Csteele,

>> “You view is obviously a little more sophisticated but there is a sense of you really wanting to see the world in terms of black and white. Good guys, bad guys.”

This is ridiculous, I’ve quite clearly pointed out that I don’t believe Israel to be faultless. If you go back over my posts you will see that. What I am suggesting is that on balance Israel deserves support from the democratic western world. Not the scorn and open hostility which the soft-left heaps upon it, whilst lauding (or flat out ignoring) the actions of the Palestinians.

>> "I feel the ‘tradies’ probably have a better handle on the issue than yourself.”

This is not just unsophisticated, it is ignorant and stupid. Where did you leave your brain today?

>> “While I sort of get the reasons for the way he thinks I’m finding it a lot harder to see the same for you.”

That’s the sort of generalised rubbish I expect from some of the thicker respondents among us. If you have a specific criticism of something I have posted, do so.

BTW, I can’t find any references from reputable sources regarding Israel’s involvement in Sri Lanka. And the book itself has been highly criticised for factual errors, So find a better source.

>>” You see Iran providing ... funding to Hamas as making them a “terrorist sponsor”. The obvious conclusion is that if a country supplies both sides of a conflict ... to make a buck then it is okay ..."

This is patently ridiculous. If, and this is a very big IF, Israel supplied training or weapons, it would have been a cash sale. Israel has no interest in who rules Sri Lanka and would not have been FUNDING them.

Iran FUNDS, trains and arms Hezbollah and Hamas because they are instruments of Iran’s foreign policy. Iran supports these groups because they carry out operations that Iran cannot. Hamas and Hezbollah are working with Iran towards the same goal. They are ideological partners, notwithstanding Hamas’s Sunni base.

TBC,

CONT,

>> “At one stage the Israelis were torturing 80% of those it took into captivity. Thankfully Israeli courts have substantially modified this practice”

You can’t just allege things like that; you have to provide some evidence. I find it very hard to accept the truth of that statement. It also depends upon your definition of torture. If solitary confinement is considered torture then the statement is ridiculous. Show me the evidence.

On the other hand see how captured Israelis are treated. Two reserve IDF soldiers, were lynched by a Palestinian mob at the police building in Ramallah. http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2527/press104.htm

As for the Indonesian Air Force, you will note that during the 70’s and early 80’s the Indonesians flew British Aerospace Hawks and Australian Sabres. So I wonder how it is you think it was against OUR interests for Israel to sell the Skyhawks to Indonesia in 1979. Further, in 1982 the Indonesians purchased US F5e to replace the Sabres. Later still in 1986, Indonesia purchased US F-16’s. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian_Air_Force#Rebirth_of_the_Indonesian_Air_Force_.281970-1980.29

In the Falklands, the successes of the Skyhawk were due to the 20 to 1 numerical superiority of the Argentinean Air Force in that theatre. Whenever a Harrier got within range of a SkyHawk they shot it down.

They were next to useless when faced with the Mirage-III and later the F/A-18's with which the RAAF were equipped.

>> “Why do you think they had to operate ‘clandestinely’? Could it be because they were fearful of being vetoed by the U.S.”

I think they had to be clandestine because the Indonesians didn’t want their Muslim public finding out they were buying Israeli jets. Alternatively it could have been because the US, providing a significant portion of Israel’s defence budget, felt it had the right to decide when and to whom Israel sold its military hardware. Certainly not because it was a threat to Australia or the US strategic interests.

Steel,

The real reality?? ?? ?? SO WHAT if Israel gave money to Fatah?? ?? Please tell me how it is at all relevant to anything?? ??

Paul, what would you say if Iran funded an alternative government in Australia and supplied them with 'equipment' to defend themselves?

Steel,

Are you saying you support Hamas and so should the rest of the world?

Paul, that's a loaded question, but to put it simply Hamas is democratically elected in illegally occupied Palestine under occupation and collective punishment arrangement, so yes.

I can do the same to you: Do you support illegal, clandestine activity and support treason and terrorism by supporting the Fatah arrangement?

Steel,

>> “Paul, that's a loaded question”

You clearly don’t understand irony at all do you?. If you did you wouldn’t have asked me the previous loaded/stupid question “what would you say if Iran funded an alternative government in Australia and supplied them with 'equipment' to defend themselves?”

Or this question loaded up with absurd/hysterical assumptions,

>> “Do you support illegal, clandestine activity and support treason and terrorism by supporting the Fatah arrangement?”

If you are asking me do I have a problem subverting Hamas I say, Not at all. If you are asking do I have a problem with Israel providing funding to Fatah to achieve the same objective, Again, Not at all.

Hamas have no legitimacy as a government as they have committed in their charter to the genocide of the Israeli people. And this isn’t the sort of genocide that the grievance mongers of the left accuse the Australian gov’t of in the past (in regards to Aborigines). In the charter, Hamas talk about the actual wiping out of the Jews in the future and the destruction of the state of Israel. http://www.mideastweb.org/hamas.htm

You should read the Charter of this group you support. Or have you read it but don’t see anything wrong with it?

Fatah are the only group actually interested in peace in Palestine. They are the best chance of achieving a negotiated outcome. I have no problem with Israel supporting them at all. So in what way is supporting Fatah, supporting terrorism? I don’t know, maybe you could explain that? I mean if the Israelis are OK with it, since they are the ones who have been Fatah targets in the past, who are you to criticise?

Hamas won less than half of the popular vote (44.45%) in 2006 so I don’t feel too bad about subverting the will of the people, mainly because it just isn’t true. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_legislative_election,_2006
http://www.fairvote.org/media/pep/Palestine.pdf

Treason?? I don’t think so, and anyway who cares? I would have supported any German opposition group against the Nazis. Which is exactly how I view Hamas and this predicament.