<<"I wish BOAZ_David were more familiar with the actions of Christian missionaries and the tactics by which the religion has spread">>

BOAZ_David wrote:

(one day you must have a chat to my wife, she is from an evangelized tribe in Borneo)

David..I'm absolutely familiar with the tactics used. I was/am a missionary. But what you miss...is this:

a)Chronology.. prior to Constantine, the 'methods' used were the simple word of mouth, and as you can read of in Acts.

Dear Boaz,

You keep suggesting I look at an unreliable document.

I would love to have a chat with your wife and you. I feel we might be good friends if we could forget about the religions that divide us.

Missionary activities in themselves can be evil.

You may be familiar with the Penan in Sarawak and Brunei. A few years ago I heard about the destruction of their forests and their relocation in villages where they became dependent on handouts rather than continuing their way of life.

I organised a presentation on the situation and gave it in a number of places. Hopefully people would put pressure on Australian owned logging companies and the Malaysian government to stop or limit the destruction of the forests and the Penan way of life.

One of the places I gave my presentation was in a Baptist Church. After I finished the minister, visibly moved, got up and said, "This is terrible. We have to send missionaries."

What was terrible was the destruction of their way of life. Attacking their religious beliefs by missionising was continued destruction. Their way of life was unavoidably changing. Rather than trying to limit the destruction and ease their transition his first thought was to replace their mythology with his.

I was trying to help them preserve their way of life. He wanted to continue the destruction.

To Diver Dan:

Great suggestion for the Israelis to come to Australia. Improvement in comedy, water conservation, technology, literature, military effectiveness, delicatessen and classical music.

we do have plenty of desert [diverdan ,david]
but with good political connections
we could possably give israel the top end

but we dont want your wepons of war
so welcome home

leave your baggage in israel[and usa]
http://lataan.blogspot.com/2008/06/aipac-conference-hate-iran-week-gets.html

THE A.I.P.A.C. CONFERENCE - HATE IRAN WEEK GETS UNDERWAY IN WASHINGTON.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/thegodblog/item/mccain_tells_aipac_that_obama_would_endanger_israel_20080602/

The annual American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) conference
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1212041459949
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/05/8331_aipac_adl_ajc_r.html

Republican presidential candidate John 'Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran' McCain launching into a hate tirade against Iran by accusing his likely presidential election opponent, Barack Obama, of having 'policies toward Iraq and Iran [that] would create chaos and endanger the United States and Israel'.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/aipac-report-reveals-long-history,416207.shtml

AIPAC Report Reveals Long History of Activities Harmful to US
Members of the press, bloggers and law enforcement officials may request a free copy of our special 200 page report during the annual AIPAC Policy Conference being held this week in Washington, DC

http://www.jewishjournal.com/united_states/article/iran_sanctions_figure_large_in_aipac_lobbying_20080602/
Israel (which has at least 150/400 nuclear weapons) lobbies the US to violate the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty with Iran.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JF03Ak01.html

LBJ tapes show a strong connection to Israel
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_lbj_tapes_2
Tapes of Lyndon Johnson's Oval Office conversations, released to the public for the first time on Wednesday, reveal that the American president had a personal and often emotional connection to Israel, a scholar said.
Posted Jun 2, 2008 10:19 AM PST
Category: ISRAELI SPYING

Which explains why Johnson went along with the cover-up of Israel's attack on the USS Liberty
http://www.ussliberty.org/
http://www.antiwar.com/mcgovern/?articleid=12927
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7430141.stm

HELL FROM ABOVE: 111 COUNTRIES BAN THE USE OF CLUSTER BOMBS
Can you guess which countries are NOT included in that count? ....
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/02/hell-from-above-111-countries-ban-the-use-of-cluster-bombs/
http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_26881.shtml

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/motherofallscandals.html
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7015
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11465476
McCain to AIPAC: I will stomp the people you tell me to stomp!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080602/ts_alt_afp/usvotemccainiran_080602143826

... no matter how many American lives and tax dollars it takes!
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0496/9604007.htm
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/86890/
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/988778.html
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/blid:1066

Am an oldie now of 87 who felt deep sympathy for those Jews who were treated like non-humans by the Nazis.

Also backed the new Israelis in their early wars against the Arabs.

But do feel as the former ill-treated Jews gained confidence, they developed a surprising arrogant hatred against their Arab cousins almost akin to the hatred the Nazis developed against them.

It is believed much more fairness could have come into the situation with a common-sensible United Nations, as is still spoken about in university lectures.

The type of UN talked about during the Korean War, but a UN to become dominated by great-power elitism, the same great powers shutting their minds as Israel went illegally atomic, even classing a truly intelligent man like Mordecai as a criminal because he spoke up against it.

Right now with Condoleeza Rice virtually as unofficial spokesperson for what is left of the United Nations, leaves things in a horrible mess.

