According to James McConvill, "Israel is not vulnerable, precious or a decent democratic nation. As events over the last few days have shown, it is a unprincipled basket case that will kill, maim, whatever it takes, to protect its borders."

Is McConvill aware that the land area of Israel is a mere 20,770 square kilometres? That makes it approximately one-tenth the size of Victoria, the small Australian state that McConvill resides in. As a Sydney-resident it has always intrigued as to how VERY SMALL Victoria is - after all I can cross the state from Wodonga to Melbourne in just over three hours by car. I wonder how 'vulnerable' McConvill might feel if he lived in a nation that occupied just 10 per cent of his home state and was surrounded by a largely hostile Australian land mass, several countries of which had leaders who were sworn to its destruction?

Israel is not "precious" either ... Yes, McConvill would no doubt agree, in concert with the buffoons at the Green Left Weekly discussion board, that a nation with a Jewish majority is an outrage, whereas other states that call themselves Islamic are just fine and dandy.

And Israel is not a "decent democratic nation" ... Yes those damned Jews have got so much to learn from Iran, Libya, Saudi Arabia and the Sudan.

Just who is the "basket case", McConvill?

I think EnerGee just proved James point, well done.

This suggestion that Israel is excessively agressive is simply not true. If you look at the Egypt-Israel border, there has been peace for 20 years. Egypt does not permit terrorists to attack Israel, so there is peace.

As far as the moral position of Hezbollah and Israel is concerned, Hezbollah not only indiscriminately fires rockets targeted at the Israeli civilian population, but sends suicide bombers to kill Israeli civilians, whereas Israel only targets civilians in palestinian areas that have been involved in terrorist acts. Hezbollah, with the disregard for human life that seems to characterise the arabs, locates itself in civilian areas in Lebanon, so that Israel has difficulty attacking it without inflicting collateral civilian casualties.

The most important point, however, for Australians, is that Israel is fighting our enemies, who have already killed more than 150 Australians around the world. Remember the old adage:

The enemy of my enemy is my friend.

We have only seen the first act of the coming conflagration in the Middle East. The fuse is steadily burning on the issue of Iranian uranium enrichment, and we can expect dramatic action on that later this year. That's when petrol could go to $2 per litre.

Can anyone explain whether a multicutural country such as Lebanon is a dangerous menace to a unicultural country such as Israel.Are we at the "Cuito Cuanavale" moment similar to what apartheid South Africa faced in Angola in 1987 which resulted in the collapse of that state in short order in both South Africa and Namibia

James' article hits the nail squarely on the head. Israel is a spoilt brat of a nation coddled by an addle-headed US daddy for far too long. It's the bully on the ME bloc and has for decades now been routinely abusing its neighbours. The only thing that stands in the way of checking its sadism is the US, which has effectively become, through the agency of the Israel lobby, Israeli-occupied territory.

Plerdsus I hate to break it to you but Israel is the greatest aggressor there is.

You think there is peace wherever terrorism doesn’t prevail? What about in the occupied territories? Are you trying to tell me that the violence is caused by terrorism? Either ignorance really is bliss or you’ve been listening to too much propaganda. Or both.

Hezbollah is attacking civilians? And I suppose the 300 dead civilians in Lebanon just got in the way?

Did it ever occur to you that maybe suicide bombers are not fueled by religious hatred but rather by the unjust occupation that has reigned over the Palestinian people for almost 35 years now? (the longest standing occupation to date)

The first suicide bombers in Israel were not Arabs or Muslims. They were Japanese communists. Hear that? No religion! Hey…maybe it has something to do with that occupation I was talking about earlier. (Oh that!, you say)

“Hezbollah, with the disregard for human life that seems to characterise the arabs, locates itself in civilian areas…”

Not only is this statement incredibly racist but it’s simply untrue and extremely one sided (along with the rest of your post). Israel has difficulty attacking it? Oh my poor heart aches for Israel. I wish it were easier for Israel to bomb Lebanon back into the Stone Age the second time round!

What on earth do Australians have to do with Israel? Apart from the belligerent and extremely ostentatious support from the Australian government for Israel’s actions (be it entire massacres of villages or the usual routine wherever the abuse of human rights is concerned).

And finally, only someone so blinded by what’s really happening in the region could refer to and put the price of oil and Iran in the same sentence.

“On July 28, 1989, we kidnapped Sheikh Obeid, and on May 12, 1994, we kidnapped Mustafa Dirani, who had captured Ron Arad. Israel held these two people and another 20-odd Lebanese detainees without trial, as "negotiating chips." That which is permissible to us is, of course, forbidden to Hezbollah.” - Ze'ev Maoz

I was listening to the news on the radio the other day the story was something like "Israel successfully dismantled the operation of a Hezbollah controlled hospital..."

It took me a minute to translate this to "Israel just bombed a hospital" Then I have heard next to nothing about the alleged 20,000 non-Israelis who are being held in prisons in Israel, without charge or trial.

The ability of the media in portraying these events properly is questionable.

“As events over the last few days have shown, it (Israel) is a unprincipled basket case that will kill, maim, whatever it takes, to protect its borders”, says another Israel-hater who doesn’t seem to realise that killing and maiming are part and parcel of the conflict. It’s the nature of war, stupid.

Anyone would think that Israelis should sit back and continue to be threatened and attacked by any old Arab Islamist who wants to take a pop at them.

As for the Coalition of the Willing sitting back to ‘allow Israel (to) kill innocent civilians and destroy civilian infrastructure in Lebanon..’, what rubbish. Israel is now required to turn the other cheek after being attacked, it seems. So, more Lebanese civilians have been killed that Israeli civilians, and the terrorists have only ‘little’ rockets. Big deal! This is not a game where one side is handicapped to make it more interesting. Of course the stronger side is going to inflict more damage.

The instigators of the conflict should have thought more about the consequences before the started firing rockets into Israel.

The comments of Alan Dershowitz quoted by James McConvill are chilling and awful, but they are the truth and Israel has no choice but to bombard the terrorists who, in their usual cowardly manner expect, with good cause, the likes of McConvill and other anti-Israelites to criticise Israel from the safety of the West.

While, as the author claims, some may have ‘ been blinded by the bright light of adherents to Israel’ many, including the author, seem blinded to the fact that countries sworn to wipe it out surround Israel. Israel is constantly under threat from Islam and Arabs. Where does McConvill find ‘logic and compassion’ in that?

McConvill’s reference to a supposed ‘Israel lobby’ is another cheap tool used to drum up the idea of aggression and evil. Perhaps this ‘lobby’ is merely a group of people who want to see a democratic country survive amidst a sea of undemocratic, vicious and hate-filled Islamists

The quest for peace is bound to fail if we continue to believe that it can be achieved by force of arms. The Americans with their coalition partners are learning this lesson in Iraq with Iranians agents now having all but taken over the port of Basra and without a shot being fired.

