When Muslims want to have their Islamic values, some of the Australians misunderstand or pretend to misunderstand and say: "Muslims want to replace Sharia Law instead of Australian Law".

Replacing Sharia Law in the place of current Australian law will be possible only when Muslims are in the majority of the Australian society. So if one day Muslims will be the majority it might take place, something that from now Aussies are worry about it.

The issue now is not about making Sharia Law as the legal Law, it's about following Sharia Law at the same time that we respect the Australian Law (to respect the majority of the country we are living in), ok that's fine, but the problem, the serious question is that:
What should Muslims do if sometimes they face conflict between these two Laws and they have to choose only one option? What should Muslims do if they have only one choice when they face a rule that they must follow it by law but it's a sin by Sharia Law? Should they follow Sharia Law or the opposite of that? If they ignore Sharia law they feel guilty because is sin , if they ignore Australian law they feel guilty because is crime to break the law.

This is a problem for Muslims, also a serious concern for Australian government. I think both sides should find a solution for that to make both happy otherwise the problems will be more in the fuure.

We as Muslims want to respect to the Australian law, but at the same time we won't ignore our Sharia Law, we can't close the Quran and it's rules just because of respect to the majority. So I think Muslims and the Australian government should find a solution for this.

I appreciate for your answer or solution, but please do not suggest Muslims to leave Australia. That is not a democratic solution for Australia, some of them have been born here in Australia, where do you want them to go?

Please do not insult the religion if you comment here. Thanks.

It would be easier to comment if you gave some examples of the conflicting laws.

From where I am standing you had better respect Australian law first you wont get any sympathy from me if you try and hide behind sharia law when trying to defend your actions.

An important issue.

>>We as Muslims want to respect to the Australian law, but at the same time we won't ignore our Sharia Law, we can't close the Quran and it's rules just because of respect to the majority.<<

The law of the land is the final arbiter here. That is why we have a parliament, elections and a legal system. And until and unless we decide to change this, that is how we decide what is legal and what is not.

Any conflict between a specific community's beliefs and the law as it stands has to be resolved within that community. It cannot be the responsibility of the citizenry at large to anticipate the needs of every faction, group, or religion.

Over a period of time, changes to the law, where it does not cut across the rights of others, might occur. In the UK, for example, the government introduced a law that required motorcyclists to wear crash helmets. After some consideration, they exempted turbanned Sikhs - who had objected on religious grounds - on the understanding that they took personal responsibility for any injuries that were caused by its absence.

This is the way it works. It is a mistake to term it an issue of values, it is simply a matter of the law of the land.

Do you have any specific examples of where your religion finds itself in conflict with Australian law?

Aunti
Could you give a couple of examples where the Koran clashes with The Australian Laws please.

Just everyday ones you have have experienced or heard about?
After saying that the anwser is a very simply one.
There is only one thing I know of that everybody agrees on.
Thats is we can blame the Australian Government and other Fovernments for putting Muslim people and Australian people in such a difficult position.

Yes it is easy to see how this could cause much heartache for many on both sides of the fence.
In hindsite we must ask ourselves if Paul Keating really knew what he was doing.
That aside we really need to find the right answer so Muslim people thinking of coming to Australia are not put in a position of being unable to settle and make this beatuiful home land their home also.

Perhaps an Education programe provided to them before they come to Australia so they can be fully informed and make a choice armed with that information as to if they still wish to come.



Thanks Aunti- insteresting.

This issue was raised in the Muslim Forum by Aunti:

http://forums.muslimvillage.net/lofiversion/index.php/t36886.html

Thanks for the heads-up, katie0.

Aunti: "What should Muslims do if sometimes they face conflict between these two Laws and they have to choose only one option?"

As Pericles suggested, the only option under Australian law is to follow the law of the land rather than religious law. Otherwise, you have the options of contravening the law and risking prosecution and/or arrest, or going somewhere where Sharia law is in force.

That's the situation in Australia now and for the forseeable future.

Having read the 'Muslim Village' discussion, I too would appreciate it if you state explicitly which aspects of Sharia law you find to be so incompatible with Australian law? It certainly wasn't very clear in that discussion.

Aunti

Australians are very accustomed to accepting immigrants from all over the world.

During the Gold Rush era in the 19th century, thousands emigrated to Australia. Just in 1851 alone, 370,000 people arrived from Eastern and Western Europe and in 1852, some 40,000 Chinese arrived to try their luck. Some Muslims also arrived, during the '30s and '40s. I recall having joyful rides on their camels.

Apart from a few low-key spats, everyone appeared to settle in well and the varying religious practices did not conflict with Australian laws.

The essentials of a democracy are: The majority rules, coupled with individual and minority rights and the rule of law.

If Sharia law conflicts with the Australia's rule of law, then you will need to make some adjustments.

Australia should not be required to breach or adjust their existing rules of law to favour just one specific religion. That is not democratic.

Imagine what all the other religions would have to say about that!

Want my advice,
There is no question; you follow Australian Law or
LEAVE - END OF STORY

How about we take the case of the Kebab Shop owner whose wife may or may not have been cheating on him?

Does he take the way of Australian law and walk away from it as a lesson learnt?

No he slits her throat Islamic style out back of the KEBAB shop..

Is this the type of laws you refer to that makes you feel guilty?

Yeh righto plenty of Australians have been found guilty of putting off thier partners following adultery however the honour killing of the adulterous wife is an Islamic pastime.

Aunti old mate you come here and I suspect you came here this generation from the sound of your post. No offence intended

If you have any problem with our laws, the first thing you should do is be greatful that we have allowed you to come here and live in freedom free from oppression. Our laws are number one, your religion comes second abide by that and you can get down to the business of living.

Mate get on the jam roll, join john howards surf team, fire up the barbie and crack a tinny. You blokes take it all a bit too serious

Please do not invite us to comment, then tell us what we can and can not say.
This country has opened its doors to people from all over the world, in most cases we benefited more than our migrants.
Just a few from your religion, born here or not are telling us how to live and I find it ugly.
See the idiot in his latest lunch break from deep in that cave?
America must embrace Islam?
We would be better all of us, understanding the fable that is religion stands in the way of man becoming one people.

Well said Belly.. exactly.. telling us we cannot or should not 'insult' the religion is SHARIA LAW.. and I won't put up with that :)

In fact..that specific thing is a prime reason for the tone of many of my comments in other places. Just imagine Braveheart.. when he yelled 'but they'll never take our freeeeedom'...yep..thats how I feel too.