This is especially so in Iraq, where so much spin is being spun with Saddam's former quarter million Sunni Guard turned insurgents, now on the US pay-roll fulfilling the ridiculous Great Iraqi Awakening.

Cheers - BB, WA.

Dear David F :) you have made my day.....

Your reference to the Penan took me back to 1977 when I encountered some at Bario when I was among the Kelabit on orientation. I was at the pastors house assisting in a Deacons course, and when I came out of a room there were some very bare and scratched bums and loin cloths.. blow pipes..etc sported by some Penan tribespeople.

I'm not only familiar with them, I walked from Bario to Pa' Ramudu with some. I've got some classic pics of these noble people.

Their life is not all rosey and idilic as you imply. They would come out of the jungle from time to time and offer themselves to work for some food when they got weary of the Jungle or there was little food there.

If you goto Long Sukang (Sarawak) and look back toward the coast, you will only see secondary jungle. It wasn't cleared by timer companies, it was cleared by continuing slash and burn rice agriculture. Primary jungle was further to the interior.

Unfortunately, the problem with the timer is 'politically powerful well connected Malays and rich technology savvy Chinese.(in bed together)

The Timber has been a major source of political wheeling and dealing, and so many of the tribes people are caught up in it also.

One timber company in the Sukang area dug out wet padi ponds so the tribes people could cultivate wet rice rather than slash/burn primary jungle.
If you look at the 'logged' jungle in the 5th division..you can't even tell it's been logged. I have some photos.

It's a fascinating story.. the missionaries were invited by the tribes people in the 5th division. (one particular tribe) and that's how it became "Christianized". Its not a perfect situation.. I could go on and on.. with both joy and grief.

But I'm certainly glad to be interacting with one who knows the area.

The 'barriers' between us :) they are more 'here' (olo) than anywhere else.

Dear BOAZ_David,

We have wandered far afield from the original topic, and I am glad of that.

You wrote:

"Dear David F :) you have made my day....."

That may be the best thing I have done on the list.

You wrote:

"Their life is not all rosey and idilic as you imply. They would come out of the jungle from time to time and offer themselves to work for some food when they got weary of the Jungle or there was little food there."

I did not imply their life was rosy and idyllic. You inferred that I implied that. I just heard about their forest being destroyed and what was happening to them because of the timber, and my heart went out to them. I know the life of indigenous people can be full of stresses. My son lived with a tribal people in the Amazon basin for several years. He wrote a book about the stresses which caused the village to split up and part of the tribe to move away.

You wrote:

"It's a fascinating story.. the missionaries were invited by the tribes people in the 5th division. (one particular tribe) and that's how it became "Christianized". Its not a perfect situation.. I could go on and on.. with both joy and grief."

I would like to hear more about it from you.

You wrote:

"But I'm certainly glad to be interacting with one who knows the area."

I really don't know the area. I just read what I could about the people. You know the area.

"The 'barriers' between us :) they are more 'here' (olo) than anywhere else."

To remove the barriers I will contact olo and ask them to supply you with my email address. If you want to you can contact me directly.

Bushbred,

You say >>” But do feel as the former ill-treated Jews gained confidence, they developed a surprising arrogant hatred against their Arab cousins almost akin to the hatred the Nazis developed against them.”

You neglect the fact that the two sides have been at war for 60 years now, and that the combined arab armies invaded Israel three times during that period. It is no secret that the Arabs have a visceral hatred of the Jews and teach it to their children at school. And Hamas’s charter contains quranic references to the murder of Jews on judgement day, when even the rocks and the trees will assist the good muslim in killing the jew.

The UN is dominated by a hopelessly formulated Security Council which gave veto power to two of the largest, and most oppressive, dictatorships around, Russia and China. The fact that non-democratic countries got so much of a say in a supposedly democratic institution played the primary role in making the UN irrelevant.

Israel being a nuclear power has not hurt any regime in the middle east, except to the extent that the regimes knew they could not destroy Israel without being destroyed themselves. Israels nuclear weapons have not been used, nor threatened to be used, in any conflict Israel has been involved in. I challenge you to provide evidence or incidences of any significant negative consequences in the Middle East due to a nuclear armed Israel.

You say >>” This is especially so in Iraq, where so much spin is being spun with Saddam's former quarter million Sunni Guard turned insurgents, now on the US pay-roll fulfilling the ridiculous Great Iraqi Awakening. “

I wonder how it is you see this as being a bad thing. The Sunni awakening, beginning in Anbar province has brought the locals onside with the coalition and Maliki’s gov’t and effectively driven AlQaeda out of Iraq. Provinces like Anbar are at last peaceful enough that reconstruction can begin.

America didn’t go to Iraq to punish the Sunnis, although you seem unable to grasp this

TBC,