response to fleurette,

The thing you don't seem to accept is that the muslim extremists have repeatedly stated that their aim is to wipe out Israel. I can see no evidence that Israel seeks to wipe out the neighbouring arab states. All they want is to live in peace. Hamas and Hezbollah have been attacking civilians in Israel for years. Apart from civilians who have participated in terrorist attacks, I know of no arab civilians that Israel has attacked. Israel demolishes houses from which terrorist attacks have been launched. I consider that reasonable.

The main reason that this situation has lasted 58 years is that the surrounding arab states have never accepted the existence of Israel, and consider that a man who takes revenge after 60 years is acting in haste. They look to the fate of the Crusaders in the 13th century as an example to emulate. Unfortunately the Israelis have no desire to go into the sea, and I can only admire their determination.

If what Israel is doing is so wrong, what do you suggest they do to eliminate these indiscriminate attacks, and live peacefully. Throughout the last 58 years, since Israel was established by the UN, most of the wars have been started by the arabs.

This is of great relevance to us, as the problem of how we live with a third world sinking all the time into more chaos and despair, while watching on television the unattainable life in the West. (And while, thank heavens, we have increasing controls on illegal immigration from the third world). Remember that the end of the age of cheap oil means that living standards have to be reduced everywhere, particularly in the third world.

I do not personally believe that there is any peaceful solution, and that we are very close to nuclear war.

response to Carl and Daniel06,

It is not I who described the suicide bombers as vermin, it is the several Geneva Conventions. In the conventions actions are described, which exempt the participant from any protection, and suicide bombing is one of these. I suggest you read them. The laws of war have become established over the last 150 years. Poverty, desperation or any other reason are not acceptable reasons for violating them.

I can only add that anyone who equates a suicide bomber with a regular combatant who wears a regular military uniform is operating under a different morality that I am. Surely it is one of "the end justifies the means".

To those who seek peace

'The problem is the world sees whatever an Arab does is terrorism and whatever anyone else does is heroism'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006.

'The occupation of Palestine is the root cause of all the violence in the mid East'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006.

'In 1963 we had 28,000 Palestinian Christians living in Jeruslem, today there remain only 8,000. That reduction was not caused by Islamic terrorism, it has been caused by the occupation.'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006

'I am against all violence.'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006

Who is Riah Abu El-Assah? He's the Anglican Arch Bishop of Palestine. Yep he's an Arab, a Palestinian, a christian and a pacifist.

'People have ears but they do not listen'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006

Now watch the idiots prove him right.

plerdsus,

I think razing an entire country when two of your soldiers are captured is a good example of the end justifying the means. i suppose we're all just suppose to forget about the thousands of Palestanians kidnapped, oops, I mean, detained by the Israeli's.

I can't believe you have the audacity to mention the Geneva Convention. Suicide bombing must be the only tenant on the Geneva Convention Israel hasn't broken. The Geneva Convention was written expressly to prevent countries from operating as Israel now does. Unfortunately, the Geneva Convention can do nothing about an interest group that controls the US political process and hence it veto on the UN security council. Otherwise we would have peace and stability in the ME today.

It is interesting that some look at the best interests of Israel and the US, or the best interests of Islam and Palestine.

This is one question that we as Australians simply cannot answer. It is impossible for us to make an ethical direction in our opinion.

I think the point is to look back home in the interests of Australia. What are our interests? What are we doing in Iraq? Is this in Australia's best interest? If we make an anti Israel statement, we offend Israel, accused of being anti Semitic, and we end up having problems with the US. If we make anti Islamic statements, we lose exports to Iraq, Iran, and other crucial countries that earn billions for our farmers.

Why can't our Defence forces just defend Australia for once, rather than play international police, just to keep the US happy?

Why can't we keep our noses in our own business? Why make any statement at all?

For wisdom, ask the question: what would China say?

Answer: nothing. Just trade, stay silent, stay out of it and prosper.

Daniel06,

On one point I must sadly agree with you: that the Israeli lobby is indeed doing a poor and ineffective job.

Israel certainly deserves a better lobby and the current lobby deserves a whack on their bottom if there can still be people in this world and this forum who are so misinformed, believing such absolute blatant nonsense, Arab propaganda, as if:
* Israel wants to gain Lebanese territory
* Israel wants to kill Palestinians
* Israel wants to kill innocent civilians
* Israel bases its right to exist on religion
* Israel is interested in expanding its territory
* Israel is interested in stealing water from its neighbours
* Israel holds innocents as prisoners
* The occupation of Palestine is the root cause of all the violence in the mid East

In truth:

# Israel does not want any more land or water than what it had before 1967, when it was forced to take more territory to defend itself from 3 attacking armies and offered it back several times since in exchange for true peace.

# Israel does not want to kill anybody.

# The Arab prisoners held by Israel, are convicted murderers, attempted murderers or sentenced for causing grievous bodily harm to innocent civilans.

# The root cause of all violence in the mid-east is Islam and the fact that most Moslems do not accept the presence of others in their region and consider it Jihad to kill them (including Arabs who think differently).

# Israel's right to exist, within safe borders, has nothing to do with religious ideas. The Jewish people are a nation, the land of Israel is their land, and they have a right to live just like any other normal nation.

Israel is forced to kill, while Hezbullah does it for pleasure.
Sure, Israel killed more, because they fight better, care better about their citizens, know better how to protect them and not use them as human shields.

About that poor father you mentioned, whose son was kidnapped: wouldn't you in his place say just *anything* for a chance to save him?