Let the answer to this issue be from Muslim village first.

Why would the government even consider your proposal when Muslims make up such a small percentage of the population. Do you seriously expect the Australian people to allow a system to come to bear that makes them second rate citizens in their own country?
Its like me moving to another country and saying "Hey my mates and I arent able to practive X law and Y law because you wont let us, so you better change the laws or there is going to be trouble down the track" now there is only a few of us in this country yet we expect the government to bend over for a minority whilst simultaneously shafting its own population for the sake of a minority.(RUFIO)

Well gee.. If BOZO had said something like this Pericles and CJ would be all over me like the worst rash I ever had and call me 'paranoid/obsessed' :)

Lets focus on that little phrase "or there'll be trouble down the track"..yes..he mentioned that as a hyperthetical... granted..but see what Othman says.

"Secondly, the Australian establishment is firmly allied with the enemies of Allah and Islam. We would be wasting our time working with them in this regard" (OTHMAN)

Well.. again..if I'd said this.. u know the rest.
But here is a clear and unmistakable declaration:

"Non Muslim Australians are firmly allied with the enemies of Islam"

which presumably means 'we' are also enemies of Islam.

Now aunti.. at about this moment, the insults are likely to fly thick and fast.. calling us 'ENEMIES' is not a way to win friends and influence people. Be thankful Jesus said "Love" your enemies....

Boazy, I see you're up to your usual tricks - posting remarks from another forum as if they represent what the originator of this thread has asked. If you have issues with comments posted in another forum by people who aren't members of this forum, why don't you take them up with those people in the forum where they actually participate?

Aunti has asked what appears to be a legitimate question for fundamenalist Muslims. Most people who have responded thus far in this thread have answered the question politely and clearly, to the effect that in Australia, where there are conflicts between the law of the land and religious laws, it is the law of the land that prevails. It's quite simple, really.

However, it seems that Boazy is incapable of engaging in a conversation with those who don't share his crackpot beliefs without reverting to rabid form.

Boazy, this thread isn't about you and what you believe, nor is it about what you think others might think about you and your delusions.

I'm genuinely interested to hear from Aunti which aspects of Sharia law are incompatible with Australian law, and why this is apparently a problem for some Australian Muslims. I'd like to hear it from a Muslim, rather than from an avowedly Islamophobic Christian fundamentalist, thanks.

Islam has more problems than anyone needs. The image of Islam is that of a bleak uncompromising religion controlled by fanatics. I could not imagine Sharia law being compatible with any modern society. The societies, which practice Sharia law, are not attractive places and seem designed to keep the faithful in poverty. Reciting the Koran in Arabic is made more rewarding than science or engineering.

Aunti Antiterrorism
I would also like to hear in which ways Sharia law is not compatable with Australian law.

I'm fascinated that no-one so far has raised the issue of civil disobedience. I think it is one of the tenets of our society that, at least in the civil area, you don't have to abide by a law, if you have a conflict of concience, but you do need to wear the consequences of your disobedience.

So, I have no problem with street marches where marchers are arrested for non-violent behaviour. There was a lot of that in Queensland in the days of the street march legislation.

There seems to be a consensus here that we are missing some vital information.

Is there a conflict, or is this just another attempt to stir up the usual suspects to have a good rant?

If someone doesn't come to the party pretty soon and give us a good example of a conflict between Australian and Sharia law, we might have to conclude that the topic is simply an excuse for a troll.

Pity, it could have been a useful thread.

Perilous..it is and will be a useful threat.. oops..thread :)

and agreed.. as soon as we have the needed specific information.. it will be more useful.

CJ.. there you go a-gain.. 'another pin in your boaz doll in the dark room with all my 3500 posts pasted on the walls'.. :) I warned you.. police come and visit people who do that mate err.. you don't have any exploding letter skills do you ? Hope not.

I don't argue these points on those forums because they actually implement Sharia law there.. they ban people who seem to insult the religion in the slightest way.. even to ask a difficult question about Mohammad is to be banned. Result.. Kactuz.. me, Coach..others.. speak freely where we can. "Here".

PROBLEM. One issue not addressed yet also, is that while some people say "Only if Muslims are a majority" would Sharia law be introduced.
NOOOOOooooo democracies don't work like that. What REALLY happens is this.

1/ Interest groups target marginal seats.
2/ If they can gain balance of power, they will make 'deals' with the incumbents to advance their own cultural religious agenda.

So, it would only take a close election, where ONE seat might make the difference between side A or side B taking power..and the people holding the real power...in that marginal seat.. can pretty much dictate the terms of their support.

If this was NOT the case...why would PAUL KEATING prevent the deportation of a POLYGAMOUS Sheikh Hilali who is/was blatantly breaking Australian law?...during an important election period.

GRAHAM Y civil disobedience to advance Sharia law IS an issue in UK now.

why you guys want ONE example? Most of cases are in conflict with Shariaw law. If you open a Shariah law and start reading , from page 1 to the end you will find at least one rule a page which is in conflict.
I think people who don't have knowledge about Islam should not join this thread and comment. I don't have any knowledge about engineering and if I see any thread about that I will keep my mouth shut.
Regards

Ali_OZ,
Tell me why because I just need to know.

Why Oh Why would you want to come to a country that conflicts

with every page of your archaic sharia laws?
If not to subjugate us to dimmitude and claw back the caliphate.

Islamic values have caused nothing but terror wherever they are implemented. Women are virtual slaves, infidels are lower than dogs and war is a given in Islamic societies.

With that said western democracies and thier values enjoy the highest standards of living on the planet and thier citizens are generally free to go about thier business no matter what some will say here as they are of the spoilt and reckless in our society and should be taken as such.

Would it not be more beneficial to leave sharia in the past where it belongs and to embrace the positive parts of the west for your childrens sake. Does not Islam love its children the way we love our children, if it does it needs to make a few urgent changes.

Sooner or later the west will run out of patience.

Would those who find conflict with Australian laws please identify one.
For instance what is the prescribed punishment for adultery under shari'ah?
What is the prescribed punishment for the act of homosexuality under shari'ah?
What is the status of a woman under shari'ah?
Who has custody [ownership] of the children in the case of divorce under shari'ah?

Doesn't work like that, Al.

>>why you guys want ONE example? Most of cases are in conflict with Shariaw law.<<

The enquiry was made in all good faith, by people who are puzzled that there is a problem at all, and are anxious - at least, I'm anxious - to find out more. If there are, as you say, so many examples, why on earth is it difficult to pick one?

