Ah the spin of revisionist socialist 'historians' with an axe to grind.

My favorite bit of rubbish?
"It was followed by a second humanitarian disaster in 1967 when Israel seized the whole of Jerusalem and the entirety of historic Palestine"

Of course, no mention of the entire Arab world trying to wipe Israel off the face of the map in 1967 nor that there was also a 'historic Israel'.

This article has so many flaws in it that it almost impossible to list them.
It is so amazingly one-eyed that surely no sensible person would give credence to it.

I had a Palestinian colleague at work, a great guy as far as I could learn, and I intend no disrespect to him or his family.

BUT if the Arab governments had not maintained the Palestinians as tame victims and proxies in their affronted feelings since 1948, the Palestinians would not have been displaced in the first place. If the Palestinians had declared peace and got on with winning politically and economically instead of engaging in mass murder against civilians and trying to create Palestinian civilian deaths for propaganda value, the Palestinian people would now be a million times better off. Indtead they have to maintain a face as appalling death-cultists to even live in Gaza, and not be killed by their Hamas mobsters.

Now how to reconcile that with my workmate? In my opinion, the moral posturing of the West and of the Arab states has armed and encouraged the worst possible outcome for Palestinian Arabs, who could have got land, freedom and economic success if they had waged peace.

The only challenge that this article poses is why the authors have a readership. Why they selectively focus on certain historical moments, and not others, is not due to any inherent bias, or agenda, but due to an exclusive claim on the "Truth". The obvious question, is why they choose to only focus upon Israel - but we won't accuse them of antisemitism because their morality is cleary a pure morality? While free speech demands that the authors declare their perspective on life, the credibility of their speech is only as cheap as the ideological lenses through which they blindly interpret select moments of a very subjective history to prove a point they blindly believe, with an inability to think critically about their own internal agendas and bias. Using their brilliance, there is no nation state on earth that is not a terrorist state. There again, they never articulate any criteria for distinguishing a terrorist state from a legitimate state. I can think of many comments from Australian leaders rejecting Aboriginal claims to land, desiring the eradication of the aboriginal population etc. I guess, Australia was also created out of terrorism. And the Americas. And Saudi Arabia. The Roman Empire. India. New Zealand. South Africa. And not to mention those Socialist places - USSR, China, etc etc etc. Out of context quotes from leaders, random "facts" and chronologies -- I still don't understand why such an article is permitted to be part of an intelligent conversation.

The article appeared in "The Socialist Worker" organ of The Socialist Workers Party (SWP). SWP is the largest far left political party in Britain. Internationally, it leads the Trotskyist organisation, the International Socialist Tendency.

It continues a conflict among Jews lasting over a hundred years. The Jewish population of czarist Russia was oppressed. Some kept their heads down and endured. Some emigrated. Some Zionist Jews saw liberation in a Jewish homeland. Some Marxist Jews saw liberation as part of a general liberation. Many of the latter saw their Jewish identity as not important and identified with other communists.

In 1897 the Bund, a Jewish Socialist party, was founded in Vilna. The Bund was anti-Zionist, promoted Yiddish and supported Jewish national rights as part of the new society they envisioned. Remnants are still active. However, the part of the Bund in the Soviet Union was destroyed. The USSR had no room for an independent Jewish group. The Marxist left still continues the struggle against Zionism.

The article treats Zionism as a colonial enterprise disregarding the rights of non-Jews. From early in the movement there were Zionists who were extremely concerned with the rights of non-Jews. Dizengoff who wrote the following was the first mayor of Tel Aviv. Ben Gurion proclaimed independence from his house.

"How can Jews, who demand emancipation in Russia, rob rights and act selfishly toward other workers upon coming to Eretz Israel? If it is possible for many a people to hide fairness and justice behind cannon smoke, how and behind what shall we hide fairness and justice? We should absolutely not deceive ourselves with terrible visions. We shall never possess cannons, even if the goyim shall bear arms against one another for ever. Therefore, we cannot but settle in our land fairly and justly, to live and let live. (Meir Dizengoff (writing as "Dromi") "The Workers Question," Hatzvi, September 21, 22, 1909)

The article is a Marxist polemic demonising Jews who don't follow their vision. Trotsky, inspiration for the SWP, helped create a Nakba for the Russian people in which an estimated 20,000,000 died.

I think this is what is missing in the Jewish experience;
All the great utterances of Isaiah point to a world united under one God and living in righteousness and at peace. But sadly, not all the prophetic books of the Bible preach to such ends. The result is a modern day Israel with a siege mentality.

Thomas Friedman's apt quote "Criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for approbrium and international sanction, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East, is anti-Semitic and not saying so is dishonest" applies to this article.

This quote appears in the Barry Cohen posting in this edition of Online Opinion "Some of my Best Friends are Anti-Semitic". Cohen's article clearly deals with intellectually dishonest people such as the authors of this one, people who clearly have an agenda, and an anti-semitic one at that (if one accepts what Friedman says - and I do).

The article has segments of partial truth but taken out of context. It distorts what happened but the authors must be too ideologically driven to consider the consequences of distorting the facts so badly - patent distortions destroy credibility. It also paints Israel (the Jews) as people who did nothing but evil against the innocent Arabs/Palestinians. They only fought after they were attacked by the Israelis, according to Alexander and Rose.

Certainly Israel was created in act which created injustice for the Palestinians. Certainly Israel has done some stupid and illegal things - some of them quite horrendous but for God's sake, the Palestinians and their Arab nation mates have acted out of bad motives and are guilty of just as many, if not more, stupid and illegal things - and even barbaric actions against captured Jews.

Patently intellectually dishonest articles such as this one only ensure that the Palestinian problem becomes more intractable because they encourage the victims to hold out for the Holocaust solution (driving the Jews into the sea - it has not gone away but merely manifests itself in the refusal to accept that Israel has a right to exist) and not seek other solutions that might come about by a bit of racheting down by both sides. So long as the Holocaust solution looms Israel will become more and more intactable - that, after all was the immediate cause of the post war move to create Israel.

The term Semite means ;

a-member-of any of-various ancient-and-modern peoples-originating-in southwestern Asia,

including-Akkadians,-Canaanites,-Phoenicians,-Hebrews, Arabs, and-Ethiopian-Semites.

PLease-observe semite-INCLUDES-arabs ,anti-semitism INCLUDES attacking arabs ,or ridiculing arab dress ,customs , beliefs etc ,

It-is-important that we know the meaning ,to-understand the-words describing the-problem?

If antisemitism is-being-practiced that-is-bad ,just-like any-other bias based on sex-or-belief or-physical , mental , cultural,or biased oppression based-on dominating other's differences that-results-in-futile-and-ongoing-war's.

it-can honestly be-said what-is-going-on
in-the prison-camp-ghetto that-is gaza is collateral [punitive-punishment on a whole-race of semites by anti-semites]

[it-is reported that we-are-being silent about racist-oppression worse than south-africa [this comes-from a former south-african priest now-visiting this human-disaster-zone]

while the-press is hardly informing us-of the-situation , the-reports are horrendous ,

all-life is-sacred BECAUSE only-god can-give us-our lives to live

but the-attrocities are-so extensive
http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-atrocities-folder.html

We all know about the 6 million jews genocided in the gas chambers of the natzies , but-the genocide by the bolchovics [russian-jews ] of 10 million christians dosnt-rate a memntion

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-genocide-folder.htm

Time to awake from-this eternal unending nightmare

GIVE BACK TO GOD ,

revealing the same mercy he-has given in letting this-insanity go-on [for as long as it has ,

wake up my brothers [ALL}.

http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/bassem_naeem/2008/05/hamas_condemns_the_holocaust.html

have posted comments but it hasnt gotten through as yet

for those thinking [ignoring that hammas has-changed its supposed vieuw of the holocaust ]

[please note no post from any palesteins has rebutted it]

also
please note [and feel free to explain-or-defend]
http://sabbah.biz/mt/archives/2008/05/11/video-photos-israeli-loot-girls-orphanage/
http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m43878&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://www.commondreams.org/archive/2008/05/08/8810/

or what about the-active-suppression-by-wikipedia ?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1934857/Israeli-battles-rage-on-Wikipedia.html
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/06/is-google-ethnic-cleansing-the-internet/

so what you think god isnt watching?

http://www.palestine-info.co.uk/en/default.aspx?xyz=U6Qq7k%2bcOd87MDI46m9rUxJEpMO%2bi1s7Vhf2CVJRDd7wyczbEXDt54uG940dE6KmWwcfyZwkLeCe6fsBLkKC5dzaigdSEbqB2YtJHyerJjeSBkPrwFkIxR4z8YSAZae2VfrkWsIqqEY%3d

http://www.maannews.net/en/index.php?opr=ShowDetails&ID=29101
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/08/open-letter-to-the-editors-and-writers-of-the-alternative-media/
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m43817&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/08/AR2008050801521.html
http://notimetocelebrate.wordpress.com/2008/05/10/san-francisco-20-jews-arrested-in-protest-of-60th-anniversary-event/
ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg106770.html" target="_blank">http://www.mail-archive.com/ctrl@listserv.aol.com/msg106770.html
http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5gJ32n2W1dfYaQM0GHKotyQ8cJG7w

how is it that gods-people would like to be remembered?

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/05/despite-it-all-hope-is-still-alive-in-gaza/

those seeking to kill [or genocide others arnt serving the god of life

We have all been decieved by the great deciever
stop and think

god gives dust life
satan seeks to turn all life back to dust

there is time to think

check out this vidio
''IF I WAS AN ERROR-IST"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8FFB-R_U8RM

please use the brains god gave you
to stop and think
ARE YOU SERVING THE LIFE GIVER

{OR THE LIFE TAKER]

If Israel by means of terrorism and expulsion of the Palestinians built an outpost of civilization within sixty years whilst fighting three wars and hundreds of skirmishes with its Arab myrmidons who were determined to wipe it off the earth, can you imagine, if this is the implication of the authors' article, that Palestinian Hamas-Hezbollah-al Qaeda terrorism, with its active suicidal votaries chasing the seventy-two virgins, could also build a civilized state on the burning carcasses of Israelis?

http://daringoutlook.blogspot.com

When trying to make sense of the battle in the Middle East between the Palestinians and the Jews I think it is fruitful to compare that struggle with what happened in Germany after World War 2. In Germany, there were millions of refugees that had been expelled from territories to the east that had been inhabited by germans for a thousand years. In comparison with the arabs, the germans accepted the situation, re-settled the refugees in West Germany and other countries (including Australia), and, as a result, the camps had gone by 1954. In comparison, despite coming into amounts of money in the 1970's that had previously only been dreamed about, the arabs deliberately let the palestinians rot in the camps, in the hope that they would attack Israel. I consider this to be the primary moral issue. Coupled with the total moral abdication of the palestinian leadership towards the welfare of their people (I would regard the use of people with Downs Syndrome as suicide(?) bombers to be the prime example) their support of the terrorists who have attacked Australians makes them our enemy, and makes Israel our ally in this struggle.

