I paid a visit to my closest Woolies Supermarket yesterday, which involves a round trip of 100km. While I was in there I paid my usual lip service to the meat department:...."mumble, mumble,....ridiculous!"... headshake and move on! A thought occurred to me right then!...I have noticed every time I visit these Supermarkets that most people who don`t bypass the Meat Department, seem to become very despondent and very few ever seem to buy anything, but tend to walk away and buy other foodstuffs!

The Meat display cases are always fully stocked with virtually every type of meat and all have a use-by date (usually only a few days) on the price label!....the question I ask is "what happens to all this meat that is obviously NOT sold due mainly to price and customer resistance?"

I thought of maybe asking the store manager (if I could find him) but discarded that idea, as I never seem to get an honest answer, if I get any answer at all to a question regarding store policy!

Anyone with even a glimmer of modern day budgetting would realise the total potential value of ALL that meat must be astronomical, considering today`s outrageous prices!

If this "left-over" meat is thrown away,....what a stupid and needless slaughter of Cattle and Sheep! If the meat is being recycled, then we the customers are being taken for a ride! If the meat is claimed as an insurance loss, then it is time it was stopped and more efficient business practices were utilized by reducing the scandalous profiteering that is currently occurring!

Is there anyone out there that is prepared to tell us all the truth about this situation?

*what happens to all this meat that is obviously NOT sold due mainly to price and customer resistance?"*

Clearly your observation in incorrect, for billions of $ of meat
IS sold every year in Australia. If any remains onshelf on the use by date,
a little discount sticker is attached, cutting its price to more like
cost and it whizzes off the shelves, bought by people focussing on price.

As to cost, it depends on the cut. Luxury cuts can be expensive,
many other cuts are in fact cheaper then alot of vegetables and
fruits.

So in terms of $ value for nutrition, meat is cheap. Compare
it to the cost of processed foods in pretty little packets,
on a weight for weight basis and its a bargain!

I'm not sure weight-for-weight basis is all that meaningful. It's surely the calorific-nutritional basis that matters. On that basis, some cuts of meat would still be cheaper in the short run than certain forms of fruit & vegetables, but the long term health (and environmental) costs of eating too much meat and insufficient vegetables are not factored in there either. If they were, meat would be consistently more expensive than fruit & vegetables. Even as a regular meat-eater, I don't believe that would be a bad thing at all.

However yabby has got it right, very little is wasted if any at all.
Try an early Sunday morning walk around those same displays and see discounts you would not believe.
I think very few cattle or any beast are killed just to waste, a lot of money is invested in them.
Humans do waste food too much of it, but it is hard to see many even caring about it unless it costs too much to do so.

I must state in opening that I am "guilty" of eating
*WhaleMeat* on a mini-barby in HiraKata, Nihon.
Dark, v.rich, BUT, I am wet behind the ears, snotty nosed & freely admit 2 indulging in "imperfection" from time 2 time.
..
Have a Heart 4 Jonah in the Whale, as as
!WE ALL KNOW!
it doesn't matter how much Whale or Tiger Donger they eat,
(if all they can do is cry to the war kriminals when defiled)
they'll always b "Little Pin Dicks"
ey *RodneyRude* - HaHaHa
..
Despatch a delegation to *Kyoto* for a Kanji interpretation & Organic Life Form appreciation lesson with our own *MrRoy&HatsumiiSan*
Bu,Shi,Do,Nin & MU.
..
Spare *Jonah* & assist in the prosecution & expulsion of *Muttley*
from Japan.

...Adam...

A good friend of mine used to work at as a meat inspector, I did ask him what they did to the meat to make it look so fresh (red).I was not surprised by the answer he gave me. Sodium Nitrite (poison) to keep it on the shelf longer looking fresh.No wonder he finished up with a brain tumor after handling all that meat over those years. Make up your own mind were it goes from there.I think I made my dog suffer and shortlived by having given her (fresh) meat.I personally won't eat that sh.. anymore,unless it comes straight from grass fed and un-vaccinated animals.

*Sodium Nitrite (poison) to keep it on the shelf longer looking fresh*

You seem to forget that we have labeling laws. Yup, sodium nitrite
is used in some processed meats, salamis and other pork products,
its on the label. Quite different to fresh meat.

What vaccines have to do with it, well you have lost me there lol.

And what do whales have to do with Woolworth's meat?
We do lurch away from our threads sometimes.
Humanity eats meat, once we hunted and butchered it on the spot.
We gained much from the extra protean and grew larger in body size and numbers.
While the chance exists to talk about the subject, animal cruelty is a different subject , who doubts most of us are truly very concerned about it.
But we will continue to eat meat most of us,I have no doubt no hidden hill of wasted meat exists.
Apart from big discounts workers are given out of date food , Charity's too get some , but the discount pen writes fastest as the use by date approaches.
Prices are high , I think they will get higher but if you watch the discounts your freezer will soon help you get around that too.

What happens to all the bones from the spent carcasses? What about all the trim off the meat? Same thing happens to any waste, it all gets collected and processed into meatmeal for use in pet food and other animal feeds.

May be years ago they would use sodium nitrate to extend the shelf life, but labelling laws would prevent that now (or at least you would know what was in the meat) Sodium nitrate is required by law in the manufacture of dry cured meats like proscutto and salami. It is also what makes your hams pink.

Organic beef is hard to find in supermarkets .

However I've taken a liking to the naturally organic and lean kangaroo mince in Coles. It's great in any mince dish with a bit of seasoning and is reasonably priced.

As long as licenced shooters leave plenty of breeders,good strong bucks and give a return back to the farmers that are prepared to forfeit a conventional return from their pastures from cattle ,sheep or grain I think we should all be eating a bit more of it.

ps .Those farmers that run kangaroos for profit wiil probably have large areas of unique and rare perennial native vegation that also conserves all the natural flora and fauna species of their area.

That should give them a CARBON CREDIT with extra financial bonuses.

kartiya jim you highlight a problem I am concerned about, organic or for that matter free range meat.
A lot of us are in fact aware of it but can you trust the label? is it organic?
Kangaroo meat is not yet farmed so it is, and if we do not eat it it will rot in the paddocks.
I too eat it and if cooked right it is good for you.
Of all the meat on supermarket shelves roo meat is mostly sold before the use by date it has a growing market.
We do however need a organic brand we can trust in all foods, we pay more for it and to find doubts about it is unhelpful.

PF: Sodium Nitrate is not the same as Sodium Nitrite.And the industry is NOT required to put it on a label.If you leave your goldfish to long in your tank without the filtering your fish will die from the NITRITE which happens to be their p&p.With the right bacteria,plantgrowth and temperature it can turn into harmless nitrate.

Hi Cuphandle,I found your comment interesting & one more people should ask about many fresh food products.I know of one local store recently who were finally caught out.Once the meat had reached its used by date it was taken out back,have you ever taken a long hard look at marinated meat or when cooking it a slimy or sticky feel?The butcher reported this company to the health dept, he didn't agree with their tactics particularly as some meat had a green tinge.Of course we have the same old excuses from the health dept's,not enough health inspectors to do the job.The company was fined but there should be regular checks,I'm sure there not the only super market that indulged in this practice.

Hi Cuphandle,I found your comment interesting & one more people should ask about many fresh food products.I know of one local store recently who were finally caught out.Once the meat had reached its used by date it was taken out back,have you ever taken a long hard look at marinated meat or when handling before cooking it has a slimy or sticky feel?The butcher reported this company to the health dept, he didn't agree with their tactics particularly as some meat had a green tinge.Of course we have the same old excuses from the health dept's,not enough health inspectors to do the job.The company was fined but there should be regular checks,I'm sure there not the only super market that indulged in this practice.

Hi all
I think it is safe to say that there is no such thing as cruelty-free meat, since an animals has suffered and died so that you can eat it. As for whale meat, the Japanese have every right to tell other countries, including (especially?) Australia to "clean up its own backyard first", intesive farming practices being what they are.

I once had a student in one of my classes who had worked at McDonald's. She said that you can put a Macca's beefburger out in 40 degree heat for several days and it will not go off, so full of preservatives is it.

I took up the issue of free-range pork/ham/bacon at several of my local supermarkets over a period. Each meat manager (those who had heard of the term "free range") said "we only buy from producers who comply with the Code of Practice". I pointed out the provisions of the Code of Practice for pigs, and none - not one - was prepared to discuss the matter any further.

As for meat being a cheaper nutrient - it's probably a cheaper carcinogen and cause of arteriosclerosis than fresh fruit and vegetables, and lacks most of the nutrients. And you can't tell me that the hundreds of trays of meat in supermarket refrigerators all gets sold either. So what DO they do with it?

Cheers
Nicky

*there is no such thing as cruelty-free meat, since an animals has suffered and died so that you can eat it.*

So are you saying Nicky, that the animal would have been better off,
never having lived at all? You have lived, you have suffered no doubt,
was it worth it? When you die, some species will eat your
carcass, thats the reality.

I certainly reject your above statement, as I think that some farm
animals enjoy their lives and lead happy lives. Yes, some even do
die of old age on farms. Yup some get eaten, as we all will in the
end. Fact is, if we risk living, we risk dying. Suffering is about
a question of degree, versus the joys of living, for whatever species.

There are plenty of farm animals who have far better lives, with
far less suffering, then millions of humans. Who eats them once they
die, I don't think they really care. I certainly don't, once I die.

As to meat trays being sold, I suggest that you go and have a look
at your local supermarket, when they get out the pen and start
discounting. You would be amazed!

The Europeans have a good sense of balance, when it comes to diet.
Meat portions are maybe 150g, as part of a complete meal. So
they don't have all the problems that the Americans and now Aussies
have. If people want to rely on Maccas for their nutrition, well
thats up to them. American fast food AFAIK is not about healthy,
balanced nutrition.

Sometimes in the middle of the night but every week a truck pulls up outside every butcher shop and meat retailer.
2 hefty blokes dash in the back door and pick up first the bones then the fat.
If any meat is included it is very rare.
This trundled out and loaded on the truck becomes meat meal or fertilizer ,exported or used locally little is wasted.
While I understand animal cruelty is always wrong, it truly is, we shall always eat meat.
It is, my view alone, counter productive to attack animal cruelty, another issue at the butcher shop.
In fact not much waste will be found in truth I await to see Woolworth's pre pack tail tags and sell them as they sell just about everything else.
I truly do want an end to animal cruelty but do not find it as often as we are lead to believe.

"I once had a student in one of my classes who had worked at McDonald's. She said that you can put a Macca's beefburger out in 40 degree heat for several days and it will not go off, so full of preservatives is it."

I am surprised Nicky that you would believe this comment, and of just one student? Macdonalds have the strictest standards for all their beef patties and there are no preservatives in them. BTW did you know that any abattiors that kill for Macdonalds have to be assessed by Temple Grandin?

Supermarket freshness cannot be trusted. Buy your 'fresh' food at the greengrocer and local butcher. You can ask more questions and they dont have the vast cold storage the supermarkets have so the food has to be fresher.

Hi all

Thanks for the insight, PF. She happened to be the only student I've had who had worked at McDonald's - she was very convincing in explaining the process too. She was also a very intelligent girl funding her uni studies and had no apparent reason to lie.

I just don't remember Temple Grandin visiting any Australian slaughterhouses involved with McDonald's though - Another insight I must've missed.

Congratulations on getting the free range survey up here too. Have you any idea at all of what the responses have been like yet? I'm still not sure whether it would have been better for your purposes if I had appeared to be a bit more clueless in the survey. Any ideas on how to deal with supermarket meat managers on this would be really good too.

I don't buy supermarket meat at all, as it happens - I buy bones and other stuff for my dogs at butchers' shops, as much as I find the smell awful. I also avoid (the major) supermarkets wherever possible as well.

Cheers
Nicky

*I buy bones and other stuff for my dogs at butchers' shops, as much as I find the smell awful.*

I read somewhere today that Aussies eat around 36 kg of beef each
a year, plus of course other meats. Thats beef sales alone of
6.8 billion $. No doubt the industry will somehow survive without
you Nicky :)

Nicky, It's a bit of a problem that you raised ,

Farm animals are born ,have a look around, most in free range conditions ; many have sex, appear to be happy and live to a ripe old age before they are knocked on the head - I would not like to think you and so many other vegetarians were party poopers and don't like them about ?? .

Has anybody asked them??

Nicky , my apologies if you are a meat eater , cheers , Jim .

Hi Yabby and Jim
Clearly the meat industry survives extremely well without me! Others in my household do eat meat, as it happens. Jim, what do you regard as a "ripe old age"? And Yabby, I have a serious question for you that I need an answer to - how old is the animal that is described as "lamb" in the Middle East? And what is a "two tooth"? Much as I hate not being able to be a total know-all, I haven't been able to find something that tells me that. Is there a difference between what Australians regard as "lamb" and what they regard as "lamb" in the Middle East? (Someone once told me that they saw 8-12 week old lambs being loaded onto a ship, but I'm not sure about that)

I happened to be in a Coles supermarket tonight, and I had a look at the meat refrigerators - nothing was "marked down".

Interestingly though - what my partner used to buy as "pork bones" - they are just smallish rib bones, with nothing on them, for $1.99 p/kg for the "slaves" in both Coles and Woolworths. They are now being sold as "barbecue pork ribs" - for $10.99p/kg.

I keep telling him not to complain about the behaviours of Coles and Woolworths if he keeps shopping there. If I buy bones I go to a butchers. Coles and Woolworths also flog bags of "lamb offcuts" which are nothing more than lumps of fat.

On a US animal program on telly tonight they said you shouldn't give your dogs bones because they are "bad for their teeth" - I wouldn't have thought so.

Cheers
Nicky

Kartiya Jim

What do you mean most animals in Australia live free range?
Dont you know that many free range farmers have been pushed out over the years and products from intensive have increased.
I find it a bit hard to believe that you would care less about what any animal thought to be honest Jim.
Did you enquire what the cattle thought before you hit them over the head with the back of an axe as you described on the WA farmers thread?
I mean did you go up to him and ask him if he prefered a clean bullet or you knocking him over the head with the back of an axe?

When your dealing with a large beaste like that its near impossible to straight out kill him with a knock on the head with the back of a tool.
Of course you describe the handling of stock in this manner as all part of the fun.
Fun for whom You or the animal.
I will answer your question re not wanting animals to live or be born Jim.
I would far prefer to see no animals at all to save them from what we so called humane beings put them through.

The world would be healthier and farmers would do better if they grew more vegetables.
No Jim I am not a veggie but thats a simple fact of life.
Re prices at coles Woolworths. Its simply really. We are made to compete with the fact that live exports send all our best supply and meat exports off shore. There is a shortage.
Instead of the Government allocating a number of Australian farmers to supply fresh fruit meat and vegtables to the public [who would be happy to have their taxes sub it=]

They give it to promote our best stock beef vegatables overseas along with our value adding and jobs while we pay dearly and fight for the scapes.

Perhaps its time woman ran this country. We could then put the `tools` where they belong.

Nicky:
Congratulations! I think you are very close to the mark!
As for your question "Two Tooth?".....there appears to be a a very differing opinion on what "Two Tooth" in Lambs/Mutton actually is as presented to the public.
Living in a Queensland Regional area (Wide Bay/Burnett)the description of "Two Tooth Lamb" appears to be, in reality, ....old wethers with their last two teeth remaining in their heads at the time of slaughter,....(of course at 1st Grade prices)!
In comparison a consumer COULD buy genuine "Two Tooth Lamb" at similar prices whilst living in Regional Victoria,.....note that I said COULD, as was the situation when I temporarily resided there for ten years way back in the 70`s.
This reinforces my opinion that Queensland is simply a dumping ground for all the country`s 2nd and 3rd grade produce (at 1st grade prices) as we the consumers are all considered too dumb to really know the difference, especially if we have never tasted the alternative!
Our nearest Woolies Supermarket is NOT open on Sunday, so obviously we do NOT have any super dooper mark-down specials,... as was suggested that I was "ill-informed" in this respect in an early thread!

Pale ,

Correction there . Dispatching animals "to put them out uf their misery" to coin an old phrase was never something that was "part of the fun" , as you claimed.

Sometimes it was done to get meat but I never enjoyed having to do it .

Your preference " Not see any animals at all " is fairly selfish in my book .

It seems some animal protection organisations would really like to see farm animals disappear into museum cases .

*Perhaps its time woman ran this country.*

Gertrude if you ran this country, frankly I'd leave :)

Cuphandle, markdowns on meat can apply any old time.
If there is none in the cabinets, then none is near its
use by date. The meat that I buy on discount most often
is in fact free range chicken. As its more expensive then
other chicken, many people won't buy it, so when I see
it, I buy it and freeze it.

There is no such thing as two tooth lamb. Its either
a lamb or a hogget. If even a teeny weeny bit of those
first two teeth are showing, its downgraded at the meatworks
right away and we are paid a third of the lamb price,
or 1$ a kg in WA. As a sheep its then called a hogget,
the meat classified as common mutton.

As to lambs on boats, the shippers usually want them
weaned and at least 5 months old. But they go by weight,
37kg being the minimum. Mind you, they prefer them larger.
The lambs I sold to them, many weighed around 60kg and
they were thrilled. They were in fact prime lambs too,
worth big money in the ES. But our hopelessly uncompetitive
meat industry in WA does as it pleases when it comes to
price. They have no competition, so dictate whatever they
feel like, take it or leave it. At the moment mutton in
WA is worth 1$ a kg, nearly double that in the East.
Thats one reason why the live trade is so important to
WA farmers. Our hopeless meat industry in WA

Jim
I hope you dont mind me calling you Jim.
There is NO need to put an animal down with knocking it on the head with the back of an axe.
There never was. That was my point. Why on earth didnt you shoot them.

You cant kill a large beast that way!

Re the No more Animals comment.

No actually most animal groups argue if we dont do this or dont do that there will be no whatevers left for the children of the future to see.

They claim we need the animals to survive so the dear litle children can go to a zoo and also to run unspeakable cruel tests on them in labs- Again for our survival.

It is my own personal view only that if you like is selfish Jim.

I dont think humans are superior. I think we are all animals meant to share this earth .
For eg= You and I cant fly from one tree to another.
I wish we could it would be a wonderful way to see whats left of the bush.
However a bird cant post on olo. We are just very different in what each species can do.
As for people never eating meat again.
Oh what a wonderful shot in the arm for the health of any country who did that. Not to mention humanity.

*It seems some animal protection organisations would really like to see farm animals disappear into museum cases .*

Not just animal libbers Jim, but some armchair conservationists too.

I was involved with a case, trying to get some serious corporate
funding behind a campaign to conserve a species called the
bonobo, of which there are only a few thousand left in Africa.

I was prepared to donate a 6 figure sum of my own money to get it
going and rather then rattle the tin, use good business principles
to appeal to corporate benafactors and business people, who hate
seeing their money pissed up against walls by dreamers.

The project involved bringing some bonobo orphans to Australia,
as only a little over 100 exist outside of the Congo and its a
constant war zone, where they are generally eaten for meat if
anyone gets hold of them.

To cut it short, in the end the armchair conservationists made
it clear that it was better for a species to go extinct, then
for any to be in any kind of human captivity.

Likewise we now have fanatics who ignore the fact that tens of
millions of farm animals can in fact lead happy lives, with
far less stress and worry then exists in nature. The new
mantra is that if its farmed, it must be evil and unhealthy.

Its nearly a religious chant these days, by a small group of
very vocal devotees

Ah Yabby
Why not just help the chimps that are clubbed to death by our neighbours.
Regardless of your personal choices the fact remains "farm animals" get zero consideration.

Millions and millions of farm animals kept in condition that are unspeakable!

The truth is people would be a lot healthier if they ate veggies.

Now as you know we[ pale] are running around opening abattoirs so dont get on your high horse ah.

Let me WSPA a little secret.

If we start out simply improving Animal welfare by slaughtering here -but include in each co joint venture with Muslims a Halal vegetable farm at the same location= sooner or later to Halal vegetables are going to give a better return then the meat.
Your good with figures you say so you work it out.

So there is a win win for farmers and animals and the worlds health.
Any problems with that Sir Yabby?
If I can deliver your share holders a better return farming Halal vegetables than Halal meats how many farmers or share holders do you think are going to be complaing?

You be good now Yabbs.
Yup I can think of anybody at all who would be effected by that. Oh accept for of course the cruel live animal exporters.

"Perfect"

Hi all
I'm with PALE this time around (but what on earth are halal vegetables?). Jim and Yabby, you work on the presumption that animals are born for no other reason than to be exploited by humans. I believe that they are here for their own reasons, and they have the right to be what they were born to be - free, and able to behave as they choose (see the Five Freedoms as the minimum standards). Having domesticated some animals (and done them no favours by doing so) humans are obligated not to be cruel to them.

It is unacceptable to conduct shocking experiments on them for purposes that usually bring unreliable results (think thalidomide and other drugs).

It is NEVER acceptable to kill an animal by "knocking it on the head with the back of an axe, and if indeed you make a practice of this you should be reported to the (useless) animal welfare authorities.

Possibly millions of farm animals do have enjoyable lives (until humans determine that they are to be slaughtered). By this time they may have been castrated and otherwise mutilated without pain relief (apologies, Yabby - I took on board what you said about Trisolfen - please correct my spelling). Countless more millions of farm animals live existences (mercifully short) in the most atrocious conditions, such as feedlots and intensive pig and hen and chicken farms. Other animals are brutalized in rodeos, circuses and zoos, wild animals being encaged for their whole lives so humans can look at them. Just think of the sheer massive scale of the cruelty.

You have to ask yourself who the "animals" are on this planet. On the whole, most probably would be better off never being born at all.