>>I think people who don't have knowledge about Islam should not join this thread and comment<<

Now that is simply dumb.

Given that we are in a secular democracy, and a question has been posed by someone interested in the impact of that secular democracy on a particular religion, why should it be incumbent upon them to research said religion?

Surely, the responsibility is on the person who generates the query to provide everyone else with some idea of the basis of the concern. Otherwise it's like going to a GP and asking advice on dentistry. Sure, he'll probably be able to offer an opinion if you explain the problem clearly enough. But it is not reasonable to ask him to spend the next five years qualifying as a dentist, simply because you can't be bothered to tell him what's hurting.

>>I don't have any knowledge about engineering and if I see any thread about that I will keep my mouth shut<<

But if you were halfway across a bridge when it collapsed under you, wouldn't you be inclined to pose the odd question to those who do have a knowledge of engineering?

This is actually a key question, and deserves better treatment that you are giving it here, Al.

Otherwise, all you will get is people who want to tell you how nasty your religion is - and we have plenty of those, as you well know.

Aunti

Please do not tell me what I can and cannot say. We call this freedom of speech. It is part of Western culture and heritage. I will respect you when you respect me. OK?.

Your comment about not “insulting” is typical of the problems in Islamic societies. No insulting means no critical thought, no freedom of conscience, no political freedom, no economic liberty and no human rights. It is a chain and all links must be respected.

Be aware that I do not insult religions. I only tell the truth. Truth is not an insult. If I say the Quran is full of hate and violence, that is not an insult. It is a fact. If I say that Mohammad attacked, murdered, plundered, tortured, enslaved, raped and beat his wife, that is not an insult. If you don’t like these facts, please take the matter up with Muslim, Abu Dawud, Bukhari, Hisham, Kathir, Tabari, etc… Do you recognize those names?

If you have any doubts about these facts, I will provide links to Islamic texts.

Auntie, have you actually read the Quran and hadith? Have you perhaps noticed anything that may offend non-Muslims? Do you think that people who criticize Islam (or insult it, as you say) should be treated like it says in Sura 5:33–34? (In case you don’t know: “The punishment for those who wage war against God and His Prophet, and perpetrate disorders in the land, is to kill or hang them, or have a hand on one side and a foot on the other cut off, or banish them from the land. Such is their disgrace in the world, and in the Hereafter their doom shall be dreadful”.

Kind words, those. Be honest about your feelings and thoughts, and be brutally tortured to death by a god that claims to me merciful. I can list over a dozen people here that qualify for this treatment. OK with you?

One last thing, Auntie - I suggest you change your name. You cannot be against terror and for Mohammad.

Kactuz

kactuz, I'm going to have to disagree.

You state: "Your comment about not “insulting” is typical of the problems in Islamic societies. No insulting means no critical thought, no freedom of conscience, no political freedom, no economic liberty and no human rights."

Insulting is a broad scale. Take SCOTTY's uninformed commentary about throat slitting. Whilst in the extremities this may occur, it's hardly a common Islamic practice a quick read of his post would have you believe - so I'd consider it insulting. As I think, Christians would be insulted if you said their faith was just about harassing gays and shooting doctors who perform abortions.

Those who hate Islam love to trawl out the extreme examples and use it to justify their hatred.

I've no love of extreme islam and I'd hate to see sharia law instituted in Australia.
I think GrahamY makes an interesting point as well - ultimately our decisions regarding law come down to conscience anyway. Most people speed because they don't believe it's wrong - there's no victim there. Ultimately I think that's what it comes down to - I lean to the side of the victims. If there was a case of a Muslim following Sharia law over Australian law but it wasn't hurting anyone, I wouldn't have a problem with it - but this is unlikely, because ourlaws, by and large are largely there to protect people - at least, the just ones are. Sometimes laws aren't just - in which case, it's a much more gray area.

Overall however, I'm inclined to believe you need to follow the laws that Australians have agreed on - and by and large, those are Australian laws.

Though I certainly think you can critically discuss things without insulting them, and there is a difference there kactuz - I think you're a little guilty of picking the extremities of debate - in this case, people who are quick to adopt a victim mentality - and extend it to the wider debate.

You might also note that the Islamic countries are the poor countries of the earth, third world poor, which tells me that wherever the Koran is, God simply doesnt bless as He does in other lands. Many christians see allah and mohammed as works of the fallen angelic realm. The fruits of the religion are so that way. Same with the Roman Catholic church. Where it is the dominant power, the people are poor and bound to their religious overseers. Yet look at the great western countries where the Holy Bible has settled into the earth and sprouted great things. Gods Blessing are upon them. Medical, education, commerce and trade are tremendous. They have the power... and they have the freedom of speech and the great law systems that uphold the oppressed. We had better not lose this wonderful God-Given stuff by giving way to oppressive religious systems that buck Gods Grace and Flow.

Yes I can tell people what to say and what not to say. I can SAY IT, why? because SYING THAT is for the freedom of speech that you are talking about. If we have freedom of speech I can say that. But the other member who says in Islam woman is lower than dog, that is against the rules and conditions of this forum, I believe the adminstrator should judge and make decision whether that member is permitted to continue or to be banned.

You guys better to read the rules of this forum one more time.

So I answer POLITELY that if you think woman in Islam is lower than dog , I believe that woman in western culture is lower than the high level that deserve to have. Woman should not let the western culture to make her as a DOLL just for the SHOW and ENJOY. The level of human being should not come down to the status of a DOLL.

From where I sit Islam is extreme. We dont here about half of what extreme Islam gets up to because it isnt in the multu culti spectrum that is allowed in the news. Female Circumcision, cutting off limbs, honor killings over 400 in Europe last year alone, rape of infidel women increasing every year in Europe, bombings, Darfur, Iran Iraq, 9/11, spain, Bali, Egypt Hezzbollah, Hamas, my mate was stabbed in kebab shop in Manly, Bilal Skaff, Somalia, East Timor, West Papua, Palestine--
These and many many more were all committed by Islam. Its on the nose.
Aunti next time your walking around and you get those funny looks by strangers, yeh they are suspicious of you, when you start condemning and I meen all of moderate Islam says enough maybe you will gain our trust. Till then dont ask a stupid question as to what you should do regarding our laws. You would have signed somthing on the way in telling you plain and simple whats required of you, leave it behind or get out because we dont want you if you cant respect our ways.

