Thank you for the reply,

If I may beg your indulgence again.

Given your answer and in light of Haganah Bet’s history, I am interested in how you would regard an Australian citizen returning to Gaza to fight for Hamas?

You wrote, “It may be counter-intuitive, but lasting peace is only ever derived from strength, not weakness (eg.Begin-Sadaat). Peace (as opposed to a cease-fire/truce) only lasts when neither party can afford to breach it.”

Given the support of the U.S. to Israel which consumes ½ of its foreign ‘aid’ budget why is it unreasonable for Iran to support Hamas or Hezbollah? Surely they need to be in a position of strength to facilitate the peace you speak of.

If you keep a people in a state where they feel they have nothing left to lose then isn’t it obvious they will never be in a position of not being able to afford breaching the peace?

That last statement of mine is a little convoluted but I hope you get the drift. Actually as the answer is obvious (you are a supporter of Israel) you may leave it as a statement.

As an aside, having read Victor Ostrovsky’s book I am wondering if you supported Israel supplying our nearest neighbour Indonesia with 28 Seahawk fighter aircraft at a time when the US expressly forbid it because of security concerns? If you do why isn’t this treasonous?

Do you condone your secret services training and equipping Tamil Tigers? Would it be totally unreasonable for Muslim to see a link to the later ethnic cleansing of Muslims on the Jaffna peninsular and particularly the Kattankudi mosque massacre? If so why do you seem happy to engage in the same types of links for Iran?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kattankudi_mosque_massacre

Finally thank you for not claiming the difference between Begin and Arafat was that Arafat was a terrorist.

Well, to run a similar line, would supporting this be treason for Indian/Australians: http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2007/11/06/1194329225075.html. The A4 Skyhawk is truly obselescent: http://www.skyhawkstudygroup.a4skyhawk.org/stdygrpforum/index.php?topic=75.msg288 (are these Australia's old ones?) so it is rather easier to ignore than if one had been British in 1982 when Israel supplied Argentina with MirageV/Nesher Aircraft: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IAI_Nesher. Also note the sale of the 105mm Tank Gun design (British) to China.

As to training, it is a source of foreign currency and yes Israel has trained the Tamil Tigers, as well as the Sri Lankan Defence Force (one possibly apocryphal story has it that it once hosted both at one base in Eilat and had to struggle to keep them from realising that the other was there), but that is by the bye.

As to whether it is for Israel to find a reason for Palestinians to want to live, I fail to see how they can acheive this. This surely is a matter for their elected representatives? The obscene death cult, which has both the West Bank & Gaza in thrall has to end. It is time for leadership and the provision of basic essentials by the Palestinian leadership themselves, perhaps even the building of industry and/or farms so as to have employment within their areas for their own people. The realisation that conducting nuisance raids/bombings which result in massive retaliation are counter-productive and harmful (this seems to have happened, I hope so) is the first step. Please let them try and improve the circumstances of their own people, rather than continuing to try and bring everyone else to the same horrific circumstances.

Yes, this is an idea that many will scoff at, probably not quite as many as would have scoffed at the idea in 1948 that the outlawed leader of a terrorist group would win a Nobel Peace Prize, but still a lot. It would take a strong leader, with the will and the commitment to see it through, it remains to be seen if this will occur. Perhaps when they wake up to Hizbollah's hidden agenda of liberating Palestine as a part of Greater Persia?

Thank you Haganah Bet,

Quite illuminating probably more for the questions you didn't answer rather than the ones you did.

There are similarities between yourself and Boaz-David, he is in love with the idea of a Christian God and you with the idea of Israel.

I'm not passing judgement just trying to understand how that love deforms a person's natural conscience.

I do get a small inkling of the need a Jewish person might have to wrap themselves in the ideology of Zionism but that is the best I can claim for myself. All ideologies exact their toll on those who chose to shoulder them and I sympathise with that.

However I will continue to speak out when those ideologies take their toll on others.

Welcome again to OLO.

Yes csteele, the questions a person does not answer (but perhaps careful reading might reveal answers to more than you think) can be as revealing as those they choose to, so too the points in an argument they choose not to respond to...