Nicky

Cuphandle it was me who made the reference to discounts and that it often happened on Sunday.
Not once,, not ever, in fact never, did I infer you are uninformed, why did you say that?
I truly would like to know how you found an insult that was not there.
It is my view of you ,honestly held, that you truly care about animal welfare.
In fact like many who do you care much more than most, but may I assure you you are not alone.
Most good people truly do, however not with the passion.
That meat is discounted like yabby I stock up, have always done so, and it often is the free range chicken, to go with my free range eggs.
I once shopped for 8 every week and those discounts are not a debating tool they have been the way meat is traded as it gets close to use by date for decades.
Have you an understanding of unions only having one in four workers as members?
Many would like to take part in unions but are frightened away by radical actions, it is true of most things in life.
The cruelty is not taking place because we eat meat, it is taking place, no defense but that is a separate issue.

Nicky, whatever species, we are all born for reasons of natural selection, as
proposed by Darwin. Some species adapt to their environments, other don’t.
Those that don’t, tend to go extinct. As to the meaning of why they or we were born,
no evidence yet of an Almighty who decided on that. As I doubt that you are
the Almighty herself, its not really your decision either :)

The species that have adapted to humans, have in fact thrived in numbers. Yes
millions are mistreated, but millions also lead relatively contented and happy
lives. Millions of humans suffer at times. Would they all be better off dead?

You go on about farm animals suffering. So lets take mulesing. When performed
by an accredited professional, it helps alleviate huge amounts of suffering and
benefits those animals for life. Yup, the use of Trisolfen, if made available to
farmers, would make it even better. I remind you that millions of males on
this planet have been circumcised with no anesthetics. Do they suffer life
long trauma that makes their lives unlivable? You girls better go and give those
poor guys a comforting hug :)

I think that you girls constantly overlook the fact that nature herself can be
extremely cruel and nobody cares. Death by starvation, due to overpopulation,
if herbivore species are not reduced by predators in nature, is common reality,
something on a scale you can hardly envisage. Death takes days, weeks, months,
that’s the reality of it. Animals overrun with ticks, fleas, lice, worms etc, are
also common in nature. Blind kangaroos have come hopping onto my farm,
due to eye diseases.

In contrast to that, my animals are fed when feed is short, those suffering are
put out of their misery, those with insects attacking them are treated. No
predators harass them all night, as in nature.

No wonder they thrive here, they get a far better deal then in nature! They
might also object to your opinion that they should never have had lives
at all

Hi Yabby
That depends on whether or not you subscribe to Darwin's theory of evolution.

Mulesing is a cheap way out of protecting animals who have been genetically interfered with in order to get more wool (hence the extra folds of skin). Crutching twice a year has been shown to be effective but it costs, that's why mulesing happens. That's called animal husbandry, and it has to do with not having far more animals than you can properly care for (emphasis on properly).

I understand that mulesing leaves the animal more prone to skin cancer (if it is allowed to live long enough)

Had the sheep been left alone to evolve naturally flystrike wouldn't be a problem. What do you do when flies strike at folds of the skin in other parts of the body? "Mules" that too?

Do you think it's also okay to spay heifers using the techniques currently used without pain relief? That's an extraordinarily painful and invasive procedure. Is electro-immobilization okay as well? If any of your dogs is a female, was she spayed without anaesthetic?

As for males of the human variety being circumcised, that's a bit beyond my experience, I'm afraid. I know males who have and who have not and neither group appears to have been psychologically ruined for life. Having chosen early in life not to have children it was never a decision I was going to have to make, but I understand that it is practically banned these days (wonder how the kosher faith is going to deal with that?). Female circumcision, as practiced by the people to whose tender mercies you send your lambs, is entirely another matter, from what I've read.

I reckon you should get in business with PALE and its Muslim friends (as they have invited), and get slaughterhouses in WA back up, running and competing with each other again. But then what would we talk about?

Nicky

Nicky, you are of course free to deny evolution theory, despite its
overwhelming acceptance by science and its teaching at every major
university on the planet. You are not the first to have their
own little religious view of the world for your own good reasons.

You clearly have something in common with fundamentalist Xtians,
Muslims and a whole host of other religions! Never mind the facts,
lets just believe what we feel like believing. Ok thats your right,
just not your right to inflict your beliefs on the rest of us.

I have news for you about mulesing, as I in fact did an experiment
this year with some merino lambs. They were all shorn in Oct,
by December, despite the heat, they were flystruck once again.
The bottom line to this is that well meaning animal libber people,
who don't fully understand the issues, will land up causing much
suffering for millions of animals and not even be aware of it, through
pure ignorance. All very sad really IMHO.

Why should people want to spay heifers? Either they are breeders
and kept for breeding, or they are sold for meat, its one or the
other.

Circumcision without anesthetic is still common world wide. Where
is it banned and since when? All those males around you, clearly
still need your hugs and comfort :)

IMHO Gertrude lives in her own little world, I don't even try to
go there lol. Perhaps she missed today's Weekly Times, where
farmers are ploughing in veggies due to no markets. But hey,
it keeps her off the streets

Nicky, i can't imagine any farmer worth his/her salt would not be a devotee of the five freedoms. I assume these are the freedoms to which you refer: http://www.fawc.org.uk/freedoms.htm
Battery hens would be the closest to failure, but for the life of me I can't figure out why our backyard chooks have to sleep 3 cramped to a box, when there are actually more than one box available each, or why they are practically always shoulder to shoulder even outside the run. Granted you wouldn't want to be born a male chick, that would suck.

You just have to remember farming is a business where a happy animal is a productive one. Distressed animals, or those suffering malnourishment/dehydration just don't do well and won't make a decent price at market. It just doesn't make sense to have a production system contrary to their needs.

It is for these reasons feedlots have a defined amount of unused space in the pens for socialisation, and the ones with shade sails or equivalent would get a tick for each of those freedoms.
It's why sheep farmers have to hogtie the odd flyblown sheep to bring home for treatment. And why they mules the sheep so that it is only the odd one(that would come under prevention)

The 5 freedoms aren't onerous, it's the extraordinary expectations of animal libbers beyond them, that in reality can never be fully placated.

It's interesting you bring Darwin into the equation, survival of the fittest and all. In the end aren't these sheep that are subject to mulesing the most numerous and long lived of any farmed animal in Australia, their cousins being suited to meat production certainly don't live as long. In nature symbiotic relationships exist between species, this is merely another.

I wonder how much less pain there is in spaying compared to labour and birth for a young heifer. My wife never lets me forget the pain she went through. Never.

Hey, Rojo, I love it (the humour, that is). Women of the human variety tend to have more choice about their reproduction though (thinking of dairy cattle in this instance). I agree, I've seen childbirth on TV and decided some time ago it wasn't for me.

Here are the Five Freedoms:-

1. Freedom from Hunger and Thirst - by ready access to fresh water and a diet to maintain full health and vigour.

2. Freedom from Discomfort - by providing an appropriate environment including shelter and a comfortable resting area.

3. Freedom from Pain, Injury or Disease - by prevention or rapid diagnosis and treatment.

4. Freedom to Express Normal Behaviour - by providing sufficient space, proper facilities and company of the animal's own kind.

5. Freedom from Fear and Distress - by ensuring conditions and treatment which avoid mental suffering

Perhaps you can elighten us about where intensively farmed pigs, battery hens and meat chickens fit - with particular regard to (4) and (5). The (cattle) feedlots I have seen contained an absolute sea of cattle, none with room to move, and no shelter at all.

The saleyards I have seen are much the same. Codes of Practice have been developed for saleyards (and transporters), but they are voluntary, and my observations (usually weekly) are that they are totally ignored. One says that hooved animals shouldn't be left in concrete sale pens for long periods because they get "footsore" - Guess where they leave them the day before/after the sales? But what the hell? Some bureaucratic fatcat probably got paid a fortune to put them together.

Yabby, my information about mulesing and crutching came from a sheep farmer in WA, and one here. I guess you mean by "Gertrude" someone from PALE (there seems to be some identity crises there) - but PALE advises on another thread that it has these "co-joint" enterprises running in several states.

As for subscribing to Darwinism, or any form of religion, I have reserved my judgment. I might get superstitious on my deathbed and "find God", who knows?

Nite all
Nicky

Yabby
Gertrude isnt following her dreams at all.

Read below and see part of Sub to Senate Enquiry into Animal Welfare.

Read the proposal for Halal Vegtable farms cosmetics Halal meats.
Whom Does it say it is from Yabby? Not Gertrude>

SUBMISSION TO THE SENATE COMMITTEE FOR RURAL AND REGIONAL AFFAIRS AND TRANSPORT

ANIMAL WELFARE BILL, 2003 PRIVATE MEMBERS BILL

SUBMISSION FROM (AFIC) AUSTRALIAN FEDERATION Of ISLAMIC COUNCIL AND COUNCILS IN CONJUNCTION WITH (HKM) HALAL KIND MEATS, PALE AND RSPCA QLD

Thank you for the opportunity to provide comments on the provisions of the National Animal Welfare Bill 2003.

We would request this to be published and would like to give evidence at your enquiry. Thank You

Australian Federation of Islamic Council and Councils (AFIC) holds concerns for Animal Welfare.

(AFIC) Australian Federation of Islamic Councils working with (HKM) Halal Kind Meats has put together a program to foster joint ventures with overseas live importers and investors with Australian Farmers in co joining or by lease or by personal arrangement and operating FREE RANGE Farms for all Animals and co-jointly owned abattoirs within Australia.

Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) have amongst other things Coordinate the Muslim Community across the Nation and represent all Australian Muslims in Government and interfaith affairs.

Australian Federation of Islamic Councils (AFIC) co-jointly with (HKM) Halal Kind Meat are responsible for Halal Meat and Food Products Certification.
Australian Federation of Islamic Council (AFIC) also supports the establishment of many Muslim Animal Welfare Groups and encourages all members of the Community and other Animal Welfare Groups to make contact with the email address that will be provided below.
What is much less debatable is the proposition that people who treat animals decently are usually far better human beings than those who don't.

Yabby Of course some farmers have had to drive their crops into the ground.
Thats because they were not savy enough to have worked the trade deals and the country is flooded with cheap imports.

That wont happen once we have our halal vegetable farms I assure you.

Nicky Thanks.

Hi Nicky, It's all good fun unless she finds out I've written that.

As to dairy cows, it's a point regularly made about their pregnancies, but what do you think these cows would be doing out in the wild(presumably you'd like them set free). My assumption is that through lack of contraception pregnancy may well occur, regularly.

re: 5 freedoms ,

No 1, you'd find hard to fault anywhere, but for those experiencing the severest of droughts. Lack of water and food is least likely to happen in intensive industries. Those animals in their natural habitat would be less fortunate.

No 2, Comfort is particularly subjective, dependant on acclimitisation, and whether you know any better. My experience as a once upon a time dairy farmer, was providing straw bedding in the stalls over winter, so the animals were comfortable and warm. Shelter is from the elements as well as predators.
From memory I specified feedlots with shade for tick no 2. Personally I think that should be a prerequisite.

No 3, Sick animals are costly. Even if you left the welfare aspect to one side, it is in the farmers best interests to maximise the health of their stock. It would be lovely if all pain, injury and disease could be avoided, but it can't, yet anyway. For humans or animals.

No 4, I'm guessing the main gripe is space as company from an animals own kind is hardly a problem in a chook shed or feedlot. Again subjective, but I understand regulations are changing in regard to space. I suppose its a bit like comparing the life of a family of 13 living in a chinese apartment, and a single person in a 5 bedroom Brisbane Mcmansion. Who is happier?

No 5, What do the animals have to fear? Presumably they will be afraid of someone who approaches, just as they would of thunder, or low flying areoplanes. If this point regards deliberately frightening, then I'd find it difficult to imagine why doing so would be good for business

*I believe that they are here for their own reasons, and they have the right to be what they were born to be - free, and able to behave as they choose *

Nicky, its you who is adding your religious philosophies here. I'll
stick to science.

I remind you that in nature, free as animals are born, once species
eats another. Somewhere in there, we are all part of the foodchain
and that includes you and me. We can show, what happens to your
carcass when you die, there is no dispute about that.

*I agree, I've seen childbirth on TV and decided some time ago it wasn't for me.*

Ok clearly you are a sook, when it comes to a bit of pain. Sheesh,
when we were kids, we lived and we suffered all the time lol.
We were adventurous, breaking and cutting ourselves fairly regularly,
which meant the normal rush to the emergency ward yet once again.
You must have been one of those goodie-goodie kids which we all
despised :)

As to meat and being healthy, I have had a number of anemic looking
types with no energy, tell me all about the wonders of the veggie
brigade. I've just looked up some figures. The Indians tend to
eat very little meat, plenty of vegetarians there. Their life
expectancy is 59!

Gertrude confuses American processed food with a healthy balanced
diet. I'd rather judge the opinions of qualified nutritionists
when it comes to that topic, then a bunch of emotional animal
libbers. But then again, you people freely comment about sheep,
another topic about which you know little, so not much changes...

Hey Rojo and Yabby
Yes, I will admit to being a total sook - but not when I was a kid; then I was into all the stuff that Yabby describes, including playing A-grade hockey. But childbirth's a whole other extreme, although I recognize that the people I've seen on telly doing it are probably paid to make that sort of noise. Anyway - after the childborth, you're left with the kid/s - and I wasn't into that either, too much else to do. Rojo, I was told (by my mother) that once you see the kid after it's born you forget about the pain but I didn't believe that either.

Yabby, what happens in nature is a bit of a different ball-game from the mass, industrialized slaughter the human species engages in. It is a matter of survival, and I know it isn't pretty. The human species, however, is the only one that mass-breeds animals simply to mass-slaughter them in their millions before they even get to properly grow up. You simply can't compare the two.

Rojo, as far as intensively farmed animals are concerned, I'll tell you the difference. When I brought home my "spent" (ain't that cute?) hens from a battery farm, they had no feathers and could barely stand. Three years later, they have full feathers and are working on teaching the dogs some manners (gone feral in revenge, perhaps?) I haven't been to an intensive pig farm but my friend has, and filmed and described it, in awful detail. Animals Australia's film couldn't have been made up. Being a pig in Australia sucks. Being in a feedlot or a saleyard sucks too, especially if at some point in your life you have been comparatively free. Being in a slaughterhouse sucks according to meatworkers I have talked to, who say the animals know what is happening and are terrified.

PALE, those submissions are five years old, and the Bill never went anywhere. I was concerned about that one at the time because it seemed to be more about promoting thisHKM crowd than animal welfare.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, It's all good fun unless she finds out I've written that.

Hilarious you’re such a child.I think I will get another one too.

Maybe Gertrude'

Yabby Said=

Gertrude if you ran this country, frankly I'd leave :)

Gertrude replies.
Ah, some real motivation ah:)

Re your theory on eating meat=

Some of the healthiest people with the longest lives, lowest cancer rates and highest IQ's are Vegetarians.

Take Albert Einstein for example, he was a vegetarian. More famous vegetarians can also be found here.

"Men who eat red meat as a main dish five or more times a week have four times the risk of colon cancer of men who eat red meats less than once a month," says Edward Giovannucci of Harvard Medical School.

Heavy red-meat eaters were also twice as likely to get prostate cancer in his study of 50,000 male health professionals. Source: Time Magazine

That's just one study. Looking at others, says Lawrence Kushi of the University of Minnesota, "the evidence is quite consistent that red meat is associated with a higher risk of colon - possibly prostate - cancer":)

Oh BTW Yabbs you could send a copy of that to Sam the idiot who is such an embarrassment to this Nation for tomorrows Australian Day.

Possibly we could replace him with some of our great achievers of the year. Hey Yabbs I think I found my niche= Yep a bloody natural.

Ah, something rells me he might not be calling vegans scum bums and whatever this year.
(A little birdie told me) but 'hey' in case I miss anything keep us posted ah Nicky.

Getting back to the "bone" of this thread=

Australian grocery prices have left 46% in ten years.

The highest in the world. Lamb 73%. Beef 63%.

Farmers are getting less for their stock and paying three times as much with feed and costs.

Farmers gets 2.70 kilo and it’s sold for $16.oo kilo.

The Answer= more competition- reopen plants. Stop the cruel live trade.

Live Animal Exports are hurting Australian Families at the supper market.

Thats whats happening to meats:)

Well Nicky, there clearly is a bit of pain involved in childbirth, but we haven’t
decided to ban it yet :) Clearly people are prepared to wear a bit of pain occasionally, as being part of life. Ok keep it to a minimum.

There is mass slaughter in nature, every single day. We are talking
philosophical principles here. Industrialisation comes with trying to cram ever
more billions of people onto the planet, but that’s another story. I’m the first
to loudly complain that all women on the planet don’t have access to family
planning etc.

It seems to me however, that you are kind of throwing all farming into one
pile, instead of seeing the large differences that exist. If you want industrialised
farming, go to Europe, the USA or Asia. Australia still has more extensive livestock
farming then most nations.

Being a pig in Australia only sucks for some pigs, not all. Pigs on PFs farm sound
like they have it pretty good. Likewise I’ve seen pigs in shelter type systems
quite content with their world. I have yet to see any farming industry shown
on an animal libber website, where they give an unbiased view, showing all sides
of an industry, good and bad. They show the worst extremes and then suggest
we give up meat, clearly they have an agenda.

Now as you know there is good and bad in marriages. If I was anti marriage and
created a website showing little more then bashed and arguing spouses, would that
be a fair and unbiased presentation of marriage? Certainly not for people who
have great marriages and they do exist. They would rightfully point that out and
that is what I am doing with farming, pointing out that’s its not all black and white
as is being projected by those with agendas and “marketing campaigns”

Animals in a meatworks would be more nervous about new and changing
circumstances then be aware of what is next. That’s why we need people like
Temple Grandin, who can think as cattle think, not as humans think, then
create suitable conditions-for-them

*Take Albert Einstein for example, he was a vegetarian.*

Oops Gertrude, Einstein became a strict vegetarian in early
1954 and died in April 1955. Not exactly an advert for your
cause :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein

Your studies refer to heavy meat eaters, not people who eat
a balanced diet. Processed meats are not even considered
in the studies, compared to fresh unprocessed meats.

Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, the world is full of really
smart meat eaters!

Perhaps you should take Sam's advice and cook a yummy
lamb roast for a change :)

Nicky Said

PALE, those submissions are five years old, and the Bill never went anywhere. I was concerned about that one at the time because it seemed to be more about promoting this HKM crowd than animal welfare.

Pale replies.
Nicky you can’t be serious

Fact is it was the "first time in the history of Australia "that Muslim Leaders lodged a sub to animal welfare.

Your friends didn’t want to "hear" or "know" yet "claim to be promoting chilled."

Not one word from so called Peak Animal Welfare people?

No, too content with people calling farmers and Muslims barbaric!

AFICS sub if you recall expressed their requests to work *united with *everybody and requested people to make contact.

Not one so called Animal lover acknowledged their sub!

Disgusting, rude shameful.

And Yet- When Lyn went to ME and I asked her if she would like a Media Release from them in support= they didn’t hesitate! See

http://www.livexports.com/afic.html

Of course we have to create a new industry to phase out the live trade.
You say it wasn’t about Animal Welfare. Huh?

It was from the Muslims themselves working in conjunction with among others the RSPCA QLD and pale.

The only Animal Welfare organization that supported it was the NSW Humane Society apart from pale RSPCA QLD.


The sub read = to promote better Animal Welfare by reopening abattoirs “and” they were very interested to explore the possibility to introduce 'Gas to render the animals asleep before having their throats cut.'

So what’s was your concern Nicky?

That it was approached in a sensible business manner.

Also please remember it was Muslims very first sub to Parliament.

Your `friends `shunned their sub along with pale RSPCA QLDS efforts.

The background of the stupid jealously was entrenched well before we came along.

Your friends need, as Yabby said, to get professional advice from people "within the Industry".

Less Uni professors that would know how to run a farm let alone a plant.= And as Hugh Said get off their high horses !~

For the Animals!

Hi all
PALE, this is a very short extract from Animals Australia's "Halal Meat Exports - a Viable Alternative":-

"...Australia’s trade in chilled and frozen ‘halal accredited’ sheep meat to the Middle East is increasing significantly each year. For example, mutton exports reached 52,175 tonnes for the 2006/2007 fiscal year, a 42% increase on the previous year, and lamb exports to the Middle East topped 20,000 tonnes for the first time, a 24% increase on the previous year (source: MLA). Together this level of sheep meat export is equivalent to 3.4 million live sheep (based on a ‘live sheep equivalent’ of 21kg/carcase)...".

The AFIC media release you cited doesn't appear to be supporting anything Lyn White has achieved - it looks a bit more like a face-saving exercise AFTER the exposure of AA's investigations. I've also just re-read some of the submissions to the RRAT enquiry, and none of the animal advocacy groups who submitted even mention PALE, much less "shun" it as you say - they include Animals Australia, Animal Liberation NSW and Against Animal Cruelty Tasmania. They address multiple sections of the proposed bill too. PALE must have made about six submissions - HSI provides a one paragraph comment in support of PALE/HKM "humane slaughter practices", but none of the submissions seem to state what those are. Perhaps you could be more specific.

And from PETA's website www.savethesheep.com (latest media 06/12/2007)

"...Newkirk also explains that the atrocities inherent in live export would be eliminated if the animals were slaughtered in Australia and the meat was then shipped to the Middle East..."

You really can't keep claiming that no-one is supporting the animals being slaughtered in Australia - they just choose, for whatever reason, not to do it your way - as is their right. They are all multi-focussed organizations, addressing many issues whereras PALE seems to stick with specifics - as is its right.

Nicky

pale, you've been visiting peta websites now haven't you. Love the Einstein reference, amusing that a man vegetarian for about 18 months is given fully fledged accreditation to the veggie brigade, but they can't run awat fast enough from someone like Hitler.(yes I know he did like the odd sausage in his primarily veg diet, from age 18)

The IQ test results from a study comparing veggies with omnivores were an even bigger laugh. 23%(from memory) of the vegetarian respondents nominated fish and/or chicken as part of their diets. The big question is did they lower or actually raise the veggie average IQ. I think it was 106.

While meat is a significant fisk factor it's not claimed as a cause, and "meat" includes all that processed junk in frankfurts, spam etc. Frankly they are comparing vegetarians conscious of their health(rightly or wrongly) with not only average meat consumers but those that are on the lowest dietary rung, fastfood, alcohol excess and especially smoking. Even they know they've got problems.
It must be confronting for those vegetarians who find they are not immune to such cancers despite their efforts.

