, apart from the odd wedgie attack. I couldn't in honesty call them bright, but that could simply be breed. Plymouth rocks look good if nothing else.

"As for anthropomorphism, I remember reading at the time of the tsunami, those grazing animals in those countries who could do so moved themselves to higher, safer ground."

And what do you conclude from this- they had a premonition, knew how far inland the waters would come?
Animals do have abilities that are better atuned than humans, homing pigeons sense of direction for instance, dog sense of smell, and no doubt ground vibrations will be picked up by grazing herbivores as part of their defence mechanism.
Humans tend to override instinct with curiosity- ooh the tide is so low lets go and have a look.
Posted by rojo, Sunday, 30 November 2008 10:31:01 AM
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Handle with Care live export forum ...

http://www.tangler.com/forum/stop-live-export

Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Sunday, 30 November 2008 4:40:39 PM
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Certainly "will"
Tar.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 2 December 2008 10:04:31 AM
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News, information and petition on the Peanut case, everyone.

http://www.facebook.com/home.php#/group.php?gid=36602960671&ref=ts

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Tuesday, 2 December 2008 12:47:03 PM
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Nicky
Thanks
Trying to get ours there but cant promise for others.
Good Work!
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Sunday, 7 December 2008 10:51:13 AM
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Hi Pale
As I understand it the people attending are ordinary, everyday Australians who want these thugs locked up and the key thrown away.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 8 December 2008 3:22:28 PM
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Hi Nicky

I understand what you are saying. Do you know if any people are getting on talk back radio to let other members of the public know.

BTW People against Live Exports are just ordinary people too.
We had to do the NFP in order for insurance for volunteers.
Perhaps we could help pay for some adds in the local papers informing the public this case is on.
What do you think?
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Monday, 8 December 2008 8:04:12 PM
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Hi PALE
I think you can only publicise stuff that is already in the public arena - in some states court lists are available on the internet the day before.

I don't know Queensland's legislation in this sort of thing (sub-judace) either. Whatever laws you have relating to evidence may indicate that any "inside knowledge" could compromise the case. For example, you wouldn't post photos relating to a current case on a website - only after it was over.

Someone at RSPCA Queensland would be a good starting point about what will help or what could hinder the case, or perhaps one of the lawyers you have might have some ideas.

Talkback radio would be good, but I don't know when the case is next up for mention or for hearing. I did hear that one of these people is in a mental facility though, no doubt working up to a "diminished responsibility" claim. That financier in Sydney got away with mutilating and butchering dozens of rabbits (on appeal) because he was addicted to methamphetamine. I wrote to the Attorney General pointing out that methamphetamine use is a lifestyle choice, not a mental illness.

Cheers
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Monday, 8 December 2008 10:37:43 PM
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Nicky

Thanks Will try to find out who`s sitting on the day. As you know we only do the live exports with RSPCA QLD.

See what we can do with talk back.

Wouldnt hurt for it to be heard on other state radios.After all the' public 'are are free to express their feelings.

Where did you say the parasite was admitted.
Posted by People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming, Tuesday, 9 December 2008 12:22:51 AM
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