Last time I checked my history books, Jews have never stolen anyone's land in all their 4000 year history - despite being the world's most dispersed people due to their land being stolen. In contrast, it is not possible to find any place inhabited by Muslims where there is no terrorism, stealing, massacres and the world's most notorious falsehoods:

Jerusalem is a Hebrew name, and predates both Islam [1400 years old] and the Arab race [2500 years old].

The Jewish temple was NOT a myth, and the Muslims dumped a blue mosque here under full knowledge of their actions - the same was done in India.

Unlike Israel, none of the Arab states have any historical borders, and were created by a whim by the Brits - when oil was discovered.

Moses was not a Muslim - not even by belief: this is a clear lie being fed to Muslim youth.

The exaggerated hatred only affirms a guilt factor: the Arabs do not need another golf cource, and are obsessed that Israel is still *OCCUPYING 12 %* of the land originally allocated her in the Balfour.

Even the name Palestinians is false, and these are the least effected refugees not just in today's world, but also in Geo-History: the Pretend Pals have more options and facilities than any other peoples - but they seem not to be able to take a breath unless the witness for the prosecution is destroyed. I wonder why!

'TO COVER ONE LIE - A 1000 TRUTHS MUST BE COVERED'

Re. "PLease-observe semite-INCLUDES-arabs ,anti-semitism INCLUDES attacking arabs ,or ridiculing arab"

While semite relates to an entire region, Anti-semitism does not relate to Arab muslims - unless they are even jealous of this term, which was exclusively directed at the jews.

Nor can the Arabs be associated with canaanites. The first time this people emerged as an identifiable ethnic race is 2,500 years ago, after Greece conquered Persia. These were gangs which promised protection to the Copts from foreigners invading the region, but ended up stealing Egypt from the inhabitant copts. At this time, many Jews were scattered around the region, following the Babylonian exile, and everything what became Islam was taken from the jews. The arabs never even possessed a writin script, arabic appearing only in 350 CE - so how can they claim any history about Jerusalem or Jews?

The Muslim erected mosques in jerusalem on the destroyed temple site, believing that israel was dead after the Roman destruction: they were worng, and have tried to steal names such as Palestinian, which they hated as they do Zionists today. Now, seeing the original owner returned - they are consumed by hate and guilt, because everything they told their peoples appears to be a lie.

I challenge anyone to evidence any Arabs prior to 2500 years ago, or to evidence that antisemitism ever applied to Muslims!

I did-not even know-about the Belfour-agreement of WWI until recently,

let-alone this >>new-agreement<<, since much-of the-news on television is manipulated by our-government and-corporations it-is well we-are here to help each-other understand how-we got-here ,

how-WE-got-to where eli-teist neo-cons religious nutter'sss of all types-of-beliefs seem-to want-us to go-to the end-time war to-end all war?

;ie armogeddon
For-what; mearly to-despoil all_gods_creation into-dust ,or cash.

It seems there-was an-agreement [the bell-four agreement]
but there-is two agreements ,one no-one speaks of!

http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2004-04/11/article04.shtml

http://www.tari.org/Articles/a_new_belfour_declaration.htm

many Americans-believe that the-conflict between Islam_and_Israel started with Abraham, and-that somehow, the U.S. got-pulled-into >>a family feud << that-is killing thousands of our soldiers and loved ones.

Ok it-isnt far-from the_truth

We_are_ALL children of-the ONE_GOD ,

god_alone weeps for-EVERY-futile death in this political_LIE that facilitates ongoing insanity to brothers-[and]-sisters_children-of-the-ONE_GOD ,all-of-us-are children-of god

IT must-be undeniable that-ALL life was given ONLY-by gods will,

each-of-us has been given this GIFT of life
FROM the_same_GOD

DOES it-not seem reason-able that to-respect_OUR_own GIFT-of-life, that we simply respect ALL life?

IF_not for life [FOR GOD?]

Think of where we-have all-come from to-get to-be living today
[by gods will alone]
have we been given the gift of reason ,
WHY_DO_WE_REFUSE_to_USE-it?

we live in a time where-even MORTAL_enemies can_communicate together [on-the same blog]

Ask_why_our_leaders arnt-doing-this?

Could it be that some power seeks to blind-them to kill-all-life?

Could not our very leaders be decieved ?

by such-a one like-as satan
[who refused to bow before adam even though his [our] own G-D demanded it?]

[he [the-angel-of-death] is the seeker of death of all life

;HE-who swore to return all_life back to the dust!


if you look at the video you-will see-that it doesn't depict Israelis and Americans as being against Arabs - or jews or africans , burmise nor chinese nor russions

it shows how we-are all_the same.
Same blood, same wishes, same needs...

THE SAME GOD



Here see this the video: Stop the Clash
http://www.avaaz.org/en/stop_the_clash

Let us join as one
For the only god

beyond naming ,Thus-being-knowable-by-HIS-creation[life]

who is sustaining all living ,all-life

who is all loving , all grace and mercy

may_HIS_peace be_upon-US-ALL

From the responses to the article it is clear that some things are self evident, and anyone who disagrees is an anti-semitic holocaust denier who the Mossad should silence:

These truths are:

1. Israel can do no wrong.

2. No Israeli can do wrong.

3. That because Solomon's empire went from the Sinai to the Litani River, so should Israel.

4. That 'Palestine' was a land without people waiting for people without a land' (ergo, the 'people' who lived there were not really people, just 'arabs', the bastard sons of Esau.)

5. That the 'Palestinians' (remember, these are not people, as the land was without people) should be made to pay for the sins of Europe from the Dreyfus case to the Final Solution.

6. That any criticism of Israel 'foreign policy' can be countered by accusations of 'anti-semitism'.

7. That Israel can legitimately claim to be a democracy whilst holding defacto control over millions of non-Israelis.

8. That it is okay that Israel is the only state in the world to have expanded its borders by means of conquest since 1945. (Oh, I forgot, any land that Israel says is within its borders is automatically within its borders, so the statement re expansion cannot be true.)

Actually these two are citing the works of many Israeli historians brave enough to tell the truth and I am reading a book by a Scotsman brave enough to tell the truth about the so-called liberation of Europe from nazi Germany and the zionist and stern and Irgun terrorists learnt well from us.

Yes us. An Australian was in charge of murdering upwards of 30,000 German refugees in one fell swoop after the liberation, and we were with the British and others when they expelled 16 million Germans, killed 2.25 - 3 million of them after the armistice and left the jews to die in the concentration camps with all the others they threw into them.

Official figures for the Jewish populations of Germany in 1933 were 450,000, two thirds whom fled before the holocaust.

IN Austria it was only 180,000 and two thirds of them escaped. Where the 6 million comes from is obviously another load of bunkum.

What the US would do is take propoganda pictures with dead bodies, but they were the ones keeping them locked up by then and they were dying at the rate of 200 per day.

These films were then used to allow even more inhuman practices on the innocent German civilians because the US had decided that every German was bad. Ring any bells folks?

The book is After the Reich by Giles MacDonough and is a shocking indictment on all of us.

Marilyn Shepherd, your figures re German and Austrian Jews may be right or wrong, but these figures do not tell the whole story.

The Germans systematically killed millions of Jews and Gypsies, and started on Slavs, not just from Germany and Austria, but from Poland (remember the Warsaw Ghetto? Poland had a pre-war Jewish population of around 3 million), Russia, the Ukraine, France, Belgium, Hungary, Czechoslovakia, the Netherlands (remember Anne Frank? She was a Dutch Jew).

British historian Martin Gilbert, a socialist Jew who is a critic of Israel estimates 5,750,000 Jews dying due to German activities.

Even that notorious Holocaust denier David Irving acknowledges that millions of Jews died, he just falsely claims that they were not systematically killed.

The enormous mass of evidence is that around 6 millions Jews were killed. Around 250,000 Gypsies were killed, a number in similar proportion to their population to the Jews.

I grew up with kids whose parents were holocaust survivors, and who had lost grandparents, uncles aunts and other relatives in the Shoah. Don't try telling me that the holocaust did not happen.

Marilyn, you should read more widely than just one book.

Hi all...My name is.."Marilyn"... I love to find a book which matches my opinions..fits my prejudices and makes me feel good...then I raise that book to the level of 'Inspired'..and come to OLO :)

sorry M..but you do ask for it a bit.

cheers.

Now..I just 'know' some are going to jump on me about dat :)

"one under god" said that as Arabs are also Semites, anti-semitism includes attacking arabs.

I am sorry, one-under-god, but this argument is based on a complete ignorance of the term “antiSemtitism” and its history – or on total intellectual dishonesty. It is also anti-Semitic in the real sense of the term and, in my experience, is used only by people who are anti-Semitic (in its true, undistorted meaning) but who are not honest enough to admit it.

To make such a statement suggests that the term only came into existence when the Israeli's and Palestinians/Arabs conflicts/disputes came into existence and that is a gross and palpable distortion and anachronistic approach.

When the term came into existence and common useage there was no Israeli/Jewish v Palestinian/Arab conflict in a sense where the Jews were likely to want to marginalize or exclude the Arabs but there was massive anti-Jewish prejudice and action(s) and had been for centuries - pogroms, expulsions, expropriations, ignorant prejudice about such things as blood sacrifice, government lies such at the Protocols of the Elders of Zions, the deliberate impoverishment of Jews at the same time as governments fanned anti-Semitism to divert attention (see Poland and Germany between the wars, Poland until 1967). The ultimate example of anti-Semitism was the Holocaust (which Marilyn says did not really happen) The only Semites that were in Europe were the Jews and the term was one used in a European context. It is only recently when there have been attempts again to depersonalize the Jews (e.g., not using the term "Israel" but talking of the "Zionists", not talking about "Israeli policies" but "Zionist policies") that this somewhat spurious argument has surfaced.

