Rojo
sorry

I`ll repost.

Who are we? Umm, thats a good question.

I 'hope' Rudd. + Minister of Imagration, e Ministers for Aboriginals, Ministers for Health, Ministers for employment and Treasuer in both Federal and State Governments.

I am 'tired 'of Ministers of Agriculture.

I think there is a tad too much conflict of interest working so much with Elders AWB etc.

A Minister of imagration has the reasonsibilty to train educate and supply life styles and job futures to migrants.

A Minister of Health "must look" at diseases grown from intensive farmers.
While Ministers for Aboriginals have a interest to make their people more self sufficent.

Each Premier of the States also is a Minister for trade...

I hope all of the above will work with RSPCA and Muslim Leaders and pale to create a whole new ball came in this country putting farming and employment oportunities back into Australia.

If we leave off animal Welfare( which we have no intention of doing) we still have a major raw material leaving our shores before vaule adding.

ME jobs can be replaced by exporting whole carcuss some biproducts and hides to keep a even level.

ME and Maylasian based companies can co share with our Aussie and create s strong friendships.

That cant hurt either for this countries future.

"However" there would only be one lot of people I would trust to help steer this in the right direction if we supply the ME investors.

That would be Animals Australia and PACAT. HSI.

I would not be happy at all to run this through MLA or Austrade.

We would need people to step up and be paid to travel check and talk to many overseas players.

Invite them back here and introduce them to Aussie Farmers.

We would of course supply Savvy Meat Industry advice.

We also need people like them to help allocate areas for Ag schools to compliment migrants.

Then people like PF and Free Ranger along with RSPCA to train them.

'All' Animal Welfare groups to give us a hand to establish Muslim Animal Welfare groups.

Hello again everyone
I am getting a bit confused here. Yabby says that things cannot be instantly changed in these countries from day 1. I thought that this industry had been going on for years, so why haven't things changed by now? It does really look like change has happened simply because all that awful cruelty was shown on television documentaries. The bottom line really seems to be that is isn't logical or rational to put animals which traditionally live on grass on ships for weeks, and on which a lot seem to die of various causes. Those which don't obviously are treated with extreme cruelty in these countries, in ways that would be illegal in Australia. That's why it all looks to be pretty dollar-driven to me. If it was going to be possible to change the way these people treat animals generally - all animals - would that not have happened by now? What they do to cattle in Egypt is just sickening, and there don't seem to be any enforceable guarantees that they won't keep doing it. The sheep I've seen, in the countries shown on television, were treated nearly as badly. Why is it allowed to send them to these places when they are protected from that sort of cruelty here? These countries sign pieces of paper that seem to completely meaningless, yet we keep sending them animals. It doesn't look as though that will change and I don't understand how a government that says it cares about cruelty to animals allows this to happen. It's millions of animals too. I'm sorry Rojo and Yabby, I just can't see any justification for this. If you want to make money out of your animals surely there are less cruel ways to do that.

Hi all
Alexandra, welcome again. Don't let Yabby (or to a lesser extent, Rojo) bluff you. This industry has had three decades to address animal cruelty in importing countries; they have only begun to do so in recent years because they have been exposed so often, as you point out, on reputable television documentaries.

You are also correct in your understanding of "agreements" (or Memoranda of Understanding) these countries have signed; they are totally unenforceable. All except an additional one that Egypt signed provide only for the animals to be unloaded from ships into quarantine facilities (where it may be up to 50 degrees Celsius and there may or may not be shade, feed and water) and that was only to avert another "Cormo Express" (converted car carrier now known as the "Merino Express" fiasco. The reality is that these countries, all signatories to OIE standards, can and will do what they like. Animals Australia returned to Egypt at the end of 2006 and filmed how well the MoUs with that country were working, and the rest, as they say, is history - it was probably some of that that you saw.

As for ships being "purpose built" (referring to the Brazilians in Rojo's post) in fact very few are. There is a document at www.liveexportshame.com which details every ship and its history, and almost all are converted oil tankers, car transporters and container ships. The "Friesian Express" and the "Becrux" are the only ones that were purpose built.