Israelis should heed this. They are daily losing any semblence of security and instead only gaining the insecurity that is spawned by mistrust and fueled by escalating conflict and the arms race. Sure, Israel is vulnerable by its small size and geographic location, but while two men and a truck can continue to fire missiles at them they need to end the violence now.

Surrounded by hostile neighbours let us not forget she has previously fought strategic wars with the limited objective of gaining more and more real estate. Many of the disposessed continue to endure hopeless lives in refugee camps and detention centres.

It would be misleading to draw any comparison with a South Australia hypothetically surrounded by hostile tribes. Israel has the capacity to defend herself with Popeye Turbo missiles having a range of 1500 kilometres. They can be launched from her Dolphin class submarines, probably carry nuclear warheads and would be launched even if Israel, itself were to be totally destroyed. MAD indeed!

Tassiedevil

James McConvill is spot on for the most part, except in thinking of something called "the global community" (which "appeases" Israel etc.) Is anyone else sick to death of hearing mealy-mouthed references to the "global community" or "the international community" when this really means a couple of big-time arms merchants - USA and UK - and their cringing allies, like Australia, pursuing their own interests which tally nicely with Israeli military aggression.

As for "plerdus's" statement about the nice peace on the Egyptian border - the Mubarak regime in Egypt is sitting on an Islamic time bomb and the regime is entirely dependent for its shaky existence on billions of dollars of US aid - almost as much in US $$ as Israel gets every year, courtesy of the US taxpayer, money which then goes into buying US armaments and bunker-busting bombs etc. What a deadly carousel !

Boaz David

Defeat
Deport
Disperse
Absorb.

Hasn't worked in South Lebanon...again

I don't often agree with James but he is spot on this time.

Ridiculous article. If the USA were really backing Israel, they would be helping Israel to crush the Palestinians and hold onto the West Bank.

Instead, Bush is the first President ever to use the phrase 'Palestinian state'.

Just goes to show that a docorate in Law is no help whatsoever in working out what is actually going on in the world.

The Israel Lobby (which exists) has been less and less powerful since 9/11, as the USA realises that helping Israel crush the Palestinians is one of the things that _caused_ 9/11.

For an analysis on the current fighting based on trying to grasp some facts, instead of finding someone to blame, go to
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/disc/members/805094250462

David Jackmanson
http://www.letstakeover.blogspot.com

What is the pseudo-left?
http://www.lastsuperpower.net/disc/members/568578247191

Let's get a few facts straight here.

Energee

Israel isn't vulnerable. Why?
It has nuclear weapons.
It has the most modern, well equiped and supplied army in the region.
Most of it's citizens have trained for warfare.
It has US support.
It has peace treaties with well defined and fair borders with some of it's neighbours.

It's opponents have none of the above.

Plerdus

Egypt and Jordan have peace treaties with Israel. They weren't given away by Israel. The US demanded Israel acceed to Sadat's olive branch. They also forced Israel to return to it's pre '67 border with Egypt and to return those Jordanian territories not included in the original UN partition.

It was Hamas and a branch of The PLO, all organisations from the occupied Palestinian territories, who regularly sent suicide bombers...I'm not aware of any who claimed membership of Hezbollah or who were Lebanese.

You did make a most racist statement about Arab people.

Hezbollah is not part of al qaeda.

Sometimes the enemy is in ourselves. It's ok in my book to distance myself from friends who act unreasonably...and to tell them so in no uncertain terms. If they persist then it's ok to 'move on'.

Leigh Leigh Leigh.

Just don't get it do you?
Israel's leaders have made the same damming statements about the Palestinians.
Not all Israel's neighbours attack her. It's is only those whose territory has been invaded and is subject to illegal Israeli occupation.

Which side is handicapped? See above... Energee.

Democratic, fair and UN observed elections were recently held in Lebanon and the Occupied Palestinian Territories. Israel objected to the results of those fair and democratic elections and INVADED. One would have to conclude Israel doesn't want democratic neighbours.

Mad

Mad :-)

Kang

Figures please. I think while Egypt does receive US aid it is nowhere in the same league as Israel. Their aid resulted from the peaceful efforts of Sadat not from any militaristic intent.

Egypt's always suffered the existance of that bloody Brotherhood. All Egyptian leaders have suppressed it.

And yes Israel's existance is dependant on the US billions.

James must be commended for at least being forthright.

But some of his allegations are symptomatic of the problem - there is little point in highlighting the sins and excesses of Irael without lining them up against those of Hezbollah - when you do that it is plain to see neither side is worthy of support.

At that point ruminating over the past becomes meaningless as well.

Both sides stand condemned for disregarding the rule of law time and time again. But as well as condeming them for the obvious they should both be pressured into complying - Irael is not so pure as to claim immunity from economic sanctions - both sides should leant on until they come to an understanding - no matter how painful. if it means sanctions to Syria, Lebanon and Iran so be it.

They have had 60 years to sort this out.

No one nation has an intrinsic right to exist - Irael included. No more than any other at least.

History shows us borders are arbitrary to the point of being meaningless - unless they are respected under the rule of law.

Fleurette,

a few responses to your post:

1. Suicide bombers act outside the Genevea Convention, and all other protocols relating to warfare. They are considered vermin that can be shot down like dogs. There is no action that can justify them. The fact that the first suicide bombers in Israel were japanese in no way justifies them. I don't care where they come from.

2. The main cause, in my opinion, of the perpetual trouble in the middle east is the increase in population, which is the prime cause of most of the world's troubles.

3. What do you think Israel should do? Commit mass suicide? Organisations like Hezbollah would kill them all, given the chance, and we are supposed to applaud? Perhaps we should re-open Auchwitz to solve the Israeli problem.

4. You complain about 300 lebanese civilians killed during Israeli strikes. Do you believe they werer deliberately killed by Israel? Israel yesterday dropped leaflets in Sidon requesting the civilians to leave so they could attack Hezbollah. Is this deliberate murder? Of course the 9000 civilians killed in Israel over the last few years by suicide bombers doesn't matter.

5. You ask what Australia has to do with Israel? You may remember that in 2002, long before Iraq, many Australians were killed in Bali by muslim terrorists, the same ones that are attacking Israel, and the ostensible reason given was our involvement in East Timor. The real reason is hatred of western culture, as evidenced by the outrageous muslim response in a variety of countries to the Danish cartoons. The problem is that Islam is a failed culture, hopelessly unfitted to the modern world, stuck in the 7th century, and headed for catastrophe in a few years when their oil runs out

James's article is spot on.

What is missing, is the question; would the world support Israel if it were not for their money? The answer would be, No!

Look at China. Western nations condemned the abuse of human rights until they saw money to be made in China. Now, the world is silent on the abuse China commits...even banning protests against them when their officials visit.

Israel is a barbaric nation. These people see it fit to force non-Jews into harsh conditions. Look at how they treat their imported workers and arabs.