In this context it is used to deny that there is or has been any actions/pogroms/persecution of Jews and seeks to depersonalize them, just as Hitler did – except that Hitler, unlike people who trot this argument out was honest because he admitted his anti-Semitism. The argument diminishes, indeed, hides and denies (and is calculated to hide) the horrors actually committed in the name of anti-Semitism in its real meaning.

What amazes about this article is its reference to the monstrous crime (sic) of the Israeli settlement in 1947. That isn’t the first occasion of Jews returning to Jerusalem with guns blazing is it ! Remember Moses and the twelve tribes of Abraham?. Look , historically a Jewish state has never been successful. It is simply in the wrong place. As Saul perished under a hail of Philistine arrows and his body was nailed to the walls of Beth-shan. So will befall the fate of Israel .
We sure could use some Israeli dry land farming expertise here in Australia. Shift the bloody place out here, and try to live in peace. Fetch over the Israeli nuclear arsenal as well, saving us the expense of the inevitable nuclear arming of Australia (American benefit). And a bit of American foreign aid too ; another windfall for Australia.

"These truths are:
1. Israel can do no wrong."

The truth is, the heading of this thread is an open lie. Israel was not created by terrorism. In fact, the following is the truth:

1. Israel was created a 1000 times more legally than any Arab state. Israel was established via the UN, unlike any Arab state, which was hoisted on oil. In fact, all the Arab states actually voted in the UN Motion, and when the results favorured Israel, they flaunted the UN and made a multi-arab state attack, with a declared goal of genocide.

2. There were no muslims called palestinians when the arab states attacked in 1948.

3. The west bank and Gaza were in arab hands in 1948. Today's muslims are hardly concerned with the Pretend pals or with land - they just cannot accept another any non-muslim states in the middle-east. But Jews predate islam and the Arabrace, as do the copts and the kurds.

4. The arab attack constituted the greatest violation in the UN's history - but still the UN Madarasa issued no Resolution.

5. Not one of the Arab states which Briton created are based on historical borders, as is Israel. Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, and all the gulf states are new states made from oil borders. The Muslim regimes are responsible for 100s of 1000s of deaths all around the world, by appointing poisonous clerics to produce killer zombies - as a deflection. When the Regimes reject democrasy and free multi-party rule, theyare in fact rejecting LAWS.

6. Jordan is an illegal state. It was created by corruption for oil contracts.

7. Muslims are not palestinians - this name was Jewish for 2000 years, and it is a shame for muslims to wear this name.

8. jews have never stolen anyone's lands in all their 4000 year history - despite being the world's most dispersed people. In fact, the jewish homeland was stolen from jews 2000 years ago, and the pre-islamic people were hired as paid mercenaries in Rome's army, and were in the front rows destroying thre jewish temple. [The Josephus documents]. Today the muslims openly lie that the jewish temple was a zionist myth - so what does this say of their belief - it is also based on lies.

9. The silence of christians here makes them even more guilty than the Muslims, and it will make a mockery of the gospels which says the truth will set you free. This guarantees European christians to become 100% guilty in th judgement of the Holy One.

10. the silence of christians to take the muslims to task will eventually backfire. When christians remain silent Moses being called a Muslim, it soon becomes accepted muslims also call Jesus as a Palestinian - which is historically impossible: Jesus died in 30 CE, and the name Palestina was dumped on the jews of Judea 40 years later, in 70 CE. So how could JC be a Palestinian? That is the price christians pay when they remain silent of falsehoods made about Jews.

11. Quote: '..In his 1st-century Antiquities of the Jews, Flavius Josephus described Jerusalem in the Gospel era, stating that the Herodian Temple was "incredible". Set within a complex of over 35 acres, where the El-Aqsa Mosque and the Dome of the Rock now stand, it was the most magnificent construction of the era - far bigger than the Acropolis in Athens. However, the mighty edifice was destroyed by Titus and the Roman legions in AD 70 when the Jews became the only state which rejected the Roman decree to worship its emperor'. <thttp://graal.co.uk/houseofdavid.html

To Iam Joseph: Yes, it is hard to argue with historic fact, but you are looking for a perverted justice from history. Obviously you feel deeply on the subject of justification for the Jewish state and I ,least of all, wish to condemn you for that. But the rest of the world looks on in wonderment at the atrocities now committed by the Israelis against Palestinians (irrespective of who Palestinians are historically) They are desperate and in need of compassion and that in the broader sense is the treatment their cause will get. Can you understand that simplicity?

Diver Dan,

'They are desperate and in need of compassion and that in the broader sense is the treatment their cause will get. Can you understand that simplicity?'

These people have a philosophy that is rooted in a book thousands of years old. These people have never revised nor added to this book.
These people cannot assess the modern concept of human rights or apply this concept to others because this book doesn't take into account modern history or ... development.

Just in case you, in error, assume I am talking like a Muslim hater, I'm refering to The First Testament Bible.

These people can only operate in line with their books beliefs. eg God bequeathed them the land of Zion from the Nile to the Euphrates, an eye for an eye, the Chosen People, etc etc etc.

None of them can recant these stupidities on any level. As an exercise just ask any of them to do just that. Then watch the more idiotic dodge and weave and claim that they really are Liberal Democrats... and follow western philosophies. That's really amusing.

Stupid people, especially fundamentalist christians, support them in their beliefs and defend them on the basis of their self serving book. These same Fundi christians overlook the 'Sermon on the Mount' and how Christianity is compassionate, simple and giving and so is fundamentally different from their book and their beliefs. These same fundi's exhibit an unnatural hate for Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims.

iamjoseph ,you thought to remove this post?

thethirdchoice ,

implies 3 or morechoices ,so guess what they are
[love doing good ,love doing bad , or love doing nothing]
by your deeds i know yours is love doing evil



[the 3rd choice [the realm of the sleepers] ,
but,you arnt a 'sleeper are you
you chose to do your vile live time

serving two_masters dosnt-work]



You say the scriptures contradict each-other ,

give NO egsamples

you say they contradict
EXPLAIN WHERE BRO

rebut DONT JUST get CENSURE
YOU are missing the point [god]



the messengers/messages/rituals get elivated above god

the ritual or the messengers subvert us away from the live
time realisation of HIS love and HIS grace

[his=logus=god]



Thus did the people of mosus build a calf , treasure an arc

,build a temple [note all material things]

yet even knowing the spiritual essence underlying

they like you miss the living loving celestial truth ,

thus was the rite [circumsizion betrayed by the slaughter

of-a whole tribe , because one fell in love and allowed

his 'physical' passions to run amuck ,



please note that israel was but one of the tribes ,further

that isra-EL , literally means wars with god ,



thus jesus can tell a crowd [intent on stoning an

adulteress] by writing in the sand 'thou shalt not kill' then

further revealing the further teaching of let ye without sin...

etc]



note the followers of the 'last' messenger

[may-gods-peace-be upon-them-all ]
note_they obey the 'rule' not to make graven images

[this needed to be highlighted because mens seem to

allways be putting holy texts ,holy ritual ,unholy religious

i-cons , miricles, holy prophets and messengers before the

ever-present [ever-loving ]ever-living god of grace.



ye shall have no god before him

[nor after]

but most of all not above HIM



It is god_who gives us ALL life [GOOD]

death in no way serves the life giver [GOD]



DEATH can only 'serve' the evil/vile/veil of

the death maker]

[or those serving-2-masters[or_material-gain]



god>good>life



death>bad>d-evil



[lift the veil , see de-evil is truelly vile

"Stupid people, especially fundamentalist christians, support them in their beliefs and defend them on the basis of their self serving book. These same Fundi christians overlook the 'Sermon on the Mount' and how Christianity is compassionate, simple and giving and so is fundamentally different from their book and their beliefs. These same fundi's exhibit an unnatural hate for Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims."

From the Sermon on the Mount:

Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jesus apparently did not consider the Jewish Bible a self serving book since he in the above passage recommended observing its law and quoted from it copiously.

You are perpetuating an ugly stereotype. "Christianity is compassionate, simple and giving and so is fundamentally different from their book and their beliefs." That is the kind of garbage that has inspired years of Christian persecution of Jews culminating in that ultimate expression of applied Christianity, the Holocaust.

I suggest three books to you.

"Constantine's Sword" by John Carroll who was a Catholic priest. That tells of the militarism, intolerance and Jew hatred of Christianity since Constantine.

"The Closing of the Western Mind" by Charles Freeman. This tells how the adoption of Christianity by the Roman Empire brought in the Dark Ages as the faith demanded by Christianity destroyed the spirit of inquiry and questioning in the classical world.

"The Conversion of Europe from Paganism to Christianity: 371-1386" by Richard Fletcher. 371 was the date that the Roman Empire adopted Christianity as a state religion. With the exception of Ireland the rest of Europe was converted by violence.

As I pointed out to you before. "Love thy neighbour as thyself" comes from Leviticus, the Jewish Bible. Almost everything that Jesus said that was good comes from his Jewish background. Nonsense such as the virgin birth comes from pagan mythology current at the time. Neurotic guilt from original sin comes from an interpretation of Genesis through the Platonic Fall of man.

WORLD OUTRAGE AS HAMAS FIRES INTO CROWD OF 3000 ISRAELIS AT GAZA BORDER.


http://lataan.blogspot.com/2008/05/world-outrage-as-hamas-fires-into-crowd.html

Sorry; it seems I got that wrong.
It should have read:

“IDF fires into crowd of 3000 Hamas protestors at Gaza border –
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/988735.html
World couldn’t care less”.
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m44492&hd=&size=1&l=e
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/free-world-of-censorship-purge-at-haaretz-news/
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m44479&hd=&size=1&l=e

IS-ra-EL?

israeli Housing Minister is to permit 1460 new housing units in East Jerusalem settlements
In another blatant violation of the promise made in Annapolis in September 2007 by Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to halt settlement construction, the Israeli Housing Minister Ze'ev Boim announced Friday that he will be issuing permits for 1,460 new housing units in three Israeli settlements built on Palestinian land in East Jerusalem.
The announcement came just days before the Israeli Prime Minister plans to visit Washington to report on the progress of the peace process.

this announcement, right on the heels of Olmert's next trip to Washington, is nothing short of amazing.
And regarding this being a meeting regarding the "progress of the peace process", I would look at that pretext with great skepticism.