The greatest thing is to enjoy life, and food, notably demonstrated when bacon was said to be high in nitrosamines, a known carcinogen. When the news hit the streets in the UK, bacon consumption actually went up. Maybe all publicity is good after all.

good luck with your next child, I think thats what you meant.

Err hang on Nicky. Last time your girl Ingrid from Peta
was on tv, I seem to recall that she was planning to have
her own meat barbecued when she dies. Now that is of course
up to Ingrid, but you have yet to give good reason why
any of us should take her seriously. Peta makes millions
of $ by pushing emotional buttons and rattling tins, but
I don't give them an ounce of credibility for honesty.

I seem to recall in the distant past, that even you told
me that farming was a business. Yup it is and we have a duty
of care. We can show today that standards on live ships
are pretty good, mortalities are minimal and huge improvements
have been made. We spend money on animal welfare improvements
in the ME, something which none of you can claim. Farmers
as usual are leading the way!

But as has been admitted here, even if we shipped sheep on
the Queen Mary, that still would not be good enough for
fanatics.

If Peta, AA and others object to us earning our livelyhood, they
are free to buy sheep in the market and slaughter them here.

I don't tell the veggie brigade what cars they should or should
not drive, Australian made or imports. Yet we constantly have people
who seem to not have the foggiest about livestock, trying to tell
farmers how they should run their businesses.

Now I realise that lots of money can be made by animal libber groups,

rattling tins about the live trade. Without a cause, no doubt
donations would drop through the floor and some of you might be
out of a job. Have any of you ever thought of getting real
jobs :) ?

.

Hey guys, settle down! I was only putting PALE's claims into perspective, and I'll probably be right in it for doing so. Rojo, you could be right.

Yabby, please don't worry about me and a real job - I have more work than I can realistically cope with most of the time. As for the scientific study comparing vegetarians to omnivores, can you give us a reference for that please? I'd like to try and work out how I couod possibly have managed to get all my qualifications if I am so undernourished/deficient in carcinogens. I will probably find that terribly difficult, but will give it a try.

But you guys should be more worried - the latest revelations relate to colon and prostate cancer - the former more prevalent in men and the latter only in men (women get childbirth. Unless they're in the Middle East, where they can be publicly flogged if they are raped by men, and/or stoned to death).

As for the ships, and the farmers' contributions to animal "welfare" in the Middle East - watch the evidence. I rest my case. You just want to be able to sleep at night, and that's why you believe the MLA LiveCorp propaganda (just as you accuse us of believing the views of our "side")

And guys - think about it - have I once said, on any thread, that eating meat should be outlawed? All I've said is that cruelty should be.

Nite folks
Nicky

Rojo

With Nicky, as kids go.

Yabby- Funny as! First time I looked at a veggie site.

"I should have known."

Nicky

"Yes we can claim that". Remember the letters Nicky.?

The ones you wanted us to post.

If you set up a hot mail address your welcome to them.

AFIC did put that out to support Lyn and she was greatful.

"Thats right" none of the so called leaders reponded to a sub Muslim Leaders, RSPCA QLD.
Yup= Now you have got it. "Thats my point".

Go one step futher (since you raised it) Andrew Bartlett not only ignored it also but 'personally instructed" his web master to to the pale in conjunction with RSPCA QLD petition against live exports link offhis web site "after it was lodged."?

BTW they had to fight to get it up in the first place. Members figured as AA were up there and they were in Melbourne they wanted QLD locals up too(fair enough)

Be honest Nicky= Thats why you post here isnt it.[ To support AA and PETA.0 Thats fine but dont expect us to drop to our knees like all the other groups.

Now speaking of PETA they refused to reply to us ' ever' and hung up in Taryns and Antjes ear when they contacted by phone=?

Three Times!- Years ago. I am just wondering Nicky what is our crime.

Here we are offering to share our MOUs with Aboriginal councils and Muslim leaders just wanting to improve animal welfare.

We work in conjunction with RSPCA QLD who lets face it are the legal organisation.

Ingred going on TV telling public she was BBQ her skin when she died.

For God Sake! Dont you get it Nicky? Nobody listens to PETA.

The connection between them and AA isnt helping= Its hindering!

Wish for the animals sake you gave us a fair go.

Yabby - We dont pay ourselves.

Nor do we fund raise because if we did that it would take too much time away from working on projects to help animals.

I had an interesting and disturbing conversation with someone that supplies those photos and 'raid' videos for AA.

She doesnt give a shite about the suffering of the pigs she photographs. Its all just to try and shock people.

She is not interested in helping the pigs in the pictures or changing their conditions for the better - just stop eating meat, thats her only agenda.

How hollow and uncaring, to go in there and just use those poor animals and exploit their misery for her own purposes.

Doesnt matter about the here and now, just a fantasy about converting the world to vegetarianism.

Hey Folks!
I posted this "discussion subject" to try to get somebody out there to tell me convincingly EXACTLY what happens to ALL the surplus unsold meat when it reaches it`s "use by" date....but for some strange reason this post has now turned into a further discussion about the rights and the wrongs of Halal!
I live in regional Queensland where Woolies is NOT open on Sunday and I have never seen a mutitude of "markdown" prices in any of the supermarket meat sections at any time,and believe me I have looked ....thus the reason for the original question!
I strongly suspect that we are all being screwed by these big businesses who are using any excuse at all to apply higher prices to ALL commodity items ( with very little if any being returned to the grower or producer)
I suspect that a large amount of "used by date" meat is given away to friends, employees and the like, ...(after being claimed as an insurance loss by the company concerned),....and it has been going on for a very long time!
I had hoped that there was somebody out there who is or had been prepared to blow the whistle on this business, which is indirectly costing the consumers a small fortune in inflated prices...but there is obviously NOT!
I DID expect a lot of support for Woolies as there are an awful lot of "Mum and Dad" shareholders out there who seem to be morally blinded by the great dollar sign!

Cup handle

Was that damage control?

Haven’t heard from. Interesting timing.

Are you not concerned about pales complaints against the peak animal welfare group relating to the Animal Welfare Senate Enquiry?

Tell me why is it that you think they were not interested and in fact black listed us just for trying to help the Animals.

Lets face it to pull off a MOU with Muslim Leaders to work together to improve lives of farm animals was a shot in the arm for animals.

No comment to that or PFs comment “either”.

Ever wondered why after twenty years there are not a huge amount of good farmers working together with these people. Because PF is right.

There are good farmers out there. PF is one of them but have you girls ever really acted on any advice given.


PF told it the way it is.


If you care about animals do your own thing and also listen to good farmers.

I am not trying to be nasty to you Cup handle Nicky, Dickie.

I am trying to help you help the animals and PF is one hundred percent correct.

Look up. We answered your questions. You will be pleased to know Chris Bowen and Kevin Rudd are opening an enquiry into prices from farm gate to plate..

It will run six months.

Halal is a trillion dollar industry about meat.' Pork is Forbidden BTW

Didnt you see PFs comment.

We are very fortunate to have a couple of farmers posting on these OLO threads

What troubles me is why you animal lovers do not listen to them...

Has it ever occurred to you that maybe- just maybe they might know a tad more than people who are not farming.

Or have you ever stopped to think perhaps they just might want to improve Animal Welfare in their own way.

Or that they feel sorry so many people are misleading possibly.

I suspect your comment was to defuse PFs comment.

Pale can say that they are in agreement with PFs comment based “on experience.”

Cup Handel it is your thread and a very good one thanks.
My information about what we once called blood and Bone wagons came from personal experiences.
Too many years ago mum and dad called this then just teenager into the house.
That told this country kid I was on Sunday nights train to Sydney to start work .
Monday before dawn I got in the truck that picked up the waste, two years latter I left never knowing you could take a day of sick or that 12 hours days meant paid overtime I never got.
I did learn about waste meat products, it is far to valuable to waste so it is not.
The fat or lard if you wish is in foods soap, cosmetics and just about every thing.
The bone becomes meat meal and that well used and known fertilizer blood and bone.
In those two years I saw very little wasted meat, if I did it was in those baskets on the way to being reused.
Threads wander, surely no harm done? animal welfare is along side religion this forums more talked about subject.
That kid is better of for those two years but was replaced even then by another kid who would work for little as I drive around Sydney all these years after I still recall those shops and the hot meat waiting to feed tradesmen and me at 4am.

*I have never seen a mutitude of "markdown" prices in any of the supermarket meat sections at any time,and believe me I have looked*

Cuphandle, have you ever looked to see how much of the meat in the
cabinets is still there on the use by date? As I generally shop
every week to ten days, I check every time and most of it still has
at least a week of shelf life to go. Just the free range chicken,
they seem to have a problem with in my store.

As to your conspiracy theory about insurance companies paying, I bet
you they don't pay! Insurance companies are not that silly.

If you want value for money meat, it pays to buy roasts and slice
them up yourself. You can buy legs of lamb on special for 6.99,
yet diced lamb costs 15$. The same applies to the others, as
people cook less roasts these days, wanting convenience and a few
minutes of cooking only.

As to supermarket profits, we know the base figures. Last time
I looked, Woolies were making about 4c in the $, Coles about 2-3c
in each $ of turnover, as Woolies are more efficient at what they
do. Costs are the problem for supermarkets. All those people
employed, wages, super, workers comp, admin, etc. Gross margins
are about 30-35% on average, 90% of that goes on costs to run the
stores. Perishables are often a bit higher, as alot of veggies etc
have to be thrown out.

Just called into Woolies on my way back into town and picked up a couple of 'reduced' in price free range chickens - and its only saturday afternoon!

I think Cuphandle you choose not to look? You are looking for a dark answer and its just not there in my opinion. BTW, I am from a very small country town.

You have been told a couple of times now what happens to the meat but it seems you are not taking any notice.

Hi all
Cuphandle, we HAVE digressed, but I think some of the comment here has been useful.

PALE - I'm still at a bit of a loss about your comment about no-one supporting the PALE/HKM/AFIC submission to the RRAT enquiry into the National Animal Welfare Bill. Why would they? Comment was sought about the proposed National Animal Welfare Bill, not the submissions made to it, and that's what everyone did - they addressed the various sections of the Bill as they saw them. I just don't know what you were expecting, because it was obviously not a forum for animal advocacy groups to discuss specific slaughter methods and the like and express support for one submission or another, or organization (at the time the submissions were not available publicly anyway). Its scope was wider than that.

I have said repeatedly that I am not a member of any animal advocacy group, and that is still the case. I simply quoted the material that is available from their websites because you say that they do not support a carcass trade - clearly they do. Certainly given the amount of money PETA has to devote to animal issues, I'd suggest that a lot of people DO listen to them. I have absolutely no idea why anyone from PETA would have hung up phones on people from PALE. Possibly they didn't want to be seen to be aligned with the HKM cause (i.e. appearing to endorse/encourage particular slaughtering companies - I can understand that). Unfortunately, PALE has possibly aligned itself too closely with that organization in terms of credibility as an "animal welfare group"; it seems to be constantly promoting it and they seem to have common office bearers. Perhaps Andrew Bartlett felt the same way, with Animals Australia being the definitive group in the country anyway - who knows? Did you ask him? If you recall, I did suggest that these electronic petitions are next to worthless for parliamentary purposes.

PF, I'll discuss your comment a bit later (space limitations)

Cheers
Nicky.

Hi Nicky, I think this is what you're after:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/6180753.stm

The actual study was on a pay per view site so I have taken a usually reputable news interpretation as my source. Did a quick calculation and I was wrong about the number of vegetarians saying they ate fish/chicken. It was 27%.

Hi Rojo
Thanks so much for that - it was interesting reading. I think some people who regard themselves as being vegetarian think it means just red meat, and others think fish are not excluded. I don't know where those views come from, but I guess Yabby will be able to enlighten us.

PF - I think I might know the person to whom you refer - if it is who I think it is, she most certainly cares about the animals, or she would not expose herself to the risks that she does for her film and photographs. Her work is regarded as invaluable. I suspect that in the course of what she does, she sees such terrible things that she possibly finds it hard to articulate them. Alternatively, perhaps she finds it advantageous to her work to present a different persona to farmers!

Cheers
Nicky

rojo - I deal with a few vet students and a lot of them become instant vegetarians when their studies start to reveal the realities of life to them. Interestingly, quite a few arrive armed with their tins of tuna and salmon!

Maybe if they had to treat fish they might realise that that is what is crammed in those little seamingly non offensive tins.

I wonder how many remain vegetarian after the shock of their rude awakening has faded.

Nicky - it is still my opinion that she used the animals for her own agenda and if given the chance to do something for the pigs she photographs, she wouldnt bother because it would not result in the outcome SHE wants. Her interests are put first.

Nicky said
PALE - I'm still at a bit of a loss about your comment about no-one supporting the PALE/HKM/AFIC submission to the RRAT enquiry into the National Animal Welfare Bill. Why would they?
Pale replies
Err, Nicky you mean why they wouldn’t don’t you?. She sits on that board. Apart from that pale has many times made approaches.

PALE were was black listed by the Peak Animal Welfare Groups.

That includes WSPA BTW that Dr Hugh Wirth still is CEO for Australia.?

More to point- Why would they want to? Simple-. Because it was set up as a Veggie organization.

“At least be honest with the Public”.

How can they claim to be the peak Animal Welfare Organization Of this country?

This is a meat eating country. Apart from which it is totally unreasonable to block us to have contact with people who work with them under their umbrella.

Peter McGauran was aware of this Nicky.

Let me WSPA a little secret Nicky. When I first` ever` contacted them it was to offer a free office and staff to help them.

She answered the phone she said AA did not does live exports because it was ‘too political”

That would have been news to Christa the German lady who started Animals Angles and mortgaged her house to send evidence and video footage for 20 years!

Anyway, she said contact Green peace or Animal liberation.

She said in a very aggressive tone= Where are you did you say?

I replied QLD and I am hoping to see Andrew Bartlett and we are going to work with RSPCA QLD.

She replied- Well if you want to know anything you will have to as me because Andrew won’t work with “anybody other than me.!”

She went on to say-
We are old friends from years ago. She was very very unfriendly and aggressive and I was really taken back and very surprised.

Our first meeting a lady took everybody’s contacts and told them not to join pale but AA.

Pale wants people like PF on the board- not her!

Rojo, I read the BBC article and I have no doubt that those sorts of figures could
be produced by that kind of study. What they actually mean, is of course another
matter.

If I did a study about the Orange People, I’d probably get even higher results.
Their movement was full of doctors, lawyers, teachers, academics etc. I actually
used to have a lot of time for their old Bhagwan, who was an amusing and
smart fellow. Mind you, despite him claiming to be nothing more then a smart
philosophy professor, his half million followers turned the whole thing into
a kind of religion, as they yearned for meaning in their lives.

Most of the veggies that I know landed up going to Uni, where they were exposed
to reading about philosophy etc and landed up reading Singer and similar.
A percentage of them, two thirds female, join the veggie bandwagon and turn it into
their new religion. Off the top of my head, around 20% go to Uni, around 10%
of those or 2% of the population go veggie.

Now Bob the brickie and Hanny the hairdresser etc, all included in the study too,
generally don’t read philosophy. I once asked the newsagent what most people
buy and he told me it was Autotrader for the guys and New Idea for the ladies.
If a book sells 50’000 copies in Australia it’s a huge best seller.

If this study now shows that Nicky the veggie is smarter then Bob and Hanny,
that really does not prove anything.

I think that PF is right, shock is what all those videos are meant to achieve,
as people follow their agendas and marketing campaigns. The Catholics
do the same with photos of foetus arms and legs after abortions, with the
same aim, to shock. It pushes emotional buttons, that’s why its done.

Hi Yabby, absolutely agree your take on the study, it's just that the results ie "vegetarians are smarter", are often quoted by veg groups in order to recruit. They just tend to leave out the part about the vegetarians who eat meat. That bit tickles me.

There are certain similarities to organised religion within the vegetarian movement, and different factions. I guess somewhere near the top of the hierachy are those that say they live only on air and sunlight(not for long), and down the bottom ova-lacto-pisco-vegetarians. The latter is a mouthful so I don't know why you'd bother, especially as I would consider fish to be meat.

Nicky, I do wonder at why some people feel the need to label themselves vegetarian yet clearly aren't. Are there any guidelines to how long someone has to be meat free to become vegetarian?

I think we need to get things into some prospective.

I don’t want Nicky or Dickie Cup handle Alex etc to think this is an attack on them personally.

The fact remains these people clearly care about the animals and are outraged by the way in which they are treated.

They give up their own time and put all their energy into it.We share their outrage.

Nicky and others- what we are saying is perhaps by working more independently you may achieve your goals much quicker.

Now I know you are going to rush in and say- “pale I have told you before I do not work with anybody. Ok

I hear that but I believe you are influenced by these people and you believe they are the only ones able to help animals.

This Nicky and others simply isn’t the case.
Yes I agree they have done more to highlight Animal cruelty in Australia than anybody.

Yes I support those one hundred percent in that.

However Nicky don’t you see that until we find alternatives to some of these now enormous problems we are only kidding ourselves that we are helping animals.

Why is it that you girls refuse to work or do anything other than what AA or PETA.

Ask yourself this.- Wouldn’t I feel better if I were able to divert Tassi live trade to Carcass?

You would still feel sad but at least know they were slaughtered here and you saved the dreadful long drawn out deaths.

You would know pigs at least lived free range before they were killed and poultry etc.

You girls made it clear you would never consider assisting to do that.

I don’t even mean by working with pale just doing it yourselves.

So you are either AA Peta girls or you have been brain washed against pale.

Ok, Then start your own deals with farmers and Muslims.

Our job is to offer the farmers better alternative.

Give the same price.More if possible.

That will do it Nicky every time. It really is where the Buck stops.

Hi all
I see the usual sweeping generalizations and stereotyping from Yabby, which is to be expected.

PF, if the woman to whom you refer was filming under what I'll describe as "raid" conditions - or even if she was there at the invitation of the farmer/s concerned, just what exactly could she have done? Staged a riot and got arrested (she has been)? Released all the pigs, with the same result? What she was doing was documenting the material for the information of the public, and in doing that, she was enormously successful, I'd suggest. The only person I'm aware of who seems to be able to pull off rescues out of these places is Patty Mark from AL Victoria.

PALE - I am lost. WHAT board? And if not Animals Australia, then who do you suggest IS the peak animal welfare body in the country? The RSPCA is regarded as more of a joke. And I say again, you cannot force people to work with you and force your ideas, however well-intentioned, down their throats. Senator Bartlett must have chosen to work with AA for his own reasons and that is his choice. As for your idea about Tasmania, how do you suggest someone who works full time and more in NSW is going to do that? There must be someone in Tasmania you can contact if that's what you want to do. With regard to the submissions, as I said - no-one was submitting in relation to the submissions of others, they were commenting on the provisions of the proposed legislation - none of your submissions actually did that. In those things you have to stay focussed.

Wirthless is not President of RSPCA Australia; Lynn Bradshaw from WA is. Wirthless remains president of Victoria, I think. WSPA is an international body and I have no idea why they and AA "blacklisted" you, if that's what happened. I'd suggest that there would have to be some reason though, and not to do with vegetarianism (see my earlier posts from their, and PETA's websites).

Cheers
Nicky

Rojo, I have one acquaintance who claims to be a vegetarian, although she eats fish
and a bit of chicken. Then sometimes she’ll also get weak and enjoy a bit of bacon :)
It’s a bit like the Catholics who take the pill etc. People adjust their religions
to suit themselves and their weaknesses and can usually rationalise it all away one
way or the other.

Nicky there is nothing wrong with generalising to make a point. We are all aware that
there will always be exceptions. If I claim that men are taller then women, on
average they are, but yes, exceptions there are. It still makes the point, with which
you are free to argue of course.

So far you really haven’t made a good case for your beliefs. You can’t say as to
whom decided what animals were meant or not meant to be doing, or if that is just
your opinion.

You’d have to admit that starving to death in nature is far more cruel then humane
slaughtering to avoid overpopulation issues. You’d also have to admit that once we
are dead, it really doesent matter to us, what happens to the remains, as eventually
its all recycled anyhow, no matter which species.

So you really don’t have a case to make against humane free range farming, where
animals get to enjoy their lives.

On the nutrition side, the evidence is pretty clear that a Mediterranean diet with
moderate meat consumption, or a Japanese diet with high fish and some meat
consumption, is as good as anything. They are quite different to a high meat
diet, often involving large volumes of processed foods full of hydrogenated fats
etc. ( American diet)

Even on the environmental side, there is hardly a case. Herbivores grazing pasture
do one hell of a lot of good in keeping the grass down. If they didn’t, on the
next lightning strike in summer, the whole lot would go up in massive bushfires,
taking adjoining forests with it.

Perhaps you should try a yummy lamb roast :)

.

"just what exactly could she have done? Staged a riot and got arrested (she has been)? Released all the pigs, with the same result? "

Certainly not this person. Someone who can take photos of suffering animals and give (or sell for all we know) to organisations on the provision that they are only to be used to promote vegetarianism, is someone that does not truely care for animals in my book. She deserves to be arrested for what she does (illegal raids)

Why does she refuse to allow her photos to be used to try and improve conditions for intensively farmed pigs? Because she couldnt give a rats behind about that poor sow she photographed behind those bars - she is just a means to an end (in her eyes)

Her photos are only for vegie sites - she makes that very clear.
I dont know how she sleeps at night - she is no better than the spin doctors at APL.

Hi Nicky


Regardless *whom doesn’t like it RSPCA are in charge. Until everybody works together nothing will change. You all complained about Wirthless. Yes, he left the top job and quietly.
Ever wondered why.-Ah forget it! Hugh said until groups work together nothing will change. .He “insisted” (quote) you can’t talk or reason with these people, because they ‘think they walk on a higher moral ground.

