StevenImeyer, who offended you to come out swinging? Please do not lump the Qur`an, which contains only words from the Creator with other writings that may quote some of the Creator’s words and much of the words of people. The theory of evolution does not impact on my faith? Part of its package that leads to a reinforcement of the notion of “survival of the fittest” concerns me! My belief system seeks to also help the fit along with the not-so-fit who may otherwise be trampled by the fittest. Yet, the saddest irony is that religion is depicted falsely as the cause of violence when it is the cause of love, respect and appreciation of others.

Stickman, I tend to partly agree with you that this thread is degenerating, I cannot deny some of the responsibility, however, I am bombarded with offensive aspersions and accusations, should I ignore them or attempt to answer them? I chose to answer as much as I could, perhaps against my own better judgement, but definitely motivated by a sense of love for everybody. I wanted to extract myself out of this debate a week ago when I saw that it was starting to become circular, one just needs to look at PaulL, I have directed him to the answers to his questions, but he continues, unabated, like a badly broken record. I am not seeking sympathy. Perhaps I should ignore the posts from people who are appearing more on the offensive every time they write.

I think perhaps I should take a different tack. I will continue to post every time someone responds, if no one responds or OlO choose to close this particular article, then obviously that would be the end.

"My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." Michael H. Hart, THE 100: A RANKING OF THE MOST INFLUENTIAL PERSONS IN HISTORY, NY: Hart Publishing 1978, p33

So Boaz, am I supposed to leave my mind at the door and just believe your apologetics ignoring the words in your scriptures and their meanings and in the process, take the worst view of Islam, without any scriptural justification. Is this your way of Lording yourself on others?

"Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty, he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband.

"Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded "Read." So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God."

"In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumours of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, "An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human being." "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: "If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever." James A. Michener, "ISLAM: THE MISUNDERSTOOD RELIGION," in READER'S DIGEST (American edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70.
From: http://www.islam101.com/dawah/what_muhammad.html

Disclaimer: quoting from a website is not an endorsement for everything on the site.

With My love and Best wishes.

Thank you to OLO for hosting Mr Trad since he has been black banned from talk back radio.

This has been very instructional. I am now hoping for the Trivial Pursuit question, Who was the first recorded toy boy?

Dear Kaysar

I should assist you in understanding why debates of this nature do indeed degenerate into a kind of 'back and forth' of an increasingly callous nature.

FIRST.. you make 2 regular assertions which cause others to be most concerned (to us the mildest euphemism I can think of)

such as

1/ "God said" and then, you attach this phrase to the Quran.

then

2/ "Mohammad my beloved prophet"

Now.. on both counts you are in fact declaring other faiths, particularly Christianity "invalid".. but worse, the Quran describes the Christians as those with whom Allah: (9:30)

-Curses (Pikthal)
-fights against (Pikthal)
-May Allah destroy them (Shakir)

The situation is worse for the 'pagans and idolators'

The Christians(and Jews...Steven) are described as:

"deluded, away from truth (Yusuf Ali)"
"How perverse they are" (Pikthal)
"Turned away" (Shakir)

(This is hate speech and religious vilification)

All I've done is show how I, and my faith are specifically described by name in 'your' holy book which you describe as "God said"

In the case of Christians, the REASON they are described thus in the verse in Question is:

"the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah"

Notice now we are NOT condemned for any particular 'act' against Muslims....nope..its for ONE reason.. "The Messiah is the Son of Allah"

Well.. Kaysar.. we STILL say that, as does all mainstream Christianity.. even the Mormons and Jehovah's witnesses say that, (with different meaning though)

So, thus far, I've said nothing except what 'your' holy book says...about us.

Now..given such a harrowing indictment of 2 segements of humanity, I'm surprised that YOU are surprised that 'we' (Jews and Christians) take extreme exception to the suggestion that:

a)The Quran is 'God said'
b)Mohammad is a prophet.

Both those assertions will be attacked 'as if a matter of life and death' because in an Islamic state under a Caliph who would stone homosexuals, and punish 'shirk' that's what they would be.
You see, to 'be' Christian is the PROCLAIM publically, the Sonship of Christ.

Well K.TRAD,

I HAVE TO SIDE WITH BOAZ ON THIS ONE.

He at least is prepared to concede that he has NO EVIDENCE that his holy book (so-called) is the "word" of the creator of the universe.

You, on the other hand, seem to be labouring under the ILLUSION that you have evidence that your so-called holy book, the koran, really is the "word" of the creator of the universe.

Now who is being more reasonable?

--One who knows he has NO EVIDENCE for his unfounded beliefs and admits it freely?

--Or one who pretends, or perhaps FOOLS HIMSELF into thinking, that he has evidence for his unfounded beliefs?

The reality is almost certainly that neither "holy book" is the "word" of the creator of the universe.

Not unless the creator is the great divine comedian that is.

WHY CAN'T EITHER OF YOU LEAVE YOUR DELUSIONS BEHIND?

Thanks for your support STICKMAN

Boazy, Boazy.. my comment was aimed as much at you as at Keysar.. and if you are going to talk directly to Keysar, at least do him the courtesy of spelling his name correctly!

Likewise Keysar, I was not having a go at you specifically, just the general tone of this thread. Alas, I fear any such thread is doomed to a similar outcome.

I find all organised religion basically thoroughly distasteful. I find all of your texts abhorrent, in part at least. You can rationalise it away as much as you want, with talk of "context" but there is hateful sentiment in the Qu'ran and the Bible.

Another Sam Harris quote to leave you with. After listing a full four pages of quotes from the Qu'ran, lambasting infidels like myself and describing in detail the corner of hell reserved for me, he says:

"I cannot judge the quality of the Arabic perhaps it is sublime. But its contents are not. On almost every page, the Koran instructs observant Muslims to despise non-believers. On almost every page, it prepares the ground for religious conflict. Anyone who can read passages like those quoted above and still not see a link between Muslim faith and Muslim violence should probably consult a neurologist."

And yes, Keysar, I know the bible (especially OT) contains similar.

You talked about Danny Pearl earlier in the thread, stating his murderers were merely that - murderers. But like it or not, that crime was committed in the name of Islam. As was 9/11. Whenever "faith" is held to be a virtue, you will find people willing to take that faith to its nth degree and committ heinous crimes in its name.

If we take faith to be a strongly held belief without need of any evidence, then the above are inevitable consequences, as it is that some Christians will find it acceptable to murder abortionists to prevent greater evil (in their worldview).