The simple fact is that Hamas is not a Shia dominated militia/terrrorist organisation, despite being funded by Iran and equipped by Hizbollah. Now, given the current turmoil in Shia-Sunni relations, this suggests a degree of pragmatism not normally associated with the middle east (at least not associated with the public faces of those in the area). Nonetheless, they are caught between two fires, that of Israel and more importantly, that of Egypt which is otherwise well protected against Shi'ite encroachment by Israel itself, and which would predictably react with extreme disfavour to a Shi'ite militia on it's doorstep. For those who enjoy reading between lines, I suggest this as a good read:

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7I5GRFLz%2bsAsjqhIDGuA4UtYxeDEB04dFZtW%2f1NGjO6RENcQ8o0OrOeJOr6noPqDe0%2fqwAt2xDtwHlb34tNwFWT3zjJH%2f%2bhICejOZPz2%2bvSs%3d

It is from Hamas' own website and the language used in describing the current ceasefire and the importance of maintaining the same is revealing to say the least (NB I suggest you crank up your firewall, block javascript, run noscript, etc.). Even more noteworthy is the apparent rapport with Egypt who organised/brokered the ceasefire.

Such a shift in allegiances is overdue, if only because of the extent of the hostility between Al Qaeda & Hizbollah in Iraq.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3296432,00.html

Whatever else they may be, Hamas are still Arab and will toe the party line, the mullahs will see to that.

Csteele,

Not that it matters in the least, but I am neither Christian nor Jew. I am an Australian born of Australian parents with no religious beliefs whatsoever.

You might call our discussion “histrionic” if you like, although I tried to present Ahmedinejhad in his own words, which far better fit that description. So too, do the soft left, of which you may or may not be a part. They are characterized by an excessive sensitivity to the actions of the West whilst maintaining a blasé, or biased view of the rest of the world. It is this black armband view of history which I find decidedly histrionic.

You say >>” when I hear that 7000 Taliban have been killed so far this year I can’t help but feel for them .”

From your understanding of the conflict you should know that a great deal of the damage done to the Taliban has occurred when they were attacking outposts of the ISAF or ANA/ANP. E.g. See Britain’s experiences in Helmland 2006. So no, I don’t feel sorry in the least for those people. They have bought into the fight after being given every opportunity to go home and rejoin their farms or businesses.

If the Taliban had not made a pact with Al Qaeda (being ideological allies) then they would not have found themselves in the situation they are in. Sudan realized the danger of supporting Al Qaeda and expelled them from the country. Yet the Taliban refused to give up AlQaeda even after the consequences were made clear. How can you lament the loss of the Taliban anyway?

You say >>” why is it unreasonable for Iran to support Hamas or Hezbollah? “

1. These organizations are not looking for peace, they are looking for victory, which means the expungement of the Israeli state, and most likely the Israeli Jews as well.

2. The US goal of spreading democracy has far greater value than the Islamic republics spread of fundamentalist Islam. This should be obvious to all except the moral and cultural relativists of the soft-left.

TBC,

Cont,

3. The US support to Israel has kept the SINGLE bastion of democracy in the ME alive, whilst the enemies of democracy were seeking to destroy it.

As HaganahBet notes the Seahawks are the biplanes of WW2, basically useless as attacking weapons. Militarily they do not change the situation at all. Further, Australia has close links to the Indonesian military.

You say >>” If you keep a people in a state where they feel they have nothing left to lose then isn’t it obvious they will never be in a position of not being able to afford breaching the peace?”

This is not an objective statement at all.

It may be that people feel that they have nothing to lose. Certainly HaganahBet’s point, about the disgraceful death cult which much of Palestine has embraced, is of vital importance in understanding this. But to blame Israel for this situation is not in the least objective.

You seem to want to put the cart before the horse. You say Israel occupied Palestine therefore the Palestinians attack Israel. But this is obviously wrong. The Arab armies attacked Israel immediately upon its independence and twice since. For its own security from attack, Israel occupies Palestine/West Bank.

Palestinians have been offered their own state as far back as 1948 and on more than one occasion since. They refused to take the opportunities given. Further, the constant attacks on Israel have left that country in a position where, in order to defend their own people, they must fight back.

You forget that this is a war zone, and no-one should expect to see unimpeachable fairness and equality in No Man’s Land. When the Palestinians renounce violence I believe they will find a willing partner in peace, in Israel. The deals with Jordan and Egypt are evidence of the validity of this view. But you can’t expect that Israel will extend the “rights” to Palestinians, which westerners have come to expect, whilst the Palestinians are trying to kill them.

When Israel’s security and future can be assured, Israel can assure the same for Palestine.