You accuse pale of trying to ‘force` people to work with us reopening plants. That’s untrue... Why would we have to *force anybody who *claims they are *campaigning to replace live with chilled?
You’d think everybody would be tripping over themselves to help. It doesn’t make sense.. Unless of course the peak groups were vegetarians- but that would mean they don’t really support chilled carcass at all. Wouldn’t it?
That leaves 98% of main stream public without representation.
There is a lot I haven’t disclosed.- Threats from AA lawyer simply because we copied something Yabby said. Interesting they didn’t take Yabby on just us`.
What’s the plan Nicky? To keep showing footage and post peta sites.?

You say there must be reason why pale was black listed. Yup there sure is. Would you like me to post it “in writing”? It `won’t` help the Animals.

RSPCA QLD don’t have a problem working with us nor Aboriginal Councils or Muslim Leaders and many others.

Bridgett Bardott fully supports HKM also.

.Interesting that it’s only `your people ` who are anti.
You keep raising this. We respond.

Nicky said
. Senator Bartlett must have chosen to work with AA for his own reasons and that is his choice.
Pale replies.
Umm, I couldn’t agree more.

Senators have a duty to serve `all` of the public Nicky – in `particular` their *local electrade.
. Andrew attended a meeting and was delighted along with RSPCA QLD and Muslim Leaders of Australia.

However pale members felt extremely let down that his web Master said he `personally instructed her to *remove the pale petition after the co joint farmers meat venture was submitted by AFIC HKM PALE RSPCA QLD

I can't imagine why an organisation that consistently presents itself with the degree of professionalism and rationality that PALEIF does, hasn't attracted universal support from other animal rights organisations.

Hi all
Yabby, and Rojo, To me, vegetarianisn is not what you describe - but you are possibly quite right in what you say about religion; people have their own connotations. But consider this - the amount of grain used to feed farm animals so that people can eat them would feed much of the third world. Then there is the "carbon footprint", but you don't want to know about that. I don't think I have condemned humane farming, because I am more of a realist than to imagine the world becoming vegetarian overnight. What I deplore is cruelty.

PALE, I repeat once again, I am aligned with no-one. Clearly there is a philosphical dissonance between PALE and other groups (who incidentally seem to be able to work with Animals Australia). Perhaps to end this once and for all, you should tell your story here. I don't know why Andrew Bartlett chose to do what he did other than it may have been from the perspective of AA being the peak body which represents other groups as well. Senators in fact are not responsible to "electorates" as such, they are elected by State but I don't know that that is relevant to this debate.

The RSPCA is in the position it is by default (not "in charge", as you put it). State governments know that the RSPCA is not going to cause them any embarassment, and effectively condones appalling practices with farm animals, and that's why they have "power to act" under POCTA legislation. And what action they take they usually do very badly (with the possible exception of some of the Queensland inspectors). It's certainly not because they make any meaningful contribution to animal welfare or they are good at what they do (unless it's a cat or a dog). As for Wirthless, and McGauran, the less said about that paid the better, I think. Wirthless set animal welfare back in this country decades.

Cheers
Nicky

Morgan
Well let us explain it as much as as we understand the background ourselves.

You of course would be aware of RSPCA. We work with RSPCA QLD Branch in their efforts to faze out the live trade and relace it with chilled meats only.

In the couple of years or so you may not have seen the Four Corners Story A Blind Eye. RSPCA were accused of turning their backs on animal cruelty regarding the live trade.

This was followed up a few months letter by a five page spread in the Australian newspaper.

There were many alligations coming from another group that they were concerned RSPCA were turning a blind eye.

At first glance you would wonder why these animals had nobody to protect them and their was much anger directed at the RSPCA.

I am informed this fude has being going on for many years before pale came along.

Pale commenced in about 2002 or 2003. We were all told before we started that there would be people who would not like us helping RSPCA QLD especially by reopening abattoirs.

We soon learned that was true.

One of the first things we did as a organisation knowing something of the inta fighting between RSPCA and other groups was contact Peter Singer to seek assistance working together with Muslim Leaders and ourselves.

I am afraid the members became very upset by his repsonse- if you could call it that.( Another time)

I think it is important that the public understad RSPCA have a MOU with State Governments and DPI officers to inspect animals going to the live trade.
This in fact has caused a great deal of mistrust and suspicion and rightfully so.



pale decided to invite Muslim Leaders to become involved in Animal Welfare and ask for their asistance to reopen more Halal Plants Here.
This has met with strong opposition from some veggie groups groups.

We have stuck by RSPCA walts and all because we believe it is the only way to help animals by making them stronger.

That also upset some people.
Goodnight

And finally to PF
PF, to the very best of my knowledge (unless you know differently) this woman is not paid for the work she does, and she certainly does not sell it. I think her expenses may be covered.

On the occasions complaints have been made on the basis of her work, nothing has happened, because the RSPCA sits on its hands. It deliberately gives these places (battery farms too) notice of an inspection, by which time they have cleaned up their act. The RSPCA claims then that it cannot use her material because it was "illegally obtained". You are also a little self-contradictory in deploring the conditions in which the animals she films are living, and saying that she should be more active in doing something about it, but suggesting she should be arrested for getting the evidence of it out there. She is worlds apart from APL and the paranoid delusions expressed on their website.

You might be interested to read some speeches by Mark Parnall (South Australian Greens) who has a lot going on there about just this issue. The last time I looked at Animals Australia's savebabe website, it was promoting getting pigs out of sow stalls and farrowing crates, and the disgraceful "consultation process" undertaken for the review of the "Model Code of Practice" - not vegetarianism. Vegetarianism may be - in fact most likely is - encouraged as a goal by animal advocacy groups, but I don't see any attempts at brainwashing an innocent, uninformed public. The only farmers who should feel threatened by them are those with something to hide, because like me, it is the cruelty they are fighting against.

I think this woman feels that she is making the best contribution she can, and she does it very well indeed.

Cheers
Nicky

Good evening folks
I've been away for a bit so have just caught up with this one. Nice to see the same faces contributing. I remember the ABC program "A Blind Eye" - it covered the RSPCA's relationship with Pace Farms (the largest battery hen operator in NSW which has some hens in barns), its relationship with pig farmers in South Australia and alleged corruption of the election process to the state council there, and also its involvement with live exporters in Western Australia. It was rumoured in Western Australia that two members of the state council there were farmers who sent animals on live exports (one of whom was reported to have a conviction for animal cruelty), against RSPCA national policy and that the president and CEO allegedly neglected to properly inform the state council about a complaint that was being laid by Animals Australia. I think I've got that right. If I remember rightly the national president, Hugh Wirth, basically said that there was nothing he could do to bring state branches into line.

I have noticed that this thread has been "converted" to issues relating to "Animal Welfare" and the increasing and very competitive "trumpeting" of individual achievements and apparent enmity between competing groups and individuals themselves!

I have seen criticism for and against the RSPCA and would like to make the following observations:
In my opinion the RSPCA loves to get involved in media publicised issues that will bring in extra gifts and donations to boost their organisations funds, eg: a recent case in Qld where thay raided a property and confiscated approximately 80 dogs (in very poor condition!).....splashed all over the local TV Channels for the next couple of days!

Some time ago my wife mentioned to the local Policeman (a new and potential achiever) about the woeful conditions affecting a neighbours horses and the fact that due to exceptionally poor condition the mares were simply dying whilst trying to foal! (This had been going on for some years and was gradually getting worse!)
She mentioned that she had heard from local people that over the years numerous complaints had been made to the RSPCA, with little response, so she wondered what could be done about it?
The Policeman rang the closest RSPCA inspector and asked him to come out and look at the situation. They then both drove around the offending property (which was a couple of thousand acres) and took note of the conditions of the animals, then the RSPCA Inspector asked us if WE could get some feed to entice some of the horses into the stockyards so that he could take some photos. This we declined as we were battling to feed our own stock and besides we thought that this was a responsibility that should have been carried out by the RSPCA (if they were that interested!)
End result: no action taken by RSPCA, the Policeman allegedly severely reprimanded by his superior and transferred to another area!
Score: Cruel Bastards....10! RSPCA......Nil!

We can’t dismiss farmers... We all must work united.

Having pale black listed because some don’t want to see animals killed is counter productive to animals.

IMOP its time for new leadership. Mark Pearson perhaps, Dawn, Trish Brown, Lyn or others capable. Include some good farmers “as a matter of urgency.”

There’s a twenty year record of inta fighting. Hugh Wirth adressed that as major problem.

Pale shares those concerns. Speaking of RSPCA -

Interested parties should look at the actual `structure` of RSPCA National Office.

A. Who are these people answerable to if anybody?

B If Federal Government and State Government funds are `paid to National RSPCA head office for `employment of CEOs or Inspectors can they `truly` say RSPCA are not Government funded?

C. Given the farming industry runs into billions, does that then, put Government in a position of conflict of interest, or even RSPCA National itself?

D How could we improve...

Nicky pale “supports” AA. We expect likewise.

QLD is blessed with a forward thinking RSPCACEO but even he can’t act outside the law.

BTW your information is incorrect. Pale have been informed that AA “instructed” others not to speak with or work with or have any contact with pale.

AA is the peak Animal Welfare Umbrella according to them so naturally people listen.


Now there can only be a few reasons for that I would suggest=

1 We work with RSPCA QLD

2 Our project HKM to reopen abattoirs to phase out the live trade.

3 Both combined

4 fear of loosing control

Moving on -

Why didn’t AA, PETA, WSPA, Voiceless accept invitations to work with paleRSPCA QLD under our MOU meet Muslim Leaders - supporting Free range Farms and reopening abattoirs.

If they `are` campaigning to replace live with carcass this would be a shot in the arm for that champagne surely.

Why don’t you get Ingrid to come on OLO or Glensye to debate these them?
Perhaps their lawyers might like to debate it with us.

FYI RSPCA and RSPCA QLD especially have some fantastic people who are very dedicated

Nicky, the ideology behind your vegetarianism, I can only judge by what you
have written so far, which is what I do.

Clearly its you doing the generalising, lumping all livestock farming into one pot.

I beg to differ, there is a huge difference between factory farming and say grazing,
But all the animal libber websites that I have checked out throw it into that same
pot, the claim is that “meat it costs the earth” They follow your ideology, of
what animals are meant or not meant to be doing. Its their religion or philosophy
and they preach it.

One species eating another, is as natural as nature herself and goes back as
far as you’d like to go. Its part of Darwinian evolution theory and part of our
genetic heritage.

Eating meat is also quite sustainable, the real problem is the exploding human
population in the last 100 years, based on cheap oil. Factory farming has come
about due to that exploding human population and their demand for food.
Perhaps you should start addressing the problem, rather then blame those
species doing nothing that isn’t natural, like eating grass for a living.

I remind you that the pastures on which livestock are grazing, are all absorbing
CO2 and releasing oxygen, all very healthy for the planet. Now you are telling
me that this natural event is in fact evil! Think again.

As to grain, there is in fact no shortage. US and EU Govts have spent billions
a year subsiding and limiting production, as global markets have been swamped
with grain for decades. The third world is free to buy that grain, farmers can’t
grow it for free. Or taxpayers like you could buy it and send it to the third world.

Finally the West is however starting to realise, that the more boatloads of food that
they send to the third world, the more babies are popped out, in an ever growing
spiral of humans. 80 million a year are added to the planet in the third world,
not the first world. That’s your real problem.

Yabby, I absolutely agree with you about the population explosion - I think than rather than sending massive amounts in aid in the form of money and food, the investment should be in birth control programs. I can't see the relationship between the population explosion and cheap oil, I'm afraid. Nor do I think I "lump" all livestock producers into the one level of cruelty - I despise intensive farmers infinitely more than I do free range ones.

PALE, I don't think any animal welfare advocacy organization would want to have anyone who has a commercial interest (i.e. farmers, vivisectionists) in animals in any position to do with ethics/animal welfare. By their very nature (see Penny's posting about "A Blind Eye") there is a profit motive by which they are influenced. That is the problem with any number of ethics committees. And I certainly would not regard anything said by Hugh Wirthless to be relevant to any debate. The man is an idiot, and has contributed to more of the shame than that to which the RSPCA already exposes itself.

If you want to go about getting the people you mention to launch some sort of coup within Animals Australia (are they members?), then why don't you? It sounds to me like your complaint is more about Glenys Oogjes than Animals Australia itself though. You still haven't clarified exactly what it is they object to about PALE - unless it sees that with the HKM association a profit motive involved (i.e. - PALE will get money from HKM for all this slaughtering, and that would definitely be an ethical issue for them). You say you support AA and "expect the same" - clearly you don't support AA, from what you say on these threads, you are highly critical of all they stand for. And conversely, clearly they do not support you, according to your posts.

AA will continue to be the real driving force behind animal welfare as long as the RSPCA remains as corrupt as it is (with the possible exception of some of your Queensland people).

Cheers
Nicky

*I despise intensive
farmers infinitely more than I do free range ones.*

Nicky, I cannot but be touched by the fact that you despise me less then some
other farmers. I will sleep much better now :)

As to your ideology and that of the so called animal welfare groups whose websites
I have checked out, it seems to me that just about all of you are driven by the
ideology of animal liberation, as distinct from animal welfare. There is
a big difference.

That is exactly why your views in society are seen as extremist. Yet a whole
bunch of you have pets, who have far less freedom to live natural lives then
my farm animals do. I see a huge contradiction there. I also see a problem
with animal liberation organisations being able to be somehow objective
about what farmers do, given that they despise what farmers do in the first
place.

I see that on November 10th you had your national day of protest against
the live trade. How many people turned up as a matter of interest?

As to oil and food, I thought that would be pretty obvious. All that cheap
oil meant mass mechanisation of agriculture, which led to mountains of
cheap food around the globe, often given away to the third world to get
rid of it, by the US and EU. They also gave them mountains of vaccines
etc, but forgot the family planning bit, or rather ignored it due to religious
interference by the Catholic Church and others.

Now that oil is no longer cheap, costs of growing it are skyrocketing
and farmers aren’t going to grow it at a loss for too long. Factory farming
is based on cheap oil etc, where as natural farming such as grazing, is
not. As the price of oil rises, factory farming will become less and less
sustainable compared to natural farming.

Er Nicky this site is familer-

Member Societies // Animals Australia
Animal Activism QLD. PO Box 703 Stones Corner QLD 4120 Contact: Debra Morris Web: http://www.animalactivism.org Email:. +. Animal Liberation QLD. PO Box 463
www.animalsaustralia.org/about/member_societies.php - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

RSPCA QLD CEO explained patiently what they can and can’t use as evidence in court.

RSPCA `can not` use evidence gained illegally- i.e. break and enter tress pass.

She had other ideas. Her partners “studying law” and knew better than RSPCA Lawyers. Assitance was offered.

Three occasions she failed to show. Not even a courtesy call.

A few weeks after =
http://www.animalactivism.org/campaigns/rspca-cruelty/

Reads as follows>

RSPCA Endorses Cruelty
A year long investigation into battery egg farms by animal activists has exposed routine cruelty in farms owned by organizations accredited by the RSPCA. Bla bla.
(As Hugh Wirth said= you can’t reason with these people.)

Cuphandle Said
I have seen criticism for and against the RSPCA and would like to make the following observations:
In my opinion the RSPCA loves to get involved in media publicized issues that will bring in extra gifts and donations to boost their organizations funds, eg: a recent case in Qld where they raided a property and confiscated approximately 80 dogs (in very poor condition!).....splashed all over the local TV Channels for the next couple of days!

Pale replies

Enough is enough.

How nasty and how typical. I would have thought most Animal Lovers would have been delighted that Mark took that on right in our worst season. BTW it wasn’t 80 dogs it was 100.

Would you have preferred him to do leave them there! How dare you criticize Mark. I will remind you that RSPCA have to provide funds for these animals out of their own budget.

Every NFP organization needs all the help they can get especially from media.

Unlike Animals Australia they are "hands on" attending thousands of call outs and even more phone calls.

RSPCA QLD are leading the way in Animal Welfare.
http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:fyFoofwRtZ4J:www.rspcaqld.org.au/aboutus/RSPCA-Qld-Annual-Report-06-07.pdf+rspca+qld+attend+thousands+of+complaints&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=a

Yabby, I cannot tell you how pleased to have touched that heart of yours, and that you will sleep better for the benefit of my opinion. There is obviously a world of difference between "animal welfare" and "animal liberation". I prefer the term "animal advocate" as you may have noticed. There doesn't seem to be to be anything especially extreme about Animals Australia's website, and they do not appear to be trying to put all farmers out of business. They are firm about live exports and intensive farming and I fully support that. They make no comment that I can find about ruining farmers' livelihoods.

The protest on November 10 that I went to had probably 140 or so people around. Because it was at a central location, there were large numbers of tourists from around Australia (and overseas) there. I got 120 signatures on the petition, by myself, in the first hour, and about 15 of us were doing that so I imagine the others would have done equally well if not better.

I have the ongoing debate with myself about pets too, and it bothers me that I am inconsistent on this, but I am not perfect and I console myself with the reflection that one of my dogs would have been drowned had she not come home with me and the other had already been abandoned at the RSPCA. As I've said before, I live with concerns about the their breeds (border collie/kelpie/cattle dog)and what their preferred lifestyle might have been. But as far as I can tell they are happy and healthy. And humans have well and truly domesticated the dog to the extent that it would no longer survive in the wild. My hens are "spent" hens from a battery farm who are living the remainder of their lives in peace.

Believe it or not, I do not force a vegetarian agenda on anyone, including friends, colleagues and family. I think that that would alientate them from my beliefs, and eventually, as they become more aware they will make their own choices.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky, frankly your milder version of despising me, is a huge improvement on
Dickie, whose anger and hatred dribbled off the OLO pages, day after day.
I’d have to suggest a cup of tea and a lie down, to calm her down a bit :)

*There is obviously a world of difference between "animal
welfare" and "animal liberation". I prefer the term "animal advocate"*

There certainly is, but it dodges the question of which camp you are in.
Perhaps that was your intention in the first place.

Ok, so the November 10 national protest seems to have been a dud.
20 million people in Australia and maybe 1000 turned up across
the country?

*humans have well and truly domesticated the dog to the extent that it would no longer survive in
the wild*

Do not kid yourself, your dogs would thrive without you. Their wolf ancestry
is closer then you think, as I keep finding out when down dogs escape and land
up out here. They are lovely creatures, but they still know how to hunt, for fun
or for food. Many a townie has problems accepting that their moggie can easily
turn into a killer of livestock, its in their genes.

I looked at the AA website some months ago and recall seeing a similar banner
to your claims, ie about what animals are “meant” to be on earth for. That
is about ideology, not welfare. Mind you, I tried to find that banner today
and could not. Perhaps it has been removed. I have yet to be convinced that
the AA people are driven by purely welfare concerns and that ideology does
not come into it.

Singer seems to be a bit more thoughtful about all this. Patrick Francis reviewed
his last book and invited him to his farm to have a look. Singer clearly doesn’t
know much about Australian livestock production or about how ruminants are
focussed on what those billions of rumen bacteria are telling them, to be content
with the world.

At least he concedes that its ethical to eat livestock that have had happy-lives.

Ladies

Has it ever occurred to you that the system is working `rather well` “for the Government” because you all blame the RSPCA for not doing their job.
In the last few months I have posted a copy of the Senate Enquiry into Abattoirs and other hints.
I thought if we got off the old argument libbers peta verses pale RSPCA attitudes we might be able to achieve results regardless.

In case you haven’t noticed we are on the side of the animals too.
I understand your feelings towards RSPCA regarding intensive farms and live exports.

I outlined some questions and points of interest be answered regarding RSPCA Structure. Here they are again.

Interested parties should look at the actual `structure` of RSPCA National Office.

A. Who are these people answerable to if anybody?

B If Federal Government and State Government funds are `paid to National RSPCA head office for `employment of CEOs or Inspectors can they `truly` say RSPCA are not Government funded?

C. Given the farming industry runs into billions, does that then, put Government in a position of conflict of interest, or even RSPCA National itself?

D How could we improve...

IMOP the structure of RSPCA from the beginning was “set up in a way to protect those who are meant to uphold the laws.”= The Governments

It takes all the reasonability off of them. If there is a media beef up about Animal cruelty is it intensive farms or live exports they enjoy being distant from it allowing RSPCA to take the heat.

My point is if it is the case RSPCA were established or eventually were used as a double edge sword by Governments isn’t it possible people are playing right into their hands.

Why don’t you look at the special ministers roles (Closely)

There are some very dedicated people working within RSPCA.

I am just wondering if you don’t think Animals might be served by supporting RSPCA and giving them the support the really need to stand up to Government.

Attack the Government direct and don’t give them the RSPCA to hide behind anymore.

Dear Yabby, you don't know my dogs!

PALE, I'm familiar with the work of AAQ, and also with that particular investigation. The problem is that the RSPCA gives these operations advance warning of an inspection, giving them plenty of time to "clean up their act" - so when the inspectors arrive, there are "no animal welfare breaches". THAT is why everyone gets so frustrated with them. It goes back to the age-old dichotomy of the legislation and the Codes of Practice. Compliance with these pitiful documents can form the basis of a defence against cruelty charges and noncompliance can form the basis of a prosecution.

The problem with getting Codes of Practice incorporated into legislation or regulation is if the CoP is improved, then you have to wait for a review of the legislation to reflect that. Then you have the judiciary, and I think it's fair to say that in every jurisdiction, the penalties handed down are pitiful. Remember the nutter charged with bestiality and mutilating heaps of rabbits in Sydney? The drugs made him do it - and it was determined that he had a mental illness, when in fact using methamphetamine is a lifestyle choice not a mental illness at all.

But the RSPCA (and I have to say - whose budget should rescuing those dogs have come from? That's why people and governments throw money at them and why they are all sitting on absolute fortunes) has chosen to align itself with battery egg producers, and turn a blind eye to the plight of pigs and live export animals. So they DON'T go to these places and catch them in the act, they avoid that, possibly deliberately. I'm the first to agree that Queensland RSPCA shows the rest of the losers how it should be done though.

