Muslims can condemn this attitude until the cows come home and nothing will change because rape and degradation of women is part of Islam.

FH, you say "rape in most Muslim countries is punishable by death or life sentence." Silly, false statement. If you have any knowledge of Islamic societies, the burden is always upon women.I ran across this today aboutEgypt
http://www.manalaa.net/eid_a_festival_of_sexual_harrasement

Consider the issue of rape in Pakistan. I guess what you mean is that, yes, rape is punishable by death but only the victim because she doesn't have 4male witnesses.

A report on the status of woman can be found inthe UNs "Arab Human Development Report 2002" (search Internet!), by Arab experts about the discrimination/prejudice against women in the Arab (ie, Muslim) world. It addresses the widening gaps in freedom, women's empowerment and knowledge in the Middle East.

Rape? It seems to characterize Islam in a way that is unique in the world, from Mohammed until current events. Yes, Islams great man was a rapist - unless taking a woman and marrying her the night after killing her husband and father is not rape.

Do a google search for "Europe" "rape" and "Muslims". Why is it that Muslims are responsible for over half of reported rapes in Scandinavia, if they are 1 to 5% of population?

But then again, what to expect when there are things like this:
The Messenger of Allah said, It is not right that any human being should prostrate to another human being, and if it were right for a human being to prostrate to another human being I would have ordered the women to prostrate to her husband due to the greatness of this right upon her. By Him in whose Hand is my soul, if from his foot to the crown of his head there was a wound pouring forth pus, and she (the wife) came and licked that, then she would (still) not have fulfilled his right. Reported by Ahmad (3/159) and others. Its chain of narration declared good by al-Mundhiree, at-Targheeb wat-Tarheeb (3/75), also occurs in S[a]heehul Jaami' (no.7250)

Kactuz

Sandmonkey has more information of the sexual harassment problem:
http://www.sandmonkey.org/2006/10/30/the-eid-sexual-harassment-incident/

Time after time after time these things and worse happen and Muslims give us the same excuses. There is a deep pattern here and yet Muslims refuse to ask themselves the hard questions.

They will say it is just a few men, it is cultural, others do it, it is unislamic, the prophet said this or that and bla bla bla.
There are so many evils that seem to be associated with Muslims – to name a few: honor killings, FGM - female genital mutilation, forced marriages, polygamy, slavery, wife beating, stonings, domestic abuse, beheadings, beatings, oppression of women in so many ways: dress, education, legal status, work opportunities, etc… Don’t let anybody say these are "isolated" cultural practices, because they are not. Let's not forget to mention Coptic women abducted http://www.copts.net/demands.asp
or hindu women taken for wives against their will
http://web.mid-day.com/news/world/2005/november/123248.htm

Yet Muslim make excuses and it is never Islam's fault.

I am sure that Irf and FH would never do these things or hurt people, but they will not take a stand and face the sorry truth about Islam, and so they, too, contribute to the hate and violence that is inherent to Islam. You cannot trust them to defend your rights or protect your lives (or women in general). They think Mohammed was a great guy, so if he did the things that Islamic traditions say he did, then that says it all. Might as well consider Jack the Ripper as an example of respecting women.

Sandmonkey is wrong, he says this national shame will be "exposed and confronted". No it won't - we will get silence or excuses. Who knows, maybe the jews made them do it.

There is no hope. Because Muslims refuse to look at the evil soul of Islam and acknowledge the despicable things in the Quran and hadiths, things will get worse and worse. Blood will flow and innocents will be hurt.

Kactuz

ROB513264

I'm saying that young males, being hormonally charged would welcome the opportunity to have a peek at naked females.

I stand by my comments that to show off our privates in public is to invite unwelcome attention.

Any girl who emphasizes her sexuality in her dress, is clearly asking for 'attention'. The issue is...'whos' ? She is not just dressing to 'feel good' because she, being human, is fully aware of the impact the display of her cleavage or breasts or bum or privates, not might, but 'will' have on passing males. So, what she is mainly doing, is seeking to attract a male of her preference rather than all males.

When she encounters a male to whom she is attracted, she may well give him the opportunity to indulge in more intimate social and physical contact.

I have a number of problems with this.

1/ A man will be attracted to her primarily for her sexual assets.
2/ Not only a particular man, but most men will be aroused at the sight.
3/ Those she rejects, may well feel unhappy, and resort to anti social abuse etc.

I prefer not to describe this as 'her fault/his fault' but as human nature.

The same logic applies to males who are 'eye turning' who use their sexuality to attract females who they wish to use on that basis only.
A male who dresses to be a (sexual)chic magnet, and who gets, uses and discards a girl as a conquest, is as bad as a girl who allures a man for the same reason in my view.

The major problem I have with male or female sexuality on public display is that it is suggestive of a flawed foundation for human relationships, and any relationship taken up on that basis is likely to fail once the honeymoon wears of and they discover 'love is blind but marraige is a real eyeopener' kind of thing.

No amount of 'good sex' can make up for a lousy personality in the totality of life.

Benjamin, Dee.

Firstly Dee - my post was to point out that while the agenda of some aspects of Islam is indeed. conquering the west, to tar all the islamic sects with that brush is far too simple.
There are a lot of pissed off islamic people being bombed right now. We're not really giving them much cause for hope, and while I can see that some elements of western interfence in the Middle East could be seen as altruistic, there's plenty there for them to be cynical about. Perhaps we should be taking a long hard look at how the western world has been interacting with the east over the years, and ask whether or not we've contributed to this problem.

Benjamin - I've no problem with organising resistance to offensive people, and I do believe the sheikh's comments were nothing short of inflammatory and stupid. I an not defending them, but I am asking for perspective. What Danny Nalliah said concerned me more, because he wasn't merely preaching to his followers, he was asking them to spread their sphere of influence. This is the same kind of politicised rhetoric we fear (and rightly) from certain elements (note this phrase - certain elements) of Islam. But it's also concerning when coming from the Christian right.

I didn't make any reference to pastors condemning the koran, though I'll admit my point there was pretty vague but more a frustration that these kinds of comments are nothing new, though they come at a time when this issue has been totally politicised.

I guess what I'm saying is put this in perspective and don't assume that the Islamic faith is the only problem here. Some elements of islam are causing problems, but around a fifth of the world's population is islamic and that being considered there isn't that much by way of violence against the west.

Since when did we care about what these nutbags said anyway?

Philo no religion has the right to affect a non-believer. If I am wrong , let god say so. Unless you can prove you are God since you are claiming that right on your say so.

Fascinating to see Boaz supporting Hilaly's logic and the wearing of the hijab. Fits right in with his assertions elsewhere about the innate sexual attractiveness of young girls. Clearly, under such a view men and women must be protected from the inflammation of their innate carnal lusts by the concealment of human bodies.

Fortunately, most of us have better control of ourselves than that unfortunate state of being, and can actually go out in public without fear of inadvertent arousal brought about by glimpses of naked human flesh.

More seriously, in my experience Western women dress at least as much for each other as they do to attract the gaze of men. Does this indicate a surreptitious hint of latent lesbianism?

Clearly, all women should wear the hijab. Men too, for that matter!