More than likely, it will be about how some kind of a strike against Iran can be pulled off successfully between now and the end of Bush's term.

Remember: Bush has promised to support Israel militarily, no matter who starts the shooting

CANT YOU HEAR THE DRUMS OF WAR?
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23488455-details/Al-Qaeda's+terrifying+vision+of+a+devastated+America+in+the+wake+of+a+nuclear+attack/article.do
http://www.ips.org/blog/jimlobe/?p=150
http://www.allenwsmith.com/id5.html
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/tutu-gaza-blockade-abomination/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/are-you-angry-yet-you-should-be/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/israel-committing-memorycide/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/uncertain-world/2053942/SITE%27s-embarrassment-as-Islamist-%27Washington-apocalypse%27-image-turns-out-to-be-from-Fallout-3-game.html
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m44489&hd=&size=1&l=e

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/old-oslo-illusions/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/30/in-israel-you-can-pick-your-friends-but-beware-when-you-pick-cabinet-ministers/

http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/the-israeli-wehrmacht/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/petition-for-freedom-lift-travel-restrictions-on-palestinian-journalist-2/
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/the-demographic-fear-factor-in-israel/
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/babylonbeyond/2008/05/iran-former-ger.html
http://infowars.net/articles/may2008/300508Fallujah.htm
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/05/31/us-state-department-nominated-for-an-oscar/
http://www.naharnet.com/domino/tn/NewsDesk.nsf/getstory?openform&403FEFACBEE7D87AC225745900650135
http://www.blick.ch/news/ausland/9-11/artikel45057
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/USA/US_paying_allies_to_fight_war_in_Iraq/articleshow/3087326.cms

keith wrote:

"These people have a philosophy that is rooted in a book thousands of years old. These people have never revised nor added to this book.
These people cannot assess the modern concept of human rights or apply this concept to others because this book doesn't take into account modern history or ... development.

Just in case you, in error, assume I am talking like a Muslim hater, I'm refering to The First Testament Bible."

You are not a Muslim hater, but you sound like a Jew hater. Besides you are inaccurate. One continual Jewish activity is explaining the Jewish Bible and making it relevant. The Talmud, commentaries and codes, midrashim, responsa, the Guide for the Perplexed, the Kabbalah and the Zohar are some of the many works that Jews have written to add to or explain the Jewish Bible. The Jews are people of the book to a greater extent than any other people. The Responsa are living works currently being added to.

The Talmud discusses the meanings of Bible passages. Unlike Christian Councils which declare some views acceptable and others heresies the complete arguments are recorded. Even if one view is accepted those of the minority opinion are not declared heretics as was the case with Pelagius who argued against Original Sin, was declared a heretic and exiled.

The midrashim express humanity. One example is the midrash concerning the waters of the Red Sea closing over the Egyptians pursuing the Jews.

The angels cheered the destruction. The Lord wept because they were also his children.

Since there is no figure like a pope or any sort of a hierarchy different branches of Judaism are free to revise practices. Some branches of Judaism have female rabbis. Some rabbis officiate at same sex marriages. There is even an ongoing discussion concerning the kosher laws. Some rabbis wanted to revise the laws so as to declare animals raised in deplorable conditions such as battery hens non-kosher.

"The Sacred Books of the Jews" by Harry Gersh published in 1968 by Stein & Day surveys this immense body of literature.

Dear Keith.... you said:

<<These people cannot assess the modern concept of human rights or apply this concept to others because this book doesn't take into account modern history or ... development.>>

Actually, it's not so much 'the book' which prevents them from adhering to human rights.. those rights were defined IN that book.. they are very simple.. and include doing for others as we would have them do for us..

and 3 classes of persons attracted repeated mention in the OT..
-"The widow"
-"The Orphan"
-"The Alien"

All were to be cared for.

BUT... God help any "alien" who tried to take over the Israeli state...now'that' is a different issue alllltogether.

I appreciate your modern outlook, but that outlook fails to consider just how deep in history and culture the salvation history of Gods dealing with Israel is.

You don't 'get' it.. because your faith appears to be in 'human' systems.. UN etc.. well they are the new kid on the block mate.. with all due respect.. the Jews and Arabs have been around in an identifiable form for millenia. Why would they even think of listening to the UN which is a historical 'child' compared to them?

Qaint ideas of 'human rights' simply don't apply to areas of tribal competitiveness.. the sooner we realized this.. the sooner we will stop wasting a heck of a lot of money and time.

david f

So you don't like what you read so you bring out the old furphy of anti-semitism. You goose nobody is listening to you and your spite and hatred anymore.

And I'm used to such stupid condemnatiobns from those who never ever cast a stone. Ha what a joke you and your fellow propagandists are.

Anti semitism allegations no longer work. The world now treats such allegations with the greatest disdain and contempt. They have been over-used and have been debased. And I'd bet you in your gross blindness and stupidity can't work out another simple reason why reasoning people now totally reject them.

Hahahaha Explaining is not adding to nor revising it is merely a akin to a blind man explaining why his view of the world is the only correct view.

I can understand why you are critical of christianity. Your book doesn't include Christ and his teachings. In fact those beliefs totally challenge your teachings and your book.

The Sermon on the Mount is the essence of christianity and your book contradicts most of that teaching with your simple 'an eye for an eye' type mantras. You cannot 'turn the other cheek'. And those mantra's are your ruinous contradiction. That contradiction explains your self-destructive journeys through this world.

No amount of weasal word explanations can change those facts.

You are simply just another loather of peace.

By the way where is your reformation? You cannot argue accuracy while you ignore the simple facts and events of Western history.

Now simply and clearly state you reject the notion of 'an eye for an eye' and clearly state you believe you should 'turn the other cheek'.

No weasel word explanations are needed.

Why haven't you denied you are a supporter of the vitrol against Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians?

Keith,

Once again you make sweeping statements about a nation of 7,300,000, and you are just plain wrong.

Davidf has shown that your arguments regarding the jewish faith are false, and are in fact, anti-semitic. Furthermore only 17% of Jews consider themselves orthodox. The secular tradition in Israel is similar in popularity to that in the west.

You say >>” These people can only operate in line with their books beliefs”

Besides being flat out wrong, this is also offensive y. It is the position of an anti-semite, and an uneducated one at that. You might do well to read a book once in a while

You say >>” None of them can recant these stupidities on any level.”

See Meretz-Yachad party who had 12 seats in Israels Parliament and who’s principles directly contradict your assertions. There are many other organizations in Israel which completely defy your simplistic judgements.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meretz-Yachad

No one is taking your rants seriously becasue every time we knock one of your arguments down you just change the subject.

Marilyn,

I see you have now moved on to Holocaust denial. Well you’ll have plenty of interesting company. The Iranians hold conferences on the issue, and many Muslim children are taught this despicable bastardisation of the truth. You clearly hate the Jews with a passion, yet you are unprepared to admit your bigotry. There is a vast amount of study which has been undertaken on the issue of the Holocaust, proving beyond doubt the validity of the claims. Or is all that a Jewish conspiracy?

Davidf,

Given the level of hatred of Israel among the soft-left and hard-left, I wonder how you believe you can rely upon them to save Israel from mass genocide once the Hamas led single state you are pushing for becomes a reality. Israelis will no doubt feel cold comfort from the fact that they have a piece of paper from the toothless UN to defend them from the head-hacking hordes.

Does it not disturb you that many people who would support your scheme rub their hands together in anticipation of the smashing of Israel.

I forgot, the bombing of the King David Hotel was conducted by the British to discredit Jewish nationalists. No Israeli would ever conduct such an act of terrorism!

The two British sergeants hung in the orchard, with landmines underneath to kill those who went to cut them down, were also killed by the British, to discredit Israeli nationalists as well.

Baruch Goldstein was just an ordinary Israeli, out for a walk on 25 February 1994, carrying his Galal rifle, as you do, when he stumbled into the mosque in Hebron, and out of fear shot and killed 30 worshippers there. It is only out of reverential respect for his murder by the people in the mosque that members of his group dress their children like him and parade them for Arab Palestinians to see.

Of course no Israeli can do wrong.....

Hamlet - your latest post sounds like the usual ridiculous response that comes up whenever anyone suggests that although perhaps Israel has committed some horrendous sin, it is not alone in sinning.

This is why these discussions are really futile - your response fits neatly into the Friedman definition which was in my first posting on this subject - do you recall it? "Criticising Israel is not anti-Semitic and saying so is vile. But singling out Israel for approbrium and international sanction, out of all proportion to any other party in the Middle East, is anti-Semitic and not saying so is dishonest".

Of course the things that you mention happened - no one denies that they did. It is just that you (and the die hard anti israel people on this list) seem outraged that anyone has the temerity to defend Israel or suggest that is is not the only sinner in the terrible Middle East situation.

Plaza Toro: How dumb do you think the rest of us are! Historically, the Jews as a nation have been a bunch of losers, and a thorn in the side to their neighbors. For thousands of years! From there, lets ask the simple question; Why should the world as a whole sit idly by and watch an historically failed state rest its retributive finger on green nuclear buttons? Keeping in mind the other side don’t have nukes yet, would it not be the ideal moment to subdue Israel and disarm them; For the sake of global peace?

Plaza-Toro, I will support Israel when it agrees to withdraw to pre-1967 borders. I would prefer pre 1955, but I recognise that is completely unrealistic.

Perhaps it is also time for some of the money given to Israel is spent not on weapons but to compensate those who were displaced by Israel.

Maybe it is also time for Israel to grow into what it claims to be, a democracy, instead of a theocracy passing itself off as a democracy, where, as in any true democracy, a separation of church and state, for instance, where marriage and divorce laws are under the control of the government and not under the control of religious organisations.

The settlement program is another way that Israel shows its inhumanity to the Palestinians under its control.

Lastly, when is Israel going to declare a border? I would say never, as so long as it does not declare a border it sees itself as being able to expand.

