Yabby

I understand it suites you to say you don’t follow my comments so for the next few posts I will address your comment above again point by point.

You said to me = Yes I agree with you that the workers treat Animals in the Middle East by pulling their eyes out alive and slashing their tendons so they cant kick them
. I agree with you much of the cruelty is out of ignorance and fear=

Here are your words again =
Yabby Said
. I agree with you much of the cruelty is out of ignorance and fear=

*They are basically scared, terrified of these animals. Which is why they rip their eyes out before slaughter and slash the tendons so other cow can’t kick.
To themselves protect themselves in utter ignorance out of fear.*

You went on to say=
Yabby said

that is exactly the point in parts of the ME and is why Australia
could do so much good, by installing proper equipment.

PALE Replied
* OR, we could look at it another way.*

we could stop sending them alive!

* As the largest live Animal Exporter in the world is Australia that ought to have a big effect.

With Australia withdrawing from live animal as we are shamefully the biggest in the world it would improve animal welfare instantly.

You then went on the highlight you agreed that at the moment in Indonesia the animals sent their alive suffer dreadfully – but the lowlife animal shipping agents would continue slowly.

Pale said
The ME is not poor so why should the Australian tax payer pay ANYTHING to them.
Your lot has lied for years saying oh they have no refrigeration Or Oh they must have them alive for religious sacrifices.

To suggest they give a SH about Animal Welfare is a vile lie.

Gertrude, I remind you that the ME is not one place, but many places. You have
rich and you have poor. You cannot compare Saudi Arabia to say Egypt or Oman.

So you don’t have one thing happening in the ME, but many, in different countries,
regions.

Yes, animal cruelty has been documented in some parts of the ME. Lack of equipment and fear are a large part of the problem in some parts. It is immoral
to note it, but not try to do something about it, if we can quite easily do so.

Only a small % of the overall animals slaughtered in the ME are Australian. Some
of those slaughtered are done so in extremely modern facilities, some not. Even
if not a single Australian animal went to the ME, millions would still be slaughtered
there each year. Some people just keep doing what they have doing for hundreds
and thousands of years, some don’t.

I remind you that the Australian Govt has a budget for “foreign aid”. It is huge and
when the tsunami hit in Indonesia, IIRC something like a billion $ was spent by
Australian taxpayers. A tiny donation in comparison, to assist animal welfare in
the ME, would be chicken feed as part of the foreign aid budget.

Wether we send animals to the ME or not, a relatively tiny amount, spent on those
places which are not rich with oil, for simple equipment, sourced from Australian
manufacturers, to improve animal welfare in the ME, makes perfect sense to me.

If you care about animal welfare, then you will want to see animals slaughtered with
proper equipment in the ME, Australian animals or not. 10 million $ in the
foreign aid budget, is quite frankly peanuts.

I remind you once again, only a small % of animals slaughtered in the ME are Australian. By far the majority are not Australian. That does not mean that they
do not matter. If Australia does not do this, who else will?

If you care about animals, then you will support my suggestion.

Hi all
Yabby, not so. If Australia stopped sending animals in their millions to a fate that you openly admit is cruel, a) other countries would stop and take notice, b) they would have several million less animals to brutalize, c) no other country can/will supply the volume Australia does and d) they would have to get over the preference for bloodbaths in the streets (and slaughterhouses) of terrorized animals and buy frozen meat. Simple really. Egypt did, when the outcry blew up there in 2006-2007, Saudi Arabia did in the 1990s.

As for making improvements, as I have said before - you have people who are profiteering from said terrorized animals supposedly implementing "improvements". Not even the blind leading the blind. It's the propaganda machine driving it all. And still no evidence beyond one short video, after which Animals Australia filmed the exact same people going right back to their old ways. CHANGE this thinking? Give us a break!

And did I miss something? Tell me more about Indonesia.

Cheers
Nicky

Yabby said

I remind you once again, only a small % of animals slaughtered in the ME are Australian. By far the majority are not Australian.

That does not mean that they do not matter. If Australia does not do this, who else will?

If you care about animals, then you will support my suggestion.
Posted by Yabby, Tuesday, 22 April 2008 11:12:32 PM

Pale replies

Before I could think of supporting your suggestions that if Australia does not do this who will.

I would need a hand with figures.

Now Australia exports at the moment to over thirty countries you understand.

I cant see ten million even going close to that. Lets face it thats peanuts Yabby.

