Not quite, Paul.L

>>You raise an argument I have heard a number of times from OLO posters. That by trying to identify the extremists we are somehow stirring things up and inflaming the situation...to suggest that pointing out or attacking extremist groups, causes the problem is wrong in almost every sense.<<

For the record, I do not believe, nor have I ever suggested that, identifying extremists stirs or inflames anyone, or that "pointing out or attacking extremist groups" is wrong. .

What *is* the issue here is that waging war, as Boaz does, by constantly attacking and denigrating their religion in general, as opposed to addressing the lunatic fringe who are actually causing the damage, inexorably adds to the number of people who believe that their cause is just.

I am aware that he cannot help himself. The fact that someone holds a religion other than his own is anathema to him. But to be opposed by one that actually believes the same stuff - homosexuality is evil, women are subservient, sinners will burn in hell, adultery is a mortal sin - in fact, all sex is basically sinful and dangerous - must be galling in the extreme.

We atheists can only look on in despair, as extremists from both sides each goad the other into more hazardous expressions of their love for their own religious tenets, and hatred of the other's.

You see, it is not about "identifying extremists". That's fair game, and I think it is entirely reasonable for the press to highlight actions that appease extremism. Fortunately, they are isolated incidents, few and far between, and they receive the appropriate level of publicity and general scorn.

>>The British experience should show us all that you cannot deal with extremism by brushing it under the carpet.<<

No-one is "brushing it under the carpet".

But whereas extremist Christians believe the solution is to attack what they see as the source (i.e. Islam), and to convert all Muslims to Christianity, sane people believe that it is possible for different religions to coexist, and will continue to work towards that end.

Pericles,

Your comment is well thought and articulated.

Few tend to forget that many muslims critcise extremists and that extremism considers any other muslim not sharing their view to be an enemy. Most victims of Islamism violence are, in facts, other Muslims.

As an average Muslim, seems there is a minority in our camp with Nazi interpretation of our faith, there is a minority in Boaz's camp who loves to promote this interpretation cause it serves their greater cause, and lots of silent 'sighing' people in between.

Peace as always,

Hi Pericles.. that last post of yours (the last 2 actually) were bordering on reasonable.

<<constantly attacking and denigrating their religion in general,

as opposed to addressing the lunatic fringe>>

Then:

<<I am aware that he cannot help himself. The fact that someone holds a religion other than his own is anathema to him.>>

People not following 'my' religion are anathema? Exactly.. right on.. and here is where I got that from (sarcasm warning)

"For God so LOVED the world that He gave his only son" (John 3:16a)

"As the Father has sent me, so I send you" John 20:21

Sounds so harsh doesn't it.. God actually cares...for you, and FH and Keysar etc..

Keep looking.. search out.. study, research, investigate.. and you will not find a syllable calling Christians to make violent war on non Christians or to subdue them militarily or to tax them for their unbelief. (but you WILL find that in 'you know what')You WILL also find not a few but MANY of that faith preaching that very thing today. (Including in UK)

Where do you get the idea that Christians believe all sex is sinful?
*Bewildered look*

I'll tell you what kind of sex IS sinful..that with little children, and those outside of your wife!

FH has joined the discussion again. Pericles.. you need to understand that FH does NOT accept the Hadith as authoritative..the secondary source of Islamic law..he also is of the belief that 'most muslims' share that belief.

Unless he wishes to alter than 'position statement' now:)

That's why I've said repeatedly 'His' version of Islam does not bother me. FH appears to be of the view that 'true' Christianity is in fact "Pseudo Islam"...believing only that the Lord Jesus is 'one of many prophets'...

So, in that discussion, (olo back when) I could reasonably conclude that he does see that verse 9:30 as applicable to Christians today. Fortunately he is a rather independant soul with a warm and friendly disposition.

Fellow Human,

I must say I am pleased to see you back. Since talking with you, and having since read Ed Huseeins "The Islamist" I am more aware that there are other, authentic yet moderate, paths for Islam in the west. I wonder if you have read the book and what it says about sufism.