Israeli's are Barbarians.

I have to agree with you spider. They say they don't target civilians but today’s SMH reports that 56 of Israel's 89 deaths were combatants. That's about 63%. But then on the Lebanese side the Israeli's have killed 50 fighters out of at least 577 dead. That means less than 9% of Lebanese dead were combatants. How can this be anything but deliberately targeting civilians?

And why this barbarism? All for 'lebensraum' in the occupied territories. For their 'eternal and undivided capital Jerasulem'.

But with the absolute control of the Jewish lobby in the US how can fair minded people not despair? Perhaps this new new Jewish Reich will last a thousand years after all.

The ole boy John Hagee is the main supporter of Israel in the US and his aims are pretty terrifying as he has 50 million very rich supporters and the US government in thrall.

The aim is to drive all the Jews back to Israel, wait for the second coming and then the murders of 2 billion people.

All those who claim that arabs want to kill all the Jews today must live on another planet. In 6 years the good old west only managed to kill about 5 million, now there are 14.3 million.

Precisely how can any arab country do that when they have no standing armies, airforces or navies while the Israeli's do?

Don't you people, Leigh and others, understand the imbalance here?

Hezbollah is only about 600 trained fighters with 3,000 reserves, 12,000 cheap rockets and nothing else.

The IDF has now admitted that the video to 'prove" rockets were fired from Qana just before the massacre was 2 days old and also now try and claim that the Hezbollah were hiding behind civilians they didn't know were there.

The IDF had 150,000 trained soldiers and 500,000 reserves. Apaches, fighter jets, hundreds of tanks, laser guided weapons, phosphorous and so on.

The thing is that the Israeli's know when these little rockets are fired so why not blow them out of the sky?

Read the comments on Haa'retz from the nice Jewish racists you are supporting - they will curdle your blood.

Fantastic article James,

I applaud you for articulating very well that which is to any intelligent person glaringly obvious.

Israel will never have peace whilst they continue to terrorize, invade and murder their neighbors. This twisted politics of claiming any criticism is anti-Semitic is a blatant twisting of the truth. Hiding behind such a warped ideology is doomed to fail for the very simple fact that it is totally 100% wrong. I also find it a total insult to my and most people's intelligence that Israel, Bush, Blair, Johny & Co expect us to believe such a thinly veiled load of complete BS.

I am completely serious when I say that I am utterly dumbfounded that people actually believe the Israeli propaganda. It is so flawed and so baseless that I honestly can not see how any intelligent person can’t see straight through it.

If Israel is right and willful murder and oppression of your neighbors is the road to peace, as they would have us beleive, then how come all of the invading, murdering and bombing the hell out of their neighbours for the last 50+ years has done nothing but escalate the problem?

"plerdsus" - can’t you put forward an intelligent argument without getting personal? You lose all credibility when you make personal digs at people. If Israel is right and just in its actions you shouldn't need to revert to childish personal digs. But I guess the fact is Israel is anything but right or justified in its insane murderous invasion of Lebanon.

plerdsus

While defending the Jewish people and Israel you describe other people as vermin, this is painfully ignorant

I suggest you read a history book and learn about another man who used similar language to justify what he called an 'extermination'

"The instigators of the conflict should have thought more about the consequences before the(y) started firing rockets into Israel." Leigh.

Would someone please correct me if I have got this wrong? Didn't Hezbollah observe a 17 month cease-fire until recently? What ended the cease-fire and did the killing by Israelis of the Palestinian family having a party on the beach at Gaza have anything to do with it or was that a coincidence?

James: Began reading your lop-sided anti-Semitic diatribe but because of your absolute,total and complete bias was unable to read all of it.
So Israel kills and maims to protect its borders and in doing so also protects its citizens - how bloody awful? And who is Israel defending its borders against? oh its those nice, decent, usually hooded terrorists - again how bloody vile! Tell me james what would you expect our Government to do if a bunch of cowardly thugs sent demented suicide bombers amongst us. Or perhaps fired rockets across our borders, what would pathetic jamie want his Government to do?
Little jim, little jim {with apologies to the Goons}as I see it you are a slobbering, dribbling apologist for stinking,foul cowardly terrorists. Go back to your mosque mate.
Regards, numbat

The rant by McConvill is so biased that it hardly warrants a sensible logical reply,as obviously judging from this and previous articles,his whole naieve mindset is completely fixated on the biased,unrealistic,warm fuzzy ,goody,goody experience and incapable of being modified by reality or logic.

One point about the ridiculous assertion of an Israel lobby-if there is one,how come probably the strongest lobby of all-the lawyers has not smashed it.

Most lawyers seem to think along similar lines to our little dear and because a degree has elevated them from being paper shuffling,nobody clerks,their egos grow to insufferable proportions and suddenly they consider themselves to be VIP intellectuals,worthy of notice by one and all

Most laborours have more commmonsense than them-give me a break, please!!

Go back to pleading parking fine cases !

Stan1, you are mixing up two totally different wars:

The one and only common thing between those two wars is Israel: two different and distinct groups are trying for many decades to destroy Israel, Suni Hamas and Shiite Hezbullah. They have nothing to do with each other, and had Israel not been there, they would be fighting each other to the bitter end, as they do in Iraq.

Hezbullah planned their kidnapping attack in detail at least 5 months in advance - long before the flare-up in Gaza, and amassed 13,000 anti-civilian rockets for 6 years (not just 17 months) of "cease fire".

It is popular and convenient for Hezbullah to claim affiliation with Palestinians, but the true reason for them hating Israel so bitterly, is the directions from Iran who still seeks revenge on Israel because before the Islamic revolution, Israel used to be the Shah's best ally, and on top of it, now being a good ally of hated USA.

Hizbollox did not observe ANY ceasefire, ever. They have consistently attacked Israel, which withdrew unilaterally from their territory and from the Gaza strip. Now, thankfully, they have taken back most of Southern Lebanon, which thanks to Hizbollah/Lebanese Government's refusal to accept a ceasefire, they will keep. Hopefully they will allow the South Lebanon Army to control the empty villages, and that they will rearm the SLA.

However, if the SLA chooses to fire rockets into Lebanon, Israel is hardly to blame, are they? In fact, given that Hizbollah has suffered serious casualties (most of whom are numbered amongst the civilians), the SLA will finally outnumber them. I would not like to imagine the hijinks they will have in Lebanon if there perpetual enemy, Hizbullah/Amal is not around or incapable of stopping them. However, Israel will not have any right to disarm them, it will be a purely Lebanese problem, similar in fact to the current situation.

Of course, Hizbollah is strong enough, apparently, to force the Israeli army to leave, even when it doesn't wish to. So of course they will now go on the offensive, won't they? Of course the absence of innocent villagers may seriously affect their ability to do this effectively, but it shouldn't, they don't hide behind civilians, do they?