Islams basis is rooted in shame where as christian based societies
are bedevilled by guilt. The more you percieve to have the greater the guilt, likewise the less of life you grasp in Islam the greater the shame. Shame leads to persecution, anger and violence while guilt leads to reparations and self loathing, fodder for the left.

No Tabouleah

Philo, I think you raise some interesting potential conflicts. If there is a strict Sharia law which says that homosexuals and adulterers should be stoned, then it is obviously incompatible with not just Australian law, but that species of natural law called Universal Human Rights. So, in my view there would be no legimitate right to civil disobedience.

However, the issue in a sense doesn't arise with custody of children. Or normal marriage arrangements. Our law doesn't prescribe who will have custody etc. unless you arrive before the courts, in which case they will make a decision. So consenting parties who wanted to observe Sharia in this situation would not face any issues.

Polygamy is an issue where there is a conflict, and I would have some sympathy with someone of the Islamic faith who wanted to practice polygamy and did so. I can find a rational reason why our law should forbid it. Or why marriage should be a state licence at all.

As someone noted there are some Sharia law courts in Canada. I'm interested to know whether there are different types of Sharia. Perhaps what is Sharia in Saudi Arabia is not Sharia in Canada.

It seems to me that we are burdened with problems with moslem immigrants
that no other group have presented.
The Chinese have a much greater different culture than those from moslem
countries, yet there are far fewer problems with Chinese/Australian
cultural or religious differences.

To sum up why should we be bothered with all this trouble ?
We should immediately stop moslem immigration and try to encourage the
rest to leave.
I can hear the PC protests and abuse now, so don't bother.

I guess it's par for the course that the thread gets hijacked by the whack-a-mozzie brigade in such impressive numbers. Must give all you Chicken Littles a nice warm feeling, cackling away at each other like fishwives. Not very edifying, though.

Just look at you all.

Scotty: "Islamic values have caused nothing but terror wherever they are implemented. Women are virtual slaves, infidels are lower than dogs and war is a given in Islamic societies."

kactuz: "Truth is not an insult. If I say the Quran is full of hate and violence, that is not an insult. It is a fact. If I say that Mohammad attacked, murdered, plundered, tortured, enslaved, raped and beat his wife, that is not an insult."

Gibo: "You might also note that the Islamic countries are the poor countries of the earth, third world poor, which tells me that wherever the Koran is, God simply doesnt bless as He does in other lands. Many christians see allah and mohammed as works of the fallen angelic realm."

(I was particularly impressed with the logic, Gibo. I guess that makes Arkansas a pretty unblessed place too, right?)

Scotty (again): "From where I sit Islam is extreme. We dont here about half of what extreme Islam gets up to because it isnt in the multu culti spectrum that is allowed in the news. Female Circumcision, cutting off limbs, honor killings over 400 in Europe last year alone, rape of infidel women increasing every year in Europe, bombings, Darfur, Iran Iraq, 9/11, spain, Bali, Egypt Hezzbollah, Hamas, my mate was stabbed in kebab shop in Manly, Bilal Skaff, Somalia, East Timor, West Papua, Palestine"

Sorry to hear about your mate in Manly, Scotty. In a kebab shop, too. Puts it all into perspective, doesn't it.

It must be sad, living in such fear.

And Bazz: We should immediately stop moslem immigration and try to encourage the rest to leave.

Lovely solution Bazz. Thank you for sharing.

Well Pericles you have quoted us all and thats all.

Im from the bush we're a practical lot out here, if somthing gives us trouble we fix it or at least try. I hear posts from city type leftists like yourself ( oh Im sure you had some uncle that lived out back of Burke and you have ties in the bush) about xenophobia, islamaphobia and so on to denigrate the little guy, the average guy. All very smug in your nice suburb and government job and big super payout waiting. A lot is going wrong in this country and you guys dont want to fix it. If muslims are a problem, simple dont bring anymore. Crimes out of control, simple corporal and capital punishment. The world is hardening around us we must be tougher to deal with it.

Thanks God that at least Pericles although has a different idea with me but is fair and can realise what other members comment here.
Thank you Pericles.

If you guys say your idea that Islam has violence or something like that IS NOT INSULT. You can say your idea. INSULTING means to use rude words and to swear, like what SCOTTY insulted Islam.

SCOTTY will be banned because has done something against the rules of this forum.

We expect the authority of this forum to investigate about his comment and make decision. We have reported the matter to the admin of forum and we will report it to higher Australian authority if the justice won't be done for SCOTTY.
You know better than me that there is freedom of speech in Australia but there is also a very STRONG LAW here.
We will not give up till justice to be done. If SCOTTY has sweared and insulted and break the rules of forum so he must be banned.

Philo and Graham
As I said , it is not fair to comment about a subject if we don't have knowledge. Philo says about stoning, you know why? because he has heard it from others, that is not enogh, that is not knowledge, Philo please go and research about Quran then comment about stoning, in whole Quran there IS NOT ANYTHING mentioned about STONING as punishment. After prophet Mohammad some Muslims try to add few things to the law, we only can consider Quran as 100% accountable and trustable source for Shariah Law, not any Hadith which its sure is from prophet or not.
lokks like I here comment that Juses in the Bible has said this and that(while he has not), so it is not fair, it will be accusing Christianity and accusing Jesus. So one more time I ask you guys PLEASE DO NOT COMMENT ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU DON'T HAVE KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IT.
God bless all of us and guide us to the right way. Amen.

Pericles- said

someone doesn't come to the party pretty soon and give us a good example of a conflict between Australian and Sharia law, we might have to conclude that the topic is simply an excuse for a troll.

Pity, it could have been a useful thread.
Posted by Pericles, Tuesday, 11 September 2007 9:20:19 AM
PALE replies
There you go Pericles you have got your first example on this thread.
Perhaps you could demostrate what you feel would be a fair response.
Oz
Sorry been busy.

I will read the thread in the moring and post comment.
Blessings to all
x except Philo he he he

Sorry couldn`t resist

People Against Live Exports

I missed you :) lol where have you been? This thread needs your comment. Please read the comment of SCOTTY , that part that he has broken the rules of the forum.

I believe that the authorities of this site will be fair and they will not take SCOTTY's side just because SCOTTY is Non Muslim and the complaint maker is Muslim.

We expect anything that will be fair according to the rules of the forum, and according to the law.

The question is the meaning of insult. I am not talking about gratuitous insensitivity with the purpose of offending.

