Nicky said
PALE - I'm still at a bit of a loss about your comment about no-one supporting the PALE/HKM/AFIC submission to the RRAT enquiry into the National Animal Welfare Bill. Why would they?
Pale replies
Err, Nicky you mean why they wouldn’t don’t you?. She sits on that board. Apart from that pale has many times made approaches.

PALE were was black listed by the Peak Animal Welfare Groups.

That includes WSPA BTW that Dr Hugh Wirth still is CEO for Australia.?

More to point- Why would they want to? Simple-. Because it was set up as a Veggie organization.

“At least be honest with the Public”.

How can they claim to be the peak Animal Welfare Organization Of this country?

This is a meat eating country. Apart from which it is totally unreasonable to block us to have contact with people who work with them under their umbrella.

Peter McGauran was aware of this Nicky.

Let me WSPA a little secret Nicky. When I first` ever` contacted them it was to offer a free office and staff to help them.

She answered the phone she said AA did not does live exports because it was ‘too political”

That would have been news to Christa the German lady who started Animals Angles and mortgaged her house to send evidence and video footage for 20 years!

Anyway, she said contact Green peace or Animal liberation.

She said in a very aggressive tone= Where are you did you say?

I replied QLD and I am hoping to see Andrew Bartlett and we are going to work with RSPCA QLD.

She replied- Well if you want to know anything you will have to as me because Andrew won’t work with “anybody other than me.!”

She went on to say-
We are old friends from years ago. She was very very unfriendly and aggressive and I was really taken back and very surprised.

Our first meeting a lady took everybody’s contacts and told them not to join pale but AA.

Pale wants people like PF on the board- not her!

Rojo, I read the BBC article and I have no doubt that those sorts of figures could
be produced by that kind of study. What they actually mean, is of course another
matter.

If I did a study about the Orange People, I’d probably get even higher results.
Their movement was full of doctors, lawyers, teachers, academics etc. I actually
used to have a lot of time for their old Bhagwan, who was an amusing and
smart fellow. Mind you, despite him claiming to be nothing more then a smart
philosophy professor, his half million followers turned the whole thing into
a kind of religion, as they yearned for meaning in their lives.

Most of the veggies that I know landed up going to Uni, where they were exposed
to reading about philosophy etc and landed up reading Singer and similar.
A percentage of them, two thirds female, join the veggie bandwagon and turn it into
their new religion. Off the top of my head, around 20% go to Uni, around 10%
of those or 2% of the population go veggie.

Now Bob the brickie and Hanny the hairdresser etc, all included in the study too,
generally don’t read philosophy. I once asked the newsagent what most people
buy and he told me it was Autotrader for the guys and New Idea for the ladies.
If a book sells 50’000 copies in Australia it’s a huge best seller.

If this study now shows that Nicky the veggie is smarter then Bob and Hanny,
that really does not prove anything.

I think that PF is right, shock is what all those videos are meant to achieve,
as people follow their agendas and marketing campaigns. The Catholics
do the same with photos of foetus arms and legs after abortions, with the
same aim, to shock. It pushes emotional buttons, that’s why its done.

Hi Yabby, absolutely agree your take on the study, it's just that the results ie "vegetarians are smarter", are often quoted by veg groups in order to recruit. They just tend to leave out the part about the vegetarians who eat meat. That bit tickles me.

There are certain similarities to organised religion within the vegetarian movement, and different factions. I guess somewhere near the top of the hierachy are those that say they live only on air and sunlight(not for long), and down the bottom ova-lacto-pisco-vegetarians. The latter is a mouthful so I don't know why you'd bother, especially as I would consider fish to be meat.

Nicky, I do wonder at why some people feel the need to label themselves vegetarian yet clearly aren't. Are there any guidelines to how long someone has to be meat free to become vegetarian?

I think we need to get things into some prospective.

I don’t want Nicky or Dickie Cup handle Alex etc to think this is an attack on them personally.

The fact remains these people clearly care about the animals and are outraged by the way in which they are treated.

They give up their own time and put all their energy into it.We share their outrage.

Nicky and others- what we are saying is perhaps by working more independently you may achieve your goals much quicker.