Check my blog for some pictures of Hizbollox fighter's firing rockets from civilian houses.

Hi James,

The real terrorists are those who support Murderers (like Hezbollah). Even though you are educated and doing journalism, you condone a terrorist and their murderous activities.

This speaks volumes of your mind. Check the facts before you write.

Who supplies the blockbuster bombs?,who supplies the jet fuel?who supplied arms to apartheid South Africa?take all this put it together,and it is simple,just who is behind all this,it happened in Angola?,it happened in the Belgian Congo,after the people fought for their freedom from the colinisation of the Congo,by Belgium?,who was behind,the invasion of Cuba?,who helped to keep Apartheid going?,who sabostaged,the elected governments,in South America?,is the answer blowing in the wind no,the culprit is not anyone but a Super Power,that wants the rest of the world,to conform with its quest for world domination

KAROOSON,

Who blows up in the name of allah? who slits the throats reading kuran? who throw bombs and hide behind civilians? who kills for a cartoon? who blows up planes, trains, buses, cars?

Who loves death for the sake of virgins?

It's the SUPER DEVIL..

numbat I'll give you a hint the Jews are not the only Semitic people in that area. In fact most of the Jews in Israel are not of Semitic back ground.
Us in the ME:- Iran you can't have nukes but don't complain about the nukes we gave Israel. that's fair, I do want either to have them.

So if you're lonely, you know i'm here waiting for you. I'm just a crosshair, I'm just a shot away from you. And if you leave here ...
You leave me broken shattered alive. I'm just a crosshair.

I say don't you know, you say you don't know. I say... take me out. If I move this could die, eyes move this can die. C'mon...take me out.

I'm just a shot .. then we can die.

Ooohahhhhh

I know I won't be leaving here with you ...

Iran seeking Uranium from Congo - timed release.

From Rupert Murdoch's Australian newspaper August 7, 2006 comes this well timed release of a story sourced to "Correspondents in London".
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20041081-601,00.html

"IRAN is seeking to import large consignments of uranium from the African mining area that produced the Hiroshima bomb, an investigation has revealed.

A UN report, dated July 18, [2006] said there was "no doubt" a huge shipment of smuggled uranium 238, uncovered by Tanzanian customs officials, was moved from the Lubumbashi mines in the Democratic Republic of Congo.

Tanzanian customs officials said it was destined for the Iranian port of Bandar Abbas, and was stopped on October 22 last year during a routine check.

The disclosure will heighten Western fears about Iran's presumed nuclear weapons program and the strategic implications of Iran's support for Hezbollah in Israel's assault on Lebanon

...The customs officer said: "The container was put in a secure part of the port and it was later taken away by the Americans, I think, or at least with their help. We have all been told not to talk to anyone about this"....".more

continued below

from above

Comment

Why the information (on events which occurred in October 2005..."We have all been told not to talk to anyone about this...") was kept secret, until now, from the international media, is a mystery.

Perhaps US intelligence saw operational reasons to keep the find secret.

Or perhaps the release was timed to maximize pressure on Iran. However the UN is not supposed to be into timed release of information.

Does anyone still doubt that US/Israel have a broad strategy ie.
- linking Iran's "aggression" in supplying rockets to Hezbollah last month with
- this month's ( Congo) news again highlighting Iran as an emerging nuclear rogue state?

Isreal's plan to bring in a UN force is also in train - for "peacekeeping" but really (I think) as a buffer force (at no cost to Israel) to secure Israeli gains . When this force fails to stop Hezbollah activities Bush can blame the "UN Europeans" for the whole Lebanon failure and justify tougher measures...bombing.

I may be sounding like a broken record, but its happening.

In domestic political terms one well timed scare after another keeps the public apprehensive and wins (midterm) elections for the party in power.

In realpolitik(al) terms Iran's nuclear weapons effort is cause for genuine international concern - naturally for Israel.

Pete
http://spyingbadthings.blogspot.com/

Indded that is an interesting occurence planetagent.

I can only take comfort in the fact that history will judge Rupert Murdoch and his oppurtunistic immoral lackeys and editors personally responsible for the deaths of thousands, if not millions (if this war escalates dramaticlly, which it may).

They are as equally culpable as Bush, Olmert and the rest.

The revolution will not be televised, nor will it be published in tabloid newspapers. But when it comes, Murdoch and co. will be held to account.

Darwin1:
Being an Australian Muslim, I have to refute your comments:

"Who blows up in the name of allah?"
Let me tell you that those that claim to blow up in the name of Allah are in fact committing criminal acts. There's a line in the Quran which states that if you kill one person it is as though you have killed the whole of humanity.

"who slits the throats reading kuran?"
Let me reiterate once again that those who claim they kill in the name of Islam are criminals who utilise and abuse the Quran to suit their own political agendas.

Those who proport to justify murder do not speak for Islam or Muslims, their actions are criminal, pure and simple.

The "SUPER DEVIL" you speak of is in fact : The Arab Other, a figure that has come to represent despotism, tyranny. It is " a figure of fear that is created in the national imagination".

Have a look at 'Bin Laden in the Suburbs', by Scott Poynting, Greg Noble, Paul Tabar and Jock Collins and you will understand what I mean.

I know it is terrible for those involved but what is worrying me is where this current ‘spat’ in the Middle East is leading us to. It is a ‘spat’ only relative to what appears to be ahead.
The fundamentalists on both sides need their heads knocked together by the moderates of this world and told to sort it out as besides being a grave danger to global peace, it is becoming a pain in the backside.
I see many people disinterested in politics, in what is happening in the world; probably because they see spin and propaganda for what it is.
I wonder if they ever think what their two year son, grandson, and a son yet to be conceived could be doing in twenty years time.
As this ‘spat’ widens, there is every chance he will be killing or getting killed on behalf of these bloody fundamentalists.

Surely it is time to marginalise those on both sides not prepared work out a solution by moderate people engaging politically.
In Australia, we need to tell both Howard and Beasley that we do not want our children fighting this war in twenty years time, that we expect they pay more than lip service to solving the problem, that we are fed up with spin and propaganda.

Dear Rayann,

"Let me tell you that those that claim to blow up in the name of Allah are in fact committing criminal acts. There's a line in the Quran which states that if you kill one person it is as though you have killed the whole of humanity. "

You say so but facts differ. I have been hearing those words "In Islam, we don't kill..etc"

Let me ask you, When Mohammed did that genocide of Jews in Saudi Arabia, I can say that He is a mass-murderer. What do you say?

As mohammed is muslim's role-model, the jihadists do the same murder in the name of islam. Figure it out.

Indeed those people are sadly Little - Devils (Read Salman Rushdie's Satanic Verses )...Satan's agents doing the commands of Satan's verses.

When the west committed the holocaust in whose name was it done?

There is a racist divorce from reality in the pro-Israel lobby that scarcely seems to bother with any truth, just repeats the same deranged Israeli mantra.

