That's an appeal to majority you responded to csteele with, steven. I think csteele was hinting at emprical analysis of past misdeeds, rather than ignorance or apathy toward past and current misdeeds among populations of the world. Are there scores for other countries to compare it with?

CSteele,

>>”I know you dismiss the relevance of past deeds but I use them only to illustrate how similar the regimes are. If one side is slightly more belligerent at this moment it shouldn’t distract us from a more complete view”

What?? ?? ?? ??

IRAN IS A THEOCRACY. The president is APPOINTED in a sham election after being chosen by the Supreme Leader and his coterie. They have no real democratic tradition anyway. Their laws are made by religious men supposedly enacting gods law (Shar’ia). Their standing army is supplemented by a Pretorian guard, The IRGC aka Pasdaran, which has its own ground, air and naval units. IRGC commands the Quds force. The primary mission of the Quds Force is to organize, train, equip, and finance foreign Islamic revolutionary movements. The Quds Force maintains and builds contacts with underground Islamic militant organizations throughout the Islamic world. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quds_Force

America is a liberal democracy with hundreds of years of this tradition behind them. Their government and the public school system are secular, as are the courts. Presidents may have had religious views but the imminent apocalyptic visions of Ahmedinejhad have NO PARALLEL in ANY US president.

>>”How many countries has Iran attacked since the mullahs have been in control?”

Through their paramilitary Quds forces, Iran has carried out attacks in Argentina(on the Jewish Embassy) killing 85 and wounding 300. They have masterminded the attack in Saudi Arabia on the Khobar Towers killing 19 Americans and wounding 372. Iran was heavily involved in the war in Lebanon and was behind the attack on the US marine barracks which killed 305 with 75 injured. Since then Iranian backed terror organizations (proxies) have been involved in attacks in Israel, Iraq, Turkey and Algeria.

Iran does not attack anyone openly because it doesn’t need to. They have the paramilitary and terrorist infrastructure which allows them to achieve their goals without declaring their hand.

It’s interesting that neither you, nor Steel has bothered to deny that Iran is chasing these weapons, even though the Iranian regime denies it completely

TBC

Cont,

>> What are the difference between threats on Israel and the threat to bomb Pakistan "back to the stone age" unless it joined the fight against al-Qaeda?”

Richard Armitage was not suggesting that were going to actually wipe Pakistan out. They certainly wouldn’t have used nuclear weapons to do so. That’s the difference. If Iran wasn’t chasing nukes it wouldn’t be an issue.

>>” How does a country permit one of its warships to shoot down another country’s passenger airline then award the ship’s air-warfare coordinator the navy’s the Commendation Medal for "heroic achievement”

Shooting down the airliner was a tragic mistake. Its typical of those who know nothing of the military realities of naval air defence to suggest that there is no way it could have been an accident. I work on radar and I can assure you, that at the range that the jetliner was shot down, it is often difficult to tell the difference between an F-14 and an airliner. You also have ignored the fact that in May 1987, USS Stark was struck by two missiles launched by an Iraqi Mirage F-1, killing 37.

David Hirst?? ?? So what?? ?? There are extremes of opinion and every shade in between, why is he relevant??

>>”If you appreciate how America and Israel are regarded by many in the world and for solid reasons then I think you might enjoy a more balanced viewpoint.”

I didn’t realize until stevenmeyer pointed it out, that you seem to believe yours is a majority viewpoint. It is clearly not. Just look at the statements made by the various foreign gov’t on Israel 60th anniversary. Israel has many allies in western gov’ts across the world. You would do well to realize that, although you may be surrounded by like minded people, your views are decidedly NOT universal in any way, shape or form.

As for the idea that yours is a more balanced viewpoint, I have just provided evidence I believe shows that it is my viewpoint which is more balanced and consistent with the facts.

