PaulL you say >> “We know that Iran, on the other hand, supports Hezbollah, who are not democratically elected at all”

But from Wikipedia

“After the 2005 elections, Hezbollah held 14 seats (up from eight previously in 2000) in the 128-member Lebanese Parliament. The "resistance" bloc centered in South Lebanon won a total of 23 seat of which Hezbollah is a part. It also participated for the first time in the Lebanese government of July 2005. Hezbollah has two ministers in the government, and a third is Hezbollah-endorsed. It is primarily active in the Bekaa Valley, the southern suburbs of Beirut, and southern Lebanon.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hezbollah#Lebanese_election_:_2005

>>““Democratically elected”, and “Hamas” do not belong in the same sentence.”.

You keep banging on about them not being elected but they were so get over it. You may not like what they stand for and much of it neither do I but they are proving to be far less corrupt than Mr Arafat’s lot and are doing enough welcomed things for the Palestinian people that they have elected them. People are prepared to adopt fundamentalist rule when the alternative is worse.

For your information I read the Hamas charter the first time you posted it and yes it is certainly verbose and distasteful but could you clarify, why is calling for the fall of the State of Israel a genocidal agenda?

Cont

Cont

Personally I loathe religious fundamentalism, as I stated earlier I find Iran’s treatment of its minorities as deplorable and I’m more than happy to acknowledge its treatment of women is lousy. While there are positive signs, especially in education, the Iranians still have a long way to go to rectify the inequality suffered by over half their population.

>> “yet you seem happy to be supporting Hamas”

Please show me where I have said I support Hamas? Don’t get confused by my lack of support for Israeli actions as showing support for Hamas.

As to who is deserving of my support I would say neither at the moment. I hope I recognise the positives and negatives of both sides, their histories and their aspirations.

Like Haganah Bet I intend leaving this up to my conscience and I suppose it is the Aussie in me that really hates a bully. Part of my problem with Israel is that I expected more from them especially over the West Bank Settlements after the Oslo Accords.

If I were a Palestinian I certainly wouldn’t be settling for a country that looked like this;
http://domino.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/cf02d057b04d356385256ddb006dc02f/0fdeb2117237384e852572f30047059f!OpenDocument

As to the score with my ‘power’ and ‘follow through’ compared to your ‘spin’ you had better take another look.

Csteele,

Hezbollah do not have anywhere enough seats to form a government. So instead what they did was launch a military coup which forced the Lebanese government to concede a whole raft of Hezbollah demands. They are not democrats at all.
http://www.babelgum.com/121631/reuters-hezbollah-stand-off-beirut-10-may.htm
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/985647.html

Same goes for Hamas, They won only 3% more of the popular vote than Fatah. If you had any idea how Hamas have been behaving in the Gaza strip you would know that they have a lot less support now than they once did.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/16/AR2007091601487_pf.html
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2007/aug/16/israel

You ask what’s wrong with Hamas’ Charter? Why is calling for the fall of the State of Israel a genocidal agenda?

Yet how can ask such a question when Hamas make clear their intentions.

Quote “"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."

Quote "Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."

Quote “Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. IT, OR ANY PART OF IT, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, SHOULD NOT BE GIVEN UP. "

This isn’t calling for the democratization of Israel-Palestine. This is saying ‘we will destroy them’'obliterate them'; ‘it is our god given destiny’. Just look at how Hamas dealt with Fatah, their own people for god’s sake. BTW, in case you missed it, when they speak of Palestine they mean Israel as well.

For you to even suggest that there is nothing wrong with threatening to overthrow a democratic state shows how far removed from reality you have become.

TBC

CONT,

As for your map, no one is offering that state to Palestine. Israel currently occupies the West Bank to control security and prevent terrorist attacks. If Hamas break the ceasefire, then in all likelihood they will retake the Gaza strip as well. I hope the ceasefire holds and that isn’t necessary, but when you look at what Hamas believe in there can be little real hope.

In any case, if you have a look at the deals offered by various Israeli leaders, for example at Camp David in 2000 Arafat was offered 100% of the Gaza strip and 94% of the West Bank as defined by the green line, you would see that is not the reality of any future Palestinian state offered by Israel. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_Camp_David_Summit#Territory

You forget that Israel only has this land because Arab neighbours invaded the country three times in 60 years, threatening Israel’s existence every time. Israel behind the green line has SO LITTLE strategic depth that Israel, if it wanted to survive, was forced to take the fight to the enemy. They just couldn’t afford to wait for someone to attack them. Since Jordan and Egypyt have made peace with Israel, land captured has been returned. I strongly believe that when/if the Palestinians decide to stop fighting, they will get their land back as well.

So, you’re follow through on the A4’s was non existent (no case to make). More of a swing and miss. You’re consistent on your line and length regarding your distaste for Israel’s actions, but when it comes to the words and actions of the terrorists you bring a different ball to the crease. When it comes to the Hamas charter you’ve been stumped. Time for me to declare, I think.