It was Israel who supplied the erroneous information about WMD in Iraq and look where we are all now. Tens of thousands of dead Iraqis.

They used a bogus video to justify a massacre. Fair dinkum I wish you would read some history.

Shepherd, the "West" did not commit the Holocaust, Nazi Germany did -our Enemy in the last war in case you didn't realise. Moreover, the demonic states in the Middle East are the Sharia states of Iran and Saudi Arabia. The mistreatment and abuse of women, minorities, non-Muslims and political dissenters are beneath contempt. These religious dictatorships must be forced to change, by any and every means at our disposal. The disproportionate focus on Israel is just a ruse to keep the attention away from these monstrous oil-rich entities.

Imagine if Mexico had a band of militia armed to the teeth funded and armed by say Italy/Vatican, ie. Swiss Guard who then kidnapped two Americans. And that militia, having placed themselves among civilian houses south of the border, fired rockets into San Diego after a long history of provocation and building up its armaments, the US retaliated killing some civilians. Where would your loyalties lie?

Would you tolerate a Hezbollah with their shadowy links to the Mullahs and money to buy hundreds of rockets to fire into civilian areas?

I really feel for the people of Lebanon. This is rotten. But what is the option, "appeasement in our time"? These latter day crusaders for the mullahs must be held back and the UN has done NOTHING (as usual).

As to the Israelis themselves, Nietzsche, the German philosopher summed it up succinctly....
"The whole problem of the Jews exists only in nation states, for here their energy and higher intelligence, their accumulated capital of spirit and will, gathered from generation though long schooling in suffering, much become so preponderant as to arouse mass envy and hatred. In all contemporary nations, therefore - in direct proportion to the degree to which they act up nationalistically - the literary obscenity is spreading of leading the Jews to slaughter of every conceivable public and internal misfortune

Yes, it is scary, Geoff, do we go after the ones doing the most killing, or the ones without weapons who wish they could.
Certainly the ones doing the most killing are the ones backed by the Americans as well as the American military. And the US pilots of course, who with no ground opposition dissimilar to WW2, the pilots with their guilt must find it hard to sleep at night. Same with the Israeli pilots as well as the Arab rocket men.

So you can see how difficult it is for Humanities Schools lecturers who are trained not to take sides, but to look at things ethically. It is why they need to spend much of their time in thinking and discussion and stay shy of fundamentalism.

Websters,

I say that you need to read the biography of Mohammed written by Karen Armstrong before you make any claims of 'genocide'.

Once again, let me clarify that the 'jihadists' who commit murder are criminals who debase proper Islamic teachings and principles.

Islam denounces and abhors the killing of innocent civilians; however whether those who claim to practise this faith adhere to this is another issue entirely. Just as in Judaism and Christianity, the killing of innocents is condemned. Yet there have still been crimes and atrocities committed in the names of all faiths, doctrines and ideologies.

Remember the Sabra and Shatila massacre and the Oklahoma city bombing?

Rayann

Fundamentalism, Bushbred?

Where do you see any fundamentalists on the Israeli side?
Israel is fighting for its home, struggling to survive. period. what's fundamentalist about it? yes, there are some lunatic Jewish fundamentalists in the West-Bank, but where are they in this war? while 1000's of Katyusha and other rockets fell on northern Israel, causing immense destruction, not a single rocket fell on their homes and many of them refuse to participate in the fighting in Lebanon because they despise the Israeli army which recently evacuated some of them from their illegal settlements. They are indeed a shame, but only a fringe that does not represent Israel in any way and does not take part in this war.

"the ones without weapons"?
so 13,000 rockets, including long-range, and top-of-the-line anti-tank missiles, artillery and much more, held by the Hezbullah are not weapons, just children's toys, right?

US pilots??
not a single one of them: all pilots are Israeli - and you know what, Israel would not allow an American to fly its war-planes and helicopters, because the Israeli pilots are the best in the world!
Those pilots sleep like babies at night (when not on duty), because those heroes know that they fought well and saved their country and the world from evil terrorists who try to kill every man, woman and child.

Yes, Israel does most killing - because they are better. You should not count casualties - but intentions:
How many people does Israel wish to kill? 0
How many people does Hezbullah wish to kill if they could? 6,000,000 Jews to begin with, followed by the rest of us "infidels" throughout the world, as well as even Moslems who are not strict enough or do not adhere to their particular sect.

I find James McConvill's opinion piece disappointing as it seems to be largely filled with emotional anti-semetic rhetoric rather than well considered argument.
I live in a Middle East country and am therefore all too aware of the dangers presented by organisations which sanctify death and only elevate the status of women as mothers of suicide matyrs or perpetuators of honour killings.
But actually, I am usually arguing against similar rhetoric used against muslims. Most muslims are not terrorists quite the contrary, and most do not support suicide killings or the hatred that is encouraged by these organisations. The outcry about the war has been far less here than in Western nations. Many Arabs have more to fear from Hezbollah, Al Qaeda or the Taliban than they do from Israel.
Peace agreements and withdrawals have been kept by Israel but Hezbollah's real agenda (and it is vocal about this along with Iran and Syria) is against the existence of Israel.
There have always been Jews in Israel and 20 per cent of the population is Arab. Palestinians both within Israel and on the West Bank and Gaza are entitled to a fair and equal life and this will include I hope, educational reforms for women with the aim of eliminating honour killings and other deaths in the name of Allah.

One other aspect: Israel's losses have been lower due to the national provision of bomb shelters for the population. Hezbollah should have had the same policy particularly as it has stored missiles and other armaments in civilian quarters and given the fact that in the last 20 years it has killed 800 people and might expect retaliation.

"I say that you need to read the biography of Mohammed written by Karen Armstrong before you make any claims of 'genocide'."

Please read Salman Rashdie's "Satanic Verses" i.e Koran verses and read the definiton of Genocide (Oxford Dictionary) so that you can understand what is a 'Genocide'.

Jihadists who murder are indeed following Koran/Satanic verses.. they simply follow the 'Mass-murderer', the Father of all Jihadists mohammed.

Oklohama? So, you got 1 christian killing in the name of Christianity? (Did he ever say that I am blowing up this for Christian God as dictated in the Christian Book??)

Find somthing else

Rayann, Karen Armstrong's biography of Muhammad is a fawning whitewash of Islam. Theory is nice, but let's look at how Islam is actually practised - now, who would like to live in Saudi Arabia or Iran as non-Muslims

Perhaps we Aussies should show some fortitude,develop our own nuclear weapons,and become independant from the US.We can have it all.We have 40% of the world's uranium huge coal and gas reserves with a small population to share it all.

Why involve ourselves with this Middle Eastern nonsense?We can become independant of Middle East Oil, the Jews and North America.I say stuff em,we don't need this religious hate and ignorance.Make money not war!