Yabby - ideologies and practical welfare measures clearly are worlds apart. Many of us are realistic enough to know that the world is not going to become vegetarian overnight. Abject cruelty is a different matter though, as Animals Australia points out.

Cheers
Nicky

*you don't know my dogs!*

Nicky, you are not the first motherly type, to claim the innocence of her babies.
Oxytocin seems to have that effect.

Unless your dogs are very old, I’d wager quite a large sum of money on the fact
that if they spent a few minutes with my dogs, learning about the joys of chasing
rabbits, you’d be shocked at your babies ability to scrunch them up for joy or
food. They could easily survive without you, but motherly types sometimes have
trouble with that, as they enjoy being needed.

*Many of us are realistic
enough to know that the world is not going to become vegetarian overnight.*

Many of you are however not realistic enough to accept that this may never
happen! Only in your dreams maybe.

The question then arises, about the definitions of a fanatic. I have known
tax inspectors, worksafe inspectors, etc, who think that the whole world
should revolve around their particular point of interest. As if we should not
lead balanced lives and have lots of things on our plates. All that is forgotten
by fanatics.

The RSPCA might have its faults, but they get thousands of calls a year, deal
with thousands of cases and certainly do a lot for animal welfare. The public
certainly accepts their role as looking after animal welfare, wether you like it or
not.

Clearly that is not good enough for you, as the Queen Mary it seems, is not
good enough to transport live sheep either. Now tell me why I should not
think of you as a fanatic on this issue?

Nicky said

THAT is why everyone gets so frustrated with them.

pale replies- Nicky

Pick a number between one but not more than ten.

Then report "those amount of animals "only" to RSPCA.

Most Branches have a MOU with State Government DPI Department of Primary industry. This is to carry out Inspections on poulty farms, pork, pluss handle cruelty complaints for transport of
numbers "over" ten animals.9That is more than ten animals)

It is in fact the Government Dept of DPI that carry out inspections as a rule and not RSPCA.
Its the same with Live Export transport animals or for that matter any stock.
So if you really want to get results and get up Hughs nose =

Next time you see a truck with injuries report `two or `three animals being mistreated but dont mention the rest.

Which brings me back to this=

B If Federal Government and State Government funds are `paid to National RSPCA head office for `employment of CEOs or Inspectors can they `truly` say RSPCA are not Government funded?

So know knowing RSPCA does not carry out inspections under their MOUs with DPI it is clear that ALL complaints must go direct to State Government department of DPI if THEIR inspectors are not carrying out their duties

Yabby, if I am a fanatic, I'm certainly not alone. Here's a good article for you from the New York Times:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/27/weekinreview/27bittman.html?ex=1202101200&en=ae87f466b2f0f394&ei=5070&emc=eta1

And an extract:

"...Growing meat (it’s hard to use the word “raising” when applied to animals in factory farms) uses so many resources that it’s a challenge to enumerate them all. But consider: an estimated 30 percent of the earth’s ice-free land is directly or indirectly involved in livestock production, according to the United Nation’s Food and Agriculture Organization, which also estimates that livestock production generates nearly a fifth of the world’s greenhouse gases — more than transportation.

To put the energy-using demand of meat production into easy-to-understand terms, Gidon Eshel, a geophysicist at the Bard Center, and Pamela A. Martin, an assistant professor of geophysics at the University of Chicago, calculated that if Americans were to reduce meat consumption by just 20 percent it would be as if we all switched from a standard sedan — a Camry, say — to the ultra-efficient Prius. Similarly, a study last year by the National Institute of Livestock and Grassland Science in Japan estimated that 2.2 pounds of beef is responsible for the equivalent amount of carbon dioxide emitted by the average European car every 155 miles, and burns enough energy to light a 100-watt bulb for nearly 20 days...."

The RSPCA basically pays lip service to animal welfare. They're okay at cats and dogs, but try and get them involved in farm animals and see the level of activity they'll respond with. People throw money at them because their propaganda machine is more effective than they are.

I've actually seen my dogs chase rabbits (two wild ones have taken up residence here) but they are far too silly to catch them. They like to cuddle the chooks though. My child substitutes? Maybe.

Cheers
Nicky

PALE, of course the RSPCA has a conflict of interest; that has been the case since if started receiving money from the government. And I've actually found the police more helpful than the DPI or the RSPCA (neither of whom bothers to respond) with complaints I have made about overloaded trucks leaving nearby saleyards, and also conditions at the saleyard. When I cornered the RSPCA they were "too busy" to investigate.

I should add that I have also been harassed by the saleyard operators and some of the transporters whom I have reported for having sheep on top of one another (so some fall off as they corner, I've seen it happen).

As I said - dogs and cats hold more appeal, it seems. You can get a better media story out of them. Battery farms, pig farms - forget it.

The point I was making earlier is that the difference between the people whom you denounce as "libbers" are the ones who push the boundaries by getting evidence out there, in contrast to the RSPCA, which doesn't want to do any more than the status quo. If it wants to be seen as any sort of leader, it should be constantly testing the legislation with whatever evidence it can get instead of sitting on its hands and saying "we can't...". In the end, it's the only way to bring about change because the status quo will get so fed up it will ultimately have to listen. And forget Wirthless - he is only the Victorian president, nothing more, and has absolutely no credibility with anyone. Hot air and no substance.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky said

My child substitutes? Maybe.
pale replies
I am just wondering why everybody especially males try to connect kids with animals.
I cant see the slightest connection.

Nicky said

The RSPCA basically pays lip service to animal welfare.

pale replies

There are only 82 inspectors across the whole of Australia.

RSPCA QLD are open 24 hours a day 7 days a week for intake.

All the branches are busy- with thousands of complaints often leading to charges and court cases.

At the risk of getting you off side may I suggest you have been mislead for years by thinking RSPCA are incharge of Inspections for farm animals as a rule.

Again I will tell you that issues such as transport of ( more than ten Animals)or mistreatment in poulrty etc of ( more than ten Animals) is passed over to DPI inspectors under their MOU agreement with State Government DPI.

RSPCA can not enforce new laws and codes of practices just because they would like to.

Anybody who is telling you RSPCA are happy with the size of pig sows -or sows at all or caged poultry or live exports is misinforming you.

DPI State Governments and in some cases Federal Government acts cross over into this area as I have said before.

The truth is Nicky RSPCA require strong membership and the public to lay the blame at the feet of those reasonsible.=Which is not them but the authorities who set the standards.

By attacking RSPCA over farm animals people are weakening animal welfare for all animals.

Surely you must now ask yourself if you are fair =Then why do AA attack RSPCA if they know about the DPI MOUs.?

Have I perhaps been mislead or misinformed. Is this about a fight for power or perhaps funding.


RSPCA have huge over heads Nicky and they do spend heaps on vets housing finding newhomes inspections court and a zillion other things.

Of course some branches are better than others like everything else.

Animals would have nothing if RSPCA were to loose position in favour of others.

Nicky
Dont you see that they have no powers and nowhere near enough staff.
Do you not think it would have ben better for the peak group AA to have instructed all their members to work with RSPCA and not against them.

Dont kid yourself that nobody in RSPCA gives a dam about Animals.

Many of their staff are paid two days but work another two or three.
When we were ready to take the whole of the Government departments to court pluss the industry= which is a huge case to court we had everything underway. =To force this Government to update Animal Welfare Lawsin Australia.


pale had the just retired X Crimes commissioner and some heavy councils with a team of fourteen of he best lawyers to assist with one council flying in from overseas.

We were ready to roll. I didnt want to rely on just asking Hugh Wirth alone to brief the council with background from each state so we asked AA.

All She had to do was supply the council with background and dates from diffent states which we did not have enough of.

We wrote and invited her and another to the coast all expenses paid to meet with council and discuss assisting.

We received a reply saying she never came to QLD and couldnt get away.

Three weeks later she came to Brisbane to a meeting.
We were the only ones in animal welfare not invited.

History now and hes a judge so cant do it and the other top bloke is retired.
So you tell me what the problem was with a district court case to bring about changes to the Animal Welfare laws that are a hundred years old that costs them nothing?

The diference is= RSPCA CEO was happy to open a trust account for the public to donate towards costs and the others were happy to take what they could because they really were doing it for the animals.

So who dipped out of helping the Animals Nicky Us or her?

IMO there is only one animal welfare group that actually does something to help all animals and that is the Humane Society.

No talk of vegeterianism, no conditions on wether or not they will help animals based on wether they are for human consumption. They are not governed by a need for media attention, they just get on with things behind the scenes.

The RSPCA is so easily manipulated by industry and is a puppet for the government.

PALE - no offense meant, I am talking about the big names here. That said, I am aware that you guys have been quietly helping a favourite cause of mine - thanks. I see the story made the Land this week.

PF
The Land. Bugger I didnt know.Thats great. Was it the Land NSW or?

Yes The Humane Society NSW is fantasic I agree.

As Yabby will tell you I am a dreamer. I will disclose one of my greatest dreams I would like to achieve before I leave this earth.

Thats is to have the Humane Society NSW in charge of Animal Welfare with hand picked staff from RSPCA and some of the others under their umbrella along with good farmers.(mind you I never asked them)

To find a company to compete with elders and awb and work through the UN with a programe which would enable to have good farmers to teach proper free range farming.

I know you said you thought that would be a nightmere and I am listening.?

With world shortage of food these people like Pace ALP just to mention a few can not expect everybody to sit back.

There are people with vast amounts of funds happy to move in and cash in on the adverse efects of all the publicity some of these intensive farmers have created world wide.

People overseas are more aware of diseases that are caused by intensive farms.

I suspect that some see it as the best darn brand for advertsing their new free range products.

The problem is of course doing this on such a large scale they would require farmers prepaired to train sea change people and migrants who would eventually possible work under some sort of franchise - possible so we could keep control of standards.

Clearly the Governments wont support it because they are in bed with the cruel indusrty.

So it really does come back to- A few good men with good will and more importantly some good farmers interested to teach and educate or perhaps to extend their own label.

Contact with members of all animal groups too ask them if they would like to participate assisting to find farms and property suitable.
( Thats the tough one)
Is the favour still happening? Let us know so we can ask again if required.

Nicky, nobody claimed you were alone in being a fanatic, there are quite a lot out
there. But we have separate issues here. Animal liberation as an ideology, animal
welfare-which society on the whole supports, then environmental issues due to
factory farming.

I read your URL written by Mark Bittman, who writes cookery books. He is writing
one on vegetarian cooking this time, so its not surprising that he is no doubt looking for more customers for his books!

I see no separation in the article between natural farming, ie grazing, and intensive
factory farming, which is due to consumer demand for marbled meat in say the
beef industry. The environmental outcomes are also quite different, one is sustainable,
the other is much like many human activities, dependant on cheap oil.

*30 percent of the earth's ice-free land is directly or indirectly involved in livestock
production*

Umm, so what? Herbivores eating grasslands and predators eating herbivores
is as natural as you can get. You could leave the dead herbivores for the ants,
or all the land could burn with high heat intensity as the other option.
As conservationists are finally learning, too much fuel load is asking for trouble,
as when fire hits eventually, the damage is untold worse.

Lots of soils are simply not suitable for constant cropping or cropping at all.

As to feedlotting in Australia, off the top of my head there are something
like 28 million cattle in Australia, half a million of them in feedlots, with most
of the meat going to Japan and Korea,as that’s what they want and pay for.

That’s maybe 2% of the herd, the other 98% is free range. With sheep its
not far off being the whole herd. Free range beef and lamb is our main activity,
unlike some overseas countries.

In WA the RSPCA certainly does prosecute farmers, plus AFAIK the Govt hired
some further livestock inspectors, so its not as bad as you make out.

Your dogs would soon learn to hunt, if they were hungry, its in their genes.

Yabby said

In WA the RSPCA certainly does prosecute farmers, plus AFAIK the Govt hired
some further livestock inspectors, so it’s not as bad as you make out.

Pale replies

You mean the DPI put on another six people don’t you? And AQIS
Please explain to what advantage you see this as being to the Animals
Also what training you think these people have if any in particular and what Have they been mainly directed to BOL Be on the Look Out For

Yabbs s said=
Your dogs would soon learn to hunt, if they were hungry, it’s in their genes.
Unless your dogs are very old, I’d wager quite a large sum of money on the fact
that if they spent a few minutes with my dogs, learning about the joys of chasing
rabbits, you’d be shocked at your babies’ ability to scrunch them up for joy or
food.
Pale relies.
Err; Yabbs are you not shooting yourself in the foot and your argument down the drain.
I mean I know you love to torment but hey where is this ` new age ` caring farmer. You know that farmer that has been the selling the official position of compassion and the super softies bending over backwards to protect all animals from unnecessary cruelty and re educate those cruel Arabs.

Spreading throughout ME our soft hearted Aussie live exporters compassion. Umm.

BTW I don’t know any farmers who allow let alone encourage their dogs to pull down any animals.
Mind you for all I know this might be some new sport exclusive to live animal exporters.:)

I have knocked around with Bushy and Aboriginals and Ringers but nobody allowed their dogs to do that.
It just says something about the man himself.
No it’s not a real Bushmen’s way. My Dad would never have let his dogs tear a rabbit apart. Most farmers wouldn’t either. Once started they can move onto larger animals like Calves lambs and neighbors stock or even their pets.
You will be pleased to know however I do agree with you about something
Genes:)

1,055,000 Cattle, 3,000,000 sheep, 85,000 goats, 862,000 pigs.
They are the slaughter figures just for NSW this year. It is going to take a hell of a lot of fanaticism to stop that.

Nicky, I agree that we should consume a lot less meat, not because I believe the world should be vegetarian though. Factory farming has created such an imbalance and the cost to the environment and human health is immense.

How much should we eat? If we were forced to go back to basics and hunt our food as nature intended us to, how often would that be? One meal a day instead of the 3 many comsume now? A couple of times a week maybe?

Man has become so lazy and completely out of touch with how his food is produced resulting in a lack of respect or appreciation of the food on his table. He is also blind to the risks that 'produced' food could present to him.

Vegetarianism is not the answer, the end of intensive farming is.

"Whenever we try to rearrange natural systems along the lines of a machine or a factory, whether by raising too many pigs in one place or too many almond trees, whatever we may gain in industrial efficiency, we sacrifice in biological resilience." Michael Pollan.

PF, you are so right. Yabby - some soils are too de-graded for cropping (or words to that effect - that would be partly as a result of grazing "exotic" hooved animals (sheep and cattle). Feedlots are a total abomination not much better than intensive pigand chicken farming. The ones I have seen had a sea of sick looking cattle who literally could not move. I don't even want to think about the effluent run-off.

PALE - as I understand it, Queensland is the only state where the DPI assumes control of the "welfare" of farm animals, which means of course that nothing would be done.

The six general inspectors appointed in WA were hand-picked, I'm told - at least one is a former RSPCA inspector who despaired of the RSPCA.

I hear that Bernie Murphy, the President of RSPCA NSW has resigned citing ill-health. In SA, the President is a vivisectionist who experiments on animals for APL and chicken farming operations.

In Tasmania, the RSPCA has become so corrupt that the President quit over the less than honest actions of the CEO, along with two very long-standing board members. I understand that it received a huge donation, which was withdrawn after some flexibility with the truth on the part of the CEO, and the money was given to another group down there.

Victoria? Well, Wirthless is the president, so enough said.

There is a website called RSPCA Watchdog (or something similar).

PF - if your project is the labelling issue, I hope it has gone brilliantly for you (I couldn't find anythinf in the online version of The Land).

Yabby, I wouldn't a) let my dogs ever go that hungry and b) let them even get close to another animal they could kill. Neither should you, if that's what happens. Do you enjoy watching it? I agree with PALE on this one. Only a live exporter would think that that's fun.

Cheers
Nicky

Gawd, we have a bunch of old grandmas on this thread :)

Now let me see, rabbits are around the place, even around the
sheds etc. Eagles fly overhead and divebomb em, sink their
claws in and I guess hack em to death with their beaks, although
not around the house etc. Foxes wander around and as long as
they can outrun the rabbits, or suprise them near any warrens,
they will scrunch them to death. If these same rabbits come around
the house and sheds, well of course the dogs will chase them
and do exactly what foxes do! Except the dogs usually don't eat them,
just bring them on the verandah and leave them there for all to
see.

Has it never occurred to you girls that eagles, foxes and dogs
are all part of nature? Ok Gertrude, I shall instruct the dogs
to use a stun gun from now on :)

As to soils Nicky, we have arid areas and very clapped out old
soils, some of earths oldest soils in WA. Dust etc is more a
question of stocking rate. If people don't overstock, then its
not a problem.

Nicky said

Feedlots are a total abomination

pale replies
please post your opinion what you think we should be doing to change these conditions for animals ?

There is a website called RSPCA Watchdog (or something similar).
pale relies= Here =
http://www.rspcawatchdog.org/home.htm

RSPCA support barn because its better than caged.RSPCA have no laws or powers
http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/campaigns/batteryhens/
http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/campaigns/batteryhens/humanealternatives.htm

Re the horses
real problem lack of laws- Unless its down they cant step in- other than demand a vet and water and food provided.

Nicky said
PF, you are so right.

pale comments

IS THAT IT?```````````

You are so close to the answer Nicky.
You say your not a AA AL PETA person and I dont mean to be rude but honestly I think you are.

No I dont mean you work there or anything like that I just mean your conditioned by the way you think and respond and do and write.

Tell me Nicky dont you get really upset when you see the chooks and pigs in intensive farms and the horses lying there= I do

Hasnt it occured to you that at least with supporting more free range farmers to enable them to expand it is helping the animals.

How can you people just sit there refusing to help and stopping us every possible step of the way Nicky.

It doesnt matter to me if you are or are not a member your tarred with the same brush.

You have never contacted us but you fully aware we require people in each state to make opening more free range farms.

Thats of course your choice. As you said to me a while back= I am not like you I dont have my foot in both camps.

No Nicky your not like us. We would have our feet face and heart in all camps and work with the devil himself to "practically" help animals.
(In fact I am sure I have.}

Yet you come on here and bag people like RSPCA and pale in many cases when we are hands on doing our best.

Yabby
Gawd, best be careful Yabbs. Sounds like you’d never know what’s lurking around ah. Yo, any jobs going :) = Cool pre stun idea but wouldn’t do it for Halal:)

Time has come. Thanks, Yabby~sincerely~ for all your time and insults and humor over the past however long.
Its one thing to try and fail , its something else if you’re blocked at each corner.


There will be keen eyes watching for possibilities to sue. That’s ok Sue if you wish somebody has to stand up and say it. =

This whole Animal Welfare issue involving many problems has now become major political problem. It would be only fair to say that Animals Australia have done a great deal of work. Yes that would be a fair comment.
But still where on earth are we going with it. They say they are fighting for justice. Justice or fairness is the last thing they have delivered if we are to include people.

It has been one of the most difficult descions of my life and other animal lovers around me to decide what to do about Animals Australia and their extraordinary attitude towards fellow animal lovers. Sure I know pale will be hated – but we are already .

However have come to this conclusion that we must speak out and at least try to turn this around in 2008 for the animals and all those fantastic people who work so quitlety from their own homes or call it a day.

N“obody has the right to be the peak head of anything if fanataticism or personal interests or preferences denies the rest of the public to be treated fairly.

If you can’t treat people fairly and with respect then you won’t help animals.To us this is about the animals and only the animals who deserve better.

After years of trying to work with Animals Australia and years of the obtuse attitude towards us we finally asked the enemy number one if you like the Federal Government to show some sort of leadership to make it a fair for everybody.

TBC

PALE - I have said before that I do not agree that your way is the way, and also that I am not prepared to involve myself in any slaughtering operations. That is not negotiable, because I do not believe that your strategy will make any difference since these people already import such massive volumes of frozen meat.

I do not need to be a member of any organization to recognize that by encouraging growth with farmers you are encouraging more breeding for slaughter, and that slaughter is brutal and I want no part of it.

You said on the other thread that you had operating (and/or were about to):

"Five in Melbourne, three new arrangements in QLD for exports two soon in NSW". Under what name do they operate?

Are these animals stunned prior to slaughter?

As for the RSPCA, as I have also said before, the reason why other groups think they are as useless as the proverbial is that they do not push for changes in legislation that would ban intensive farming. Nor do they police intensive farms (other than Queensland's arrangements) because there is usually a conflict of interest with the industry and/or the government.

They avoid prosecutions because they cost, despite the fact that every state branch is sitting on a fortune - most of it invested rather than being spent on the animals a gullible public gives them money to protect. If they are driven to prosecute, they use police prosecutors who usually don't give a damn because they're cheap (and if you pay peanuts you get monkeys).

Since they claim to be able to influence governments, that's what they should be doing (instead of spending money on expensive advertising to rake in more money to invest). That's what other groups such as Voiceless and Animals Australia do, and they do it very well. Promoting slaughter and encouraging more farming of animals for slaughter is not the way.

Nicky

Nicky
Thank You. However you are missing the point. I would put it to you that you have in fact worked under their guidance and also PETA for a considerable amount of time.

Didn’t I see an article going way back from a PETA person and yourself?

Of course the counter argument to that would have to be we do not agree with you.
There in lies the point. The point is as I said if we take Animal welfare out of this argument what we have left is a peak organization refusing to work with main streams because of personal or preferred views,- no matter how well intended.

Nicky said

Are these animals stunned prior to slaughter?

pale relies= Yes and you know what Nicky they are at least slaughtered here and sent chilled carcass which you have all ~claimed you support. That’s diverting live to carcass.

Nicky Said
Are these animals stunned prior to slaughter?

Pale replies
How dare you even insult us to ask that? Who was it that requested AA and Useless to sit at the table to discuss the first gas plant to make slaughter more humane? That was a world first and described by the humane society as a huge step forward in animal welfare and blessed by Bridgett Bardott. But you knew that already Nicky of course. This is the obtuse attitude I was referring to above.