For Muslims, anything that criticizes Islam is insulting. Anything they don’t like is an insult.

If you say Mohammad was a wife-beater, it is an insult http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/004.smt.html#004.2127

If you say that he raided, plundered, enslaved and raped, it is an insult
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html#019.4321

If you say he brutally tortured, it is an insult (verse 261)
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html

Things I say are considered “insults” by Muslims. No, they are facts. I do not let them play word games.

The fact is that Muslims are never honest about Islam. Believe me, I know. It is easier for them to pretend than face the reality they fear. Blame others, always, they do.

The fact is that whereever Islam dominates, basic freedoms, equality and human rights are restricted. Non-Muslims, women, Jews, gays are second-class citizens or dead. This fact alone should be enough to make one suspicious of Islam and anything a Muslim says.

These are not “extreme examples”. Even if Mohammad committed only one rape or murder, well, guess what that means. Remember that for Muslims, Mohammad is the great moral example to emulate. Remember the accounts of hate, violence, murder, torture, lies, deceit, rape, enslavement he did, written in the hadiths. Do the math.

Turnright, stop making silly excuses for the inexcusable. Insist that Muslims live by the same moral standards we do. Insist that they apply these standards to their religion.

ALJAZEERA_OZ, I don’t think women are lower than dogs. Mohammad, however, said they are deficient in intelligence, most people in hell are women, that women are not worthy to lick the pus of men’s bodies. This may explain the status of women in Islamic societies. Maybe.

Muslims only reject the hadiths when it is convenient for them, usually when hearing things they don’t like. Otherwise they are the authentic traditions of their dear prophet. Do a search on Internet and see for yourself. This is just another excuse.

Notice the calls for censorship here. Once again we see why Islam never changes.

Kactuz

Oz

I have only come in now because I hear your upset.

For now just quickly lets talk about Scotty.

It would appear to me Scottys a pretty average counrty old school bloke.
The sort you wouldnt mind going fishing with or having a cold one at the local.
Hes picked up on something that has been said to us- by somebody refering to us as Infidels.
I will post you very soon and hopefuuly we can get back to the point.
Hes offended by this and rightfully so.
Hes protesting and feeling insulted.

You have to consider that people react to how they are treated.
[ As seen by yourself a few posts ago] because you felt insulted.

Now If I said to Scotty- Your as silly as a pork chop it would not offend him nearly as much as some Muslim people. Or your lower than a snakes belly.[ Oh now there`s a line why didnt I think of that before.][ Sorry off post Oz[personal]

We have a lot of expressions like every man and his dog turned up. meaning many people came]

BUT Oz. I tell you what. I reckon if you could calm down and post something explaining to Scotty why that might upset you that somebody might say Women are treated worse than a dog then we might all understand each other a bit better.
As you know most Aussies have dogs. They are part of the family.
So the expression about dogs in Austraia "isnt" the same Insult as it is in Islam
I want you to nicely think of something that would be bad if you said it about his family.
Put it to Scotty- Scotty did you know by saying that to me its the same as my saying @to you about your family?
Now depending of course on the bloke he might say- Gee buddy I never meant that.
Or He might say I dont give a rats Arse- Which is just another Aussie saying and again not meant personally.
For now peace and calm Ok
Blesssings to all.

It's pretty obvious now that this thread was initiated disingenuously, at best. If 'Aunti Anti Terrorism' and 'ALJAZEERA_OZ' are actually Muslim forum members, then it appears that they are playing games rather than trying to communicate.

If, as is looking more likely with every post, they are actually trolls attempting to incite the numerous Islamophobes that infest OLO, then they're doing a good job of it.

Personally, I've gicen this thread enough oxygen. I won't be back unless the purported Muslims answer the reasonable questions that have been put to them.

I find it ironic that the only examples where muslims may have conflict with our laws have been put forward by Philo and Graham Y. Aunti, who started this thread, and al -oz are supposedly muslim have not offered any examples, so the question remains hypothectical, which is pretty poor on their part.

Even so, the answeris obvious. Our law takes precedidence over anything else Muslim or otherwise. I expect muslims here to respect that in the same way as I would respect the laws of another country I was in.

If that is a problem then, like Costello said, some may be more comfortable elsewhere.

If I moved to (or even visited) "ABC" country then I would expect to have to abide by the laws of that country and, if living there, learn the language and the customs and traditions. I would expect to have to use their language outside my own home and have my children educated in that language, those customs and those traditions. I would almost certainly feel strongly tempted to provide my children with my cultural background as well.
I don't think that is an unreasonable response. It becomes unreasonable when I permit my cultural background to interfere to the extent that it does not allow me or my family to fully integrate with the society in which I have chosen to live. It becomes unreasonable if I do not permit my children or my partner to do certain things which are considered normal and acceptable by the society concerned.
It becomes unreasonable when I require my children to accept such issues as arranged marriages ormarriages only within my cultural grouping, to dress in a certain manner or in any other way mark themselves out as different from the other members of that society.
If I go still further than that and demand that people outside my cultural grouping behave in ways that are culturally or religiously specific to me then I would be behaving both offensively and in breach of, at very least, the unwritten laws of the society in which I have chosen to live. I would be the one at fault.
Fair or not?

I think you're right Pericles and CJ - I appear to have inadvertently approved an exercise in trolling. Still, it's given rise to some useful debate. I'm particularly interested in Communicat's apparent view that all families ought to conform to the norm.

I'm not sure how you define the norm, and I'm not particularly keen that my kids follow it. Not that we are radically different from what I perceive as the norm, but we do have a sense of family history, pride and philosophy. There's a strong musical history in my family, as well as an attachment to the sea. We're protestants and low church
Anglicans, and tend to see the world through the lens of individualism and the work ethic. You're also expected to have a go, even if it's not quite your thing.

What's the problem with arranged marriage, as long as it is accepted by the parties involved? Why shouldn't people be allowed to stick within their own kinship group or community, if that's what they want to do?

And if they want to dress differently from the vast majority, who am I to force them into low-slung jeans and mid-riff tops?

Amen to all that, Graham. :)

Dare to be different? Now there's a radical thought!

Thanks for your final comments Graham.