I wonder what you have to say about Keyser Trad and the things he is reported as saying in the media. Is he really a moderate, as he suggests, or is he another of Wassim Dourehi's ideological bretheren?

I believe that Keysar Trad, being a public figure, should not be able to hide from questions which are relevant to the issue under discussion on this thread.

What do you have to say about Hizb-ut-Tahir in Australia and in Britain? Finally what do you make of the British poll that found that 37% of muslims aged between 16 and 24 would prefer to live under sharia law.

Please don't misunderstand, I am not looking to attack you, I'm just interested in your thoughts on these issues

Leaving aside your extraordinary mangling of the meaning of the word "anathema", Boaz, I'd like to comment on this little gem.

>>search out.. study, research, investigate.. and you will not find a syllable calling Christians to make violent war on non Christians<<

In which case, how do justify your own rabble-rousing? If your Bible doesn't tell you to do it, what justification do you have for your actions?

I suppose you believe that just because you don't actually stand up and say "kill all Muslims" in those exact words, you are guiltless?

I have been trying for years to get you to understand that your constant denigration and persistent vilification of Islam may actually be construed as exhortation to violence.

Remember your response to Cronulla?

>>Perhaps it's about time most of us grew some testicles and stood.. up... and were counted.<<

>>Genghis Khan had a few clues. He insisted that each province or village have 1000 men in continual training and on standby for call up as needed. If each major suburb had 50- 100 guys..Cronulla, Brighton Le sands, Bondi, Maroubra Manly etc etc..<<

Subtle, but nonetheless clear. Time to fight, boys.

And this, constantly recurring theme:

>>if anyone wishes to come here, they are expected to embrace [our culture], and if they have religious prohibitions about the way we do things....DON'T COME. Is there a war ? You betta believe it ! Failure to address these issues, will result in Tribalism and ethnic conflict of the worst kind.<<

Subliminal message, violent resistance is your duty.

So what is it to be, Boaz?

An objective of peace and coexistence, with neither side imposing their religious beliefs on others, and at the same time tolerant of the other's wishes to act in accordance with those beliefs?

Or your "be like us, or get out" approach, while all the time needling, denigrating, insulting...?

There is nothing peaceful or peaceable about your approach, Boaz, so when are you going to start conforming with the stated tenets of your chosen religion, "not... a syllable calling Christians to make violent war on non Christians"

As always Pericles, you have an interesting (but predictable) slant on things.

-Self defense is a legal right.
-No convoys of 'Bra Boys' went anywhere near Lakemba to trash the mosque
-Police were deliberately not intervening against the convoy of cars which went to Maroubra. (it's in the recorded messages)
-Lebanese from the convoy went rampaging through streets of Cronulla and Maroubra with baseball bats, knives and firearms.

Putting all that together, there is abundant evidence for normally peaceful citizens to be ready, prepared and trained for such invasions.

IF...the police were sufficiently manned, deployed and ready as they should have been, such that they could control such sudden eruptions of anti social violence... who would be saying anything?

Fortunately, it appears that NOW...they are in fact ready and have the numbers. Hence, you haven't heard much along those lines from me since then.

It gets back to 'politics' Pericles and you should know this.
When the Premier of the State is the 'Member for Lakemba'.. of course this has no bearing whatsoever on things...right?

War... is both cultural and physical. All wars are fought on many fronts, including the propoganda one.

You say I'm stirring hate.. I maintain I am exposing it.

speaking about GEMS.. try this one:

<<and at the same time tolerant of the other's wishes to act in accordance with those beliefs?>>

Here is that 'other belief'.

"FIGHT those who do not believe in Allah and the last day"

Sorry old son, the weight of evidence is on the side I'm arguing.

I have no desire whatsoerver for people to be welcomed here who have as one of their foundation beliefs a command to fight you and me, and a belief that people who believe as I and other Christians do, are cursed by Allah in this life as well as the next, and should be, to quote Shakirs translation of 9:30 "be destroyed"

ACT .. according to those beliefs? u have to be kidding.