BTW was put to forth by the Muslim Leaders themselves ASKING everybody to work with them and RSPCA QLD and us.
Speaking of Muslim leaders just a few posts up you were invited also by pale to meet with them and the head Rabi to discuss Halal and Kosher slaughter Nicky but of course you couldn’t be involved. - Could you.?

You were ALL invited to assist free range farmers expand free range so the animals at least had a better life.

Oh Sorry I forgot- that’s not the aim is it? They wouldn’t even help with the Halal Veggie Farms?
RSPCA at least house feed vet and inspect.

Where’s the others going.

PALE, you really have to understand that you cannot force the world at large to agree with - or for that matter disagree with Animals Australia. The fact is that I do not think your way will make any difference, since there are tens of thousands of tonnes of meat already being exported there already. I won't dignify the remark about a media story about me with PETA representatives, because you must be dreaming, since you don't know me and you don't know any PETA people, since they also declined your project notions.

I suggest you go on doing things your way (but pleading for anyone and everyone to help, whether they are in sympathy with you or not (if it's so good why AREN'T they queueing up to help?) and let the rest of the world (seemingly) do it their way.

Animal welfare is going to reach a flashpoint soon anyway, following the story in the Age about 4,000 sheep a week being slaughtered without stunning in Victoria. Tony Burke will find himself under seige. I can't imagine how we could have finished up with someone worse than McGauran, but they say that the people get the government they deserve.

Nicky

*Tony Burke will find himself under seige. I can't imagine how we could have finished up with someone worse than McGauran,*

Nicky, hang on, give Tony Burke his due so far. I was nervous about
having an ag minister with no knowledge of agriculture, but so
far so good. He's on a huge learning curve and going to great trouble
to inform himself directly. He's the first ag minister that I can
remember, who has come to WA and checked things out personally,
including the live export feedlots. Perhaps Rudd's judgement was
correct after all.

Burke is minister for ag after all and he's certainly out there
talking to farmers, which is a great start.

Gertrude, I heard a news report on the radio, about a brown snake
entering a chicken joint on the Gold Coast and some customers
climbing up on the counters to escape. For some reason I wondered
if it was perhaps you :)

Hello Nicky,

Nobody is forcing anybody to do something.
Pale is only a few years old and is well known to the Governments both past and present for its Animal Welfare policies.

Pale has invited people of all Animal Welfare Groups to meet with Overseas Delegations and introduce them to farmers and had been met with hostility.

Pale is educating the public about animal welfare for what it really is.I personally think it is doing a great job.

Nicky, you seem to have a problem with accepting a kinder way of killing the animals here in AU instead of letting them suffer on their long trips and before and during slaughter? Why?
Do you think Pale likes to see animals killed? Certainly not, but at least the Organization cares enough about the animals whatever species to find an alternative to the cruelty to animals.
If Pale can achieve for the animals to have a much more humane death close to home I am sure if you don`t but at least the animals appreciate it.
Saying I don`t eat meat and then turning a blind eye to their suffering is not solving the animals misery, is it.
I notice that Pale ask you some questions on another threat before and you did not reply? Why? What is your solution besides not eating meat?
You put up a link re …RSPCAwatchdog.
What about PETA?

PETA Kills Animals | PetaKillsAnimals.com
That's more than five defenseless animals every day. ... The North Carolina animal-cruelty trial of two PETA employees ended with a surprising result, ...
www.petakillsanimals.com/ - 17k - Cached - Similar pages

You stir, but when it comes to the crunch you run…
I am listening.

1. Can't remember the questions, I am asked so many. Nor have I ever pretended to have all the solutions (as PALE does, but we little evidence of them happening)

2. There must be reasons why other groups chose not to associate themselves with PALE (possibly to do with the profits from HKM? Attitude?). PALE chooses not to give us those reasons, but continually makes allegations against other groups which it does not substantiate. That alone raises some legitimate concerns. They can't ALL be wrong, as PALE implies, since they are all promoting a ftrozen meat trade as well.

3. I won't dignify the statement about my not preferring the animals being slaughtered closer to home, it's just too fatuous

4. How many dogs and cats does the RSPCA euthanize every year? 200,000. Of course PETA is forced to euthanize dogs who cannot be found homes - they pay the price for human irresponsibility, neglect and cruelty. Alternatve methods to PETA's painless injections in the US include starving them to death, gassing them, inserting needles into their hearts ... need I go on?

Nicky

Gertrude, I heard a news report on the radio, about a brown snake
entering a chicken joint on the Gold Coast and some customers
climbing up on the counters to escape. For some reason I wondered
if it was perhaps you :)

Gertrude relpies.
Gee Yabbs,I am disappointed you didn’t pick up on that one. Remember I promised to do something about snakes.
Where else would I take the bugger other than an intensive poultry outlet:)



Thanks M S.

Nicky said she can’t recall the questions. Fair enough. Tell you what I will post them again.

Nicky said
Can't remember the questions, I am asked so many. Nor have I ever pretended to have all the solutions (as PALE does, but we little evidence of them happening)

pale comments

Nicky that’s a silly comment. Of course we can’t do it all alone but there has been a step in the right direction when you have a RPCA Branch working in Conjunction with another like ours.

I think that’s a first in the one hundred years or so of RSPCA history.
That’s shows RSPCA QLD is fair dinkim in their efforts to faze out live and replaces it with chilled.

Then you have a worlds first of pales MOU with Muslim Leaders working to improve Animal Welfare.
(But you say you can’t see any evidence) of solutions to the live trade being worked on by pale.

If you lot cant see it’s a plus to work together with the people who have the contacts to do something about the live trade in ME then I can’t help you.
I suggest you open your eyes. The demand for meat as Asia gets richer is going to be enormous and unless we come up with alternatives now it will never stop. Just as clearly the alternatives must be sensible ones that work for the farmer in Australia as well as ME buyers
HKM is a part of that project and pale are the only ones prepared to sit at the table and discuss sensible viable alternatives.

continued
Here is one question that you refuse to answer Nicky Whats your peoples plan? I put it to you that despite what is on the web sites the other groups refuse to work with us because they oppose the HKM project which you so helfully point out.
I further sugest to you that we have that in writing from the others.
Heres another question= Then why put on the sites they support the diversion from live trade to chilled while strongly opposing that very work being undertaken.
Please remember RSPCA and PALE are main stream organisations that do not oppose people eating meat but encourage the humane slaughter of animals as close to origen as possible.

I cant see where it helps to IMOP mislead the public because that works against the aniimals and our efforts to at least make conditions as best as possible.
Would I like to see the world go veggie personally Nicky. YES.
That wont do it however so we do what we can.

God Grant me the
SERENITY
to accept the things I cannot change
COURAGE
to change the things
I can and
WISDOM
to know the "difference"

P.A.L.E.:
Why don`t you start your own Webpage instead of trying desperately to invade and dominate these other Threads?

You seem to be conducting some sort of vendetta against any and all suggestions or comments posted by "Nicky"and the like!

I think that in your case the "trigger" word in this thread was "meat" .....a material that seems to have replaced grey matter in your so radical and self-centred empty void which seems to be wasting the space above your shoulders!

I suggest that there is an opening for you in the well-paid and under-worked world of Politics, after all they seem to talk a lot of Bovine excreta,..all talking and none listening, but achieving solace in the forcing of their views upon the rest of their idiot mates, whilst supping at the rich cup of the taxpayer`s purse!

You seem to be destroying any chance of sympathy for your cause because of your inherent rudeness and arrogance,....thus the opening as a politician!

For your information and for what it is Worth (sic),....those horses were down and many did die in the most distressing circumstances such as foaling, infection from barbed wire injuries and just plain starvation,....all reported to the RSPCA but to no avail, so in future I would NOT waste my time with you or the RSPCA!

Gertrude, given that you don't like brown snakes, you could
always put them to good use. Brown snakes have actually just
about taken over the island of Guam, wiping out a great deal
of the wildlife, birds etc.

In Thailand, where cobras are common, there are plenty of
cobra restaurants. Perhaps you have a career ahead of you
selling halal brown snake shishkebabs :)

Hi all

Cuphandle, thanks for that, and I couldn't agree more about the RSPCA. I understand that arrangements with RSPCA Queensland are different from those in other states insofar as RSPCAQueensland does not have responsibility for the enforcement of POCTAA legislation with farm animals (ie they get the good news stories about companion animals and none of the bad about farm animals). They then get upset when groups like AAQ step in over farm animals.

I'm aware of the horses you mention (in Victoria?) - ALV has a great website RSPCA Watchdog. Horses don't actually have to be "down" to be seized - there would need to be exigent circumstances and a refusal to comply with directives, I suspect, but those are open to interpretation, and if the horses were as bad as they certainly appeared to be then there is no question that the RSPCA should have seized them. ALV has begged the RSPCA to act over shocking abuses in battery hen and meat chicken farms as well with no success. There has been plenty of similar cases elsewhere. It's clearly wrong to have a "charity" enforcing legislation and it is the only legislation to be so enforced - when that charity shows itself to be unwilling or unable to act. Every RSPCA branch is sitting on investments worth in the millions, provided by people who think they are protecting animals. They invest it rather than spending it on additional inspectors and winnable prosecutions.

PALE does actually have a website (watch out for the music!). But I still see much talk and no action about MoUs, (i.e. proof), any current operations (indicating progress in all these plans), likewise the statements attributed to other groups discussed here, nor do I see RSPCA Queensland representatives entering discussions here. Muslim leaders referred to are extraordinarily reticent as well.

PALE, as for what I do, I will confine my description to publicity, politics and science. Not (what would appear to be) imaginary slaughtering plants.

Yabby, the allusion to brown snakes escapes me a bit - what am I missing here?
Cheers
Nicky

Nicky,
Can't remember the questions,

MS:
Hold your horses right here,will you. I will respond to that in another reply....

As a member of the public I never read that PALE claimed to have all the answers, but it makes every effort to provide the answers within a specific time frame.

2. There must be reasons why other groups chose not to associate themselves with PALE

MS: In my personal opinion Pale does not need to provide proof,it`s there for everybody to read.

That alone raises some legitimate concerns. They can't ALL be wrong, as PALE implies, since they are all promoting a ftrozen meat trade as well.

MS: I am speaking for myself here:Yeh, only on the website but when it comes down to it you are not and they are not. Proof me wrong.

3. I won't dignify the statement

MS: Are you implying that you rather see the animals being disrespected and cruelly treated overseas?

4. How many dogs and cats does the RSPCA euthanize every year?

MS:
Nicky the Rspca can only do what it can within its budged.
You seem to protect PETA who have far more money to play around with than RSPCA will ever have - and yet you do not condone them putting down animals.
Do you know how and where they invest their monies?
The RSPCA are not supported by PETA unlike some Australian Animal Welfare Groups
May if ask where your organization is putting it`s money?

Cuphandle
If you have to say something say it to “me directly”
After all I `ve posted that letter.
I made the comments within my right and observations.
Your unprofessional reply speaks for itself.
Since when does Nicky need a spokes person? If she can stir and provoke people on her own account she can face the music to reply to questions the public asks.

That aside I believe your reply on Nicky’s behalf is a bit more than below the Beltline.
I demand an apology from you and a retraction of your lack of educational wordings against me personally and Pale…
I do not tolerate such language in my home left alone on a public forum.

You may speak freely to your family in such a (*&^ %$#@@*)disrespectful manner but “certainly” not to me or any other member of the public.
Is that understood?

If I were you I would hit the delete button ASAP as your reply is of no benefit to yourself or your organization...

For what it’s worth your educational standard seems to be on a very primitive level.
“Ich nehme nicht Woerter in meinen Mund die ich nicht in die Hand nehme”
Translated:” I do not take word into my mouth that I do not take into my hands.”
No Vendetta is going on against Nicky. …Your united efforts don’t seem to achieve the results you expected.
You are full of despise, yet you stir and deliberately provoke people to find out more, but when Nicky or some one else is being ask a question they don’t respond.

To cover up your incompetence to reply and to your own discredit you then badmouth people with no evidence in the pipeline.

If you don’t want to debate this serious animal welfare matter in an appropriate and civilized manner it’s up to you, but keep it professional respectful and civilised.
If you don’t want to discuss the matter on your own threat as a civilised adult,
I suggest you stay out of the debate knit and some jumpers for your children or grandchildren.

cAnd yes, when it comes to the crunch you run except for this low standard level of reply. There is no need for you cuphandle to use dirty, filthy uncivilised language if Nicky is not willing to respond to questions asks.

Just say that you can not answer the question but don’t go diverting the topic because of “ your” failure or inability to respond.


Not one of you has offered a solution or alternative to the cruel live exports what so ever and yet you believe to be above everybody else and can treat others like what ever.
You met with me the wrong person.

Cuphandle said:
I suggest that there is an opening for you ..

MS:Your filthy language does not make two wrongs right.
Your own uncivilised words speak for themselves and they are there for everybody to read …
Isn’t it marvellous to think one can get away with it just by using a Nickname??

By the way you are wrong. People are listening- they comprehend what’s written on the Forum.
They think about it and are capable of making up their own minds.
Pale does not have all the answers but tries to get the info when being ask…

Just because you started the thread does not mean that you have the right to use inappropriate language and bad-mouth people for speaking the truth.
The truth is “already” out there for everybody to read.
May be you are illiterate? No offence meant.
Where is your proof to substantiate your claims to back up your bad mouthing? Pale can provide evidence by the numbers

Cuphandle:
You seem to be destroying any chance!

MS:No, wrong again, you destroy your own or what’s left of it.
Unlike you PALE is straight forward and does not want sympathy for its cause.
Pale’s priority is and always was animal welfare.
Its agenda is to inform the public to broaden their view about the Animal Welfare in AU in general and to help farmers to get a better deal for their product.
What is yours?
ontinued:

Gertrude, given that you don't like brown snakes, you could
always put them to good use. Brown snakes have actually just
about taken over the island of Guam, wiping out a great deal
of the wildlife, birds etc.

Gertrude Replies
Hilarious
Yupp, we could toss in a Halal veggie platter to go! :)

More Hilarious (for you) I’ve given it serious consideration... I find the idea, rather ’liberating’ :) Mind you I’d need a catcher ah, Yabbs. Umm, a U catch em, we’ll, sell em deal 75 % your way. After all you’d be taking all the risks. :)

You needn`t worry yourself about those old sheep Yabbs we’ll look after them while your gone.

Reckon we could turn some into eBay stars- You know a buy me ` now ‘please’ tag. Tayn would be there in a flash!

Hell we could all keep thehome fire burning and think of the possibilities– the worst that could happen would be the world might loose another person supporting live exports:)

- Small sacrifices along the way but you know all about sacrifices don’t you Yabbs.
Cuphandle,

It was ah, the “both of you “that went off topic I will remind you – not pale... You appear to be a past master of manipulation at diverting our topics.
We can’t get two words out on any of the without the cavalry arriving to bag pale and post PETA material.

I will also remind you that pale support much of the work done by peta and other groups but now reject the obtuse attitude at the hatred that has been returned.

We joined OLO as full members and as such we get a vote like every other member – nothing more. You will see our web site on OLO however haven’t put the petition up as yet so thanks for reminding us.

The plan so far you may have noticed to stop our work has failed miserably.

Thats because you all underestimated the intention of pale from day one.

Whats" "really"" the problem with people working 'self funded' to help Animals ?

Ahh, but Yabby, the brown snakes on Guam are not the deadly version we see here in oz. It is in fact the brown tree snake you speak of. Yes they do do damage to wildlife but not so much to humans. Unlike the australian trouser snake or the well known snake in the grass ;)

Maybe you are unfamiliar with the eastern brown?

Hi all
Poor Cuphandle, you really copped it, didn't you? I didn't see any filthy language, and with respect to the educational standards of the posts, I'd have to say that your grammar, spelling and punctuation is right up there, which is more than can be said for Macropod Whisperer. We now have the threats creeping in here as well, which seems to be usually the case if someone hurts PALE's feelings. It will be legal action next. One wonders whether Macropod Whisperer is the same person who used to post on other threads under the name of Antje Struthman and whose grammar, spelling and punctuation are remarkably similar to that of PALE.

Macropod Whisperer - who is MS? Why do you, PALE and TarynW copy sections of posts before responding to them? You are wasting your word limit, apart from anything else.

MW, I do not condone animals being needlessly destroyed by anyone - in fact, I do not condone animals being destroyed at all. But since humans have created the problem of unwanted companion animals, if it must be dealt with, it must be done humanely. PETA has more money than the RSPCA because they are so much better at what they do, I'd suggest. Why on earth would they support the RSPCA? Their philosphies are worlds apart. I do not belong to a group, so I therefore do not "put money" anywhere.

Cuphandle's earlier post about animals at abattoirs (let's call them for what they are - slaughterhouses) was very telling and explains in part, I suggest, why people do not want to get involved with PALE and its HKM deal. Probably the threats of legal action annoyed them a bit too. But still we don't know for sure because PALE won't tell us.

Finally, MW, I have given all the answers I am prepared to give. And speaking of abuse, it was you who introduced it to this thread, not Cuphandle. Get over yourself.

Cheers
Nicky

Cuphandle said

You seem to be conducting some sort of vendetta against any and all suggestions or comments posted by "Nicky"and the like!

PALE replies

That is untrue. We have asked you both to post your suggestions for a year or so.

I ask you again right now- What are your suggestions. You don’t seem to have any.

Other than rubbish ours. That is a matter of record on this forum.

Cuphandlesaid

in your case the "trigger" word in this thread was "meat" .

pale replies

Hilarious, and each time we post about meat or our efforts to increase chilled meet with the HKM program
You disrupt it with bombarding us with insults and disrupting the thread.

You want to talk meat= that’s a step in the right direction but ‘ somehow ‘I doubt your sincerity.

You don’t want to talk about meat Cuphandle.

What I can’t for the life of me understand is why nobody has taken us up on the projects to increase Halal veggies with a chain of fast food stores in which you would also be free to campange against those big bad HKM people and meat eaters in general.

HKM is just one project and as I pointed out to you before that bloody awful Music you keep complaing about on the site is the bushman’s bible= Slim Dusty Cattle Men from the High Planes
.
http://www.halakindmeats.com/

PALES Web site as you see is in Conjunction with RSPCA QLD= However you will also see the CEO RSPCA QLD on HKM web page along with the Muslim leaders of Australia .

http://www.livexports.com/

If it’s good enough for them to support the farmers then hey we don’t give too much concern for a pair of what we suspect is well intended but emotionally unstable veggies.

BTW Debbie and Suzanne we were actually instructed not to even try! Working with either of you after many attempts to reason with either of you failed.

It’s good you both care about animals but really your doing them no favors by never ending vicious attacks on pale or RSPCA either.

Speaking of instability - who, for heavens sake, are Debbie and Suzanne? Presumably more people who had the temerity to disagree with you and paid the price of the gratuitous insults. BTW - "Plains" in the context of your music is spelled like that, not as in aeroplanes.

You said on another thread that you had operations running in various states - and I asked under what name/s and you didn't respond. Are they a figment of PALE's overactive imagination? The AMIEU doesn't seem to be able to make the connection.

Neither Cuphandle (although I don't know who he/she is) nor I have pretended to have the solutions. But I'd suggest it would be fairly obvious that the HKM notion really doesn't seem to be making progress (therefore is not a solution, but if it did, could PALE still claim to be NFP?). Furthermore, for myself at least, I would not support the breeding of more and more animals just to kill them, and quite brutally at that. Tens of thousands of tonnes of meat are shipped to the Middle East every year so I can't imagine what the advantage of HKM would be over the established slaughterhouses. But I'm sure you'll tell me. Perhaps the CEO of RSPCA Queensland might like to update his support too.

You should read the stats at Animals Australia's website.

Nicky

"Furthermore, for myself at least, I would not support the breeding of more and more animals just to kill them, and quite brutally at that"

Thats a rather emotional statement Nicky, Just to kill them?

But thats how the animal welfare groups work isnt it? Dramatic and exaggerated statements, manipulated photos etc etc designed to play on the emotions of people that do care about animals. Trouble is, they, like yourself and others here, have no answer but to "go veggie or vegan" and that just aint going to happen. It then becomes necessary to constantly keep these visions in people's minds or, without a real solution, they quickly forget.

IMO these 'veggie' animal welfare groups care more about their own ideals and ego than they do about the animals.

Pales plan may have a few holes and may never get off the ground, but at least they have one :)

You pathetic would-be dictators out there:
Once again I would remind you thickards that this Thread was started by myself, and it appears that you lot are so rabidly intent on espousing your own twisted agendas that you have thrust aside any chance of logical reference to the original subject!

I came out in support of "Nicky" because I felt that she out of the lot of you was the only one educated and intellectual enough to continue any reasonable discussion. I DO NOT know "Nicky" and for your information I am a 69 year old retired male farmer who unfortunately has more to do than spend his time exchanging childish insults back and forth with obvious "plonkers"!


Nicky:
I wouldn`t bother wasting my time with the majority on this Thread which itself has now obviously been taken over by a bunch of illiterate posteriors, who think that they are the answer to all the world`s sufferings....maybe they too are awaiting the arrival of that fictitious space ship to take them all off this planet and to eternal paradise, somewhere up there in their warped imaginations!

Did someone mention my name?
Nicky said
Why do you, PALE and TarynW copy sections of posts before responding to them?
Posted by Nicky,

Tayn, here Nicky- What a strange comment. Here are a few more I read as follows full of abuse and picking on person whos first tongue isnt English but has done a enormous amount of hands on work and reasonsible for introducing new codes through RSPCA QLD
Oh heres your next comment >
"PALE does actually have a website (watch out for the music!).

Nicky Its clear to me if not others you have problem- get help
Why is it you think you lot can bounce and demand.
////

Here is some of you charm yet again>
"BTW - "Plains" in the context of your music is spelled like that, not as in aeroplanes."
FYI the web page was updated by a eighteen years old boy who loves animals and spends ALL his time helping
Your such a &^%4$#

RE this comment-
"The AMIEU doesn't seem to be able to make the connection."
Nicky the pale petition is up on AMIEU in each state other than WA because we requested they leave the PAACT on there because they do some GREAT work

Here you are again>
Perhaps the CEO of RSPCA Queensland might like to update his support too.
Well Golly Nicky Yes sir I am sure he will SPRING to YOUR attention
Who do YOU THINK you ARE.