I agree with dinkum but I also think that the following statement by bushbred is most profound:-

"Yes, it is scary, Geoff, do we go after the ones doing the most killing, or the ones without weapons who wish they could."

He has been misunderstood. I don't think he really meant that US pilots were involved here.

There is a real conflict here and fundamentalists on both sides have nearly produced a disaster. I know an Israeli born woman who told me "on both sides there are people who don't want peace."

And anti Islamism is just as vile as anti semitism.

James McConvill contends that Israel is a "basket case". Having just watched this evening's "Four Corners" report ('Execution of a teenage girl' - the story of sixteen-year-old Atefah Sahaaleh who was hanged in a public square in the Iranian city of Neka, for "crimes against chastity"), I would really like McConvill to tell us how he views the wonderful Islamic Republic of Iran.

Or is the brutal, sadistic misogyny of the Iranian regime somehow to be excused on the basis of that regime feeling a little "vulnerable"?

Kvasir makes the point: "Who would like to live in Saudi Arabia or Iran as non-Muslims?" But the real question is, who would ever want to live in these vile basket-case countries as women?

Plerdsus

1. The media doesn’t report the daily atrocities committed by Israeli “Defence” Force soldiers because this doesn’t make headlines. We have become normalised to this violence. The other day when 4 UN representatives were killed in Lebanon there was a lot of coverage. In the same breath they then mentioned how 300 Palestinians had been killed. Death has become part and parcel of life. Please do not try and make out as if Suicide bombers are the problems of the world. The ethnicity of the first suicide bombers means that religion has nothing to do with it. It’s all political. As communists they opposed Israel’s dictatorship over the territories. I’m sure Palestinians have been inspired ever since.

2. Hezbollah is the only organisation which can claim that it’s acting out of defence. It was started as a resistance movement against Israel’s invasions. It’s the only army to ever defeat Israel. So paint it a terrorist organisation all you like but it’s no more affiliated with terrorism than Israel

3. Can a debate about Israel and Palestine not turn to the Holocaust for support? Unless you want to compare how Israel is carrying out genocide of its own. I can go with that one.

4. All of Israel’s actions in Lebanon have been calculated very accurately. They have been planning this attack for years now. They know exactly what they’re doing. Sending out pamphlets and then bombing the fleeing villagers does not count.

5. The ratio between Palestinian deaths and Israeli deaths is 7.7 -1.

6. You think the Muslim terrorists in Bali are somehow connected to those in Israel? Not only are the Muslims in Bali different to those in the Middle East (culturally as well as religiously) but it’s impossible to claim that all Muslims are the same and all their actions are well planned like they get together every week and decide how they can destroy the West!

7. What if they cut the US off from its oil? US = no oil, Israel = no funds – neither can continue its tyranny. Then who destroys itself?

Just re-reading McConvill's appalling article. After mentioning Dubya's "axis of evil", he goes on to state that: "But the real evil stems from within the territory of Israel ..."

I can only imagine that The Protocols of the (Learned) Elders of Zion was required reading in his tertiary education, for him to spout this inflammatory rubbish.

In response to fleurette. You state in Point 4 that:
All of Israel’s actions in Lebanon have been calculated very accurately. They have been planning this attack for years now. They know exactly what they’re doing. Sending out pamphlets and then bombing the fleeing villagers does not count.

Yet in an interview with The Sunday Times (July 29, 2006) the Hezbollah deputy, Sheikh Naim Qassem, admitted that Hezbollah had been planning for this current conflict for the past six years. It takes two to tango.

I would also like to know why all of those who disparage Israel are blind to the far greater tyrannies carried out by Arab and Islamic governments in the Middle East? Or don't the people of Darfur, of the Western Sahara, or the Kurds count?

I to wince at the killing of civilians in Lebanon and Palestine but we have to look at Israel's actions from their perspective.

Their civilians are being attacked and killed by two groups, Hezbollah and Hamas, that are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. These two groups are the puppets of Iran, and to a lesser extent, Syria. Both countries are dedicated to the destruction of Israel. Indeed the Iranian secular and political leadership have both publicly stated that Iran can accept extensive civilian casualties in a nuclear exchange with Israel if it leads to Israel ceasing to exist.
Understandably Israel's perception is that it is fighting for its very existence.

Think further about previous ceasefires and UN resolutions in that none so far have secured peace for Israel. Is it any wonder that they feel that they have to go it alone?

Think back to 1967 and 1973. Did Israel attack Lebanon then? No, there was no need, there was peace on that border. Only after Lebanon fell into chaos with the PLO first, then the militias and now Hezbollah has Israel had to act on that border.

Hezbollah is fighting a proxy war for Iran and Syria. Any protestations that it it defending the people of Lebanon are falsehoods. Hezbollah is cynically using those people to further the aims of Iran and Syria. Israel is between a rock and a hard place and regardless of whatever actions both sides take ultimately there will be no winners.

I support Israel's right to exist in peace just like I support the same goal for the Palestinian and Lebanese peoples but I don't support the existence of Hezbollah or Hamas who are simply proxies for third parties.

Unfortunately, I see no resolution to this situation and predict a nuclear exchange between Israel and Iran in 3-5 years if the current Iranian leadership does not change its views.

"Yuyutsu" you said the following:

"Those pilots sleep like babies at night (when not on duty), because those heroes know that they fought well and saved their country and the world from evil terrorists who try to kill every man, woman and child." - Firstly, I recently saw an interview of the father of one of the captured Israeli soldiers who felt that the continued killing of the Palestinians was the cause of the problem. Secondly, I don't think that Hezbollah is posing a threat to the "world" so please spare me that Israel is protecting me. And finally you judge these supposed 'evil terrorists' on the basis of how many people they kill when clearly Israel are killing a hell of a lot more people.

You then go on to say:

"Yes, Israel does most killing - because they are better" (just a little contradictory don't you think?)

And finally you say: "You should not count casualties - but intentions: How many people does Israel wish to kill? 0" - I am no military expert Yuyutsu but I would have thought bombing hospitals and residential homes has a pretty narrow range of outcomes mate the primary one being that of killing people as proved by the fact that Israel continues to.... you got it kill loads of inocent people.

Yuyutsu, if even a remotely plausable arguement was put forward by Israel I would be more than happy to listen to it. If there was even a shred of truth in their (and your) twisted arguement I would happily consider it, however saddy both you and the Israel lobby just don't seem to be able to do it.

"As events over the last few days have shown, it is a unprincipled basket case that will kill, maim, whatever it takes, to protect its borders."

How dare Israel want to protect its own borders! The nerve of those Jews! They should just roll over and let surrounding nations harbor terrorists who lob rockets into their country like any decent nation would!