Graham I was not suggesting that people need to stick to the norm. If they do not want to that's fine with me but I do see it as a problem when a young person meets someone and the parent says "no in our culture only arranged marriages are allowed" - taken to the extreme we then get the horrific business of such things as so-called 'honour' killings.
I also see it as a problem when the minority group tries to impose their values on me or when one generation born in another country tries to impose the values of the old country on their children if that is not what the children want.
There is an inter-cultural marriage in my immediate family. There are tensions from time to time - and they almost always arise because the generation born overseas want things done they way they were done in their village. The younger generation want to do things differently.
Are you suggesting they should do as the older village born generation wants or should they be allowed to do as they see others around them doing if that is what they want?

I guess it's time we started stoning people who blatantly refuse to observe the Sabbath.

Another badly constructed attempt at vilification, dressed up as a serious debate.

kactuz: "Turnright, stop making silly excuses for the inexcusable. Insist that Muslims live by the same moral standards we do. Insist that they apply these standards to their religion."

Hmm, I seem to recall saying "Overall however, I'm inclined to believe you need to follow the laws that Australians have agreed on - and by and large, those are Australian laws."

Pretty clear, I thought. I just don't subscribe to the view that muslims have to subscribe to the most extreme tenets of the religion.

Sure, those tenets are there. But it's funny how so many anti-muslim posters keep telling Muslims they have to follow such barbaric practices or they're not real muslims. From where I'm sitting, muslims can follow their religion however they damn well want, and for those of us who have actually gone overseas and visited the more liberal muslim societies, such as parts of Indonesia, we see how paranoid and stupid these visions of Islam really are.

Yes, these elements exist - but they don't have to be the norm. What really frustrates me, is so many of those who are violently opposed to these extreme aspects of Islam are actually projecting that onto the more liberal muslims. That really does annoy me, and many of the posters here are doing it right now. In insisting this is what muslims are like, you're forcing them into a situation where instead of living a reasonable faith, they have to reject it entirely or adopt an extreme option.
It's like telling Christians they have to agree to shun gays or get out of the faith. It's unresaonable, ignorant and damaging.

TRTL, it doesn't suit the project of Islamophobia for moderate, reasonable Muslims to exist.

The paranoid 'whack-a-Mozzie' crew need to have the Muslim bogeyman depicted as extremely as possible, otherwise they'd just look even more stupidly hateful than they do now, if that's possible.

Of course, that's why the troll who started this thread began it.

CJ and TurnRight

No, no, no. You don't have to kill torture or rape to be a real Muslim. Most Muslims are not extremists. There are plenty of good Muslims that would never do anything like that. I have never said otherwise. Most Muslim are people like us... but

The problem is that the good Muslims, the ones that are good people, are also the ones that love and respect Mohammad and the Quran. Am I wrong? Have you ever asked a Muslim about their dear prophet? Have you ever asked them to explain his actions in the traditions?

My point is that you cannot count upon the 'good' Muslims to stand up for your rights, particularly when Muslims are in control.

Or let me put it this way, if there are so many good Muslims, why is there so much hate, oppression and persecution in Islamic societies? Where are all the good Muslims when you need them? Why don't the good Muslims in Egypt stand up against the treatment of the copts or the mass sexual attacks in Cairo? Why don't the good Muslims in
Arabia take a stand against the vile laws in that country. Why don't good Muslims in Pakistan, Algeria, Tunisia, Lybia, Iran take a stand against the apostasy laws and other discriminatory policies? Why don't the good Muslims in Iran stop the religious police from beating women in the streets when a few hairs were showing? Why didn't the good Muslims in Afhganistan stop the Tabliban from shooting women in football stadiums?

I think that is a reasonable position.

After much thought I decided that there may be many Muslims that do good things and say cute words (as most in the West do), but they cannot be trusted unless they are honest about matters of life, liberty and human rights. Unfortunately, few Muslim put these values above those of their religion, and that is why things never change. Moderate Muslims make excuses and say pretty words, radical Muslims preach hate and kill. Then both groups go back to the mosque to pray together.

kactuz

Yo Oz
You asked for my opinion

Well judging by your behaviour on this thread.

Let’s start with the heading ok. It’s always a good place to start.

Islamic Values Or - Australian Governments concern.

That’s where your first mistake. It’s Australia First.

Anything less is a “complete insult to all Australians.”

You’re rude by opening a thread and then just running off.

You the extreme to the point of being a person I don’t think ought to be here. Perhaps your not.

If your not please stay where you are.

You got one thing right- Australian Government concern.

If they are not concerned then they should be.

I am an average Aussie. Give a person a fair go.

It’s our way in this beautiful country.

We worked with AFIC the So called Muslim leaders for almost five years exclusively.

Why don’t you gather up all your buddies and tell them pale is now going public with our findings on your honour and integrity.

I am not sure if those two words exist it the Koran I must admit.

Don’t get me wrong I still say there are some nice Muslim people living in Australia- just not the ones we have been dealing with.

As far as making heroes of these gutless wonders who hide out like dingos plotting to kill innocent members of the public in all countries they are nothing but lilly livid cowards.

Getting back to the point Oz?

I intend to open a tell all honest dinky die thread to expose the lies rubbish mind games deceit down right dishonesty we have "personally experienced."

You run off now Oz wont you and tell Ikebal the truth will be reported to the Australian People.

By the way as a friend reminded me on this forum last night.

Dog is just God spelled backwards

Get over it.

Anytime, anywhere any place you would like to have a sensible debate on the Koran and the bible you know where to find me.
Literally.
That’s the difference with Australians –‘ They are not cowards!”

Whilst I think you have to follow Australian laws PALE, I do get tired of all the people saying you have to be Australian first and a Muslim second.

I know plenty of people who would consider themselves to be christians first.

Turnrightleft
I can assure you we work closely with Australian Muslim Leaders and they do not have a problem with respecting both Australia and Islamic faith.
You can see here
http://www.halakindmeats.com/
Please note they have chosen to put Australia before Islamic.
That has been the way for many years.

"The Australian Federation Of Islamic council and Councils"

Now as the official Muslim leaders of Australia have set an example
out of respect I see no reason to challange it.

It is in fact always good manners to put Australia before Anything.

Islamic Values or Australian Values on the title is in fact insulting.
It may not have been done for that purpose but good manners and repect are required.
Your comments to me are completly lacking thought or regard.

I would go so far as to say tat type of behavour does not require any encouragement.

All that from somebody I read is acclaiming to be a journalist advising pale on another thread.

Is this how they teach young journalist to write now is it?

I must say I am certainly glad pale did not a take you up on your very kind offer of re-organising the way pale runs posts and what it says.

I think Pale will stick to working with Muslim leaders who show respect for the country.

