I guess it's time we started stoning people who blatantly refuse to observe the Sabbath.

Another badly constructed attempt at vilification, dressed up as a serious debate.

kactuz: "Turnright, stop making silly excuses for the inexcusable. Insist that Muslims live by the same moral standards we do. Insist that they apply these standards to their religion."

Hmm, I seem to recall saying "Overall however, I'm inclined to believe you need to follow the laws that Australians have agreed on - and by and large, those are Australian laws."

Pretty clear, I thought. I just don't subscribe to the view that muslims have to subscribe to the most extreme tenets of the religion.

Sure, those tenets are there. But it's funny how so many anti-muslim posters keep telling Muslims they have to follow such barbaric practices or they're not real muslims. From where I'm sitting, muslims can follow their religion however they damn well want, and for those of us who have actually gone overseas and visited the more liberal muslim societies, such as parts of Indonesia, we see how paranoid and stupid these visions of Islam really are.

Yes, these elements exist - but they don't have to be the norm. What really frustrates me, is so many of those who are violently opposed to these extreme aspects of Islam are actually projecting that onto the more liberal muslims. That really does annoy me, and many of the posters here are doing it right now. In insisting this is what muslims are like, you're forcing them into a situation where instead of living a reasonable faith, they have to reject it entirely or adopt an extreme option.
It's like telling Christians they have to agree to shun gays or get out of the faith. It's unresaonable, ignorant and damaging.

TRTL, it doesn't suit the project of Islamophobia for moderate, reasonable Muslims to exist.

The paranoid 'whack-a-Mozzie' crew need to have the Muslim bogeyman depicted as extremely as possible, otherwise they'd just look even more stupidly hateful than they do now, if that's possible.

Of course, that's why the troll who started this thread began it.

CJ and TurnRight

No, no, no. You don't have to kill torture or rape to be a real Muslim. Most Muslims are not extremists. There are plenty of good Muslims that would never do anything like that. I have never said otherwise. Most Muslim are people like us... but

The problem is that the good Muslims, the ones that are good people, are also the ones that love and respect Mohammad and the Quran. Am I wrong? Have you ever asked a Muslim about their dear prophet? Have you ever asked them to explain his actions in the traditions?

My point is that you cannot count upon the 'good' Muslims to stand up for your rights, particularly when Muslims are in control.

Or let me put it this way, if there are so many good Muslims, why is there so much hate, oppression and persecution in Islamic societies? Where are all the good Muslims when you need them? Why don't the good Muslims in Egypt stand up against the treatment of the copts or the mass sexual attacks in Cairo? Why don't the good Muslims in
Arabia take a stand against the vile laws in that country. Why don't good Muslims in Pakistan, Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia, Iran take a stand against the apostasy laws and other discriminatory policies? Why don't the good Muslims in Iran stop the religious police from beating women in the streets when a few hairs were showing? Why didn't the good Muslims in Afhganistan stop the Tabliban from shooting women in football stadiums?

I think that is a reasonable position.

After much thought I decided that there may be many Muslims that do good things and say cute words (as most in the West do), but they cannot be trusted unless they are honest about matters of life, liberty and human rights. Unfortunately, few Muslim put these values above those of their religion, and that is why things never change. Moderate Muslims make excuses and say pretty words, radical Muslims preach hate and kill. Then both groups go back to the mosque to pray together.

kactuz

Yo Oz
You asked for my opinion

Well judging by your behaviour on this thread.

Let’s start with the heading ok. It’s always a good place to start.

Islamic Values Or - Australian Governments concern.

That’s where your first mistake. It’s Australia First.

Anything less is a “complete insult to all Australians.”

You’re rude by opening a thread and then just running off.

You the extreme to the point of being a person I don’t think ought to be here. Perhaps your not.

If your not please stay where you are.

You got one thing right- Australian Government concern.

If they are not concerned then they should be.

I am an average Aussie. Give a person a fair go.

It’s our way in this beautiful country.

We worked with AFIC the So called Muslim leaders for almost five years exclusively.

Why don’t you gather up all your buddies and tell them pale is now going public with our findings on your honour and integrity.

I am not sure if those two words exist it the Koran I must admit.

Don’t get me wrong I still say there are some nice Muslim people living in Australia- just not the ones we have been dealing with.

As far as making heroes of these gutless wonders who hide out like dingos plotting to kill innocent members of the public in all countries they are nothing but lilly livid cowards.

Getting back to the point Oz?

I intend to open a tell all honest dinky die thread to expose the lies rubbish mind games deceit down right dishonesty we have "personally experienced."

You run off now Oz wont you and tell Ikebal the truth will be reported to the Australian People.

By the way as a friend reminded me on this forum last night.

Dog is just God spelled backwards

Get over it.

Anytime, anywhere any place you would like to have a sensible debate on the Koran and the bible you know where to find me.
Literally.
That’s the difference with Australians –‘ They are not cowards!”

Whilst I think you have to follow Australian laws PALE, I do get tired of all the people saying you have to be Australian first and a Muslim second.

I know plenty of people who would consider themselves to be christians first.