I have one error to correct from a previous post, it was not Martin Gilbert who is critical of Israel, but Jewish historian Eric Hobsbawm, who compares Israel's wars on conquest with those of Prussia in the 1870s. It is also Hobsbawn who has pointed out that there is only one country that had increased its area by conquest since 1945, and that country is Israel.

Israel has commited the gravest of sins of all - because this is said by God in the OT. Which other people can say so, and who can make a more definitive charge than God?

However, everything - and bar nothing - which is charged by European christianity and islam - are 100% false. Worse, most are even antithetical, and apply only upon the accusers.

Also applicable, is that the Jews were forgiven, and they did enter their homeland: subtle, elusive point. God is kinder than christians and muslims. Strange you should mention only Palestine and a conflict which is less than a 100 years old - as if Jews just landed from Mars and just happened to genocide everyone and rob their lands. Or maybe the Jews should have bowed to Briton and the Arabs and humbly returned to Europe's camps. But I think everone forgets, Jews were displaced from their homeland, then barred from leaving Europe's club med for 2000 years. And we cannot expect the perpertrators to also be the judges - even those who proclaimed LOVE and TRUTH WILL SET YOU FREE.

So go on - show your love and tell us the truth about the real Palestinians [so decreed by Europe 2000 years ago], and which was their homeland, how and why did they loose it, and why did the Holy Church not return them to their land? Prepare your answers for the surprise questions. I suspect this great lie about Israel and Palestinians will be a downfall, and is a tool to test many. Longsuffering has a use-by date.

What exactly would satisfy the world which Israel has not done - which way should she best be destroyed so your Pretend Pals can have some room to build a house? - and what are Israel's rights and who protects her? I'm sure you can produce 50 propositions so Israel must not exist - this seems to be the only fixation of the two brave king kongs beating their chests. But this may not be in the nation's hands, try as they will.

"I will support Israel when it agrees to withdraw to pre-1967 borders. I would prefer pre 1955, but I recognise that is completely unrealistic."

I will support christianity and islam when the Balfour is restored, and a sincere apology is made to the Jews.

Briton cannot be forgiven for declaring a pledge before the world, then flaunting it when the Jews were at their most helpless. All for 30 barrels of oil. Now you know who the real Judas is. Good advice too. This attrocity is what resulted in today's terrorism - legitimising of wanton genocide by stealth, and cuddling up to mafioso regimes who have thus far caused the deaths of millions of innocent peoples. But you can't fool heaven so easily - even if you invent Muslim Zionists tomorrow, and call a 3-state as a 2-state.

Bloody Jews, eh!
Continue to force them to invention because of necessity and they thrive. What the hell is going on there?
A nation of slaves, essentially, who refuse to bow their heads to further oppression from those assuming God's favour. How many times have anti-Israel forces tried to snuff their candle so far? Successes:Zero.
Whose side is God really on, I wonder?lol!
Jealousy of ongoing progress can be the only reason that these anti-Israeli forces WASTE their energies and peoples in futile attempts to hit Israel with a stick. Each time they do, they're whacked with a much bigger stick for much longer. Hello!! Get a clue, morons!
Idiots who pontificate about the rights, or otherwise, of Israel to exist would best expend their energies persuading those they champion to recognise defeat when they see it, reconcile themselves to their losses and make the best of what's left to them. Worked for the descendants of David after all...

Hamlet,

You say >>” Of course no Israeli can do wrong”

That’s an extremely childish suggestion. You won’t find anyone on this site saying Israel can do no wrong.

Regarding your anecdotes, here are two more recent obscenities

• March 6, 2008: Eight men, seven of them teenagers, were killed when a gunman entered the Merkaz-HaRav-Yeshiva and opened fire. The terrorist also wounded nine.
• February 4, 2008: A 73-year-old woman was killed and 40 people were wounded when a suicide bomber blew himself up in a shopping center. A second bomber was shot by a police officer http://www.adl.org/Israel/israel_attacks.asp ( see here for hundreds more )

There are Israelis who hate Palestinians and don’t wish to live in peace with them. But these people are NOT in the majority. They are not even a large minority.

You say>>” I will support Israel when it agrees to withdraw to pre-1967 borders. I would prefer pre 1955, but I recognise that is completely unrealistic”

Sorry? What exactly is the difference between pre 1955 and pre 1967 borders? They are the same thing.

I too want Israel to return to its pre-1967 borders, although I would support the swapping of land in order to keep Ma'ale Adummim, Modi'in Illi and Ariel, home to almost 100,000 people. Until Palestinians accept Israel's right to exist and cease fighting for its destruction, they cannot expect the return of the land.

You say >>”... instead of a theocracy passing itself off as a democracy”

The claims of theocracy are hollow and unsupportable. There is a real theocracy in the region, and you need only compare the two to see that Israel is not a theocracy.

You say >>” there is only one country that had increased its area by conquest since 1945.”

Israel was the victim of three attacks by the combined forces of its neighbours. When you invade a country and try and wipe it out you don’t get to whinge later when you lose some of your own land because your enemy fights back

Paul l
you wrote
>>Keith,

Once again you make sweeping statements about a nation of 7,300,000,
and you are just plain wrong.<<

but the inferance is that we are talking of jewish israelies

but one quater isnt jewish ,

even then one quater called jew are presumed to be athiest
brings the number to about just under 4 million,

well under when the 250,000 citisens overseas
are taken out

so why use 7.3 million?

thats about half of the truth ,

but the one trillion in us aid does mainly go to the -4 mil

In 2006, the official number of Arab residents in Israel -

including East Jerusalem permanent residents many of whom are not citizens
-
was 1,413,500 people, about 20% of Israel’s population.

According to the Israel Central Bureau of Statistics

(May 2003), Muslims, including Bedouins,
make up 82% of the entire Israeli Arab population,
with around 9% Druze, and 9% Christians.[45

Religious Makeup of Israel Religion's

Population % of total
Jewish 5,313,800. 76.0%
Muslim 1,140,600 16.3%
Christian 146,000 2.1%
Druze 115,200 1.7%
Unclassified
by choice 272,200 3.9%

Official figures do not exist as to the number of atheists or
otherwise non-affiliated individuals,
who may comprise up to a quarter of the population referred to as Jewish

Paul.L wrote;

"Given the level of hatred of Israel among the soft-left and hard-left, I wonder how you believe you can rely upon them to save Israel from mass genocide once the Hamas led single state you are pushing for becomes a reality. Israelis will no doubt feel cold comfort from the fact that they have a piece of paper from the toothless UN to defend them from the head-hacking hordes.

Does it not disturb you that many people who would support your scheme rub their hands together in anticipation of the smashing of Israel."

Dear Paul L,

If I am right it doesn't matter who agrees.

If there were a single state and Hamas called the tune mass murder could result. However, I also think there is no future in ethnic nationalism. The single state is an eventual goal - not an immediate one. Hatreds have to die first.

The current Arab strategy is a winning one. Just keep on with a war of attrition. The Israelis will get tired of it, will make damaging concessions or will become harder. Any of those will be bad.

One is already happening. Israelis are living in the US, Australia, the UK - places under less tension. Some of them go back for military service, but they are making homes elsewhere.

The second is coming. Israel will be forced to accept a Palestinian state. With an occupation Israel can limit the armament that comes in. If there were an independent Palestine it would be free to invite Arab armies in so it could be used as a base for a new war. A Palestine state would be less of a democracy than Israel, and Christian Arabs will keep fleeing.

The third? If Israel survives by becoming more militarised and more brutal they will change for the worse.

None is good.

The options for the Palestinians are not good either. They are suffering under the occupation, have Fatah kleptocracy & Hamas fanaticism.

I feel sympathy for all concerned. Your suggestion?

'I kicked the Arab, I stepped on his head'
It would have been difficult to choose a more cynical date on which to send out such a mess
age: Wednesday, April 30, the eve of Holocaust Remembrance Day.
Dozens of boys arrived at the meeting place in the Pisgat Ze'ev shopping mall.
They streamed in from all parts of the capital, some on foot, some by bus
and some driven in by parents.
Equipped with knives, sticks and clubs,
they all had one purpose: to do harm to Arabs for being Arabs.

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m44508&hd=&size=1&l=e
but there is yet more
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/01/photo-of-the-week-1608/
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/988829.html
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1212041441541&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/01/when-the-kettle-calls-the-pot-black/
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fakealqaeda.html
Now that the Scottish authorities have admitted that Libya was framed for the Lockerbie
bombing, the rush is on to find a new patsy,
and here we have a very convenient "confession" pinning the blame an Abu Nidal.
Only problem here is that it is now known Abu Nidal was a Mossad Asset,
whose job it was with his Black September group to commit the very atrocities Israel used
to destroy public sympathy for Palestine even as Israel stole more of their land
and killed more of their people.
Practically every job Abu Nidal did benefited Israel politically.
Accused 9-11 Mohammed Atta (seen on Jack Abramoff's Casino Ship just weeks before 9-11)
was supposedly trained by Nidal.

but thats not how it is reported
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2211327.stm
http://www.knx1070.com/pages/2285508.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/2211327.stm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AIlyj6D5qmk&feature=PlayList&p=E99D8873F5892DD5&index=0&playnext=1
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7003
http://homo-sapien-underground.blogspot.com/2007/04/is-israel-your-friendwhat-are.html
it explains other stuff
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/01/the-various-degrees-of-racism/
http://existentialistcowboy.blogspot.com/2007/07/pure-pork-gravy-train-how-government.html
http://rigorousintuition.ca/board/viewtopic.php?t=17953&start=0
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/05/31/cnmurdoch131.xml
Nobody likes a liar, 'Rupe'.
http://www.prosecutionofbush.com/
Scott McClellan's book has validated what most Americans knew all along.
Media corporations, including yours, helped the US Government lie the nation into a war.

Back in the days of William Randolph "You provide the pictures. I'll provide the war."
Hearst, a newspaper mogul could start a war and get away with it.
But this is the age of the internet.
The very nature of information flow within society has irrevocably changed

'When you invade a country and try and wipe it out you don’t get to whinge later when you lose some of your own land because your enemy fights back...'

Isn't this comment typical. It does't seem to dawn on the propagandist's consciousness that we liberal democrats, humanists, and thinkers could possibly apply this same remark or it's implied standards to Israel.

Since Israel is illegally occupying East Jerusleum, the West Bank, Syria, Lebanon and much of the territory mandated by the UN to the Palestinians, and given that historically time is always against occupiers, might this statement come back to bite you loathers of peace on the bum.

