Keysar, the question is not whether or not you should have the right to put your point of view. That is not in dispute. The question is whether it is remotely appropriate to attempt to curtail someone else's academic freedom. This is an issue that should concern us as Muslims, particularly at a time when there is talk of setting up a US-style campus watch on Australian universities. Muslim academics and academics who are sympathetic to Muslims will be first in the firing line if/when that eventuates. We will look a lot more convincing arguing for our own intellectual freedom if we have shown a bit of respect for the intellectual freedom of others.

Keysar Trad: supporter of the lunatic Halali, has the cheek to refer to “misunderstandings being generated in the media”. We have all heard enough of this man’s propaganda from his own mouth to know that there is no misunderstanding of Islam, in the media or elsewhere.

The “different standards” he talks about in relation to what is said about Islam and what Muslims can say in response, is just another example of his inability to see or tell the truth. Australians have been browbeaten into being ‘nice’ to Muslims: vilification laws have been enacted, particularly in Victoria, where one is not allowed to quote something from the Koran without facing a jail sentence.

Trad’s points about what he should be able to do in a secular society are exactly what he CAN DO in Australia – what he is doing now! The strange thing is that secularism is a red rag to Muslims, whose religion is more important than the state!

By claiming to be “…not seeking to dismantle secularism”, but “…attempting to be constructive in approaching its application”, Trad has really put his foot in his mouth.

The very fact that Muslims in Australia allow the likes of Trad and Halali to go around mouthing off is enough evidence that Muslims are definitely a threat. These ‘moderate’ Muslims we are always hearing about (but not from) seem content to allow them to get our backs up, and the fact that secularism and Islam don’t go together – but will be used by Muslims to meet their own ends – says it all.

Keysar Trad

What is it with you Muslims who feel qualified to comment on topics clearly way out of your depth? When YOU get a Ph.D - or even a bachelor's degree for that matter - in ANYTHING, let alone medieval history and literature, perhaps THEN you might have an opinion that justifies sullying OLO.

Until then, back in your box. When are you people EVER going to stop your non-stop whingeing and "poor me" victim shtick? No wonder the Arab world continues to slink back to the 5th century.

Dear Kaysar...

this is a 2 edged sword.

Yes... we must have the freedom to defend our faith.

and..

Others must have the freedom to criticize it.(Including mine)

I've watched you, you scallywag.... on either Current Affair or Today 2night.. 4get which, debating with Katie McKullock about the Islamic school proposal for Camden.

I noted also the 5000+objections to the Anangrove 'prayer hall' which were 'sensitively' BULLDOZED by a coalition of Abbas Aly and Jeremy Bingham, and now..they seem to be doing the same to Camden.
What HAPPENED to 'democracy' there?

But you? grrr.. you sat there with a big cheezy grin on your face and said.. (with a straight face) "I feel sorry for them that they are so misinformed about Islam as a religion"
then you said: (quote)

ISLAM and DEMOCRACY

"Islam encourages full participation in decision making, and that's what democracy is all about"

Actually.... that's either an outright lie or.. you don't follow the Islam of the Quran and Mohammad, or..you are just trying to hoodwink us.

1/ Participation by WHOM? (dhimmis, Jews, Christians and polytheists?)

I cannot imagine that if the Quran says (regarding idolators/polytheists) "Kill them wherever you find them" that such ideological vermin (as 'Islam' views them) (such as CJ Morgan, Pericles, Vanilla, Ginx, TRTL, Robert... to name but a few of our own 'polytheists' (atheists=Idolators/polytheists in Islam) would be offered a part in the 'decision' making process in an Islamic state...can you?

2/ Full Participation WHERE? err in an Islamic state? in a 'Western democracy where Muslims are a minority status'? aah..probably more like it.

3/ Under WHAT system of Government?

IF...you believe "Islam" allows FULL participation from ALL members of a pluralist community, then.. ARGUE it...from Islamic scriptures. DO NOT try to argue it from "places" (like Turkey, Malaysia or Indonesia.)

BUT.. don't pick and choose abrogated verses which have been replaced by other later ones and..DON'T use Hadith traditions unless you are quite happy for them to be used to criticize Mohammad and Islam

Keyser, your problem, from where I sit anyway, seems to be that your actions do not agree with your words. If I read the Koran, I find a comparatively benign exposition of how Moslems should engage with unbelievers with respect and adhere to the principles of democracy. However, when I hear the rants of some of your clerical friends, I find the opposite.

Mind you, there are also some who would call themselves Christians, about whom I could make the same complaint, so from that you make take some solace.

David

I was approached by Keysar to publish a response to Bronwyn Winter's article, and I was happy to do so. Whatever anyone's personal views of him are, he has gone to the trouble to engage in this debate, and I think deserves to be treated on the merits of his arguments. If you want to insult him, that says more about you than it does about him.

It gets difficult to convince people to write for OLO if posters are just going to call them names. If this thread doesn't pick-up its act we will start deleting any responses that are even vaguely a flame. Some of the above are perilously close to being just that, and perhaps cross the line - we have that under consideration at the moment.