Ah Nicky, but you again missed the point. Nations change and
influence from other nations matters over time. People can be
influenced in their behaviour. In the ME today, they are hopping
onto the internet, using mobile phones, eating Big Macs and
drinking Coke, amongst many other things. All due to outside
influence, not with a big stick approach either.

If you want to change slaughter practises, so introduce equipment
which is cheap, simple and effective, for a win-win situation
all round. Wrestling every sheep down to slaughter it is really
hard work, there is no need to do it. Arabs are not silly, they
will adopt ideas that save them hard work.

So there was no contradiction in my post at all. I remind you
that when the West was in the dark ages, we progressed eventually
by learning from others, including the Far East and ME.

Hi all
Interesting observations. Yabby, perhaps you could expand on what exactly we have learned (as a Western culture) from the Middle East and Far East (not including some aspects of technology and Chinese food). Big Macs and Coke also are not suggestive or poor countries lacking refrigeration, obviating one of the arguments constantly propounded by you people for live exports.

Let me know when they have entirely stamped out the practices, in every country to which Australia exports animals, of publicly flogging female rape victims and stoning them to death and forcing women to cover their whole faces and bodies, and the prohibition on their being out in public unescorted by a male relative. I mean entirely and I mean all those countries.

PALE, some interesting observations. You are correct in saying that I would argue that Australia has a long way to go in terms of farmed animal welfare; it is sad that there is one set of rules for "companion" animals and no set of rules of any meaning for farmed animals. But are you suggesting that exporting animals live to Malaysia is a solution to live exports to the Middle East?

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky Said

But are you suggesting ...
Pale

No Nicky, certainly not. Although there is at the moment a conflict of interest with some and major headache for us under our mou.

I think the five or eight plants being worked on at the moment there will have to be turned into Halal carcass boning plants and Halal meat distributors.

Whole carcass from Australia to Malaysia was also the proposal (after our Australian plants) service what they can.

While it isn’t widely known Malaysia does accept the bolt method. No not all however. They are modern enough in forward thinking to accommodate this. AQIS will tell you that are impossible to come to agreements regarding slaughter with JAKIM etc...

Again I totally disagree. There are some that are difficult yes- but remember these are savvy people and the very ones that agreed to look at the gas.

..While the West and China are sort of rejected in Halal products- Malaysia is accepted.

So in short just imagine if Malaysia and the world wide Muslims introduced a international accreditation standard for Halal.

They are fully aware of the focus on animal welfare. The are smart and often opportunists, clever to a fault.

The thought of world wide promotions. Promoting them as the number one human product appeals. NASA and HIS NSW Verna’s labeling tick of approval holds big appeal.
Wonderful work from the Human Society.

I fully agree with Yabby, that we must do something for the other twelve million animals etc.
However I know better than to think they wont resent US doing it.
No much better to improve the multi trillion dollar industry by bring a international Halal accreditation certificate.

Let Allah spread the good message of better animal care. Especially to MLA Livecourpe and Elders AWB etc.

We know how much these companies respect the ME:) I am sure they will be delighted that all their hard efforts will be done for them.
Perhaps they might find a job in USA ‘who used to run and drive live exports’ and call it er, trade?……

*I fully agree with Yabby, that we must do something for the other twelve million animals etc.*

Well that is great news Gertude!, for clearly the rest of the
Austrlalian animal liberation movement, don't give a stuff,
or they would at least make an attempt to change things and
help to modernise ME slaughter practises, where they don't
yet exist. 12 million animals matter in the end, Australian or not.

Nicky hoping that Ethiopia, Kenya, Sudan etc, will "consider their own positions,"
has got buckleys chance, quite frankly. There are good reasons why NZ does not
bother with live exports. They have a captive market in Europe which pays more
then the ME, unlike Australia, which does not have a quota to speak of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_science

A few details about what the Arabs did, whilst we were burning people at the stake
and other similar pastimes of the Catholic Church, when the Church ruled everything
and Europe was in the dark ages.

So when did they last stone women, or stop them driving, or force them with all sorts
of things in Dubai, Nicky? The ME is made up of all sorts of cultures, it is not one
single place, with one single type of behaviour.

Yes, you have some very rich, some very poor, some religious fanatics, some not,
but then the USA has the same.

Some have refrigeration, some don’t, some prefer fresh meat, some go to the supermarket.

The only “lesson” that was learned from closing down the Saudi live trade, was
that WA livestock prices collapsed, hundreds of thousands of sheep were put
on trucks to undergo 3000km journeys and farmers lost bigtime. But then as you
have no problem with WA farmers going broke, you would be cheering. Not so
for more normal Australians, who still value the role of agriculture.

Yabbs Said

Well that is great news Gertude!, for clearly the rest of the
Austrlalian animal liberation movement, don't give a stuff,

Gertude Replies
Yabby, I dont think even you believe that so why say it. I think what you really mean is your tired of people not listening to your side of the argument.
There is no way that they want animals dying slowly here in Australia either. Surley some of the farmers could have taken them by the hand by now and lead them in a little more informed direction.

Mind you I have no way of knowing if anybody has tried. I sent one farmers off in that direction years ago but I never heard back from him. ( In hind sight thats possibly way- Funny as)


They need to get some country people involved as well as high eybrows and professors uni kids and accademics.

They need to get experts on these subjects and to understand many of them dont even read and write- let alone do subs for enquires gov and the likes.

So the real question we must ask ourselves is this= While we have some fun with them isnt it pretty clear that there is an absense of farmers who have come out in support of better treatment for their animals.

I acknowledge there is at least at the top a severe personality problem within animal welfare. However maybe thats just from seeing cruelty for so many years and being unable to do much about it.


We have only had Two farmers on this forum speak out about it.
Those are PF and Free Ranger.
Why is that do you think? I mean why cant the farmers take these girls by the hand and say to them- This way girls- You doing a good job.


Why cant the farmers see its the Government making it impossible to open plants and blocking meat wokers that is the 'real problem.'

Why farmers get behind them and show them where to lobby.

Why cant they acknowledge that more plants will give the farmers a better price.

Hi all
Yabby, when were you last in the Middle East, including Dubai, to be able to be able to make such "informed" comment? I don't know when the last woman was stoned to death in Dubai (although it probably wouldn't be that hard to find out; after all, we know it is more than possible in Saudi Arabia) and nor do you, but don't try and tell us it doesn't happen in Dubai and other Middle Eastern countries.

Citing one country which may be slightly more enightened that some others is another of your "red herrings", and you know it. All Middle Eastern and many SE Asian countries operate under Sharia Law (you know, the law they would have us all live under), so that punishment is contained in the statutes (and wilfully applied at the whim of Sharia judges).

The only reason that the sheep were forced onto 3,000km truck journeys across the country when the Saudi trade last shut down was because you farmers put them on the trucks to do it. No other reason. You bred more sheep than you needed on your side of the country as usual, and that was your solution - you don't care about the welfare of the animals or you wouldn't do that either, it is just more manifest cruelty.

I have a great solution to all this for you, and you and I will then never have another argument - grow crops/vegetables and export them instead.

Cheers
Nicky