Then you say- How predictable-

"You should read the stats at Animals Australia's website".

Nicky why is that?
If you have something interesting why not say so.

Three!of my family members donate to PETA two! to AA One! to AL in two! states.
We are a family of animal overs but I choose to work with pale because at least they have a plan and because they dont dicate to what members can do or say.
And they are NOT a unfriendly bunch of %$#@
You should be ashamed of yourself

*the brown snakes on Guam are not the deadly version we see here in oz.*

PF it seems that they originate in Oz and have virtually taken over
Guam. Something like 20 snakes to the acre, causing all sorts
of problems. Could be cousins of your Eastern Brown. I guess they
might all taste just fine in a shishkebab :)

* Unlike the australian trouser snake *

Ahh, now they are an exception! They are highly prized and loved
by their owners, who take them everywhere. They just spit a little
when really happy :)

Nicky said

Speaking of instability - who, for heavens sake, are Debbie and Suzanne?

Pale replies-

Well er, Nicky that is untrue and you know it.
You girls remember should remember while playing your silly spiteful games to take each others tags off> Note that we would know you pair anywhere by your trade mark as nati and trouble makers

You posted this Nicky
_
When you look at these bodies on your table at Christmas, remember these animals had faces. They felt heat, cold, pain, terror and loneliness.

Enjoy!
Suzanne Cass
Nicky

Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 2 February 2008 11:54:28 PM

Hi Cuphandle and PF (I won't bother with a salutation to the rest)

Cuphandle, I think you're right, now that these people have descended into total idiocy, it's time to retire from this thread. The problem is when you start another one, no matter how worthwhile, they infiltrate that too, and it really is shameless publicity for their particular slaughtering organization - and nothing more. It seems safe to assume that the "Directors" of HKM and PALE would be sharing any profits (should it ever get off the ground), and you can't really do that in the name of "caring for the animals", and expect to have any credibility, I'm afraid (PF, you and I parted company here. Are you breeding animals to live a normal, healthy lifespan?)

No-one but the PALE contingent has engaged in any abuse. I made no criticism of anyone's language difficulties, I merely pointed out the similarities between the postings of a number of supposedly different individuals. And unfortunately, with spelling errors like "plains/planes" your website loses credibility through lack of professional editing. Music does nothing for such a website either, especially THAT music. To whom is it meant to appeal?

As for the PALE petition being on the website of every AMIEU branch, unfortunately, it is not even on one of them. WA is the only branch to mention live exports at present and I expect the material they have is from PACAT (not PAACT). And that was not the question. Finally, if the CEO of RSPCA Queensland is as supportive as you collectively claim, why would he not make a contribution in your defence (you surely need it!)? I suspect that he doesn't know the extent to which his name is being taken "in vain". Taryn, I expect that if you cannot behave in a more civilized fashion on these threads, there must be a machanism by which you can be barred, so I should tread more carefully if I were you. Who cares about donations members of your family make to which organizations? It is totally irrelevant.

Nicky

Yabby, you forgot to mention the most important attribute of the trouser snake! Their proud owners use them to think with :)

"PF, you and I parted company here. Are you breeding animals to live a normal, healthy lifespan?)"

Nicky, I dont know of anyone that breeds any animal if not for profit of some kind - including cats and dogs. How that animal (raised for meat) is treated before its eventual slaughter is what is important to me but seems irrelevant to a few veggie groups. Define a normal healthy lifespan. In many many cases that would be far less pleasant than being kept on a farm, in fact many animals live longer lives in these conditions.

Nicky I have been amused by your responses to pale of late, it was not that long ago that you were chastising me for the very same thing!

PALE, now I'm convinced I am dealing with an iliterate as well as someone decidedly off the air. Your confusing me with Suzanne Cass, who I understand is an activist in Tasmania, is flattering.

If you look - really slowly and carefully - you will see that I have copied from an article written by Suzanne, which includes her name, then signed mine below that. If you couldn't make that distinction, it's hardly surprising that you haven't been successful in a) getting a business venture happening and b) becoming a credible entity in animal welfare. Sorry to have disappointed you! We do not even live in the same state.

It seems you have also managed to attribute the name Debbie to a 69 year old retired male farmer (Cuphandle). You really must get a grip on this paranoia of yours. You may contribute in any number of identities, but that does not mean everyone does.
Nicky!!

*Their proud owners use them to think with :)*

Ahh, but at least that makes them uncomplicated and highly
predictable :)

Nicky, ok so now we know that your ideology is all about
animal liberation etc.

Now explain something to me. Lets say that tomorrow you are
hit by a proverbial bus. All very sad really, the relies would
shed some tears and then everyone moves on. You in reality, would
be down the recycling path, as we all land up. But you would
not know a thing about it, so it really would not matter in the
bigger scheme of things.

Its a fact of life that if we risk living, we risk dying. Some
live longer then others, thats just how life plays out.

Now explain to me where I get this wrong, but I get the impression
that you think that the animals on this farm would be better off
having had no life, then life on a free range farm. Next, if
some of those animals have their lives ended early, just as you
could, if that proverbial bus hit you, then you think thats wrong.

To me this all makes no sense at all, unless somebody has a totally
paranoid fear of dying or something.

Why won't you accept that only so many of a species can live
at one time, in a sustainable way, or they die of starvation?
Thats the reality. Given that none of the animals that land
up having their lives shortened will miss a day of it, just like
you won't, if lifes dice falls that way, I just don't see
where your problem is.

Continued

Nicky Said

Speaking of instability - who, for heavens sake, are Debbie and Suzanne?
Perhaps the CEO of RSPCA Queensland might like to update his support too. You should read the stats at Animals Australia's website.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Saturday, 2 February 2008 11:54:28 PM

*Pale Answers*
Ah, Debbie that where it gets really interesting.> Animals Australia Member Societies> AA and supporting PETA
Of course and Suzannes articles for AA web site were GOOD BTW= You have just demonstrated to the public the endless attack on our organization by the extreme people of which you are a part of.> So to answer now your question WHO is Debby its in writing below for all to see>
Member Societies // Animals Australia
Animal Activism QLD. PO Box 703 Stones Corner QLD 4120 Contact: Debra Morris Web: http://www.animalactivism.org Email: +. Animal Liberation QLD. PO Box 463 ...
www.animalsaustralia.org/about/member_societies.php - 32k - Cached - Similar pages

Dear Ah```````Nicky
I can assure you I knew “from the first posts including the different IDs I have ALWAYS known that I was debating but decided as you cared for animals I would let it go.
Your dislike of RSPCA QLD CEO is also unwarranted. God Knows he tried to explain things to you. He never said he was happy with the laws or the codes did him? Your dislike of him is unwarranted but here is the proof again in writing below.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/qld/stories/s1253968.htm

Pale as you know works in conjunction with RSPCA QLD on live exports ONLY and RSPCA QLD supports ANY moves to faze out live for chilled. That’s includes HKM.

Of course Suzanne and Debbie have been very much involved with Animals Australia and PETA but hey why not are honest.

It was in fact I myself who suggested you two worked together in the first place and provided contact email address. (I knew you would get on life a house on fire)

To further answer your questions >

Catherine Cooke
STOP TASMANIAN ANIMAL CRUELTY, TAS
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 1 February 2008 7:23:28 PM

To Be Contiuned

CONTIUNED

Pale comments
Believe it or not I take NO pleasure in doing this but you have both gone too far and left a concerning trial...

Nicky said
Tony Burke will find himself under seige.
Nicky
Posted by Nicky, Friday, 1 February 2008 7:23:28 PM

Pale comments
What a ridiculous comment. You do harm to the animals and other organizations by this type of comment.

Nicky said

I suggest why people do not want to get involved with PALE and its HKM deal. Probably the threats of legal action annoyed them a bit too. But still we don't know for sure because PALE won't tell us.

Pale replies
Interesting comment especially if you happened to be Peter McGauran

Nicky said
As for the PALE petition being on the website of every AMIEU branch, unfortunately, it is not even on one of them

Pale relies
Actually you silly girl the pale petition was ordered to be on every state in Australia by the federal leader years ago. What concerns me is your attitude towards fellow animal lovers and this vicious control which you extreme lot demand.
Here it is FYI=

http://amieu.asn.au/search.php?q=aboard

AMIEU Federal Branch
The AMIEU (Australasian Meat Industry Employees' Union) is a union for all persons working in the ... Live Export Petition. PETITION VIEW SIGNATURES ...
amieu.asn.au/search.php?q=aboard - 19k - Cached - Similar pages
More results from amieu.asn.au »

Regarding you comment we threatened to sue AA= not so it’s the other way around= they threatened to sue us because we copied something Yabby said. Well At Least Peter McGauran Has Company I guess.

I put it to you that you are not even interested to assist to open a chain of fast food veggie chains.

Lets face it PETA can afford it girls and hey we have offered several times to give you contacts of people very interested.
They are NOT only interested in Halal meat but you know that already!
Your agenda and who you work with is VERY clear.

Why dont you ask Ingred or Glenyse as leaders to debate us?

Cuphandle, my apologies - I am abandoning this thread after this one, I'm afraid. I don't know what they drink or smoke at PALE, but I've run out of patience with this nutter fringe which has achieved nothing and whose contributions are worth even less.

I would have thought that there would be some rules on this forum about behaviour - maybe there are. There should certainly be something about lunatic assertions about all sorts of people that have no relationship with fact, and using and corrupting threads to tout for business, which is basically all PALE does - and not very well either, because there doesn't actually appear to BE a business. In future, I shall either abandon any thread to which PALE "contributes" (and I use the terms loosely), or respond to discussion points from others and ignore anything I see from PALE and its equally bizarre cohorts (if indeed they exist. They seem to be the product of a deluded mind). PF, you were right all along, I'm afraid. Yabby, you have more patience than I do, I'm afraid.

PALE, I cannot believe that your RSPCA CEO in Queensland has any idea of the sort of inane rubbish you publish about him, nor would he be silly enough to support the untruthful, abusive and vitriolic nonsense you write. Do you not ever read your posts and realize how insane (and illiterate) you appear? If you ever want to have a sensible debate with anyone, you have a steep learning curve ahead of you. It is now absolutely clear why none of the other groups would have anything to do with you. You give a bad name to anything to do with animal welfare.

Nicky

nicky

Of course you would bolt after being exposed-.

You need not either drag cuphandle into it because you well know to whom we were directing our comments.Likewise Dickie who was at least honest as to who she was.

I see she had the good sense to pull out when your attacks on us because we work to support farmers became over the top.

I further note she picked up on the link we posted into the Senate enquiry into Abattoirs in WA.



In all the true loss to this forum if we are talking animal welfare would have to be Dickie.

You girls waiste so much time that could be put to good to help animals.
We have no problem with others be they veggie or main stream.

PETA as Taryn pointed out enjoys support from many of our members and Animals Australia also. Tayns family being one of them.

We have a different approach sure- but its to the same end.

Your never going to stop people eating meat Nicky you can only improve things as much as possible. We are doing something practicle about diverting live to chilled.

We are honest and upfront as to what we think and what we are trying to acheive. We post in our 'real names because I assure you Taryn is Taryn and Antje Is Antje and so forth.

I mean how unkind to pick on spelling when you know shes Germann.

As for RSPCA QLD CEO hes a hard working person who has spear headed many special programes. He tried to get Animal Activism QLD Debbie to understand he can not use material in court that has been gained by tress pass or break and enter but hed love any material he or his inspectors 'can' use.


It is the Government that allow people to treat animals in barbaric ways and the Government that must wake out to themselves and make changes to the laws.


Yabby How do you breed snakes?

"Ahh, but at least that makes them uncomplicated and highly
predictable :)"

Does this mean then Yabby that you are not a snake keeper? Maybe then you have more in common with that other species, Snake in the Grass :)

Nicky there are rules but dont expect anyone to be watching over and policing the thread. You need to click the little red button under the offensive post to bring it mananagement's attention.

Nicky:
I like yourself have decided to retire from this particular Thread, but in doing so would suggest that any reasonably thinking individual, after browsing and digesting the garbage that has emanated from "some groups" in response to my perfectly sensible originating question, should now retire, as you and I are doing, and leave the standover malcontents to continue their espousing their narrow-minded views,....eventually when they are the only ones left contributing, the whole Thread will then grind to a halt and they will inevitably either start another one or alternatively "invade" someone else`s Thread!

Yabby
I think your favorite girl, PF is having a dig at you. You don’t reckon she’s sus your a tad err, sneaky do you whoever would have thought it ah. :)

Btw how’s that new web site going for the Government? I looked for it but couldn’t find it in the mass of sites protesting against live exports ah :):)

I was wondering who catches those snakes for the restaurants would you know.

Also can people breed them? I suppose they can since they keep them in tanks. After all the aboriginals ate them.

It would a excellent way to highlight the hypocacy of some protecting snakes and ignoring other intensive farms.
Got a spare room there yabbs we wouldn’t want them to get cold and anyway you’d have company:)
I am sure you could rely on the team to do the advertising:)

Cup handle, ladies= Why don’t you open a thread on the benefits of being a vegetarian.

It’s bound to attract completely different posters. IMOP you would get a lot of support.

Your reply Cup handle
When starting a thread it doesn’t automatically mean control of others.

“I remind you it was yourselves who went off topic.”

It might also be wise not to dig a bigger hole than some find themselves in already by saying things that are untrue about a person or organization.

At the end of the day despite pretend names every person using a public forum is still responsible for his or her comments. Following of course correct producers it really isn’t difficult to pursue.

It would seem we do have something in common. Our concerns are along the par with yourself and the Australian Government= on both sides. They don’t like the ‘stand over malcontents ‘either.

We can not have any ‘peak’ representatives OF ANYTHING only prepared to work with a very small percentage to push extreme views That’s rather disingenuous given any leader is meant to represent the majority.

TO BE CONTINUED

Yes and I would like to say after moving from NSW to QLD to work with pale I am happy to be involved in a program that is attacking at the root of the problem not sitting on the fence.

Nor can we have misleading information put out either on web sites or any other way. We all must be honest in what we stand for to the public always.

To use or abuse any position to purposely disadvantage some of the public is not only morally wrong it’s unethical.

I will give you an example= If for instance we had a peak child welfare organization who actively directed all their members not to speak with work with some of the community = Lets say the aboriginal people or Muslim people( Example only) Then that would be very wrong indeed .

It would make matters even worse if for example that peak organization had influenced Senators or people in power to ensure some people were favored or perhaps some cut out.

It would be exceptional don’t you think if= example again %98 of the public were main stream with pretty ordinary views.

That in fact would mean you had a peak group directing and instructing the members to disregard the wishes of %98 percent of public.

It would also be taken I would hope rather seriously by our Government if people were being targeted in any way and was a clear abuse of powers to disadvantage some.

Australians not a place for extremism in any manner and nor is it a place for bullying the little guy.

. We support everybody working to improve welfare and that is simply a matter of record.

intentions have always been to increase the carcass trade at the expense of live Instead of just telling everybody how horrible it is we wanted to do more.

HKM is a Program organized between Muslim leaders of Australia and we to work united to improve Animal Welfare.

continued

It is a arm of pale set up especially to work with our Muslim Leaders to attack the problem of the animal welfare concerns that we all share.

I share some of the task while also working with international agencies

Many Muslim people are Veggies as we term them and more are concerned about a fair go for farm animals.

It must be said BTW that Debbie and Suzanne along with hundreds of others have dedicated their lives to stand up for Animals.

These people who give an extraordinary amount of their time and many for free our true treasures of this country.

I am also fortunate enough to share an office with some other treasures that do just the same amount of work being Taryn Winter and Wendy Lewthwaite and my name is Antje Struthmann. I work with several organizations and they all do wonderful things but above all my hat goes many people in the public who just cant do enough-

There are also many others working tirelessly and some of those people are at RSPCA QLD. Despite the lack of proper laws IMOP we have in Australia we are all doing what we can.

This is our Motto and hope it gives you the strength to make the right choices in your endeavors to improve the welfare of our most innocent of all= Our Australian Farm Animals

We may have different ways but united we are for the animals and that will never change.

GOD grant me the
SERENITY
To accept the things I cannot change
COURAGE
To change the things
I can, and
WISDOM
To know the
Difference.

Hi all

My final comment to this thread is ... there has to be a certain significance and irony to PALE using the Alcoholics Anonymous prayer as its slogan. It might explain the severe thought disturbances that go on there, including outlandish claims and attributing bizarre identities to anyone they see as threats. It must be the persecution complex.

One thing I forgot to add last night was that I would suggest that PALE check with each state branch of the AMIEU, because its worthless electronic petition does NOT appear on even one website. AMIEU WA has a PACAT version, and that is the only mention of live exports. Get over it, PALE, those were just more wild and unsubstantiated claims. If you think you can get a politician to present that to Parliament, go for it.

I'm sure that no Australian Senator (and we all know you mean Bartlett) is incapable of independent thought, and therefore is not unduly influenced by any group, "peak" or otherwise. Maybe if I ever have the energy to deal with PALE's claptrap again, I might try and find out what "international agencies" they are dealing with; that should be a whole new series of "off the wall" claims.

Cuphandle, I'm sure we will meet again on other threads. Likewise Yabby and PF, I have learned interesting facts from both of you, so thank you, even if we do not always agree. PF, I really hope your labelling project has been a huge success, you certainly deserve it.

See ya!
Nicky

Nicky

What the- Difference does it make to you if pale have their petition up om AMIEU. The only reason pale pointed that out is once again you tried to make out they were not honest. It was you who raised the AMIEU with such wild claims as pale had nil to do with them.

This is and you are so childish but it gives an insight to others as to the mentality and the nasty people demading others dont eat meat.

Now it just so happens that it was 'my job' back then to get it to all the states- the amieu i am speaking about and it was put on the federal one as well.
So what. Whats the big deal. Its not like its called a stop to the live trade is it?
I didnt see anybody mention Andrew either.
Its clear helping animals isnt your first concern and its clear you hate the fact we work to support rspca qld. As a member who has helped out as often as possible in the pale office i can say i have opended more hate mail from looney veggies than i ever thought possible.
You should know by now pale wont be bullied as others have out of animal welfare.
Too bad if you dont like the HKM programe Nicky. Too bad if you dont like RSPCA. Go do your own thing . You are so clever then come up with something yourself ok

For what it is of interest to you I do not really know but here is the petition on the sight and i am personally very dissapointed with your carrying on so in the name of animal welfare.
Thats the problem with you veggies maybe you lack something.
Heres the petition UP ON THE SITE CAN YOU READ!!

http://www.amieu.asn.au/

http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

Well at least pale taught you to speak with a bit more respect to farmers ! Glory Be! .

I will further say to anybody reading this that I have seen the most
discusting letters sent to the pale office from people calling them animal killers and all sorts of other names.
I love animals and have done since i was a baby. All my life i just wanted to be somewhere or find somewhere that i felt i could contribute.
My family and I joined lots of groups for many things but i always felt silly and frustrated just turning up on a special day and standing there or raising money because for me that wasnt doing enough.
I have been a part and involved with many groups all of my or most of my life and we still send our money off each month and sigh petition and so forth.

I think its the right thing to do to look seek and I hope find ways by talking to farmers and talking to people especially the Muslims who buy so many animals to try to improve methods of slaughter and lesson their time travelling.
My family and I do eat meat so of course that makes me enermy number one.Until these veggies understand that most people eat meat its going to be this war of words i fear.
I dont think it would be fair after all pales been through to support Minister McGuran in this court action because apart from pale and RSPCA he is right they are all over the top and dreadul people whom as much as I try I am growing to actually hate.

I never thought i would feel that way about somebody else who loves animals but people eat meat and why should pale be bullied out of animal welfare!What has happend on OLO is the norm at the office. I know becauseI have copped the calls myself.
Whats Wrong with these people! I am really angry now. Why attack good people working hard to help the animals. I never want to hear the word libbers again and i USED to donate to them

I mean I Do Think It would be more than fair for them to give evidence for Peter McGuran. I really think its time these people were brought to size.

I am fed up with Animal Welfare being run by people who say one thing on their web site but behind closed doors say they wont help to open abattoirs.
Ok Ok They dont have to help if they dont want to but dont give the public the impression they are doing all they can when all thats happening is the people working to do just that9 turn it from live to chilled) are beeing attacked left right and center.

How come these people are the leaders thats what i want to know.
Isnt this telling lies to the public. Why dont they just say we are Veggies .

Well I best post this and hope I have not said too much.

I stopped posting because of the attacks but i am really really upset that they just dont mind their own business and that the animals suffer while others sit on theire@ and refuse to help!

Just for everybody`s information

The Alcoholic Anonymous prayer was originally

Written by Reinhold Niebuhr theologian in the 30`s or 40`s (1892-1971)Complete, Unabridged, Original Version below

God, give us grace to accept with serenity
the things that cannot be changed,
Courage to change the things
which should be changed,
and the Wisdom to distinguish
the one from the other.

Living one day at a time,
Enjoying one moment at a time,
Accepting hardship as a pathway to
peace,
Taking, as Jesus did,
This sinful world as it is,
Not as I would have it,
Trusting that You will make all things
right,
If I surrender to Your will,
So that I may be reasonably happy in this
life,
And supremely happy with You forever in
the next.
Amen.

The prayer was circulated by the Federal Council of Churches and later in the United States Armed forces.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serenity_Prayer#History_and_text

Whew, there are advantages to being male. We have other things on
our minds, whilst you girls have your bitchfests :)

*Does this mean then Yabby that you are not a snake keeper? *

Indeed PF, I am the keeper of a very special trousersnake.
Its quite a practical specimen which has long concluded that
it does not need to buy a cow, in order to obtain a glass
of milk. Best to let somebody else feed and put up with
the cow, unless she's a very special cow.
Some of these snakes can be quite practical and
logical :)

Cuphandle,

"what happens to the Meat ?? " you ask.