Continued next post
Cheers
Nicky

(Continued)

It's true that there is less focus on the journey now but that is not to say that the deaths of 40,000+ animals a year is considered to be remotely acceptable as "collateral damage" as the industry sees it. They die of starvation ("inanition"), salmonellosis, disease and trauma from poor handling. In some ways those animals ARE more fortunate than those who survive the journey, and the industry measures its "success" on the animals still standing at that point. It does not measure the brutal subsequent handling and slaughter of those animals, and how sad that is.

PALE's position, as I understand it, is that it wants to operate slaughterhouses in Australia, which brings it into contention with the established animal welfare groups, who, I suspect but have no real basis for this, do not want to be part of slaughter itself or profiteering from it. It may also have to do with how PALE's business practices, you will have gained some insight into that from PALE's posts on various threads.

PALE, it is not true to say that all the State Premiers are also Ministers for Trade, that is only the case in Western Australia. The other states have a separate portfolio and Minister and/or it is included in portfolios other than those of the Premiers.

Cheers
Nicky

Sheesh, amazing how Alex and Nicky bounce off one another. Sounds more like
perhaps old friends to me :)

Alex, there certainly has been progress in the ME. Today some holding feedlots
even have chilled water for their sheep, something I have not seen in Australia.
Kim Chance mentioned that on his trip, he saw a new abattoir in Saudi Arabia,
up with or better then anything he had seen in Australia. So change is happening.

Last time I looked, IIRC AA were hiring a marketing specialist in causes, so
clearly they are out to shock, it’s a great way of marketing a cause. Just as
the Catholics do with their bits of dismembered foetuses, when they campaign
against abortion.

I have yet to see any material from AA, showing all the good stuff happening in
the ME.

I remind you that we are farmers, we grow things for people to eat. Why have
the so called animal welfare organisations done nothing in the ME for 30 years?
These organisations have been free to get off their butts, they clearly haven’t,
so pointing fingers at farmers is rather hypocritical. What is now happening
is that farmers are starting to get involved in things that animal welfare organisations
should have been doing for years. They are not short of money. Peta collects around
20 million$ a year, I am told, so it’s big business to rattle the internet tin these days.

I remind you that animal welfare has been active in Australia for a long time, still
we get incidents happening, much as they do in the ME. We live in a imperfect
world, that is the reality.

I gather that the trip to the ME is around 12 days, so in a sheep’s life, that is minimal They gain weight along the way. 99% arrive just fine. A 1% deathrate
is considered quite acceptable, as it is in Australian feedlots. Sheep don’t yet
have a Medicare card. 1 million or so cattle are in Australian feedlots. Do you
want to ban them and close them all down as well?

Welcome again Alexandra0814,
I would like to address a few of your questions- As much as space permits.

1.-That's why it all looks to be pretty dollar-driven to me.
Answer- Yes of course it’s peoples live hoods and business not pets.

2 If it was going to be possible to change the way these people treat animals generally - all animals - would that not has happened by now?

Answer- “We” will never! Make changes in ME.
However we can arrange for them to do it themselves. By introducing an international accreditation that Islam’s reputation markets as the most human world wide.
These people have the funds to do it. They just need the right motivation.

3
If you want to make money out of your animals surely there are less cruel ways to do that.

Answer
Yes Alexandra there is. I just posted it above. Please stop and think what you really want.
We can improve conditions if we pull together.

I am sorry but each protest by libbers rolling around with pretend blood protesting meat eaters simply makes it worse for the animals the public are getting tired of that.

The media and Industry and Government take much delight in showing everybody up as extremists.

This suites people because they don’t want to confront the awful truth. They don’t want to feel guilty.

4

It's true that there is less focus on the journey now.

Answer- "NO it isn’t true."!

Alexandra pale does want to operate plants. It wants farmers and Muslim investors to.

It has a 'project' to reopen them under strict animal welfare conditions.
You simply have got to put an alternative on the table to Government and farmers and ME buyers- If your serious about making a difference. Its as simply as that.

Pale IS VERY Suspicious of some people ‘real motives’

Also when I can I will post letters of reply from most Premiers in Australia. So Nickys inncorrect.

They scream Ban Live Exports- Then scream louder when
people actually get off their bums to deliver just that.

Interesting=Why?