Boaz,

"Pericles, FH does NOT accept the Hadith-as-authoritative"

Incorrect. What I said is that in the muslim belief system there is a difference between God's word (Quran) and the prophet's sayings (hadith). Hadith was collected decades and centuries after the prophet's death (pbuh) and follows strict science of narration. There is 5% or less of the hadith is in circulation between Muslims.

"you will not find a syllable calling Christians to make violent war on non Christians .."

Ok will bite :) So what was the Spanish inquisition? Hitler never missed a church service and was quoting straight from the Bible (start with his April 1922 speech on the German-gov-archives-website).

There are people with good or bad conscience Boaz. Religion mirrors what they have inside. If you read the news there are militant Hindus and Buddhists. There are also charitable peaceful atheists. Who are you to judge?

Hi Paul,

Thanks I enjoyed our previous discussion too.
Your questions in order:
- I never knew Keysar except through this article and his comments on the thread. He appears knowledgeable, patient and persistent. He holds more Orthodox views than myself but I respect his orthodoxy as his right. I have seen no evidence of disrespect or attempt to impose his views on others.
- Hizb-alTahrir: From what I know of them they have little to no followers and are perceived as more of 'frustrated youth group' than religious or political group.
- Shariaa Poll: that’s another 'boogyman' statistic that does not tell me anything. To get a concensus about Shariaa (Arabic for Law) you can't poll it but research it properly for two key reasons:

• it depends whether you see it at the concept level or the literal content level. Here is a clarifying example: A serial graffiti offender: at the concept level, his penalty should be of the same (ie spent a number of years cleaning graffiti). At the literal level, he can loose a limb.
• Which aspect of the shariaa law are they willing to live under? Social (Divorce,inheritence) or criminal?

Peace,

Dear FH.. I hope ur still there :)

wow.. you might find some interesting insights at the thread I just openedup "Interfaith experience".. it was quite mind blowing.

Just IMAGINE.. (out of all the participants here, only 'you' can imagine both sides of this conversation..because u know me and you also know the types I was dialoging with)

At the MindBodySpirit festival, I rocked up to the 'Islam' stand.. with some Osama look alikes all there. I thought hmm I should use this as an opportunity to confirm or deny some of my 'pet' topics.

I began with Sam (an Afgan) aged 27 and without revealing my 'true identity' asked him in passing about "Does the Quran contain..or 'is' the word of Allah" Yes he said..'The word'... and then I asked if it is applicable 100% to today.."yes" he said.

Then after he referred me to the 'big shot' a Saudi, I asked him to read 9:30 to me, from the Quran they had just given me.

Well..u know what it says, I've quoted it so many times here anyway..
and there I am.. standing in front of him as a Christian..and he is reading "they are perverse, cursed by Allah" :) and of course.. I asked him if this applies to today..and his answer was as I knew it would be..yes.

Then he 'called' my 9:30 and raised it a Surah 19:88 and following.
He did this to underline how serious and offensive to Allah is the idea (for all time) that he 'has a son'....

Now..you have to picture this visually.. I was the same smiling bloke I was to you, no animosity..and this bloke has just emphasises how much I am cursed and hated by Allah.

I responded by saying this "Now..as a Christian missionary, I will show you the grace of God"...and shook his hand with warmth and gave him blessing. (but not approval:)

....continued/

We spoke about 9:29 also, and honestly, they absolutely confirmed the understanding I've presented here..no hesitation whatsoever.

I totally appreciated their honesty, because their view is held sincerely.. they really believe this stuff.

Interestingly, the Saudi bloke went to great lengths to explain that he did not want to give a false impression of Islam, which later I might find out was misleading.. "I won't tell you it is a religion of peace" in the context of our disussing 9:29.

"The jihad will continue to the end of the world" he said.

You might be tempted to 'categorize' these blokes into some 'whacko' pigeon hole.. but they were not like that.

One of them from Oman (white robe, long beard) came out our Christian stand later and recorded a fairly lengthy statement of the Gospel by me, and in that I emphasized the finality of Christ, rather than the deficiencies in Islam or Mohammad, and of course.. outside of OLO (where 'issues' are discussed) that's my style. Even though he asked me to be frank and say all that was in my head.. I'm not going to use that as a 'mohammad whacking' exercise but a 'Christ promoting' one.

I showed him some examples of 'textual issues' (using Mark 1:1) and explained how our scriptures came about.

In the end, he requested of me some 'final words' so I gave him a doxology type statement..(like this one)

"To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy—to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen."

but not those exact words.. I was working from the hip and memory.
take care.

JH- "Hitler never missed a church service and was quoting straight from the Bible". You are kidding aren't you? Hitler was noted as a "free thinker" even as a youth and rarely if ever attended Mass once he left the parental home. His quoting Bible passages does not make him a practicing Christian, either. While he rejected the paganistic nonsense of his Nazi cohorts, his religious views were decidedly odd, using Christian doctrine to support his racial notions ("Jesus was an Aryian killed by the Jews").

From where do you get the figure "only about 5% of the hadiths are supported by Muslims"? Surely this figure would vary from sect to sect? Some reject them altogether, of course ( a tiny minority).

Viking13,

No I am serious and my comment is usually supported by clear documented evidence (German-gov-archives). My point to Boaz and to you that an evil person will use a peaceful tolerant religion to mass murder millions of innocent Jewish people.

Sample below:

"My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded only by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth!... after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before in the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross. As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice.... Hitler, Munich on 12 April 1922

"Just as the Jew could once incite the mob of Jerusalem against Christ, so today he must succeed in inciting folk who have been duped into madness to attack those who, God's truth! seek to deal with this people in utter honesty and sincerity.. Munich, 28 July 1922

"Which faith conquers the other is not the question; rather, the question is whether Christianity stands or falls.... We tolerate no one in our ranks who attacks the ideas of Christianity... in fact our movement is Christian. We are filled with a desire for Catholics and Protestants to discover one another in the deep distress of our own people. Passau, 27 October 1928.

Regarding the hadith in circulation, there are a number of studies by AlAzhar University about common / popuar hadith in circulation and most of them agree on 200-300 hadith in circulation. AlAzhar is a reference for sunnis so you maybe right re other sects. My personal view it should still be low as Islamic belief is mainly concerned with the Quran regardless of sect.

Peace,

Sorry, Boaz, I couldn't resist.

>>In the end, he requested of me some 'final words'<<

Is this perhaps a euphemism for:

"Will you please just shut up and go away?"