EnerGee,
It’s not a matter of who has been planning it the longest. It’s a question of their aims in this conflict. So far we have 35 Israeli civilians killed (six of them Israeli Arabs) and 69 Israeli soldiers. As opposed to the Lebanese casualties – 900 Lebanese civilians and 100 Hezbollah soldiers. And all in the space of a few weeks. To me this screams a greater agenda than just to eliminate Hezbollah. Israel wants land in the South of Lebanon and it won’t be able to acquire it with Hezbollah causing trouble.

Hezbollah is an army of 3000 men. Hardly a formidable force yet just like the Viet Cong they use effective guerilla tactics. Funny that a lot of people are comparing this conflict to Vietnam with many Israel soldiers not wanting to fight in a place where they have already suffered defeat.

The Americans also claimed back then that the Viet Cong hid in civilian areas and in villages so they could use the high civilian casualties to recruit more Viet Cong members. It was propaganda back then and it still is propaganda. I find it hilarious that Israel thinks it can use this excuse again without anyone noticing.

I don’t see the Arab governments as posing more of a threat or a tyranny than Israel and I think anyone who claims this is just trying to divert attention away from Israel’s own atrocities.
Tezkidd – the only thing Israeli citizens should fear is their own government for putting them in such peril and danger. Now that Israel has attacked Downtown Beirut they are planning to attack Tel Aviv. So much for invading Lebanon in the name of defence! They have exacerbated the situation.

Hezbollah was trained by Iran to help counteract the first Israeli attack. Hezbollah was born out of Israel’s own actions. Just like Saddam is in place because of the US. UN resolutions calling for peace never work because they get vetoed by the US.

Since when is it illegitimate to seek to influence legislators in a democracy? Since when is it illegitimate to be successful in seeking to influence legislators? It is what workers do through the unions; it is what lawyers do through their associations; it is what ethnic and cultural minorities do when they want something from government; it is what bike riders do when they want more bicycle paths.

Whether rightly or wrongly, many Jews believe they are involved in an existential struggle and they therefore seek to influence those governments that are susceptible to influence i.e. the democracies. Hence the "Jewish lobby". When is a lobby illegitimate in a democracy? When it is Jewish!

If the Jewish lobby is illegitimate, then so are the trade unions, the bicycle associations, most NGOs, the Law Society and any other organisation that goes to Washington and Canberra etc... That is fascism.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/story/0,,1839280,00.html

San Francisco chronicle blows the whistle on war planning in the US last year and the crimes commited by both side over 6 years with Israel being the greatest offenders by far.

It is a crime against humanity to bomb civilian areas at any time and in any place and it is a further war crime for the Bush, Blair and Israeli cowards to pretend it was in response to a skirmish on the border.

What of earth will Israel ever achieve by continually doing this to her neighbours? Some of the people on this forum need to have a firmer grasp on reality.

Israel is a rogue state being egged on by the US and UK who then pretend to be "brokering peace", just like they did when they illegally bombed Iraq using phoney Israeli "intelligence" about WMD that didnt' exist.

WE are all war criminals for condoning this filth. Israel should just p..s off back to their own borders and stop stealing the land and water of their neighbours.

As for the Iranian girl - in Australia she would have been locked in Woomera for years, called a liar and fraud and queue jumper, denied protection and send back to her death with $2,000 so stop whining like snivelling hypocrites.

Jackazoid,

No reasonable person has a problem with lobbying per se, but if, as is the case in the US, the Israel lobby has such a powerful hold on Congress that politicians fear for their political survival if they question Israeli behaviour, there's clearly something wrong.

"Whether rightly or wrongly, many Jews believe they are involved in an existential struggle..." A few comments: Zionists need to whip up paranoia and invent existential threats to keep their ideology of ethnic exclusivism and superiority alive. To the degree that "many Jews" (how many - who knows?) have been conned by Zionist propaganda into believing in an unbroken line of Hitlers (Nasser-Saddam-Arafat-Ahmedinijad- Nasrallah), they are, unfortunately, deluded, and it is unfortunate indeed that their collective delusion has such an influence on America's (and Australia's) foreign policy vis a vis the Middle East. For example, I personally believe that I am the reincarnation of the late King Zog of Albania, but would fall off my perch if the government were to base its relations with Albania on my belief.

"Jewish lobby"? You mean the Zionist or Israel lobby. It's to be hoped that most of us now can see through Zionism's attempt to equate itself with Judaism. Moreover, the Zionist lobby includes both Jews and non-Jews, neither group having a monopoly on delusion.

Strewth

Delusional?

Mate take a look at the IDF. It reported it had captured and pacified Bint Jubayl a week or so ago.

Mate today Israeli soldiers were killed in clashes with Hezbollah fighters in ... guess where? Yep Bint Jubayl.

If it weren't so serious it'd be funny.

Are the IDF propagandists emulating Basil Fawlty from Fawlty Towers?

So much for the effective Israeli occupation of Southern Lebonan. No bloody wonder they want the UN to outlaw Hezbollah and Lebanon resisting their illegal occupation.

Had an even bigger sneer at the Israeli ambassador to the US when interviewed by Neil Cavuto on Fox News. He criticised the killing of 15 Israeli's yesterday and glossed over the fact 12 of them were in THe bloody IDF. He tried equating that with the deaths of 56 Lebanese civilians.

Mate on and on the delusional propaganda goes...

It's about time the Israeli's faced the fact we don't believe their propaganda anymore.

Oh and Inshallah 2bob. The UN found the Israeli's deliberately targeted that building in Qana knowing there were no Hezbollah present. They also indicated the IDF were complicit in attempts to cover up their atrocity.

No bloody wonder you've shut up after all the claptrap you spouted about who was to blame for that atrocity.

All I see here is blogs accusing one side or the other of being the bad guys. After 60 years there is so much innocent blood on the hands of both sides, identifying the bad guys is a nonsense.

If you lot really 'cared' about the innocents being killed in the ME right now, rather than simply using them as 'ammo' for your debates, you'd let go of your rage and hatred and start trying to find practical solutions to achieve a real peace.

Peace can't be achieved by identifying the guilty, but only by negotiating a mutually acceptable compromise. Have none of you any thoughts what that might be? If none of you can even begin to contemplate a solution, what's the point of complaining about the killing when by your own silence you concede they have little alternative.

response to fleurette,

The thing you don't seem to accept is that the muslim extremists have repeatedly stated that their aim is to wipe out Israel. I can see no evidence that Israel seeks to wipe out the neighbouring arab states. All they want is to live in peace. Hamas and Hezbollah have been attacking civilians in Israel for years. Apart from civilians who have participated in terrorist attacks, I know of no arab civilians that Israel has attacked. Israel demolishes houses from which terrorist attacks have been launched. I consider that reasonable.

The main reason that this situation has lasted 58 years is that the surrounding arab states have never accepted the existence of Israel, and consider that a man who takes revenge after 60 years is acting in haste. They look to the fate of the Crusaders in the 13th century as an example to emulate. Unfortunately the Israelis have no desire to go into the sea, and I can only admire their determination.

