ninaf:"an institution that provides free counselling to both males and females"

Do you think that males might be put off by the many references to feminism and feminists that adorn the website? I'll bet the office is similarly adorned with lots of references to "girls can do anything" and similar empowering affirmations, with no doubt the obilgatory Duluth-model chart of violent behaviours, with "him" as the perpetrator...

Out of interest, how many males did you provide free counselling to last year?

Ninaf, grateful if you could enlighten me on a couple of things.

You start your article by telling us your father was a juror at a rape trial. He would therefore be fully aware of the horrific nature of a real rape incident. Did he ever have a discussion with you on the subject of Anti Rape and Anti Assault Personal Alarms or other avoidance measures?

Here is a link to a website I googled: http://www.personalalarms.com.au/personalalarms.htm

Interestingly the website says the British Police are selling PAs to the public and lists a number of constabularies. It doesn't list any service providers for women.

PAs might not prevent all attacks on women in possession of them, but they could assist in the capture or the chances of others corroborating the description of the offender if activated quickly whilst the offender is making his escape from the scene.

I have a male friend who owns a PA and I am quite impressed with its features.

I have had a look at the NSW Rape Crisis Service website (http://www.nswrapecrisis.com.au/index.htm). I have not at first blush, been able to find any reference to such devices there. I thought at least one PA manufacturer’s name might appear amongst the list of sponsors. But no PA manufacturers appeared among 3 sponsors listed. Only sponsors into air conditioning.

As a member of the management committee of the NSWRCS can you tell us:

1. Does the service have a policy of promoting the usage of such devices?

2. Is it in the charter of the service to do whatever it can in giving advice to women to minimise their chances of becoming a rape or sexual assault victim or is it only concerned with after the event counselling and support?

3. I notice the NSWRCS does request service users to provide non-identifying statistical data to the organisation for accountability purposes. Does that include data on PA usage?

As I have a young daughter, I am genuinely interested in your response to my questions.

Others might also like to comment on what I have to say here.

ROSCOP. As I have clearly stated before I do not speak for the NSWRCC here. You can ask questions regarding my article or my personal opinion but I will not be baited into speaking on their behalf. Also you have no right to ever expect a response from me given the disgusting manner in which you have related to me, though for the benefit of others I will respond in this particular instance.

Your understanding of rape is pathetic. I do support PA devices but the circumstances in which they are likely to be effective are minimal. IN stranger rape circumstances PA devices might work but as discussed earlier in this thread, most victims just freeze (they would not have the presence of mind to fumble through a bag and activate a PA device). Also stranger rape is the rarest form of rape. Also the most common form of rape for adult women is intimate partner rape with one in ten adult women being raped by her current or ex partner. With relationship violence the dynamics are so complex and a PA device would be a crude, unrealistic solution. In 70% of cases the perpetrator is a family member or "friend"- once again the rape does not occur due to physical restraints being used to force the victim into submission, but rather intangible social pressure restraints (like an uncle abusing his niece- in this example the victim does not need a weapon to fight back but rather the belief that she has a strong family network who will support her and side with her if she speaks out)

I'm not saying I don't support PA's- in fact I'm actually assisting a man (that's right! I actually do have male friends) develop a prototype for the Aussie market. I'm just saying that there are limits to their uses (but like self defence classes- if they make women or men feel more confident in their day to day activities then I support them).

Roscop: << Others might also like to comment on what I have to say here >>

I feel really sorry for your daughter.

Nina - thank you for your article and your responses here. You're doing a great job.

Roscop - A few years ago I obtained an inexpensive mobile phone for my children to carry. I really dislike telephones but for safety purposes it was a great help and comfort. Once or twice over the years one or other of my children (daughters and son) have been in situations where the use of the phone has been beaut.

However about 7 or 8 years ago one of my daughters was stalked by a fellow (now in gaol for raping someone else I believe). He followed her in his car; blocked her path with it and chased her into a sparsely populated housing block. The day was high winds and storms -her screams for help didn't carry over the wind, nor would any alarm have done. She couldn't stop running to get the phone out. Luckily she got home (and within minutes he parked outside of our house) and the police were called. Although by then he'd left; she was able to give a good description. On it's own, the police were only able to take a report. When there turned out to be more cases (same fellow; a few school girls) he was eventually charged and went to court. He got a warning and suspended sentence.

Btw that is only one of a number of incidents that I could relate.

Anyway two points:
1. A mobile phone has on the whole been of more use than an alarm.
2. There are times when nothing is helpful.

What I don't like about the whole thing is the idea that if a woman (for whatever reason) can't use or doesn't have an alarm or a phone that she might in some way be blamed for the outcome of an attack, most of which don't happen in public places anyway.

Antiseptic: Could you give an example of the references that you find troublesome.
Do you have any examples of men seeking help who have been turned away by any service providers ?

Ninaf said to antiseptic – “What the F--K are you doing to help fix this problem?”

One thing antiseptic is doing to fix the problem is to enter into the debate and present his opinions in a calm, rational and respectful way. If ninaf was confident about her opinions she would not need to resort to aggression –aggression is never the answer to any problem.

Exactly how do you prove vicarious trauma and how far should the ripple affect be allowed to travel? Just because someone feels stress or pain when someone close to them has been raped does not necessarily mean it is vicarious trauma. It would be unwise to always presume that a person’s self analysis of their own feelings was accurate. In my opinion such events when they come a little too close for comfort can trigger feelings associated with trauma that the relative or friend has experienced in the past but has not adequately resolved for their own peace of mind. A friend of a rape victim may be feeling pain because it triggers off feelings associated with child sexual abuse that they have kept suppressed for many years. It may trigger feelings in other people of who are victims of ongoing domestic violence which they are reluctant to declare. A father may feel unbearable guilt when his daughter is raped because he has unrealistic expectations about his ability to protect his children.

It would be irresponsible of governments to pour money or resources into dealing with every case that comes forward saying that they are victims of vicarious trauma. They may well be victims and in a great deal of pain but it has little or nothing to do with someone else’s experience