I often laugh at the narrowness of focus and righteousness or just plain stupidity of these defenders of evil.

How much Palestinian land did Israel steal today?

Hamlet: "...it is okay that Israel is the only state in the world to have expanded its borders by means of conquest since 1945".

Forgetting Soviet Russia are we? How about Turkey in Cyprus?

As for "Palestinians" being "expelled" is it not true that the vast majority of "Palestinian" left Israel because they were told to do so by the Arabs who were about to invade? Is it not true also that those same Arabs did nothing whatsoever for those "Palestinian refugees" except put them in camps?

DiverDan,

You say >>” … Jews as a nation have been a bunch of losers,”

The Israelis have beaten combined Arab armies three times in the last century. Israel is the most prosperous and democratic country in the entire region. They have excelled in the sciences, art, healthcare and many other fields.

You say>>” … sit idly by and watch an historically failed …”

Israel is the one Middle Eastern country that could not remotely be called a failed state. They don’t need to nuke anyone because Israel can kick the @rse of any of its enemies in the region conventionally. Further, it isn’t Israel that has made noises about wiping out their neighbours and refused to heed the IAEA.

You say >>” … would it not be the ideal moment to subdue Israel and disarm them”

I wonder if you propose the same thing for Iran and North Korea. Certainly they would be easier to take down. And being actual dictatorships which abuse their people and are a real threat to their neighbors, they deserve to be at the front of the queue.

You say >>” They are desperate and in need of compassion …”

Have you even read the Hamas charter? Once the Palestinians accept Israel has a right to exist there will be room for peace and reconstruction. Hundreds of millions of dollars from Arab and other Muslim nations already goes to the Palestinians, but much of it is paid in bounties to the families of suicide bombers, or goes to arms purchases.

One-nation-under-god,

SO WHAT?? You are making my point to Keith for me. There is no way you can speak of Israelis as if they’re all of one mind

Keith,

Israel holds Palestinian land that they took AFTER the invasions of the arab armies. They didn’t take any Palestinian land, except that granted by the UN, until after the invasion by combined Arab armies. Most of the land Palestinians want back was taken after the second invasion in 1967.

To describe this conflict in terms of good and evil is the ultimate one-eyed analysis.

keith

"The Sermon on the Mount is the essence of christianity and your book contradicts most of that teaching with your simple 'an eye for an eye' type mantras. You cannot 'turn the other cheek'. And those mantra's are your ruinous contradiction. That contradiction explains your self-destructive journeys through this world."

The Sermon on the mount is the essence of Judaism, not surprisingly, considering Jesus was a Jew. I suppose you think that eye for an eye is about revenge, it is not, that is a Christian interpretation. Please Seriously Keith, as a friend, read something about Judaism. "Judaism for Dummies" is an excellent starter.

And "given that historically time is always against occupiers, ".

Should I sell my Melbourne property before the Indigenous people take it back? And wasn't most Of England taken by the Anglo Saxons and the French. And wasn't France occupied by German tribes etc etc. And in which country is Alsace now located?

Please think before you write. You are starting to sound like Marilyn Shepherd

DiverDan

You say that Jews are a bunch of losers. Which ones? The Rothschilds, Einstein, the Gershwins, Chagall, Max Planck, Leonard Bernstein, Rogers and Hart, Marilyn Monroe, Mahler, I think not. And Israel a failed state. Do you know where the mobile phone, the Pentium chip or Windows XP were developed? Or which country in the ME has the highest GDP even though it has no oil? If Israel is a failed state then the rest of the Middle East must be an unparalleled disaster.

Logic wrote:

Well David Boaz

You have finally met your match with an evangelizing Jew.

Personally I favour humanism but with a Jewish accent.

Dear Logic,

I am not evangelising but merely responded to BOAZ_David's scrotum tightening suggestion that Muslims and Jews accept his brand of mumbo-jumbo. We have our own brand.

I favour the Hindu wise man Vinoba Bhave's attitude. He recommended vertical conversion. Look deeper in your own faith for answers. Answers derived in that manner are not likely to alienate one from family and community. Only if one cannot find the answers that way should one look outside.

In general Jews do not evangelise. Although we do not advertise or seek converts in any way we have continuing classes made up of Christians who want to become Jews. They have only heard of us by word of mouth.

Successful evangelising of an individual can cut that person off from family. Family is more important than religious belief. We must consider the effect of our actions on the social matrix of the individual.

I wish BOAZ_David were more familiar with the actions of Christian missionaries and the tactics by which the religion has spread. He has denied the violence and coercion which have accompanied the spread of Christianity. One reason that Jews regard such behaviour with abhorrence is the forced conversion of the Idumaeans or Edomites to Judaism over 2,000 years ago. One of the descendants of that people was King Herod who is regarded as a monster by Christians and Jews. Since Herod Jews do not evangelise.

If a non-Jew wishes to become a Jew we are supposed to discourage him or her. Only if they show a sincere desire and insist do we admit them to the classes. We give no publicity to the classes outside of admitting that they exist because we do not wish to differentiate converts from those who are born Jews.

Max Planck was a brilliant scientist and the Nazis executed his son for plotting against them. However, he was a great gentile.

Many a powerful person between 1900-1950, believed in a fabricated document called the Protocols of Zion. Used to great advantage by Adolf Hitler in Germany and Pytor Ivanovich in Russia. It influenced policy and counter-policy.

Israel has a right to exist, but it needs to yeild some soveignty to pre-1967, perhaps. I think Carter & Clinton would have liked to have seen give on both sides. Arafat was a problem.

Dear Logic

no.. an eye for an eye is about 'justice' where the punishment fits the crime. It is a 'limiting' stipulation. That is our 'Christian' understanding.

Welcome back, hope ur well :)

DAVID F

I cannot ignore this juicy morsel :)

<<"I wish BOAZ_David were more familiar with the actions of Christian missionaries and the tactics by which the religion has spread">>

(one day you must have a chat to my wife, she is from an evangelized tribe in Borneo)

David..I'm absolutely familiar with the tactics used. I was/am a missionary. But what you miss...is this:

a)Chronology.. prior to Constantine, the 'methods' used were the simple word of mouth, and as you can read of in Acts.

b)From then (Constantine) on.. you have a multiplicity of methods and many of them were state backed. Power corrupts,and ab... u know the rest.
c) it is woefully inadequate to lump all things supposedly done to advance Christianity into the 'evil machinations' basket (to get behind your words there) of some.

Now..it's one thing to say "Those 'missionaries' did this and that" where those particular people might have used bribery, bait, food aide..its another (and this is the key) to say "and they are following the example and teaching of their founder" (Christ)

This is why I am so adamant that we must, (if we are not to drift off into some netherworld of mumbo jumbo and voodoo speculation) compare all actions of people with what their founder taught and did.

It is for this reason also, that I pay such close attention to Mohammad and his methods. How can we legitimately claim "Islam is dangerous" unless we can establish a strong correlation between the behavior and teaching of their founder and those causing problems today?

The Gospel is: "repent from Sin, to God/Believe in Christ, your sins will be forgiven" That we proclaim, we can do no less. If people respond to any other message "Get rich/women/food/healthy/money/etc by, becoming 'Christian'"- it is NOT..'The Gospel'

Isaiah 53

Boazy,

There would have been 150 years of written gospels between 80 CE-325CE. The Lore beriod was about a generation. Some suggest a Quell document. Catch is with Lore there is "Chinese whispers" and there were different versions as the Lore spread. Different authors had their own spin. Nicaea had ago at sorting this mess-out, herein institutioning early dogma.

Not sure about why you made the comments, though? The Jewish-Roman Wars of the 60s and 130s? In the mid-first century, there were the zealots. Later, Herodians fell out of favour and joined in with the Idumaeans against Western Rome. After then every second Roman Emperor was a nut-case.

What has Constatime to do with terrorism, except after Nicaea when he orderees destroyed ancient statues, as did the contemporary Taliban?

EUROSTAN - GUILTY AS HELL.

How dare Israel still *OCCUPY ALL OF 12%* of the land alloted her in the Balfour Declaration. How dare Jews genocide Europe's invented 'Pretend Pals' - who have more options & facilities than any other people in Geo-History. How dare the Zionists Zionise Zion. How dare the world not call a deathly 3-state as a 2-state. But the truth will never set Eurostan free - and the real Judas is one who sold out the Jews when they were most helpless - for 30 barrels of oil:

'IT WILL BE AN HISTORIC COMPROMISE TO GRANT TWO STATES IN PALESTINE - ONE FOR THE JEWS AND ONE FOR THE ARABS' - Churchill.

Briton lost her prefix of 'Great' when she corrupted the Balfour and created Jordan. Jews have never stolen anyone's land in all their 4000 year history - exactly the reverse of Eurostan's history - who murdered more innocent people than any other.

Eurostan is hell-bent on killing the witness returned from Eurostan's camps for Heaven's prosecution. Understandable. Go for it - fool Heaven. Those who chant 'VE VERE NOT AVARE' again will find themselves in a quagmire with no escape routes this time - longsuffering has a use-by date. And Hell is what happens to you while your busy making other plans.

"an eye for an eye is about 'justice' where the punishment fits the crime."

Its about 'COMPENSATION'; compensation = justice. Read the entire passage.

"The Gospel is: "repent from Sin, to God/Believe in Christ, your sins will be forgiven" That we proclaim, we can do no less."

Joining a VIP club offers no immunity:

'ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL PAY - THE SON SHALL NOT PAY FOR THE FATHER, NOR THE MOTHER FOR THE DAUGHTER' [OT]

"Many a powerful person between 1900-1950, believed in a fabricated document called the Protocols of Zion. Used to great advantage by Adolf Hitler in Germany and Pytor Ivanovich in Russia. It influenced policy and counter-policy."

Today, Eurostan does the same. Those who robbed and destroyed Israel 2000 years ago and called Jews Palestinians - are accusing Jews of their own crimes. Like the Nazis, Eurostan is again worshipping a new Protocols with impunity - and hiding behind JC & Mohammed.

" Israel has a right to exist, but it needs to yeild some soveignty to pre-1967, perhaps."

