I forgot, the bombing of the King David Hotel was conducted by the British to discredit Jewish nationalists. No Israeli would ever conduct such an act of terrorism!

The two British sergeants hung in the orchard, with landmines underneath to kill those who went to cut them down, were also killed by the British, to discredit Israeli nationalists as well.

Baruch Goldstein was just an ordinary Israeli, out for a walk on 25 February 1994, carrying his Galal rifle, as you do, when he stumbled into the mosque in Hebron, and out of fear shot and killed 30 worshippers there. It is only out of reverential respect for his murder by the people in the mosque that members of his group dress their children like him and parade them for Arab Palestinians to see.

Of course no Israeli can do wrong.....

Hamlet - your latest post sounds like the usual ridiculous response that comes up whenever anyone suggests that although perhaps Israel has committed some horrendous sin, it is not alone in sinning.

This is why these discussions are really futile - your response fits neatly into the Friedman definition which was in my first posting on this subject - do you recall it? "Criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for approbrium and international sanction, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East, is anti-Semitic and not saying so is dishonest".

Of course the things that you mention happened - no one denies that they did. It is just that you (and the die hard anti israel people on this list) seem outraged that anyone has the temerity to defend Israel or suggest that is is not the only sinner in the terrible Middle East situation.

Plaza Toro: How dumb do you think the rest of us are! Historically, the Jews as a nation have been a bunch of losers, and a thorn in the side to their neighbors. For thousands of years! From there, lets ask the simple question; Why should the world as a whole sit idly by and watch an historically failed state rest its retributive finger on green nuclear buttons? Keeping in mind the other side don’t have nukes yet, would it not be the ideal moment to subdue Israel and disarm them; For the sake of global peace?

Plaza-Toro, I will support Israel when it agrees to withdraw to pre-1967 borders. I would prefer pre 1955, but I recognise that is completely unrealistic.

Perhaps it is also time for some of the money given to Israel is spent not on weapons but to compensate those who were displaced by Israel.

Maybe it is also time for Israel to grow into what it claims to be, a democracy, instead of a theocracy passing itself off as a democracy, where, as in any true democracy, a separation of church and state, for instance, where marriage and divorce laws are under the control of the government and not under the control of religious organisations.

The settlement program is another way that Israel shows its inhumanity to the Palestinians under its control.

Lastly, when is Israel going to declare a border? I would say never, as so long as it does not declare a border it sees itself as being able to expand.

I have one error to correct from a previous post, it was not Martin Gilbert who is critical of Israel, but Jewish historian Eric Hobsbawm, who compares Israel's wars on conquest with those of Prussia in the 1870s. It is also Hobsbawn who has pointed out that there is only one country that had increased its area by conquest since 1945, and that country is Israel.

Israel has commited the gravest of sins of all - because this is said by God in the OT. Which other people can say so, and who can make a more definitive charge than God?

However, everything - and bar nothing - which is charged by European christianity and islam - are 100% false. Worse, most are even antithetical, and apply only upon the accusers.

Also applicable, is that the Jews were forgiven, and they did enter their homeland: subtle, elusive point. God is kinder than christians and muslims. Strange you should mention only Palestine and a conflict which is less than a 100 years old - as if Jews just landed from Mars and just happened to genocide everyone and rob their lands. Or maybe the Jews should have bowed to Briton and the Arabs and humbly returned to Europe's camps. But I think everone forgets, Jews were displaced from their homeland, then barred from leaving Europe's club med for 2000 years. And we cannot expect the perpertrators to also be the judges - even those who proclaimed LOVE and TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

So go on - show your love and tell us the truth about the real Palestinians [so decreed by Europe 2000 years ago], and which was their homeland, how and why did they loose it, and why did the Holy Church not return them to their land? Prepare your answers for the surprise questions. I suspect this great lie about Israel and Palestinians will be a downfall, and is a tool to test many. Longsuffering has a use-by date.

What exactly would satisfy the world which Israel has not done - which way should she best be destroyed so your Pretend Pals can have some room to build a house? - and what are Israel's rights and who protects her? I'm sure you can produce 50 propositions so Israel must not exist - this seems to be the only fixation of the two brave king kongs beating their chests. But this may not be in the nation's hands, try as they will.

"I will support Israel when it agrees to withdraw to pre-1967 borders. I would prefer pre 1955, but I recognise that is completely unrealistic."

I will support christianity and islam when the Balfour is restored, and a sincere apology is made to the Jews.

Briton cannot be forgiven for declaring a pledge before the world, then flaunting it when the Jews were at their most helpless. All for 30 barrels of oil. Now you know who the real Judas is. Good advice too. This attrocity is what resulted in today's terrorism - legitimising of wanton genocide by stealth, and cuddling up to mafioso regimes who have thus far caused the deaths of millions of innocent peoples. But you can't fool heaven so easily - even if you invent Muslim Zionists tomorrow, and call a 3-state as a 2-state.