Hamlet: "...it is okay that Israel is the only state in the world to have expanded its borders by means of conquest since 1945".

Forgetting Soviet Russia are we? How about Turkey in Cyprus?

As for "Palestinians" being "expelled" is it not true that the vast majority of "Palestinian" left Israel because they were told to do so by the Arabs who were about to invade? Is it not true also that those same Arabs did nothing whatsoever for those "Palestinian refugees" except put them in camps?

DiverDan,

You say >>” … Jews as a nation have been a bunch of losers,”

The Israelis have beaten combined Arab armies three times in the last century. Israel is the most prosperous and democratic country in the entire region. They have excelled in the sciences, art, healthcare and many other fields.

You say>>” … sit idly by and watch an historically failed …”

Israel is the one Middle Eastern country that could not remotely be called a failed state. They don’t need to nuke anyone because Israel can kick the @rse of any of its enemies in the region conventionally. Further, it isn’t Israel that has made noises about wiping out their neighbours and refused to heed the IAEA.

You say >>” … would it not be the ideal moment to subdue Israel and disarm them”

I wonder if you propose the same thing for Iran and North Korea. Certainly they would be easier to take down. And being actual dictatorships which abuse their people and are a real threat to their neighbors, they deserve to be at the front of the queue.

You say >>” They are desperate and in need of compassion …”

Have you even read the Hamas charter? Once the Palestinians accept Israel has a right to exist there will be room for peace and reconstruction. Hundreds of millions of dollars from Arab and other Muslim nations already goes to the Palestinians, but much of it is paid in bounties to the families of suicide bombers, or goes to arms purchases.

One-nation-under-god,

SO WHAT?? You are making my point to Keith for me. There is no way you can speak of Israelis as if they’re all of one mind

Keith,

Israel holds Palestinian land that they took AFTER the invasions of the arab armies. They didn’t take any Palestinian land, except that granted by the UN, until after the invasion by combined Arab armies. Most of the land Palestinians want back was taken after the second invasion in 1967.

To describe this conflict in terms of good and evil is the ultimate one-eyed analysis.

keith

"The Sermon on the Mount is the essence of christianity and your book contradicts most of that teaching with your simple 'an eye for an eye' type mantras. You cannot 'turn the other cheek'. And those mantra's are your ruinous contradiction. That contradiction explains your self-destructive journeys through this world."

The Sermon on the mount is the essence of Judaism, not surprisingly, considering Jesus was a Jew. I suppose you think that eye for an eye is about revenge, it is not, that is a Christian interpretation. Please Seriously Keith, as a friend, read something about Judaism. "Judaism for Dummies" is an excellent starter.

And "given that historically time is always against occupiers, ".

Should I sell my Melbourne property before the Indigenous people take it back? And wasn't most Of England taken by the Anglo Saxons and the French. And wasn't France occupied by German tribes etc etc. And in which country is Alsace now located?

Please think before you write. You are starting to sound like Marilyn Shepherd

DiverDan

You say that Jews are a bunch of losers. Which ones? The Rothschilds, Einstein, the Gershwins, Chagall, Max Planck, Leonard Bernstein, Rogers and Hart, Marilyn Monroe, Mahler, I think not. And Israel a failed state. Do you know where the mobile phone, the Pentium chip or Windows XP were developed? Or which country in the ME has the highest GDP even though it has no oil? If Israel is a failed state then the rest of the Middle East must be an unparalleled disaster.

Logic wrote:

Well David Boaz

You have finally met your match with an evangelizing Jew.

Personally I favour humanism but with a Jewish accent.

Dear Logic,

I am not evangelising but merely responded to BOAZ_David's scrotum tightening suggestion that Muslims and Jews accept his brand of mumbo-jumbo. We have our own brand.

I favour the Hindu wise man Vinoba Bhave's attitude. He recommended vertical conversion. Look deeper in your own faith for answers. Answers derived in that manner are not likely to alienate one from family and community. Only if one cannot find the answers that way should one look outside.

In general Jews do not evangelise. Although we do not advertise or seek converts in any way we have continuing classes made up of Christians who want to become Jews. They have only heard of us by word of mouth.

Successful evangelising of an individual can cut that person off from family. Family is more important than religious belief. We must consider the effect of our actions on the social matrix of the individual.

I wish BOAZ_David were more familiar with the actions of Christian missionaries and the tactics by which the religion has spread. He has denied the violence and coercion which have accompanied the spread of Christianity. One reason that Jews regard such behaviour with abhorrence is the forced conversion of the Idumaeans or Edomites to Judaism over 2,000 years ago. One of the descendants of that people was King Herod who is regarded as a monster by Christians and Jews. Since Herod Jews do not evangelise.

If a non-Jew wishes to become a Jew we are supposed to discourage him or her. Only if they show a sincere desire and insist do we admit them to the classes. We give no publicity to the classes outside of admitting that they exist because we do not wish to differentiate converts from those who are born Jews.

Max Planck was a brilliant scientist and the Nazis executed his son for plotting against them. However, he was a great gentile.

Many a powerful person between 1900-1950, believed in a fabricated document called the Protocols of Zion. Used to great advantage by Adolf Hitler in Germany and Pytor Ivanovich in Russia. It influenced policy and counter-policy.

Israel has a right to exist, but it needs to yeild some soveignty to pre-1967, perhaps. I think Carter & Clinton would have liked to have seen give on both sides. Arafat was a problem.

Dear Logic

no.. an eye for an eye is about 'justice' where the punishment fits the crime. It is a 'limiting' stipulation. That is our 'Christian' understanding.

Welcome back, hope ur well :)

DAVID F

I cannot ignore this juicy morsel :)

<<"I wish BOAZ_David were more familiar with the actions of Christian missionaries and the tactics by which the religion has spread">>

(one day you must have a chat to my wife, she is from an evangelized tribe in Borneo)

David..I'm absolutely familiar with the tactics used. I was/am a missionary. But what you miss...is this:

a)Chronology.. prior to Constantine, the 'methods' used were the simple word of mouth, and as you can read of in Acts.

b)From then (Constantine) on.. you have a multiplicity of methods and many of them were state backed. Power corrupts,and ab... u know the rest.
c) it is woefully inadequate to lump all things supposedly done to advance Christianity into the 'evil machinations' basket (to get behind your words there) of some.

Now..it's one thing to say "Those 'missionaries' did this and that" where those particular people might have used bribery, bait, food aide..its another (and this is the key) to say "and they are following the example and teaching of their founder" (Christ)

This is why I am so adamant that we must, (if we are not to drift off into some netherworld of mumbo jumbo and voodoo speculation) compare all actions of people with what their founder taught and did.

It is for this reason also, that I pay such close attention to Mohammad and his methods. How can we legitimately claim "Islam is dangerous" unless we can establish a strong correlation between the behavior and teaching of their founder and those causing problems today?

The Gospel is: "repent from Sin, to God/Believe in Christ, your sins will be forgiven" That we proclaim, we can do no less. If people respond to any other message "Get rich/women/food/healthy/money/etc by, becoming 'Christian'"- it is NOT..'The Gospel'

Isaiah 53