I believe Iran has a sovereign right to the whatever it wants, IF they so choose to pursue them. It's none of your goddamned business, Paul. I don't see you whining about Pakistan, India and Israel's nuclear weapons or sanctions being laid against them??

i don't see sanctions or threats being made against the USA, whose various senators and potential leaders have threatened *another* illegal, aggressive war, and have also stated they would consider nuclear option against Iran. Have you? No. Because the "international community" you think is so objective is actually extremely hypocritical and biased, western-centric and supremacists, who can't stand the idea of someone else being on an equal footing. The Iraq War is essentially a war crime. And who is paying for their lies and deception for it? No one. In fact, it's being passed off as a noble enterprise on a regular basis. Also, the USA is trading nuclear materials with India, which is not a signatory of the NPT.

Now if you are a country being threatened by a superpower that has used nuclear weapons in the past, has just successfully made an illegal war, and has threatened your country on a regular basis (even without any evidence at all of wrongdoing...it's all propaganda), you have no recourse but to protect your country from these nuclear threats of destruction. It's extortion. Where is the proof Iran is developing them?

This is EXACTLY the same as the Iraq situation, with the same hypocritical mouthpiece lying about Iraq WMD making claims about Iran without any evidence at all...are you people insane? Why are you so gullible for the lying scum in the USA? This is why respecting and not trashing international law is so important. If you ignore it for your allies (Israel), then it's disingenuous to pretend international law means anything (except as a means to bully and control other nations) when it comes to a country like Iran. There is no moral highground here, especially when one of the most egregious countries recently (the USA) is using what amounts to extortion of Iran.

> Shooting down the airliner was a tragic mistake. Its typical of those who know nothing of the military realities of naval air defence to suggest that there is no way it could have been an accident. I work on radar and I can assure you, that at the range that the jetliner was shot down, it is often difficult to tell the difference between an F-14 and an airliner.

You are a *!@#ing apologist. What class of radar do you use? And what other intruments do you use to idnetify an enemy (are they for example, equivalent to a US naval vessel of the time?) Do you realise the other circumstances of the incident? How are there no other mistakes by countries with much inferior technology? What you are saying is rubbish and an absolute disgrace considering civilians were the victims.

*IF* it was a mistake, that makes it no less a serious crime because of it's criminal incompetence. Would you excuse Iran for making such a mistake onm a civilian airliner? Would the USA? No, it would be deliberate and cause for war. And if it was a mistake, why are you so happy about having the USA around and making threats? How many "mistakes" happen on a day to day basis?

If you want some serious insight into what could be the consequences of a mistake, then you should look real hard at the case of the USSR in the Cold War, and the role of the man in charge of nuclear deployment. The USA would be in ashes today had the man followed orders (something which I highly doubt the people put in charge in the USA nuclear arsenal would have questioned and held back on).

Wow Steel,

Chill man. This is only an unimportant debate forum.

As I have said repeatedly, I am not going to engage in a moral argument.

My previous post referred to the following statement of Csteele's:

"If you appreciate how America and Israel are regarded by many in the world and for solid reasons then I think you might enjoy a more balanced viewpoint."

I was merely pointing out that, in the case of America, the non-Muslim world tends to take a more nuanced view than Csteele seems to think.

I also pointed out that many people outside America do have concerns about Iranian nukes.

You plainly feel those who have a more benign opinion of the US are wrong; that America is the "great Satan." I am not going to argue the point with you.

In the case of Israel investors at any rate seem to love the place. Both Microsoft and the German SAP have laboratories in Israel. According to the World Bank net foreign direct investment (FDI) in Israel in 2005 was about $1,000 per capita. It has grown since then as the Israeli economy has expanded. On a per capita basis Israel is among the most sought after investment targets.

Again, you may think investors should steer clear of Israel and the US. I am not going to argue the point. I confine myself to describing what is.

You wrote:

"I believe Iran has a sovereign right to the whatever it wants,…"

How far do you believe the sovereign rights of states extends?

Does Zimbabwe have the right to kill members of the opposition and their wives for example?

Does Sudan have the right to kill the Darfuris?

Just curious. What limitations, if any, on sovereign rights do you recognise?

In the mean time it looks as if Hezbollah is planning to kill more Jews – this time in Canada.

See:

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2008/06/19/UPI_NewsTrack_TopNews/UPI-23771213909200/

Perhaps you feel this is a justified response. Perhaps not. I am not going to debate you on this. Just interested in your comments.