"APOLOGIES to all non_'technical' readers... this_might_hurt."

Well, it's not so much non-technical readers who struggle through a Boaz post. It's more the non-UFO-conspiracy-pamphlet-and-website readers who have trouble with the misplaced capitalisation for emphasis, posting your own inner dialogue as a form of punctuation, the use of new paragraphs where all you need is a full stop, and the routine non sequiturs in which you go from a subject marginally related to the discussion topic into bible quotation.

A Boaz post usually scores highly on the Crackpot Index (math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html) in several categories, including:

1 point for every statement that is widely agreed on to be false.

2 points for every statement that is clearly vacuous.

3 points for every statement that is logically inconsistent.

5 points for each such statement that is adhered to despite careful correction.

5 points for each word in all capital letters (except for those with defective keyboards).

20 points for every use of science fiction works or myths as if they were fact.

Boaz,

" F.H.. the reason I've not shifted from day one, is that I'm still a committed follower of Christ"

Many of my friends of your faith have a problem seeing you as 'committed follower of Christ'.

On topic, my point above is clear as day: Its not scripture or what is written but how do people / individual interpret it or contextualize it. From your own words regarding the Bible and the OT vs NT, history proves that the followers of the peaceful/passive version persecuted the followers of the violent version which does not make any sense. If it is about scripture, then we should look no further than the OT.

Can I ask you to be true follower of Christ and Aussie manners and don't force a religious debate on fellow Aussies on this forum? you can either use the general comments section or private emails.

Will do lunch next time in Melbourne, this way I can guarantee you won't have the 'mouth' to talk about my faith :-)

KatieO,

I am unable to see how we can get together and co-exist by digging in the 10th century books (either by Muslims, Christian missionaries or Pope Urban II).

Islam is a faith not a nationality. Australian Muslims are proud Australians. We work hard, pay our taxes, raise our children and contribute to the economic success of our country. Even the militant Boaz will confirm to you that I break my back assisting Australian companies exporting products to the Middle East. A leading bank in Australia has a Muslim CEO who managed to turn it into a global AUSTRALIAN competitive bank.

On the same token, American Muslims are also proud Americans and established a large community charity project to assist the homeless (which is a bigger problem in the US):
www.projectdowntown.org. The examples are endless.

Ginx, Sancho and Pericles,

Thank you for being true Aussie samaritans and standing up for a fair go. Its your comments that encourages me to keep coming back to OLO.

Peace as always,

KatyO, are you sure that you are living in the same world as rest of us? I do not see Muslim countries invading and occupying their neighbours, but I do see the Secular/Christian US invading and occupying Iraq and Afghanistan, I see the poor Palestinian people being squeezed or interned into the biggest open air prison in the world known as “Gaza” and then not even permitted access to the most basic necessities and their democratically elected government having all its revenues blocked by the Israelis.

I see Muslim Somalia invaded a second time, this time using Ethiopian troops and you say that Muslims are expansionist? I see Russia occupying Chechnya, I see India occupying Kashmir, I see the US operating Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib. I see US misadventures making you and me paying 50% more for our petrol than we did before their invasion of Iraq, as a result of this, I see the cost of all foods skyrocketing, I see our interest rates rising, I see so much suffering in this world, brought on by the powerful countries against the less powerful, after that, I see them saturating the media with selective access to information, all this at the same time that they trumpet freedom of the media, they run the most deceptive propaganda known in history, just read some of Noam Chomsky or Naomi Klein’s work, so I do not know which world you are observing.

KatyO, I cannot convert you and am not even trying. God said: You cannot guide whom you love, God Guides those who sincerely wish to be guided. (often translated as God guides whom He wills, but I have explained in my writings that the Arabic has both meanings). Like I said, I was minding my own business until my name was brought into this debate.

Boaz, what I said was that this is not in the original Arabic, I did not say that it was not on your link, so I am suggesting that this is a fabricated Hadith, in translations, words in bracket are the translator's opinion.

