Steven,

There is a precedent for peace in the middle east. Its the one between Israel and Egypt since 1977. In that deal Israel had to give back an occupied territory for a long term peace deal and it worked for the last 30+ years.

There is little point trying to convince the world that Israel is serious about peace if they are unable to compromise on the occupied territories and keep expanding settlements. Thats the point that Bush and Rice were trying to make in their last visit.

Boaz,

I am not biting into your 'lets turn it a religious debate'.
Hope you are well.

Peace,

1. I recognize that Palestinians are the real victims, as they pressed to leave their land and they are blocked to return back etc.
2. I recognize the right of Israel to live in peace and defend its state from Arabs or Muslims who try with various ways to destroy it.
3. I recognize the right of Palestinians, including Hamas to fight for Palestinians rights.
4. I recognize Hizbullah to defend Lebanon and Support Palestinians.
5. I recognize USA or other countries to support Israel
6. I recognize Iran, Saudi Arabia and other Arabs or Muslims to support Palestinians.
BUT I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEIR REFUSAL TO USE THEIR BRAIN, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEIR REFUSAL TO LEARN FROM THEIR MISTAKES, I DO NOT UNDERSTAND THEIR REFUSAL TO FIND A SOLUTION FOR THEIR PROBLEM!
Is there a solution for the Israel-Palestinian Conflict? YESSSS!
a) Americans can not find any solution for the problem, because Arabs and Muslims do to trust them, and they have right.
2) Israelis can not risk their state and can not accept any solution if they are not sure 1000% that it will work for ever!
This kind of solution it is POSSIBLE ONLY IF THE ISRAEL BECOME MEMBER OF EUROPEAN UNION, AND EUROPEAN UNION NOT ONLY PROTECT THE EUROPEAN SOIL OF ISRAEL BUT ALSO SUPPORT PALESTINIANS TO CREATE THEIR OWN PROSPEROUS STATE.
If Israel become member of the European Union then Israelis can live with peace and security and Palestinians could have enough support to create the most prosperous state in the Muslim and Arab world.
The question is not who and how to win the war but how to support both of them to be prosperous and live in peace and security.
Antonios Symeonakis
Adelaide

LOL STEEL,

I adhere to no religion. To me they are ALL examples of superstition.

I am not going to defend the Bush administration. Bush has won the title of "Worst President since World War 2" hands down.

My SOLE purpose in quoting the hadith was to point out that it is not only Christians who believe in a sort of final judgement day. So do many Muslims. That is a simple statement of fact. Nothing more.

Most of my previous post HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE HADITH I QUOTED.

I pointed out that we should be AT LEAST as sceptical of Ahmadinejad as of Bush. Iran's actions smack of old-fashioned power politics of the sort that nations have engaged in for centuries.

In other words Iran behaves like a NORMAL, albeit unpleasant, state. If you had read my posts you would see that the NORMALCY of Iran has been the thrust of my argument.

It follows that if Iran acquires nukes it can be deterred as the Soviets were deterred.

However I must add that Ahmadinejad obsession with the "Hidden Imam" makes him weird. See:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/1507818/%27Divine-mission%27-driving-Iran%27s-new-leader.html

Fortunately the mullahs seem to be reining him in:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/20/world/middleeast/20mahdi.html?_r=1&ref=middleeast&oref=slogin

This supports my view that the mullahs are pragmatists who do not want to be vaporised and that Iran is simply another state engaged in power politics.

FOXY, FELLOW_HUMAN

Looks like Hamas may be having an attack of pragmatism.

See:

http://www.reuters.com/article/featuredCrisis/idUSL18386606

Maybe the Hamas leadership has concluded that for now they cannot defeat Israel and must focus on the mundane details of making Gaza work.

Let's see how this plays out.

FELLOW_HUMAN

I am not trying to convince you that Israel is "serious" about peace. I am merely pointing out that I believe permanent peace between Israel and the Muslim world is impossible.

Egypt's willingness to sign a peace deal with Israel had as much to do with their defeat in 1973 and their realisation that they almost got nuked as it had with land. Sadat the pragmatist decided the conflict no longer served Egypt's interests.

Dear Steven,

If Barack Obama wins the American Presidential Election,
do you think he'll be able to bring Palestine and Israel to talk peace?

PaulL

While admittedly Bush is a little more circumspect about end time proclamations Ronald Reagan was not. It is a matter of history now that he scared the buggery out of the Russians and his apocalyptic thoughts were a huge contributing factor.

The ‘mullahs’ of the US, while kept a little more at bay through the constitution, wield significant influence and are no less rabid in their pronouncements. Jerry Falwell repeatedly insists that senior positions within government should be reserved for Christians and Jews.

I’m wondering the difference between a US congressman advocating the ‘nuking of Mecca’ and the Iranian president’s proclamations about Israel?

Indeed what is the difference between Ahmadinejad with his quirky beliefs and those of the Mormon senator who ran for the Republican nomination? Both may well be regarded as members of sects, sects that are out of step with the religions that spawned them.

I have sat through a few recordings of Ahmadinejad’s speeches including the Columbia University episode and although I find some of what he has to say distasteful, to paint him as a lunatic would require the same label to be affixed to many in power within Israel and the US.

I’ve had my moment when I have shaken myself out from under the perceptions produced from the strident denouncements of Ahmadinejad by the Bush administration, the same crew that had us sold on the WMD story. May I invite some of you to do the same.

PaulL, history says MAD works, so why shouldn’t it work here?

Stephen

I imagine Ahmadinejad has a little more regard for the Palestinians than Bush has for the Sudanese Christians but is guilty of just as much rhetoric. I wonder if Palestinians were supplied with the same accurate weaponry that the Israelis have at their disposal would the indiscriminate use of rockets be diminished?

If Australia had been occupied by the Japanese and the population was shuffled off to outback South Australia would we have resisted as strongly as the Palestinians? The question is whether or not we would have employed similar tactics. The answer, probably.

CSteele

It is nonsense to pretend that somehow Bush and his cabinet are comparable in their zealotry to the mullahs of Iran. There just isn’t ANY evidence to suggest it.

Fallwell is DEAD, for starters. Secondly his influence in American politics is negligible. Just because you can quote one nutbag Christian, doesn’t mean you have made a case against the US administration.

Reagan is DEAD. But the reason that lefties hate him is because he described the battle between the US and the Soviets as one between Good and Evil. I wouldn’t go quite that far, however in many respects Reagan was right. At that time, few in the left had any idea of the horrors which took place behind the Iron Curtain. There was still much support for the Soviet Union among leftist groups. Reagan knew, but was much derided by the left for supposedly overstating the case. As it turned out he was 100% right.

Ahmedinejhad and Khomeini both suggested Israel should be wiped out. And they are the people who actually run the country. And Kamanei and his mates chose Ahmedinejhad, the new President.

In the most recent US primary elections the most non-Christian Republican got up. I can assure you that John McCain doesn’t believe in an apocalyptic confrontation with the forces of EVIL.

>>”to paint [Ahmedinejhad] as a lunatic would require the same label to be affixed to many in power within Israel and the US.”

This is a man who believes he was bathed in the light of GOD during a speech at the UN and that GOD was working through him to deliver a message. He converses with a 1000 year old man living down a well. He widened the streets of Tehran for the imminent return of the Mehdi. There is absolutely NO COMPARISON with ANYONE in the US administration.

>> “I’m wondering the difference between a US congressman advocating the ‘nuking of Mecca’ and the Iranian president’s proclamations about Israel?

A US congressman (WHO??) doesn’t actually have the power to do ANYTHING. Amedinejhad on the other hand …. That’s the difference.