I'm new to this site, so I apologise in advance for any misunderstandings. It seems to me that there are two passionate sides to this debate. Two people, Yabby and Rojo, seem to be posting with a degree of arrogance against the opposing views of Pale, Dickie and Nicky. So that I can get a full understanding, Rojo and Yabby, could you please confirm what you appear to be saying, that the awful cruelty we have seen several times on reputable documentary programs (The 7.30 Report and Landline in particular) is perfectly okay as long as you can make money out of it? It's not as if that material could have been faked, after all. If you do think it's okay, why do you insult and patronise those who disagree with you? Why not argue politely and rationally your case?
I have looked at the websites of the Department of Agriculture, Forestry and Fisheries, Livecorp and Meat and Livestock Australia for a reasonable argument for shipping all these animals half way around the world, and there doesn't seem to be one beyond the financial, and that doesn't seem to justify what happens to these animals on long journeys and especially in the countries to which they are sent. If there is somewhere else I should be looking, please tell me. Especially, there does not seem to me to be any possible justification for sending cattle to Egypt again, given the comments from the RSPCA.
Regards from Alexandra

Alexandra, you seem to be showing some bias, for IMHO Rojo is in fact extremely
polite, unlike some of the insults and abuse that has been thrown at farmers, from
the animal liberation brigade on OLO. In my own case, I prefer to be blunt, say
it like it is. You call it arrogance, I call it self assured :)

Yes there is documented cruelty that was filmed in the ME, as there is documented
cruelty, that was filmed in Australia. There is documented cruelty going on in
some marriages. In each of these cases, it pays to deal with and address those specific
cases and try to improve things, not for instance ban all marriages or close down all
Australian meatworks. The same principle applies to the ME.

Clearly there are positive outcomes from the Egypt story. The trade was banned for
a couple of years or so, meantime a new abattoir has been built, with new equipment, which complies with international standards, in other words far
better then what they had before. It’s a step in the right direction. Australia has
clearly had an influence, which is good for all animals slaughtered in the ME,
for they matter too, not just Australian ones. I prefer to see progress through one
little step at a time, then no progress at all. Yes its an imperfect world, but as long
as it’s a bit better then it was yesterday, that is what we call progress.

We could in fact be doing far more in the ME. I have asked our OLO animal
libbers for support, but they are not interested

Hi Alexandra0814, I'm afraid asserting ones viewpoint and being confident with the validity of that viewpoint can come over as arrogance, it's not my intention nor my nature. Sometimes frustration at others thinking processes can lead to sharpish comments. I do for the record not generally insult without provocation, but sadly resort to the same level on occasion.

Sometimes I jump to wild conclusions eg, say I noticed that you signed your name at the bottom of your post and don't indent new paragraphs, like another poster here does, and then had a memory spark(set off by Yabby) about a similar occurance with a then "jenna" nearly a year ago.
http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=570&page=12
I would then say Hi Nicky.
That would all be unfair because it is a weak assumption, so Hi Alexandra. And apologies to Nicky because that was awfully impolite.

Alexandra, I don't condone any mistreatment of animals and having to blind cattle or cut tendons is a symptom of inadequate facilities, not a symptom of the brutality or barbarism that pale dickie and Nicky attribute to Middle Eastern peoples. My postulation is that if change is to be effected for the millions and millions of non-Australian animals slaughtered in the ME then it is better to do that by working with the ME rather from a judgemental,over bearing position. I also find the "support" for chilled trade a bit hollow from those who oppose the exploitation of animals in any way.

cont'd

Hello to you both and thank you for your answers. Rojo, I thought you had to put your name at the end because I didn't realise that it came up automatically. I have been called Alex before but never Nicky for what that's worth. That is not to say that I don't disagree with a lot of what Nicky and Dickie say. I read that there is indeed a new abattoir built in Egypt but it is said to be for Australian cattle so how does that benefit animals from other countries? And also, this is a stated requirement at this point but Egypt also signed other similar papers and it has not kept to the agreements it made in those. So what guarantees are there with these requirements? What does Australia do when they don't? Nothing, it seems, it just keeps sending animals anyway.
Someone commented somewhere that all the countries in the Middle East have signed up for the International Organisation of Animals Health treaties. Since it seems that they don't do what they say either, it seems that there are no guarantees to be had. Yabby I reckon you are pushing uphill about what you call animal libbers getting involved in these countries too. Isn't that what the Australian government says it is doing?
Since my name will apparently appear anyway ...

A great deal of focus is placed on "profit" from livestock by those whose pockets are not affected in the least. The simple thing they could do is set up a fund to buy the sheep by outbidding live exporters. We would then know how far financial rhetoric stretches.
I do find the support for "chilled meat" exports a bit hollow from organisations diametrically opposed to exploiting animals.

Anyway great to see a new face as we lose others.

dickie, debate isn't the word I would use to describe our communications. Speaking of propaganda how about that Canadian "TSE" case?
Australia stacks up well in your telegraph article, those Brazilians are the ones to watch. And we use purpose built ships, not containers.
I know you well enough to know that you would not rest until you proved my fraudulence, if you really thought I was.

Nicky, yes the old cognition argument, but obviously the people we're talking about don't have the same cognition as you either, so by your logic it isn't wrong for them too. I think you miss the true question, but no matter-you plan to disappear.

If you believe AA then these animals that die on board are the "lucky" ones, but I don't know what the focus is about the ones that don't make it, their future was short anyway.

I'm sorry you can't accept the truth(as I genuinely see it), and I would have been happy to consider any rational argument, but I just don't think calling my arguments fatuous or propaganda or whatever has any standing in relation to those comments. I can take it if I'm wrong, but don't slight my views just because you have a different ideology. Withdrawing is probably for the best.

Hi all

Yes, it is great to see a new "face" - welcome, Alexandra. As well as the websites you have visited for information, I'm guessing you have also seen liveexportindefensible by Animals Australia and www.liveexportshame.com. The latter provides some interesting statistical information which is referenced to the ABS (Australian Bureau of Statistics).

Our resident mouthpieces for MLA and LiveCorp (Yabby and Rojo) do not care much for that information, because it clearly shows how little the live export trade is worth in comparison with the frozen meat trade to all the countries to which Australia exports live animals - go figure.

Rojo, your attack on Dickie's communication abilities is a little unfair over a simple typo and you know it. Dickie's communications are factual and referenced and you know that too, you just don't like it. Yabby, you describe my communications as "emotove"; I think that demonstrates self-expression of a higher order than that to which you can lay claim. Also, I can't remember whether it was this or the other thread (as they have crossed over a little) on which you advised me to stick to knitting - firstly, I never learned how to knit; I've never had the time or the inclination, and secondly, you (usually) have to do it with wool, as I understand it. A bad analogy.

Alexandra, I hope you continue to visit us, at least the debate is fairly lively here!

Cheers
Nicky