A catch 22. If you believe Israel has a right to exist, you cannot attach a death clause to it. The world is demanding from Jews the only thing the world does not need and the only thing Israel does not have: LAND. You cannot fool heaven.

Does Eurostan need another golf course to be built on soccer-sized Israel? Will Eurostan invent 'Muslim Zionists' tomorrow, and accuse Israel of genociding them - then demand a 4-state and again call it a 2-state 4 peace? Do christians & muslims need a calculator and a history book?

Christians and muslim are in for some big surprises. JC & Mohammed have harkened to the God of Israel - and has turned their faces away from Eurostan - in utter shame. Check your watches.

'A FALSEHOOD AND THE HOLY ONE CANNOT ABIDE TOGETHER'

Look out the nut jobs are here and threatening anyone who disagrees with them with retribution from their loving gods.

Thank the Greeks that we are westernised liberal democrats and these crank cases need a majority before they can take over.

So unlike their churches and Israel eh?

Paul L I must be quick. You are twisting the truth of my statements. NB as a nation and historically, a bunch of losers, is correct. Israel is only useful strategically (to others) ; and only ever has been through history. I am sure you know your history, that will save me the time of being long winded.
Thanks for the collected names of successful Jews (I am equally proud).
Forget the state son, get out of there, It’ll never work. My early practical suggestion is the best here so far. Migrate the whole of Israeli to Australia and live a useful life. More than welcome.

Is the god oF israel the same god of creation?
[its not a joke]

jesus said :by_their_deeds-will_we_known_them !

[who the them ?[we may be knowing] , he left that to us

apply the formula
to those who claim_to know_god

do all who do gods will really do gods will?

So we have a nutcase conned by a satanist to blow him/her-self up along with hundreds of people ,
or destroy a whole forrest ,
or polute a river?

Can it be said that is FOR the god_of ALL_creation ?
[the god who gives ALLof us OURvery lives?]



By their deeds [works ] they have revealed they are serving the life TAKER ,NOT the life GIVER.,

thus we are not fooled for a second]

So we have the people_of_GOD
AND
we KNOW them BY their DEEDS

Its obvious to blind freddy

NO killer can HONESTLY claim to be serving god!
[if they have blood of ANY of gods creating on their hands ,
we know its not gods_will they are serving]

God had mosus lead his people into the desert ,
yet gods own_people knew god not

none came out of it [except for their children]
to who much is given much is expected

surely here is a sign for the thinking child of god
[and who is not given to live from GOD]?

JESUS who knew god said
love_god [and] LOVE_NEIGHBOUR

how can JESUS ,a jew, say this ?

How can any who follow THE CHRIST , demand war
[demand murder] of anyone?

Talk about straining gnats [yet] swallowing a cameEL]

jesus called god with us?
we had but to see him to see our father?

But he was killed [his mortal/corpse hangs like a talisam , by those who drink his blood and eat his flesh call for ever-more war]

By their deeds will we know;
who loves their neighbour
who loves thus god

Just because un-believers become decievers
is no reason not to know the voice
of your only living loving god is all good ,
all grace and
all mercy.

good for you
OR god for all

<<"I wish BOAZ_David were more familiar with the actions of Christian missionaries and the tactics by which the religion has spread">>

BOAZ_David wrote:

(one day you must have a chat to my wife, she is from an evangelized tribe in Borneo)

David..I'm absolutely familiar with the tactics used. I was/am a missionary. But what you miss...is this:

a)Chronology.. prior to Constantine, the 'methods' used were the simple word of mouth, and as you can read of in Acts.

Dear Boaz,

You keep suggesting I look at an unreliable document.

I would love to have a chat with your wife and you. I feel we might be good friends if we could forget about the religions that divide us.

Missionary activities in themselves can be evil.

You may be familiar with the Penan in Sarawak and Brunei. A few years ago I heard about the destruction of their forests and their relocation in villages where they became dependent on handouts rather than continuing their way of life.

I organised a presentation on the situation and gave it in a number of places. Hopefully people would put pressure on Australian owned logging companies and the Malaysian government to stop or limit the destruction of the forests and the Penan way of life.

One of the places I gave my presentation was in a Baptist Church. After I finished the minister, visibly moved, got up and said, "This is terrible. We have to send missionaries."

What was terrible was the destruction of their way of life. Attacking their religious beliefs by missionising was continued destruction. Their way of life was unavoidably changing. Rather than trying to limit the destruction and ease their transition his first thought was to replace their mythology with his.

I was trying to help them preserve their way of life. He wanted to continue the destruction.

To Diver Dan:

Great suggestion for the Israelis to come to Australia. Improvement in comedy, water conservation, technology, literature, military effectiveness, delicatessen and classical music.

we do have plenty of desert [diverdan ,david]
but with good political connections
we could possably give israel the top end

but we dont want your wepons of war
so welcome home

leave your baggage in israel[and usa]
http://lataan.blogspot.com/2008/06/aipac-conference-hate-iran-week-gets.html

THE A.I.P.A.C. CONFERENCE - HATE IRAN WEEK GETS UNDERWAY IN WASHINGTON.
http://www.jewishjournal.com/thegodblog/item/mccain_tells_aipac_that_obama_would_endanger_israel_20080602/

The annual American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) conference
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull&cid=1212041459949
http://www.motherjones.com/mojoblog/archives/2008/05/8331_aipac_adl_ajc_r.html

Republican presidential candidate John 'Bomb Bomb Bomb, Bomb Bomb Iran' McCain launching into a hate tirade against Iran by accusing his likely presidential election opponent, Barack Obama, of having 'policies toward Iraq and Iran [that] would create chaos and endanger the United States and Israel'.

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/aipac-report-reveals-long-history,416207.shtml

AIPAC Report Reveals Long History of Activities Harmful to US
Members of the press, bloggers and law enforcement officials may request a free copy of our special 200 page report during the annual AIPAC Policy Conference being held this week in Washington, DC

http://www.jewishjournal.com/united_states/article/iran_sanctions_figure_large_in_aipac_lobbying_20080602/
Israel (which has at least 150/400 nuclear weapons) lobbies the US to violate the Nuclear Nonproliferation Treaty with Iran.
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/JF03Ak01.html

LBJ tapes show a strong connection to Israel
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080528/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_lbj_tapes_2
Tapes of Lyndon Johnson's Oval Office conversations, released to the public for the first time on Wednesday, reveal that the American president had a personal and often emotional connection to Israel, a scholar said.
Posted Jun 2, 2008 10:19 AM PST
Category: ISRAELI SPYING

Which explains why Johnson went along with the cover-up of Israel's attack on the USS Liberty
http://www.ussliberty.org/
http://www.antiwar.com/mcgovern/?articleid=12927
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7430141.stm

HELL FROM ABOVE: 111 COUNTRIES BAN THE USE OF CLUSTER BOMBS
Can you guess which countries are NOT included in that count? ....
http://desertpeace.wordpress.com/2008/06/02/hell-from-above-111-countries-ban-the-use-of-cluster-bombs/
http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_26881.shtml

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/motherofallscandals.html
http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/7015
http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11465476
McCain to AIPAC: I will stomp the people you tell me to stomp!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080602/ts_alt_afp/usvotemccainiran_080602143826

... no matter how many American lives and tax dollars it takes!
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0496/9604007.htm
http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/86890/
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/988778.html
http://lib.bioinfo.pl/blid:1066

Am an oldie now of 87 who felt deep sympathy for those Jews who were treated like non-humans by the Nazis.

Also backed the new Israelis in their early wars against the Arabs.

But do feel as the former ill-treated Jews gained confidence, they developed a surprising arrogant hatred against their Arab cousins almost akin to the hatred the Nazis developed against them.

It is believed much more fairness could have come into the situation with a common-sensible United Nations, as is still spoken about in university lectures.

The type of UN talked about during the Korean War, but a UN to become dominated by great-power elitism, the same great powers shutting their minds as Israel went illegally atomic, even classing a truly intelligent man like Mordecai as a criminal because he spoke up against it.

Right now with Condoleeza Rice virtually as unofficial spokesperson for what is left of the United Nations, leaves things in a horrible mess.

This is especially so in Iraq, where so much spin is being spun with Saddam's former quarter million Sunni Guard turned insurgents, now on the US pay-roll fulfilling the ridiculous Great Iraqi Awakening.

Cheers - BB, WA.

Dear David F :) you have made my day.....

Your reference to the Penan took me back to 1977 when I encountered some at Bario when I was among the Kelabit on orientation. I was at the pastors house assisting in a Deacons course, and when I came out of a room there were some very bare and scratched bums and loin cloths.. blow pipes..etc sported by some Penan tribespeople.

I'm not only familiar with them, I walked from Bario to Pa' Ramudu with some. I've got some classic pics of these noble people.

Their life is not all rosey and idilic as you imply. They would come out of the jungle from time to time and offer themselves to work for some food when they got weary of the Jungle or there was little food there.

If you goto Long Sukang (Sarawak) and look back toward the coast, you will only see secondary jungle. It wasn't cleared by timer companies, it was cleared by continuing slash and burn rice agriculture. Primary jungle was further to the interior.

Unfortunately, the problem with the timer is 'politically powerful well connected Malays and rich technology savvy Chinese.(in bed together)

The Timber has been a major source of political wheeling and dealing, and so many of the tribes people are caught up in it also.

One timber company in the Sukang area dug out wet padi ponds so the tribes people could cultivate wet rice rather than slash/burn primary jungle.
If you look at the 'logged' jungle in the 5th division..you can't even tell it's been logged. I have some photos.

It's a fascinating story.. the missionaries were invited by the tribes people in the 5th division. (one particular tribe) and that's how it became "Christianized". Its not a perfect situation.. I could go on and on.. with both joy and grief.

But I'm certainly glad to be interacting with one who knows the area.

The 'barriers' between us :) they are more 'here' (olo) than anywhere else.

Dear BOAZ_David,

We have wandered far afield from the original topic, and I am glad of that.

You wrote:

"Dear David F :) you have made my day....."

That may be the best thing I have done on the list.

You wrote:

"Their life is not all rosey and idilic as you imply. They would come out of the jungle from time to time and offer themselves to work for some food when they got weary of the Jungle or there was little food there."

