Originally posted by Boaz_David

"the Sunni & Shia have been fighting for a millenium (and long before the advent of Mohammed)"

The terms 'sunni' and Shia only have meaning in connection with Islam, which came from Mohammad.. so I'm not sure what ur driving at there.

I don't want your credibility diminished, because of other things you say which seem helpful, you might like to re look at that one.

True, to an extent at least. I would have explained that more fully, but 350 words really doesn't give one that choice.

One thing which not many will have noticed is that the current strife is between different ethnic/language groups, the conflict between which predates their latest choice of organised religion by some significant period.

This can be traced through history, well before Persians, Philistines, Phoenecians, Babylonians, Trojans, Kurds, etc (and the various varieties upon the same theme) adopted Islam. Funnily enough very little attention is paid by most commentator's to this historical aspect of the entire conflict/region, which is difficult to understand, given that the modern day power blocks and conflicts are so similar to those throughout history (with many of the same participants - which is understandable only if one looks at the historical tensions which precipitated the schism within the various branches of Islam - so similar to that within the Eastern & Western Christian Churches ie. the Greeks & Romans).

The coming conflict truly scares the hell out of a lot of people, rationality is not a pre-requisite to statemanship in the region under discussion and nuclear weapons will not fit well into the power structure.

PaulL,

You ask…“Can you honestly suggest that Israel and the US are not at abnormally high risk if Iran succeeds in gaining nukes??”

Can I ask instead “Can you honestly suggest that Iran is not at abnormally high risk from the U.S. and Israel unless it succeeds in gaining nukes??”

I am concerned by your statement that the torture ‘we’ engaged in was “unprofessional, unnecessary and may be counterproductive,”. Mate it was torture! I am old enough to remember when this country prided itself on its abhorrence of this criminal act and rightly condemned countries that engaged in it. I think of it more as vile, inhuman, despicable and inexcusable.

It would seem the greater the perceived threat the greater the excuses for torture but surely an Iranian might say while it is unfortunate we have torture in our country the threats are real and of far greater magnitude that those you experience in yours.

Although I deplore many of the actions of the Israeli Government their judicial system must get some kudos for moderating the excesses of its forces, for instance the banning of the use of human shields which had gone on for so long.

You say “You forget that the US was only in the Straits of Hormuz because Iran was blowing up international shipping. In this way Iran was effectively holding the world to ransom, again.” Both Iran and Iraq were trying to cripple each others economy by stopping oil exports, reasonable acts in time of war one would have thought though one has to wonder why the Cuba Blockade continues to this day. The very fact Iraq hit the American ship shows it was actively seeking out shipping targets. The U.S. was suppose to be neutral but ended up destroying Iranian oil platforms for which they were condemned internationally.

However it is easy to forget the Americans initially tried to stop Israel getting the bomb and it was actually France who did the dirty deed. I see little difference in the manner in which Israel gained nuclear capability and what Iran is doing now.

Dear Paul L....

mate.. you are totally wrong there.. I mean..did you know know that all these Ahmadinajad quotes are in fact FALSE FLAG operations?

- Iran is chasing nuclear weapons
- Iran is doing so in spite of UN resolutions to desist
- Iran refuses to negotiate on this point even though it has been offered free civilian nuclear technology
- Iran has explicitly and regularly threatened Israel’s existence
- Iran is the major supporter of Hezbollah, who attack Israel regularly
- Iran has other terrorist proxies carry out atrocities worldwide
- Ahmedinejhad was hand picked by Kamanei for the post of President, and together they have power to do whatever they like.
- Ahmedinejhad and Kamanei are absolute nutters who believe in the imminent and apocalyptic return of the Mehdi

You see.. its like this, the CIA with its close connection to Mossad, is in fact producing animated look alikes of Ahmadinajad, and George Lukas at Dream works is under secret contract to them to bring it all to life, and make us all live in fear so the "Imperialist US forces can further there demon empire in the peaceloving Middle East"

The Mehdi has no foundation in fact, and is the creation (Just like Al Qaeda) of the dark forces at the heart of the evil Bush and zionist entities.

Now..having provided abundant evidence of all this, and showing you how wrong you are, I hope we never hear a peep out of you again.

*wink*

Dear Haganah...I had a feeling it might be as you outlined in that last post.
Kind thanx.

Yes.. and this problem of course underlines the fundamental formula for failure of Islam as a system.

It's one thing to maintain that an Earthly Caliph will unite all Muslims into a super Ummha..its another to be sure he comes from the 'right family or tribe' and of course..that, in my understanding is where the Sunni/Shia power struggle came from.

I know that it arose 'ostensibly' over a dispute about succession to Mohammad, but it boiled down to 'which tribe/clan/family runs the show' in the end.

Could you introduce yourself a little for us? I'm guessing you are Israeli or Jewish.

I'm Christian, evangelical conservative protestant.

Welcome to OLO.

PaulL.>"I’ll go with the view held by most of the reputed international broadsheets"

Are these the same ones that reported on Iraq WMD? Your ad hominem on the source makes no sense if you read the content. It has the direct translation and Ahmadinejad's words. This was one source that reported it of many. If you want to go down this path you are quoting a single tabloid.

Your list of facts about Iran are really opinions...and those of a country that has already lied to the international community and launched an aggressive war on another nation (usa).

PaulL>"You therefore have formulated a circular argument. Iran wants nukes to “defend” itself."

No. The USA overthrew the Democratic government of Iran and installed a dictator in 1953. The USA aided Saddam Hussein in the Iran-Iraq war while he used chemical weapons and it also looks like they supplied some of these wmds or their components to Iraq. Iran have every reason to defend itself from aggressive nations.

Steel, I am sorry but it is the height of rudeness to require those who are arguing against you to provide the 'proof' upon which you base your argument, that said:

http://www.nytimes.com/library/world/mideast/041600iran-cia-index.html

Although it may suprise you, that actions taken by the CIA in the 1950's to remove a Soviet-Dominated Nationalist from taking power, which power was reinvested in the Shah, falls well short of what you suggest, the imposition of a Dictator - the monarchy in Iraq dated to the 15th century and prior to the CIA's interference had long exercised total control of the country

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shah_of_Iran

The Islamic Revolution seems to have been rather more violent than the CIA inspired counter-revolution, so I'd suggest the two should not be directly compared (especially as one simply returned a Country to where it had previously been).

You are right in saying that Iran has the right to defend itself, every sovereign nation has the right. It does not have the right to fund International Terrrorists and fund the murder of thousands of people. That said, the fundamental right to self-defence is valid, as is that of the State of Israel. The only difference is whether Iran is mixing up ambition and ability, I think it just might be. Although if the recently resurgent Russians get involved directly, who knows (they do owe America one for what happened in Afghanistan in the 80's).

Boaz, just another jewish university student (mature age).