I asked our "meat manager" on the job today at our preferred big supermarket, this exact question .

His answer without too much prying, was that they throw out "less than one percent ."

He also said that this was achieved by having "specials" and while this enabled them to sell 99% plus of their meat they often lost money on the "specials ".

Sounds like a fair thing to me and they seem to be consistent with their pricing .

The feeling I gleaned from his female offsider was that they really preferred to manage with the very minimum wastage of this acknowledged valuable product .

Dear God, what a nutter (not you, Yabby or Jim). A great lesson in how to achieve zero credibility and zero respect.
Nicky.

Spoken like a true snake in the grass :)

Practical? Or just incapable of getting the most from his cow? Only a good snake keeper knows how to keep a happy cow and keep that milk flowing. The bad keeper is resigned to the occasional glass of milk when it becomes available or has to settle for a substitute (like the powdered variety) Whats happens to this keeper when he himself is all dried up? Probably gets packed off to Guam to live out his days with the other keepers that all hold the notion that they too are the keepers of very special snakes. Explains the over population of snakes in Guam nicely!

http://www.rspca.org.au/admin/Sharedfiles/rspca%20analysis%20of%20mla%20le%20standards%20report_04-02-08.pdf

An interesting and timely document considering the recent discussions here about the RSPCA.

Nah PF, cows vary in behaviour. Some are placid and enjoy being
milked, so that makes life simple. Some have "mad cow disease",
so best to avoid them :)

No, no Yabby, you have that arse about. Mad cow disease is the result of the cow spending too much time in the company of an incompetent snake handler.

As for the snake that prefers to take advantage of 'bulling' cows, he winds up becoming his own handler most of the time.

*Mad cow disease is the result of the cow spending too much time in the company of an incompetent snake handler.*

Nope PF, its a brain disease, those mad cows just can't help
themselves lol.

Milk today is a common commoditiy, available in many flavours.
Those cows keep forgetting them none of them has a patent on it :)

Easiest to just to let somebody else feed the cows and sneak an
odd glass of milk now and then.

Actually, Mad Cow Disease occurs because PEOPLE feed cattle the remains of other animals (from the spinal cord/s, I think). So you're right, they can't help it, especially if they're in feedlots, I'd reckon. It's supposed to be illegal to feed herbivorous animals other animals in Australia, but who knows?

Yabby, have you read the RSPCA's new report on the ALES yet? Excellent, as far as it goes.
Cheers
Nicky

Nicky's right about this. As I recall, the etiology of the proliferation of BSE in the UK was clearly identified to be the feeding of ground animal meal, that included bovine neural material, to cattle in feedlots.

Did anybody listen to Qld ABC Country Hour yesterday? There was an interview with a guy from the RSPCA who was asserting strongly that Australia's animal welfare standards for live exports are among the highest in the world. I think he actually said "world's best practice" or something to that effect.

http://www.abc.net.au/rural/qld/content/2007/s2154002.htm

RSPCA claims live export trade lacks enforceable standards
By Liz Rodway

Monday, 04/02/2008

The RSCPA is today claiming the Australian standards for the export of live animals are flawed and the trade needs to stop.

The animal welfare organisation will release a report today outlining why the live export trade is not world's best practice.

Chief scientist with the RSPCA Bidda Jones says the live export sector has had 10 years to get the industry right but the standards that exist are not working.

The Australian Standards for the Export of Livestock were developed in consultation with industry and state, territory and federal governments and cover selection of animals on farm right through to conditions on boats.

Bidda Jone says the RSPCA found in it's analysis of the standards and the report published by MLA that the majority of standards can't be properly enforced under current arrangements, many of the standards are unmeasurable so therefore unenforceable and the process lacks transparency, reporting and feedback to live exporters.

"AQIS (Australian Quarantine and Inspection Service) ... has powers under specific legislation, but it doesn't really have a role in enforcing standards in terms of the onfarm selection of animals for export, or the land transport of animals from the property of origin," she says.

Please click on link for full story
Thank You CJ Are you sure that was what was said?
I would be interested to confirm that if you heard correctly.

Perhaps the name was Beattie? Are you sure he didnt say MLA claim they are the best standards in the world.

Maybe Nicky would try to check that out if possible- (only Asking If you could if you have the time)
Interstate tommorrow.
What do you think of the resport Yabby?
As a person who is involved inthe live animal trade does this report
give you some new concern as to how your own animals are treated

Hi all

The way I heard it, the RSPCA is saying that the ALES are "bogus" - I think the report is available at the RSCPA National website, but I got it through the link at FarmOnLine. It's 16 pages. There are reports about it at www.liveexportshame.com from FarmOnLine and the ABC.

I'd be really surprised to hear that anyone in the RSPCA would be saying any different - especially Queensland and especially Michael Beatty, from what I've heard about him.

The report addresses the poor science, research and methodology of the ASEL, and says, quite rightly, that in MLA's report on this from 2006, they make a number of claims, based on poor scientific methofologies, that cannot be substantiated, they are self-regulating, and the infrastructure is not there to enforce them anyway, as we have seen to be the case. The standards are flawed for those reasons. There is no Commonwealth animal protection law by which to enforce them, and state laws are not the right framework for this purpose. They also point out that breaches are virtually unmonitored, and go unpunished because there is no stated penalty/sanction regime.

The report only (as far as I can tell) addresses until the animals are on ships, then it is pointed out that nothing can be done for them (that is, it does not address their fate in importing countries (that's a bit of a brief summary).

Cheers
Nicky

http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/news/campaigns.htm

http://www.rspcaqld.org.au/campaigns/liveexporttrade/

http://qcl.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=48383

RSPCA Australia; People Against Live Exports Exports in conjunction with RSPCA Qld and the ...
http://consciousevolution.com/onshu/view_signatures.php

Click on link below for full farm online story
http://qcl.farmonline.com.au/news_daily.asp?ag_id=48383

Breaking Rural News : LIVESTOCK

RSPCA attacks live-ex industry's "bogus standards"
Monday, 4 February 2008

The RSPCA has accused Australia's live animal export industry of operating under "bogus standards" because they cannot be effectively enforced under current arrangements.
But the claim has been vehemently rejected by Meat and Livestock Australia, which describes the RSPCA attack as "puzzling" given the success of the live export standards in delivering more than 99pc of cattle safely to their destination.

The row was sparked today when RSPCA chief scientist, Dr Bidda Jones, used a media release to claim the live export industry and the Federal Government had been boasting without grounds that Australia's standards for live exports were world-best practice.

However, the RSPCA claims the report failed to identify that ASEL is flawed on a number of levels, including:

But MLA general manager of livestock exports, Scott Hansen, said they were "bewildering statements from the RSPCA" given that the animal welfare group sits on the ASEL committee which draws up the standards.

pale comments on MLA

Perhaps MLA would like to explain their a comment when remarking on assistance to increase the red meat chilled trade bt a co joint venture betwen Muslim buyers and Aussie Farmers= WE couldnt do that- Thats Mark Vailes baby- He personally sells ship loads of live sheep direct from the Australian Government to Kwaite Government.

Ot Ian Ross head of MLA ME might like to explain his comments that there wouldnt be doing anything that might be seen to be in direct compertition to the live trade.

When will MLA treat all business proposals and companies in the same manner as the cruel live exporters

Will Minister Burke and Rudd give this urgent attention?
WE cant have others standing in the way and playing bully over RSPCA= The Australian public will not tolerate it

Goodmorning all

Nicky we hadnt planned on starting the RSPCA MLA debate on the forum until next week.
We wanted to give RSPCA National office time to do their M.R. before hand.
However we have started another thread under RSPCA Heading.

It would be good if it were possible we could support the RSPCA against MLA in a 'united manner.

I will be back and forth interstate over the next few days and would welcome you keeping an eye out over the thread if you feel inclined.
Of course that is completly up to yourself.

I think its important that everybody drop the veggie Verses reopening plants argument and support the RSPCA.

I hope you agree.
Yabby I hope you wil also contribute and we look forward to your response.

Hi PALE - apologies, I must've heard it incorrectly. I had the radio on in the background at work and I was a bit busy at the time.

Morgan
No apology required. You came into the thread with good intentions and we appreciate it.

Hi all
PALE, I'd suggest that you should have documentary evidence of any personal involvement by Mark Vaile and association with the Kuwaiti Government. BTW, Kevin Rudd was never Opposition Spokesperson for Trade, he has always been (shadow) Foreign Affairs.

Also, any assistance to the live export industry should be extended in equal terms to local meat processing - not specifically to the Muslim community. It should be a fair and equitable process and it should also address the issue of state taxes and expenses which the live export trade does not attract (such as payroll tax, untoward local/state occupational health and safety costs etc etc). The live export industry really provides very little in terms of domestic employment, especially when you remove the jobs claimed that would continue to exist without the export factor (Heilbron assessed it at 3,000 in 2000, and the number of people employed an agriculture generally and live exports in particular has declined) New ABS statistics have been posted at www.liveexportshame.com.

Just as I support what other groups do, I support the RSPCA on a case by case/merit basis. If they do their job, I have no problems saying so. I was not the person who started the "veggie" attacks.

Cheers
Nicky

Nicky
Tonight - either A Current Affair or Today tonight food imports. I will look at your link= Thanks

Well Aware of Kevin Rudd’s position at the time had ongoing contact over AWB Enquiry.
He had a duty to inform the public.
Especially given 60 minutes had only days earlier done another report on live exports and he knew there was enormous public interest on both live animal exports and the AWB Enquiry.

It was a missed opportunity. There was a lot of work and investigations carried out. Senior journalist spent some six weeks following on information given.

Kevin Rudd’s office stated they were very short staffed and only had one person covering the whole of the AWB Enquiry.


The Gold coast Bulletin stories the link below and of course sent the information to other animal groups and senators major newspapers etc.

It was not long after this you must remember that Kevin Rudd came out publicly saying he would not be banning live exports- He understood the Industry (unquote)

http://www.livexports.com/cowgun.html

AWB ENQUIRY COWS WITH GUNS
Wendy Lewthwaite a Director of the Halal Kind Meats was born Kempsey. ... cows, with, guns, live, exports, AWB, enquiry, cows, with, guns, animals, ...
www.livexports.com/cowgun.html - 4k - Cached - Similar pages

The person I referred to called frpm ME where he is incharge on MLA.
That is why I refered to Muslims and Halal.

Re Mark Vaile-. I only give what information I am willing to on a public forum and I am sure you will understand that. I sit back and and let people dig their own hole. It’s easier but it never failed me yet.

Re your comments on MLA. There is nothing fair about the MLA Nicky.
I am going to Give Burke a chance to look at a sensible alterative to be made policy.

The eternal optimist I suppose but hope to have support from Muslim Leaders. We can only but try.

Although we know that Landmark is involved with live exports, the media release from Wesfarmers is only specific about fertilizers and grains(?), from my reading. Were your claims disputed at the time about live animals? And it's really all too long ago to be successfully exploited now. The public didn't bother too much with the Cole enquiry - or the Keniry enquiry either, for that matter. That's how the Howard government got away with not implementing half the recommendations. It just had to be seen to be doing something. The MoUs with the various countries (apart from Egypt) only provide for unloading the animals off the ships, but the public doesn't know that - nor the fact that they are in no way binding. It's all about never having another "Cormo Express".

Rudd didn't really have a role or duty to inform the public, but whoever was Minister for Trade, if there was some mileage to be got out of it, probably did. Foreign Affairs is only peripheral to the Trade portfolio, and that's the line that Rudd would take. It was really some time afterwards that he said he supported live exports too.

As for Burke, he is obviously clueless, and will do as he's told. It's a pity that a whole lot of people probably voted Labor on the back of Kerry O'Brien's comments. Kerry will be lucky to get pre-selection at the next election, I'm told.

Nicky

Nick asked

Were your claims disputed at the time about live animals?

Pale Replies
I will answer your questions honestly in the hope you realize I`m Not taking a shot at ANYBODY.

If you mean Wes farmers NO ‘certainly not. They had failed to disclose their interests to share holders which were why we went that way. They were given a certain period of time to disclose their interests in the live trade or their share holders would have been informed by authorities
They dumped their interest and sold to AWB within three weeks.

Naturally we have correspondence.

You need not question anything we post Nicky

Nicky said
The public didn't bother too much with the Cole enquiry
Pale Relies
As was reported- The people may not have been too worried about old Saddam being paid for terrorism but it would have been a different story if live exports were “ever” linked to AWB.

That would have been like lambs to the slaughter and John Howard knew it.

Even 60 minutes didn’t know of the connection...

They were very upset that the information had not been passed on to them because we tried to do the right thing( we thought) by sending it to Animals Australia, Mark Pearson and Andrew.)

This is the problem with people refusing to work united. RSPCA has always tried to point that out. However that’s been done to death so lets not you and I go there again – ok.

Few other media outlets would touch it for obvious reasons however a very senior Journalist put out a story after spending six full weeks checking on information supplied.

It was directly after the 60 minutes report and Downer Vaile Howard and so forth were desperate to keep that information away from the public.

* Then Shadow Trade Minister Rudd had a good idea of the grip and control of the industry because although it would have been a landslide for him and although ALP was floundering desperately to expose the Howard Government he chose to do a Howard .

Nick Said
Rudd didn't really have a role or duty to inform the public, but whoever was Minister for Trade, if there was some mileage to be got out of it, probably did.
Pale replies.
No Nicky he 'was' Shadow Minister for trade at the time and floundering to get Vaile.
We had ongoing contact with his office.

He was probably tempted given 60 minutes had just ran their story but clearly for whatever reason chose not to step on 'some' toes.
"So did the others"

Nick Said
As for Burke, he is obviously clueless, and will do as he's told.

Umm, well he’s fresh and without a complete mind set. Let’s give the man a chance. Nicky Governments look for sensible alternative projects. We need to walk in their united with RSPCA Muslim Leaders AMIEU, Aboriginal Elders, Red meat and Abattoir Association, Farmers {Not all! farmers supportive Exports!)Humane Society AVA AA united.

We need to have a biz plan and feasibility study and it probably would hurt to have a few resps from Saudi Malaysia and China.

Nick Said
It's a pity that a whole lot of people probably voted Labor on the back of Kerry O'Brien's comments. Kerry will be lucky to get pre-selection at the next election, I'm told.
Pale replies
Oh well he might have a great future as a Independent or Party leader down the track.
I think I mentioned to you I received an unexpected call two weeks out of the elections from Kerry’s Advisor. We spoke several times and I haven’t made up my mind yet as to what really was behind it?
I would like to give Kevin Rudd and Tony Burke a fair go.

They understand at least its very much something we have to work united with our trading partners.

That said, whether or not Kevin Rudd has the balls to stand up the the bullying within the Industry that has huge influence over many parties support, donations votes is a different question.

If he 'does' then he will be not make 'a very good Prime Minister' but Christian Leader.

Nicky
Apology

If He does he will not only make 'a very good Prime Minister' but Christian leader.

You Can Judge A Nation by the Way it treats Its Animals

Ghandi

Hi all

From Rudd'a biography:-

"In 1998 Mr Rudd again contested the seat of Griffith and was elected to the Parliament of Australia. He was immediately elected Chair of the Parliamentary Labor Party’s Committee on National Security & Trade and served on a variety of parliamentary committees and taskforces. Following the November 2001 election, Mr Rudd was appointed Shadow Minister for Foreign Affairs, subsequently adding responsibilities for International Security in 2003 and Trade in 2005".

So half right and half wrong. He had no responsibility for Trade until 2005. Burke will do as he is told, and I don't think O'Brien would have.

Rudd and Co. have made it very clear that they have no interest in animal welfare (look at what wimps they proved to be about whaling - it's all about the trade dollar), preferring the soft option of sucking up to the farmers. The only way to bring pressure to bear is through the unions, because the unions make bigger contributions to the ALP than anyone. I've just finished a lengthy report full of statistical data for the AMIEU.

I think they will see PALE as having its own agenda in the form of its business interests with HKM - that may work in your favour, who knows? But while they can sell lots of Australian built Toyota Camrys to the Middle East, they're not going to stop selling them animals, for them to do with as they wish.

The verdict on the "Al Kuwait" case is to be delivered tomorrow - but the magistrate will have been leaned on, and they will get off, of course. The WA government will see to that, and it will prove what a farce animal welfare legislation, and the ASEL, really are in Australia

Nicky

Nicky

*Thanks for sharing re the case. It would be a well deserved win for AA and a huge shot in the arm for justice and Animal Welfare.

RE: I remember he was Shadow for Downer and yes Trade too. It was his cap for Trade Minister as well as Downers Shadow we requested he act under.
Regardless he was the man. Sorry splitting hairs
I accept what you are saying. - Thank you

Nicky
Rudd and Co. have made it very clear that they have no interest in animal welfare (look at what wimps they proved to be about whaling –

Pale
They have done more about Whaling than Howard.
Yes it’s about the trade dollar but he’s not really sucking up to farmers either. He’s sucking up to China and Asia so it’s vital we have them supporting whatever we put in front of him.

Nicky
The only way to bring pressure to bear is through the unions, because the unions make bigger contributions to the ALP than anyone. I've just finished a lengthy report full of statistical data for the AMIEU.

Pale
Umm, but they are being misinformed- told tall stories about migrant abuse and so forth.

Nicky
I think they will see PALE as having its own agenda in the form of its business interests with HKM - that may work in your favor, who knows? But while they can sell lots of Australian built Toyota Camrys to the Middle East, they're not going to stop selling them animals, for them to do with as they wish.

Pale

Umm, No ‘ they are not going to stop selling them live but ‘others’ have a great interest to take over the meat trade.

It’s no different to living here really. There’s always the bloke down the road that wants to be the biggest car sales yard etc

Farmers Federation MLA Live Coupe Austrade kept that a secret ‘protecting’ the live trade industry in the past under Howard Vaile Downer.

MLA Austrade farmer’s federation PROTECTS the Live Shipping exporters with their lives!

OPEN Enquiry into MLA required.

'They have done more about Whaling than Howard."

False

They have sent the campaign to stop whaling backwards. Although HSI won their court case, the australian government refused to serve the papers on Japan. They have refuse also to hand over their video evidence (to use in court) to prove that Japan has broken any laws.

Its not about trade so much as about fear that australia's ownership of antartic waters will be challenged and that the whale sactuary is not recognised by all countries.

It is rumoured that the a large percentage of the kill from last year still sits in freezers as the Japanese people dont want whaling to continue. Seems its more about not losing face.

PF

http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2008/02/07/2156845.htm

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?discussion=1418&page=0

Nicky
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/02/08/2158299.htm?site=wa

Comment= this goes a long way to prove the Case of RSPCA against MLA those Laws is unenforceable:

= A BRILLIANT step forward with undisputable evidence.

Perhaps the Magistrate saw it that way too.

This is better than the live exporters getting off with a fine.

I must Say Nicky I a becoming very impressed with AA.

What a clever way to go about evidence of the very thing RSPCA are saying.

"Well Done! Animals Australia, love it.

Hi all
It proves that there won't ever be any justice for the animals within the present legislative framework. In fact, the magistrate, Catherine Crawford (can't imagine why it took her four years to arrive at the conclusion she should just "pass the buck", perhaps she doesn't think very fast) found the cruelty charges under the WA legislation proven beyond a reasonable doubt before deferring to Commonwealth law. It certainly does prove the assertions in the RSPCA report to be absolutely right. None of this, however, helps the animals at the mercy of these offenders.

Such is the influence of this industry, and its outlandish claims. Jodie Thompson (that unbiased one...), who also writes for Countryman in WA, claimed fatuously in the West Australian today that this trade is worth $1.8 billion - according to the 2007 official ABS Year book, the 2005-2006 value of the live sheep and cattle trade was $649,812,000. That's a long way short of 1.8 billion - about 1.2 billion short to be exact.

You have to wonder if Crawford was "leaned on".

Given that Animals Australia's subsequent investigations have revealed the same cruelty covered in sections of this case, it will be interesting to see what the next move is. They have put so much into this, it's unlikely that they will let it end here.

Cheers
Nicky
PS - Sending the Ocean Viking to film what the Japanese whalers are doing is hardly a serious protest by the Australian government. When the Federal Court ruled that the activities were illegal, representatives from that company should have been arrested. Better still, send in the navy to sink the ships - they have no problems sending in the navy to deal with recalcitrant refugees of the human variety.

Nicky said

It certainly does prove the assertions in the RSPCA report to be absolutely right. None of this, however, helps the animals at the mercy of these offenders.

pale reponds

Yes it does. If you combine the RSPCA of MLA along with the calls for An inderpendant Enquiry into MLA from the Abattoir Association and Animals Australia`s.
Clever move to get this as a court finding.

Pales continues also for calls to Kevin Rudd to hold an enquiryinto MLA and fund the set aside AWB Enquiry allowing it to complete its job

Well he knows the whole of Animal Welfare Laws are just a front and people will not put up with it any longer.

Nicky
Contiuned from 7th 8th

We need a new structure with fresh faces and no rates mate’s deals and favors. They claimed they ‘couldn’t continue with the AWB enquiry- Lack of funds he he he. It’s very important that is picked up by the Rudd Government. – There’s a direct trail.

I am hopeful Rudd will make it a more even field and the new Ministers for Foreign Affairs and Trade will put that on the table along with other discussions when representing this country.

From Your comment regarding Government and HKM-
They know the HKM Agenda and they know it’s for Animal Welfare. Nicky I could NEVER personally take one read cent of abattoir money.
However yes its comong from a totally different angle which is the industry itself.
Just Halal alone is a trillion of dollar Industry and growing very fast.
HKM is a program and Muslims will donate a agreed percentage back into Animal Welfare.

I want to know when I am gone Animal Welfare groups will have able funds and direct input allowing them to also improve animal welfare.

However remember each will have a Halal Vegetable farm and they were KEEN to open their Halal veggie fast food stores in comp with Hungry Jacks etc.
I am expecting those to give a ‘better return eventually.



(Hope you followed the last of this post. Just bits from the other evening.)