The Forum > General Discussion > Putin Talks of Negotiation over Ukraine,
Putin Talks of Negotiation over Ukraine,
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Posted by Foxy, Friday, 30 December 2022 3:45:16 PM
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Hi Foxy,
Please don't take this the wrong way, but your feelings on this make you appear as someone with PTSD from yours or your parents time living in Lithuana. You act like the USSR is still at the height of its power. I honestly think you should consider a holiday in St. Petersburg. Go and meet the people, talk to them. Do yourself the favour of getting a wide range of opinions. Maybe then you can transcend from that horrible history and find out what things are really all about now. Fester said to me earlier he didn't understand why the Russians interviewed were happy to go to war to kill Americans. Maybe those people already know what it is I'm trying to tell you all. That it is the West with it's economic sanctions and overthrow of the government in Ukraine and neoconsevative agendas which has driven a wedge in between Ukraine and Russia and created so many conflicting problems where Russians have been pitted against other members of their own extended families, (As many Russians have family in Ukraine), - Now conscripted to going to war by the current Ukrainian government, put into power by a western sponsored coup. You seem to think that Russians would embrace the West with open arms. They tried this, the Russians hoped beyond all measure that the west would accept them, but it was not to be. - Of course you could also save yourself the trouble and watch the 2 videos I suggested, but I'm not sure this would truly be enough for you. I think you should go there, and find out things for yourself. I sincerely hope you see the good side of my intentions behind my saying this, and are not offended by it. Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 30 December 2022 4:48:11 PM
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Dear Foxy,
I am now reading a book called "The Sleepwalkers" by Christopher Clark. It is about the events that led up to WW1. After many years archives have been opened, and diplomatic and other actions that led up to the war have been made available to scrutiny. Although we know that forces under Putin invaded Ukraine in February of this year there are many things that led up to that we don't know about but may know in the future when archives are opened. I feel on the partial information I have that a guarantee that Ukraine would not be part of NATO would have prevented the Russian invasion. I feel that western Europe and the US knew that Russia might invade Ukraine if Ukraine became more closely tied to western Europe but thought Russia probably wouldn't. I think they made a bad guess. However, I think a guarantee of Ukraine's neutrality might have prevented the war. Maybe somebody in a 100 years will write a book about it. Posted by david f, Friday, 30 December 2022 4:56:19 PM
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AC,
I've been visiting Russia pretty much every year since 1983. I have visited St Petersburg while it was still Leningrad, had and still have many friends in that most beautiful of cities. I have visited Moscow equally as often and was there the week Gorbachev took power. I saw the optimism of the average Russian at that time and equally saw how badly misplaced that optimism was. And I saw it slowly morph into despair and then a search for scape-goats. Few discerned the true cause for the failures of Gorbachev and his immediate successors but happily accepted the excuses offered up by the elites and ex-party members who raped the country while blaming the west. More than the big cities, I've visited rural Russia more times than I've gotten drunk on Ararat Brandy (a favourite of both Churchill and my dearest Russian friend) - in particular rural and regional Siberia. The views of these people are very different to those of the Muscovites. They despise the central government just as they have for centuries and have no truck with the war which is why you see so many protests and acts of sabotage from the regions. I know its easy to be seduced by apparently objective videos and to think that what you're fed is the truth. But I'm afraid, AC, that you are badly mistaken about Russians and their enthusiasm for Putin's adventurism. Posted by mhaze, Friday, 30 December 2022 5:12:41 PM
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Dear Critic,
«Russia hasn't embarked on 'Red terror' across Europe.» Not yet across - they need to start somewhere, don't they, so where is Ukraine? In Africa? And what difference makes the terror's colour? I know it's not red - it's usually white, blue and red, but when Russia wants to maximise its cruelty/terror, it uses the mainly-green flag with smaller bits of white and red, a black emblem and golden scrolls on the side. «You're saying he wants the return of communism and to take over western Europe, and the Baltic states?» Communism cannot return because it never really was. But as for the rest, yes, he wants just that, the biggest Russian empire he can get. «The Monroe Doctrine is the best known U.S. policy... ...» You are welcome in accusing the U.S.A of whatever, but Europe is not to be blamed for their idiocy. «Putin explained at the 2008 NATO conference in Budapest that plans to bring Georgia and Ukraine into NATO were going to be a problem, would cross a line. Did anyone listen?» Give in to a bully? «Merkels admissions that they never planned to implement them, but simply use them to buy more time to build up Ukraine's military» A valid tactic for the attacked weak. «Russia didn't cut off European energy.» No: Europe proudly and courageously did so and is willing to suffer whatever to stop financing the Russian war machine. «Today is an age of nuclear weapons, they'd be inviting a nuclear war if they tried anything like that.» More bullying? Let it rip! «Russia is not invading Europe, and China is not invading Australia. You're speculating on future events, that would undoubtedly earn a nuclear response if either of them tried.» Russia is already invading a European country while China is not YET invading Australia, but it will try once Australia participates in the defense of Taiwan, just a matter of time. So far there was no nuclear response because Europe is strong enough even without it. In the case of unprepared Australia, sadly, a nuclear response would likely be necessary. Posted by Yuyutsu, Friday, 30 December 2022 5:54:09 PM
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Hi David f,
"I feel that western Europe and the US knew that Russia might invade Ukraine if Ukraine became more closely tied to western Europe but thought Russia probably wouldn't." I'd be speculating, but I wonder based upon the events leading up to the invasion, that the opposite may in fact be true. Also to further my argument here, is a video I shared earlier, added below. This is the story of a woman who was deeply opposed to Putin's war. She saw these 'Z's plastered around everywhere and to her they were like Nazi symbols and she left and went to Russia's far east for a while just to get away from them, to not have to see them. Later she had an opportunity to help by being an interpreter for some people who were going to Donetsk. through that journey and the people she met and spoke to there she came to the conclusion, as many others there did, that the war was completely unavoidable. I took a LIBERAL, ANTI WAR Protester to see the truth in Donbass, and THIS Happened! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OysQ7yQl_o The point of all this is that I'm not sure the US thought 'Russia wouldn't do it', as you suggested. In contrast, I think they may have deliberately kept pushing and pushing, in order to force Putin to act, which it must be noted took 8 years until he actually did. Hi mhaze, I've never been to Russia, so you would know far more about things than me and maybe you can help me understand things more. - But I've never said that Russians were enthusiastic for Putin's war. Who would be happy seeing the husbands, brothers and sons being sent into a warzone? Thank you both for your contributions Posted by Armchair Critic, Friday, 30 December 2022 6:57:08 PM
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the direction of a highly centralized authoritarianism
regime which has chartered the state for most of its
1,000 year history. It is today a highly centralized
inner working of Putin's autocracy.
http://foreignpolicy.com/2022/10/30/russia-democracy-putin-soviet-union-cold-war/