I did not imply their life was rosy and idyllic. You inferred that I implied that. I just heard about their forest being destroyed and what was happening to them because of the timber, and my heart went out to them. I know the life of indigenous people can be full of stresses. My son lived with a tribal people in the Amazon basin for several years. He wrote a book about the stresses which caused the village to split up and part of the tribe to move away.

You wrote:

"It's a fascinating story.. the missionaries were invited by the tribes people in the 5th division. (one particular tribe) and that's how it became "Christianized". Its not a perfect situation.. I could go on and on.. with both joy and grief."

I would like to hear more about it from you.

You wrote:

"But I'm certainly glad to be interacting with one who knows the area."

I really don't know the area. I just read what I could about the people. You know the area.

"The 'barriers' between us :) they are more 'here' (olo) than anywhere else."

To remove the barriers I will contact olo and ask them to supply you with my email address. If you want to you can contact me directly.

Bushbred,

You say >>” But do feel as the former ill-treated Jews gained confidence, they developed a surprising arrogant hatred against their Arab cousins almost akin to the hatred the Nazis developed against them.”

You neglect the fact that the two sides have been at war for 60 years now, and that the combined arab armies invaded Israel three times during that period. It is no secret that the Arabs have a visceral hatred of the Jews and teach it to their children at school. And Hamas’s charter contains quranic references to the murder of Jews on judgement day, when even the rocks and the trees will assist the good muslim in killing the jew.

The UN is dominated by a hopelessly formulated Security Council which gave veto power to two of the largest, and most oppressive, dictatorships around, Russia and China. The fact that non-democratic countries got so much of a say in a supposedly democratic institution played the primary role in making the UN irrelevant.

Israel being a nuclear power has not hurt any regime in the middle east, except to the extent that the regimes knew they could not destroy Israel without being destroyed themselves. Israels nuclear weapons have not been used, nor threatened to be used, in any conflict Israel has been involved in. I challenge you to provide evidence or incidences of any significant negative consequences in the Middle East due to a nuclear armed Israel.

You say >>” This is especially so in Iraq, where so much spin is being spun with Saddam's former quarter million Sunni Guard turned insurgents, now on the US pay-roll fulfilling the ridiculous Great Iraqi Awakening. “

I wonder how it is you see this as being a bad thing. The Sunni awakening, beginning in Anbar province has brought the locals onside with the coalition and Maliki’s gov’t and effectively driven AlQaeda out of Iraq. Provinces like Anbar are at last peaceful enough that reconstruction can begin.

America didn’t go to Iraq to punish the Sunnis, although you seem unable to grasp this

TBC,

cont,

You say >>” last year an Iranian female judge stated that eventually Iran will find its own liberalization.”

Yes, you regularly quote this particular judge. One wonders how she feels about the fact that women are banned from pursuing higher education in 91 of 169 fields of study and must be taught in segregated classrooms. A woman may work with her husband’s permission, although many occupations are forbidden to women.

The hejab, or dress code, is mandatory in all public places for all women. Women must cover their hair and body except for their face and hands and they must not use cosmetics. Punishments range from a verbal reprimand to 74 lashes with a whip to imprisonment for one month to a year. Stoning to death is a legal form of punishment for sexual misconduct.

The legal age at which girls can be married is 9 years (formerly 18 years). Polygamy is legal, with men permitted to have four wives and unlimited number of "temporary wives" What a charming euphemism!! !!. In fact it can be said, broadly speaking, that a woman is worth half of a man under the law in Iran, and is akin to a minor who requires guardianship. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran

Prior to his election Khatami said, "One of the West’s most serious mistakes was the emancipation of women, which led to the disintegration of families.”
http://www.law.stanford.edu/publications/stanford_lawyer/issues/73/sl73_ReformingIran.pdf

I wonder how she feels about the women stoned to death for adultery or the fact that women judges are not actually allowed to judge cases in Iran, only to advise because women are emotional and cannot make fair judgements. http://www.iranfocus.com/en/women/amnesty-two-sisters-to-be-stoned-to-death-in-iran.html

Iran elected not to become a member of the UN Convention Elimination All Forms Discrimination Against Women since the convention contradicted Sharia law. This creates numerous problems in issues regarding rape, where the female is at fault by default. In such cases, the act of sexual penetration must be attested by at least four male Muslim witnesses of good character.

I wonder how many women are raped in the presence of four good men?? ?? ??

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_the_Islamic_Republic_of_Iran

PaulL

Your hatred for people who act in similar ways to the Israelis is stunning.

Go ahead nuke Iran ... that's what you blokes want ... now ... isn't it?

You are a bloody big nutjob Israeli propagandist!

"Also backed the new Israelis in their early wars against the Arabs. "

The Jews were not against the arabs, but returned to their own homeland, under legal UN Motions, voted upon by the entire world - including the islamic states. It is the arabs which were against the jews, making multi-state attacks even when there were no such creatures as muslim palestinians, and when all the land demanded now, were in arab hands.

" arrogant hatred akin to the hatred the Nazis developed against them. "

The nazi hatred was from the gospel indoctrinations. This is blatantly consistent with the medevial church's history.

"more fairness could have come into the United Nations"

The UN failed to issue a resolution condemning the multi-state arab attack on a UN established state, which was perpertrated with a declared goal of genocide. This was and remains the worst violation in the UN's history. The EU & all chrtians remain liable for allowing this by their silence and actually fostering of it.

"the same great powers shutting their minds as Israel went illegally atomic"

Israel is the only nation which has leigitamcy for owning such weapons - she would not exist a week without it. Those who advocate israel not be able to defend herself - are sorry that she exists and wants another holocaust as european christianity did. They are not concerned of the arabs at all - only with the Jew factor.

"This is especially so in Iraq, where so much spin is being spun"

The Iraq war was legitimate and it was won. The terrorism occuring there has nothing to do with the war, but this spin is a generic terrorism occuring everywhere there is any interaction with islamists - from china, india, to arabia and europe. The muslims, the EU and the UN were silent as over 700,000 Iraqu corpses were unearthed by US. The muslim martyrs must be told plainly:

FREEDOM FIGHTERS START AT HOME - AGAINST THEIR 57 REGIMES IN 57 ISLAMIC STATES - NOT IN SCHOOLS AND CAFES OUTSIDE THEIR COUNTRIES.

"Is the god oF israel the same god of creation?"

The God of Israel is the God of all - there is no other. Monotheism is logocal and true, via science, maths or any other thinking.

"jesus said :by_their_deeds-will_we_known_them !"

Good - and this is addressed to Europe: the world's biggest mass murderers and inventers of racist doctrines, touting exclusive kingdom keys instead of 'ONLY THE SOUL THAT SINNETH IT SHALL PAY'/OT; and horrific, false villifications of those who gave it a Light. JC & Mohammed have clearly harkened to the God of Israel, and turned cheek from Europe: Israel is returned, and this is not an evil thing - but a divine hand against evil:

'WE WILL NEVER SUPPORT THE RETURN OF THE JEWS TO *THEIR HOMELAND* BECAUSE THEY REJECTED JC' - Pope not so Pious.

Now muslims are turning Europe to Eurostan - because Europe rejected Mohammed. Howzat!? Instead of beautifying such an evil man, he must be condemned as a nazi-like figure who professed genocide - not letting Jews return to their land - while hating their presence in Europe's ghettoes. Christians will face different questions then they wish to choose by hiding behind Jesus.

Eventually, all christians & muslims will also see the light: all their alledged revelations, which contradict each other [both cannot be right!], are only steps towards the true ONE God. If christians get stuck with an alledged son, instead of the Father of all - it is paganism. Period.

THE MESSAGE MUST TRANSCEND THE MESSENGER.

Jeez, I swear TOO many of you are on the juice, some of you BIG time.
There's not an objective, pragmatic view given, anywhere!
The state of Israel was created by a peoples belief in God's willingness to help them to do what they needed to do. They didn't rely on any nation, because no other nation gave a rats! No one country was comfortable in receiving them. They also understood not to deliberate about God's will when it came to decision making, because regardless of choice, his will be done. This nation born of slaves, persecuted to buggery and back by most everyone, most of the time in most places decided, collectively,"If it is to be, it's up to me!" and went ahead and did what they determined best. It apparently wasn't God's will that they fail, nor has history shown it his will for them to fail subsequent.
Terrorism? If by acting in an assertive pro-active manner against those who profess the willingness and desire to remove evidence of their existence can be called terrorism, then those so terrorised would do well not to poke the bear, methinks...because Israel will ALWAYS hit back harder and longer to discourage and dishearten stupid behaviour...the same as we would in Australia if suitably provoked.

Please, you backers of a militarily nuclear Israel, are reminded that Israel way back in the 1970s broke a law that even the useless UN never had the guts to complain about.

An illegal act which even a born Jew, Henry Kissinger realised the danger giving warning about upsetting the balance of power among Middle East nations.

Also please take note that Iran, the country you hate so much has since its Persian days never militarily attacked another country.

Personally, I don't go much for Iranian's religous run politics neither, but do believe that the presence of a tiny nation like Israel with the atomic capacity to destroy a nation ten time its size, doesn't hold well for peace not only in the Middle East but the whole world.

Certainly we could do well with a competent global authority in this world.

Sorry to get back to the reminder that both the League of Nations and the UN were both partly patterned on the Kantian policy for global peace.

But rather than Kant's wish for an indestructable world policing power based on a Federation of Nations run by a Global Court, we now have Pax Americana with the contempuous political hide to send in
Condoleeza Rice to virtually call the UN tune.

Funny how 'God's will' is always in favour of the victor - regardless of the godlessness of the victory. Who would claim to know it other than a tyrant?

Well bennie, it's like this....
The reason successful organisations, even those of an actual or imagined criminal nature, are successful is not only because of choice, delivered and allowed by God, but because of determination.
It's God's will that there be a "loser" also, not so much for punitive reasons, moreso that lessons might be learnt about a course of action, so as to prevent similar unwanted results in the future.
So, "win" or "lose", God's will prevails. The question of God's will should never be contemplated during decision making because by default, it is God's will. Understand? It's not Godless at all. It's allowed by God.
Determination is the crucial element. It's what allows horse and jockey to win races by a nose. It doesn't matter how big the margin, moreso the doing with resolve greater than those around you.
For all the talk of Israel having a nuke, they haven't used it yet. Their obvious displayed determination and resolve, historically, allows fear into the hearts of those less resolved.
Hope that helps.