Dr Ali and the new Mufti and such.

I also think we may be somewhat more informed and qualified to make a judgement.

I know our Muslim friends would not mind us saying our grandfathers who fought to keep Australia- Australia would be appauled!
Perhaps you need to re vist a jourlisnt school that teaches some good old fashioned manners as it looks like you missed out in your life so far.

ALJAZEERA_OZ
Deal with the subjects posed! I made no comment about stoning that was your reactionary response to my honest question. "For instance what is the prescribed punishment for adultery under shari'ah?" No mention of a single stone.

You made no attempt to state the punishment for adultery, just your reaction. From your answer it is obvious you are extremely nervous about posting just what the Koran and shari'ah actually requires in such a case. The Jews stoned adulturous women under their law, of whom one Jesus saved from such stoning. No mention of how the male companions were treated. Of course under shari'ah a womans witness is only half that of a man. That is how shari'ah operates. Even in Australia today we have shame killings by Muslims on women carried out illegaly in the name of Allah. Islam is a primitive culture dating back to 2,000 BC. and in the hands of some races and cultures is violent in its enforcement of shari'ah law - hence the Taliban. No one applies shari'ah more accurately than the Taliban - Lopping off the heads of infidels and dissenters.

In Australias Muslim authorities eyes - women are the most evil of creatures like uncovered meat in the street. They must be made cover up completely otherwise good Muslim men will assume they are prostitutes for sexual pleasure. Under shari'ah these women are sex slaves and can be treates as one pleases. Hence the use of women without consent for sexual pleasure and all this condoned under shari'ah. Women have no legal status if considered a sex slave. Islam cannot cope with western women, who are equal and free under western laws to dress as they please, without intimidation from the lustful eyes of men.

Where are the defenders of shari'ah?

They know very well how the leaders of the Islamic community in Australia despise Western culture, laws and education. They want to change our free society that allows individual choice and burden us all with shari'ah so as to control our minds, freedoms and behaviours.

There are nations in the world that apply shari'ah - if it is so good then those that espouse its virtues ought to live under it and allow us who prefer freedom to have our culture and laws. You see they cannot let us be free it might ruin their case for the virtues of shari'ah.

Philo

How dare "YOU" speak for the Australian Muslim Authorities!

Just because one person said something that was taken out of all context and blown up by our ever helpful media.
These people cant win no matter what they do.

Many people say many things and I have heard more bigoted stuff coming out of the mouths so some so the Christian Leaders.
Also didn’t the Christian’s burn women and people at the stake back in those days?
I also would point out to you that at least some of the Muslim leaders have had the compassion to speak out about the cruelty of live animal exports.

Now I know YOU’RE not interested in animal’s cruelty because we had that out over a year ago.

A Secret in the last few years among some of our meetings I wrote to the heads of the Muslim Leaders.
It was a complaint about dress standards at meetings regarding wives or females.
Very low cut tops [very] and short shorts.
It was embarrassing to me at the time because it was a formal meeting and like the rest of us we wanted to impress the other side being mostly a room full of lawyers.

When I look back now I am sorry I complained because in hindsight the lady was
A Just being her self
B possibly even dressed so casually in an attempt to show she was supporting us an integrated.
It was probably in her and her husband’s eyes a way of showing they are Aussies and Muslims.
So if you ever reading this guys- Sorry.
We also have a new Mufti of Australia. He’s a nice easy going Aussie who happens s to follow Muslim Faith.

Sure there are probably a few nutters here that are Muslim Philo and if I had my way I would send any trouble makers back.

Speaking of religious bigoted nutters where do I send you?
Off you go now Philo back to your threads on abortion or something to do with female bodily parts or little kids where you normally hang.
Oz ignore him

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming,

Who receives all the live exports of sheep? Are they Christian? Are they infidels? Are they Muslim? Please identify what the live exports are used for! If they are mostly used for Muslim religious practises then I suggest PALE you have ben deceived. One young man married to a cousin of mine was for a few years a buyer for Elders for the sheep export trade to the Middle East. When he witnessed the cruelty done to the sheep he left the employ of Elders. He is now a Christian pastor.

Philo
Thank you for your question.
Who "sends them them there"? "We do". The Australian Government does. We the "Christians do."

What do our Christian Leaders have to say about such Cruelty to Australian Animals- Nothing?

Perhaps the young man who left Elders and is now a pastor will speak out.
I hope so
At least the Muslim leaders have spoken out and said it is not true that they require Animals Alive for Religious purposes.

It’s all about trade deals and stacked tariffs. That Philo is run by Governments.
We are the ones sending the Animals. As you said your relative was a buying for Elders then you must understand he was, we are Australia is the one responsible and our so called Christian churches should hang their heads in shame at their silence!
Re Muslim leaders – Philo I will stand with you at the wharfs in the streets and raid houses if I find any people working to bring down our way of life in this country.
Of course there are some extremist’s nuts getting around blowing up places.
My point is many people who fled those terribly condition to live a new free and peaceful life our copping it again.
Not all Muslim leaders are bad people. Some are.
Just like Christians
But all people have a duty of care to Animals especially Christians and Church leaders who sit in silence.

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming,

The practise of sending sheep already slaughtered is not acceptable to the local culture to whom the live exports are sent. They are not just for food but for ritual religious purposes.

The buyers must identify with the live sheep and take it and own it as theirs before they take its life. It is part of their religious duty.

Australia has undoubtly the best supply of rams for this purpose. The real cruelty today does not happen in Australia or on boats to the Middle East. The real cruelty occurrs after they arrive in the Middle East. Unless you can change the culture of the Midle East the practise will continue even if rams are soursed from elsewhere.

philo
Even if your information were correct - Which it isnt!
That only enforces hypocracy.
So you know about it but still send them or agree with we good christians sending them.
Good Grief. Do you mind if I borow your comments to start a new thread philo?
Now it might help you to know that muslims do not require Live Exports for Religious purposes.
If you would read this media R put out by the Muslim Leaders of Australia speaking out against cruelty it might help you.
http://www.livexports.com/afic.html
I do appreciate your comments on live exports however its best to know facts before making staements about a subject in my opinion.
good on your friend for leaving Elders.
Please note the Government just gave elders a BILLION dollars together with Optus for a project.
Live exports only exsist because of very sleazzy trade deals set up by Governments and greedy little men with no concern for Australian jobs or Animal cruelty.
Perhaps the billion dollars might make you re think who is pushing live exports and why the Government wont stop it.
Be interesting to know what donations go to which parties\ Wouldnt it.?