Now I know you are going to rush in and say- “pale I have told you before I do not work with anybody. Ok

I hear that but I believe you are influenced by these people and you believe they are the only ones able to help animals.

This Nicky and others simply isn’t the case.
Yes I agree they have done more to highlight Animal cruelty in Australia than anybody.

Yes I support those one hundred percent in that.

However Nicky don’t you see that until we find alternatives to some of these now enormous problems we are only kidding ourselves that we are helping animals.

Why is it that you girls refuse to work or do anything other than what AA or PETA.

Ask yourself this.- Wouldn’t I feel better if I were able to divert Tassi live trade to Carcass?

You would still feel sad but at least know they were slaughtered here and you saved the dreadful long drawn out deaths.

You would know pigs at least lived free range before they were killed and poultry etc.

You girls made it clear you would never consider assisting to do that.

I don’t even mean by working with pale just doing it yourselves.

So you are either AA Peta girls or you have been brain washed against pale.

Ok, Then start your own deals with farmers and Muslims.

Our job is to offer the farmers better alternative.

Give the same price.More if possible.

That will do it Nicky every time. It really is where the Buck stops.

Hi all
I see the usual sweeping generalizations and stereotyping from Yabby, which is to be expected.

PF, if the woman to whom you refer was filming under what I'll describe as "raid" conditions - or even if she was there at the invitation of the farmer/s concerned, just what exactly could she have done? Staged a riot and got arrested (she has been)? Released all the pigs, with the same result? What she was doing was documenting the material for the information of the public, and in doing that, she was enormously successful, I'd suggest. The only person I'm aware of who seems to be able to pull off rescues out of these places is Patty Mark from AL Victoria.

PALE - I am lost. WHAT board? And if not Animals Australia, then who do you suggest IS the peak animal welfare body in the country? The RSPCA is regarded as more of a joke. And I say again, you cannot force people to work with you and force your ideas, however well-intentioned, down their throats. Senator Bartlett must have chosen to work with AA for his own reasons and that is his choice. As for your idea about Tasmania, how do you suggest someone who works full time and more in NSW is going to do that? There must be someone in Tasmania you can contact if that's what you want to do. With regard to the submissions, as I said - no-one was submitting in relation to the submissions of others, they were commenting on the provisions of the proposed legislation - none of your submissions actually did that. In those things you have to stay focussed.

Wirthless is not President of RSPCA Australia; Lynn Bradshaw from WA is. Wirthless remains president of Victoria, I think. WSPA is an international body and I have no idea why they and AA "blacklisted" you, if that's what happened. I'd suggest that there would have to be some reason though, and not to do with vegetarianism (see my earlier posts from their, and PETA's websites).

Cheers
Nicky

Rojo, I have one acquaintance who claims to be a vegetarian, although she eats fish
and a bit of chicken. Then sometimes she’ll also get weak and enjoy a bit of bacon :)
It’s a bit like the Catholics who take the pill etc. People adjust their religions
to suit themselves and their weaknesses and can usually rationalise it all away one
way or the other.

Nicky there is nothing wrong with generalising to make a point. We are all aware that
there will always be exceptions. If I claim that men are taller then women, on
average they are, but yes, exceptions there are. It still makes the point, with which
you are free to argue of course.

So far you really haven’t made a good case for your beliefs. You can’t say as to
whom decided what animals were meant or not meant to be doing, or if that is just
your opinion.

You’d have to admit that starving to death in nature is far more cruel then humane
slaughtering to avoid overpopulation issues. You’d also have to admit that once we
are dead, it really doesent matter to us, what happens to the remains, as eventually
its all recycled anyhow, no matter which species.

So you really don’t have a case to make against humane free range farming, where
animals get to enjoy their lives.

On the nutrition side, the evidence is pretty clear that a Mediterranean diet with
moderate meat consumption, or a Japanese diet with high fish and some meat
consumption, is as good as anything. They are quite different to a high meat
diet, often involving large volumes of processed foods full of hydrogenated fats
etc. ( American diet)

Even on the environmental side, there is hardly a case. Herbivores grazing pasture
do one hell of a lot of good in keeping the grass down. If they didn’t, on the
next lightning strike in summer, the whole lot would go up in massive bushfires,
taking adjoining forests with it.

Perhaps you should try a yummy lamb roast :)

.