Then you would have to consider that even if boxes were installed to bring animal welfare anywhere near half way decent you would need yarding and fences "water and shade" in ALL plants. Not to mention Stunning equiptment.

Then of course they would have to be maintained over the years.
Then of course training .

How about this= before I consider supporting your suggestions you give me some figures IYOP on going that in all the countries remembering more are on the rise. I am not suggesting only Australia companies and tax payers put into this because please remember we are talking about a multi trillian dollar industry. However Australia most certainly could contribute. Anyway let me work out who will help pay ok

Your a figures man so its easier for you to do.
Please remember there are bound to be hidden costs, Er, by that I dont mean the usual.
I mean you have many places and many countries all of which have different slaugthtering locations.


So what I am saying is try to pick some figures to cover extra then perhaps double it.

To me it would be helpful if you gave suggested figures for each country- Just roughly of course.

$ - Country
$ - ME
Like that ok?

Nicky, last time I checked, around 16 million animals were imported by the
ME for slaughter. Even if they did not try to replace a single Australian animal
from other places, that still leaves 12 million non Australian animals. Either
you care about the welfare of those 12 million or you don’t. You clearly don’t.

http://www.aciar.gov.au/

Gertrude, the budget for Australian foreign agricultural aid alone, is over 50
million $ a year. That includes projects like assisting to establish a beef industry
in places like Cambodia and Laos. There is no good reason why animal welfare
cannot be included as part of Australian agricultural aid. In fact if animal welfare
groups really care about animal welfare, it is something that they could lobby for,
which might well receive Govt approval.

I would not even attempt to draw up a country by country budget, as there are people
far more qualified then I am, with more specific knowledge then I have, to do that.
Perhaps the vet stationed in the ME would be a good start.

The basic equipment to restrain livestock, including lead up races etc, is pretty simple
and cheap. Farmers use similar equipment for say crutching sheep, which tips them
over on their sides, in a restrained manner. The steel value might be around 1500$
at most, I could knock one up in my workshop, if I needed to. Including labour etc,
one unit might cost 5-6000$. Cattle equipment is simply a bit larger. Again, there
would be people who have been involved with the Indonesian restraining box
programme, who could draw on that experience.

The thing is, people follow their old cultural practises and do things as dad did, until
somebody comes along and brings about change. Australia has the expertise to
do something and suggest the best changes. If you want change to animal welfare,
then do something about it in a positive way. 10 million $ would buy one huge amount
of equipment and it is peanuts, given the overall Australian foreign aid
budget. In Indonesia now, they are teaching the locals to make that-equipment.

Yabby

( I am thinking) We are talking about peoople who loan funds to Governments Here. They are not broke. Let me think.

Its not widely known but Malaysia accepts bolt stunning and IMOP they will be the Halal hub.
This is why I approached Malaysia then Saudi to send through JAKIM to ME instead of how you want to do it.
Everything 'was' on track but the plants are wanted there instead of here. Clearly I am not happy about that etc...

Indonesia and much of the Islamic world, Malaysia is among the most politically stable and economically healthy states, and is also empowered with other advantages.

At a modest 25 million people, Malaysia launched massive projects in agriculture and is channelling billions of dollars into universities and laboratories for agriculture.

The NCER (The Northern Corridor Economic Region) and the ECER (The Eastern Corridor Economic Region) collectively will involve eight states in the Malaysian peninsular at the collective sum of approximately USD $85 billion dollars, a large stake of it specifically in the pursuit of optimising agriculture’s potential.

Earlier this year, the Indonesia parliament discussed the draft of Halal bill for mandatory Halal certification on food products.

The debate favours to agree on mandatory certification, but with the consideration to avoid high-cost economy for Halal certification, and that the government should liberalise Halal certification.

The Chief of Indonesian Consumer Foundation (YLKI), Huzna Zahir, said that there should not be a monopolised certification, to ensure that it will not be a burden to producers, especially small-scale manufacturers.

Independencia Alimentos, Brazil’s third largest meat exporter has one plant approved for Halal production and export to Malaysia, out of a total of seven within the group.

To be approved as a Halal facility for Malaysia, they had to invest in a special restraining box to improve the animal’s standing position, while being stunned prior to slaughter.

“This they did mind,you complained it wasnt cheap.

It was agreed that besides being animal-friendly, the special restraining box also protects the workers while performing the slaughter.

Another difference is stunning prior to slaughter.