Well past the time for our Australian Church Leaders to unite and speak out about Gods Creatures and stop live exports.

Dont you think?- The Muslim leaders already have!

People Against Live Exports & Intensive Farming,
Its all very well for educated Muslim leaders in Australia to speak up about Australia's exporting of live animals, they do not want to offend local sensitivities. We in Australia do not allow cruelty to animals hense the RSPCA. We do not allow the slaughter of animals other than under proper proceedures and hygenic conditions for human consumption. This is not the case in Middle Eastern countries. Recognise what are the customs of Middle Eastern Muslims who slaughter their own animals in the back yard of their home by slitting its throat and not stunning it first while it bleeds to death. The cruelty is their problem not ours! We in Australia deplore this practise. So it is logical Muslims in Australia will suport Australian sensitivities as do all honourable Australians.

Philo
As I said they are `our Australian Animals.`

You who speak as a Christian many times on this forum are surley not asking the Australian people to except that you support sending them to treatment such as you just described?

Surley we have a duty of care?

Surley it is time to stop putting the fault at those who take them to those who send them.

Just as clearly if it is not the duty of Church Leaders of Australia to speak out about barric treatment to our Australian Farm Animals Than whose is it?

The spat about pre stunning of Animals goes far beyond your understanding
We do have Muslim Leaders who are prepaired to push ritual slaughter yes
We also those who will rise to challange them and show the world Islam is not about cruelty but a beautiful religion if practised as intended.
Do you really think the Australian people will remain silent if the Governments are stupid enough to allow ritual slaughter.?

Do you not see even more hatred stampted by the Governments if they should allow this.

The Howard Government have a new advisor who I think is savy enough to see the trouble this would start here.

So we have a group of Muslim leaders screaming that we must pre stun and treat Animals kindly.

On the other hand we have old die hard people.

May the best men Win.

That still leaves the Church leaders SILENT

Shame

I will speak up against the cruelty inflicted upon animals as it indicates a cruel person who can and will physically injure or murder other people.

The Church leaders are against cruelty to animals, however in the Middle East it is different religion and it is dificult to internationally condemn another religion and its culture.

Can I ask what is to happen to the hundreds of thousands of male lambs born each year in Australia if we do not export them?

Where are the Middle East going to get sheep from? because they will still carry out these ritual killings. We live in a global village and exports of food is part of feeding people.

philo
for God Sake read the web site and read the Media Release from Muslim leaders.
Thats a cop out and you know it.
As I said WE sent them and the Church Leaders should be screaming
They are hypicrits and in my opinion your looking like just another one.
wwww.livexportsl.com
It really annoys me when ou KEEP Blaming the Muslims when they have TOLD the public THATS IS NOT THE CASE .
You either too arrogant to read it or too disinterested.
Perhaps I should send your comments to them for comments because you are misinforming people.
Its the Chiristainans fault. Muslims HAVE spoken out.
YOUR LOT HAVE NOT!

What countiries have introduced laws against cruelty to animals? Who instituted organisations like RSPCA? Has it been nations influenced by Christian world views, or has it been Islamic? I suggest you visit Middle Eastern nations and have them introduce laws that deal with cruelty to animals.

Start changing this evil practise by asking the Muslim leaders in those Middle Eastern countries to outlaw cruelty to animals. If you are so obsessed with cruelty to animals then deal with the ones creating the cruelty. The same number of animals in the world are going to suffer cruelty even if Australia stopped supplying them to their market needs. The blood of ill treated animals is in your hands. You have the obsession deal with it where it is happening.

Stop blaming the Christian Church - they do not practise brutality to animals. Any person within their walls who does is equivalent to a murderer and has no place within the fold.

Philo
We ARE dealing with those responsible. Australia IS THE LARGEST LIVE ANIMAL EXPORTER IN THE WORLD. This IS A Chistain Country and Church Leaders SAID NOTHING! after the 5 seperate segmants on 60 Minutes and other reports.
This IS OUR SHAME.
Yes we certainly ARE far more interested in the Churches SILENCE scared they might loose some Government grants than you are.
Your attitude is shameful but no different to most of rest of you people.
Who is doing Gods work? Us speaking out for the Lords Creatures AUSTRALIAN CREATURES THAT WE AUSTRALIAN CHRISTIANS SEND ON THOSE DEATH SHIPS or you going on about abortion all the time?
I think the lord may be seriously annoyed by your hyipocacy.
Its every decent persons job to protect animals.
Yours too and the Lord is watching you along with the rest of the Church Leaders.
That much we can promise you.
Dr Hugh Wirth of RSPCA has already given a press conference about the lack of concern from Chistian church Leaders regarding sending our Australian Animals in ships.
If you think the RSPCA are not pointing the fingure at Church Leaders then you havent even bothered to read the information I have given you in the past.
Oh yes the RSPCA have spoken out and asked and asked and asked and asked the church Leaders to DO THEIR JOB and Speak out to the Government about this needless treatmentof Gods Australian Animals.
My Word the RSPCA have.
Yes the RSPCA are discusted with Church Leaders . - Good Christians.
Thats a matter of record!
Muslim Leaders in Australia HAVE spoken out.
Christian Leaders in Australia have not.
And YOU dare call Muslims cruel?
I know who has shown more concern here in Australia Philo between Muslim Australian Leaders and Your good Chiristian Lot.
We are working HERE in Australia.
We need to get Christain leaders HERE to take their responsiblities seriously and demand these animals are slaughtered in Australia.

The churches are distracted "People against live exports...".
Its an apostate age we are living in. The RC church according to its leader Cardinal George Pell (Sunday Tele two weeks back) no longer believes witchcraft is an open door to evil spirits so he encourages the kids to love Harry Potter. Along with Harry goes Harrys' practcies which open the door to possession by satanic trash! Many churches are now with the ONE WORLD CHURCH movement the RC's have started up and have gone apostate through that. Many of the bigger pentecostal churches have gone over to personal wealth doctrines and the internal "dancie dance". The Salvo's got worse and worse over the decades getting bound up with adminstrative paperwork, community helps and demon powers that led them out of the Gifts of The Holy Spirit. The churches are dying in their power! Of course there is Light here and there but until global Christian revival is Handed done by The Lord, christians probably wont pay much attention to God's little creatures and their plight. Praise The Lord for Christian revival soon!

Gibo
And very well said too!