Love &Best wishes

I wanted to use my second post for this 24 hours on another red herring posted by KatyO, that relating to the verse: Believers, do not ask about things, that if they were revealed to you, would displease you” and the Hadith she quoted on this.

This verse is about hypotheticals on what is lawful and what is unlawful. It is supported by another Hadith that KatyO did not bother to quote that says that God had left some matters without mentioning their legality because He wanted to make life as easy for you as possible, (because the seriousness of these matters is not as grave as the ones mentioned). So God is angered when someone makes incessant questions in order to create prohibitions. Neither the verse nor the Hadith quoted by Boaz have anything to do with science, but rather all to do with religious dos and don’ts. So basically, Islam was discouraging the creation of further unnecessary rules and small detail so that life does not become too onerous for people.

In fact Islam encourages scientific observation, experimentation and discovery, our ancestors took the pre-Christian Greek scientific theories into the lab and built on that body of knowledge.

The first word revealed from the Qur`an was “Iqra”, a word that carries the three meanings: read, recite, or repeat (as in repeat after me). There are frequent calls in the Qur`an for people to reflect, contemplate, think and ponder. God in fact says that He raises those with knowledge in degrees. He also says that those with knowledge are more in awe of Him because science and knowledge does lead sincere people to reflect on the Greater Power that makes order in this chaos, the Greater Power that makes everything work, the Greater Power that distinguishes a living body with a soul and a dead body without a soul, knowledge is given to us as a gift from God Almighty. Ignorance is of the Devil. Our parable of the tree is unrelated to knowledge, in fact, God taught Adam the names of all things.

Love and best wishes.

"I see Muslim Somalia invaded a second time"
because it's a haven for warlords and Islamists, as well as being a failed state. Or is that west's fault too?

"I see India occupying Kashmir"

Kashmir is part of India. How can it occupy itself?

"I see the US operating Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib."

As unfortunate as those places are, they pale into insignificance against the numbers of Ba'hai, Zoroastrians and Christians thrown into gaol (if not murdered) in just one Islamic country. Plus of course gays, apostates and "adulterers" murdered as well.

"I see US misadventures making you and me paying 50% more for our petrol than we did before their invasion of Iraq, as a result of this, I see the cost of all foods skyrocketing, I see our interest rates rising" You're an economist now? And the state of the world economy is all the US's fault? If Al Qaeda stopped blowing up Iraqi oil pipelines, oil might be a bit cheaper, might it not?

Dear FH... your last post is one of the reasons I didn't get too doctrinally 'pushy at our last meeting:)

If one compared your understanding of Islam, with say, that of those attending IISNA, there would be a very clear difference.

Salafist and Wahabist Islam is to me, very very much closer to the Islam of Mohammad, but.. your understanding is more a 'situational ethics' approach.. as you mention "how people interpret and understand"... but the problem with that approach, is that it makes the documents almost meaningless in themselves.

Let me give you an example.

Assertion 1/ "Mohammad is the best of all mankind"

Assertion 2/ "MOhammad is our beloved prophet and our glorious example"

Now.. you don't have to be a rocket scientist to realize that any one with even half a brain would want to know
- "What did Mohammad DO"? (that we may emulate him)
-"What did Mohammad SAY"? (that we may obey him)

For me, that is the starting point, and the beginning of understanding.

What 'you' do is present a whole lot of philosophy about 'The nature of God' as you did at our Macca's meeting.. what you said seemed more like a romanticization of how 'you' want God (and Mohammad) to be like, which you then read/projected back on the textual foundations of the faith.

Now.. I'm not like the German Missionary on our orientation course who , when a Muslim professor confessed "I don't know all the answers" said "Yes..that is because your god is DEAD" (Germans have a rather hmmm.. 'jarring' idea about communication:)

No, I listened, thought, and reflected. Now.. my reflections are confirmed :) and as I have said on many occasions.. "If my war is with the salafists and wahabists, then why do you concern yourself with my war" ? It is not 'your' Islam that I am attacking, but theirs. If anything, you should join me in that 'war'.....

..continued.