If what Israel is doing is so wrong, what do you suggest they do to eliminate these indiscriminate attacks, and live peacefully. Throughout the last 58 years, since Israel was established by the UN, most of the wars have been started by the arabs.

This is of great relevance to us, as the problem of how we live with a third world sinking all the time into more chaos and despair, while watching on television the unattainable life in the West. (And while, thank heavens, we have increasing controls on illegal immigration from the third world). Remember that the end of the age of cheap oil means that living standards have to be reduced everywhere, particularly in the third world.

I do not personally believe that there is any peaceful solution, and that we are very close to nuclear war.

response to Carl and Daniel06,

It is not I who described the suicide bombers as vermin, it is the several Geneva Conventions. In the conventions actions are described, which exempt the participant from any protection, and suicide bombing is one of these. I suggest you read them. The laws of war have become established over the last 150 years. Poverty, desperation or any other reason are not acceptable reasons for violating them.

I can only add that anyone who equates a suicide bomber with a regular combatant who wears a regular military uniform is operating under a different morality that I am. Surely it is one of "the end justifies the means".

To those who seek peace

'The problem is the world sees whatever an Arab does is terrorism and whatever anyone else does is heroism'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006.

'The occupation of Palestine is the root cause of all the violence in the mid East'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006.

'In 1963 we had 28,000 Palestinian Christians living in Jeruslem, today there remain only 8,000. That reduction was not caused by Islamic terrorism, it has been caused by the occupation.'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006

'I am against all violence.'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006

Who is Riah Abu El-Assah? He's the Anglican Arch Bishop of Palestine. Yep he's an Arab, a Palestinian, a christian and a pacifist.

'People have ears but they do not listen'
Riah Abu El-Assah, BBC World News Tues 8 August 2006

Now watch the idiots prove him right.

plerdsus,

I think razing an entire country when two of your soldiers are captured is a good example of the end justifying the means. i suppose we're all just suppose to forget about the thousands of Palestanians kidnapped, oops, I mean, detained by the Israeli's.

I can't believe you have the audacity to mention the Geneva Convention. Suicide bombing must be the only tenant on the Geneva Convention Israel hasn't broken. The Geneva Convention was written expressly to prevent countries from operating as Israel now does. Unfortunately, the Geneva Convention can do nothing about an interest group that controls the US political process and hence it veto on the UN security council. Otherwise we would have peace and stability in the ME today.

It is interesting that some look at the best interests of Israel and the US, or the best interests of Islam and Palestine.

This is one question that we as Australians simply cannot answer. It is impossible for us to make an ethical direction in our opinion.

I think the point is to look back home in the interests of Australia. What are our interests? What are we doing in Iraq? Is this in Australia's best interest? If we make an anti Israel statement, we offend Israel, accused of being anti Semitic, and we end up having problems with the US. If we make anti Islamic statements, we lose exports to Iraq, Iran, and other crucial countries that earn billions for our farmers.

Why can't our Defence forces just defend Australia for once, rather than play international police, just to keep the US happy?

Why can't we keep our noses in our own business? Why make any statement at all?

For wisdom, ask the question: what would China say?

Answer: nothing. Just trade, stay silent, stay out of it and prosper.

Daniel06,

On one point I must sadly agree with you: that the Israeli lobby is indeed doing a poor and ineffective job.

Israel certainly deserves a better lobby and the current lobby deserves a whack on their bottom if there can still be people in this world and this forum who are so misinformed, believing such absolute blatant nonsense, Arab propaganda, as if:
* Israel wants to gain Lebanese territory
* Israel wants to kill Palestinians
* Israel wants to kill innocent civilians
* Israel bases its right to exist on religion
* Israel is interested in expanding its territory
* Israel is interested in stealing water from its neighbours
* Israel holds innocents as prisoners
* The occupation of Palestine is the root cause of all the violence in the mid East

In truth:

# Israel does not want any more land or water than what it had before 1967, when it was forced to take more territory to defend itself from 3 attacking armies and offered it back several times since in exchange for true peace.

# Israel does not want to kill anybody.

# The Arab prisoners held by Israel, are convicted murderers, attempted murderers or sentenced for causing grievous bodily harm to innocent civilans.

# The root cause of all violence in the mid-east is Islam and the fact that most Moslems do not accept the presence of others in their region and consider it Jihad to kill them (including Arabs who think differently).

# Israel's right to exist, within safe borders, has nothing to do with religious ideas. The Jewish people are a nation, the land of Israel is their land, and they have a right to live just like any other normal nation.

Israel is forced to kill, while Hezbullah does it for pleasure.
Sure, Israel killed more, because they fight better, care better about their citizens, know better how to protect them and not use them as human shields.

About that poor father you mentioned, whose son was kidnapped: wouldn't you in his place say just *anything* for a chance to save him?

plersuds, you have a very peculiar sense of morality

are you trying to say that just because someone wears a regular military uniform that they are immediatley more moral than suicide bombers? does this apply to the russian uniformed soldiers that raped woman and killed children in berlin? the uniformed guards at Auschwitz? the uniformed Japanese soldiers at Nanking? the uniformed soldiers at My Lai?

get with it mate, we are ALL capable of extreme evil and we are ALL capable of extreme good, black, white, christian, jew, muslim, uniformed or not, whatever. It might sound like a cliche but it is true.

There is an axis of evil but in my humble opinion it directly connects James McConvill, Marilyn Shepherd and Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad.

Shepherd's comments about the "Iranian girl" - by the way she had a name Shepherd and it was Atefah Sahaaleh - are absolutely absurd. No girl in Australia would ever face a court for her so-called crimes, let alone be sent to the gallows. I detest the death penalty everywhere - in the United States, in Singapore and in China - but in the case of Iran its application is particularly venal. And monstrously medieval.

And it is from the medieval cesspit that the Iranian mullahs represent, that Hezbollah - the party of a totally non-existent god - draw their inspiration.

McConvill, who has argued in favor of scrapping the UN and disposing of international law, and who seems to have “conflicted” views (at best) about racial equality in Australia, has nothing to teach Israel about humanitarian principles. True to form, he here presents a wildly one-sided case (for example, only bothering to mention civilian deaths and destruction on the side of the aggressor, while ignoring Israel’s losses), and uses these to throw around a lot of unclear accusations, couched in meaningless words meant to sound vaguely nefarious (for example, that the “Israel Lobby” is “ubiquitous”!). McConvill provides almost no specific complaints or suggestions, let alone hard facts. What is the “real evil” that he thinks is coming from Israel and the so-called “Israel Lobby”? He doesn’t tell us.

The fact is that many Americans (and many Australians, as well) simply disagree with McConvill about who their allies should be, who is a “decent democratic nation” and who an “unprincipled basket case”, which side has chosen a strategy of routinely and purposely targeting civilians, and what policies best promote “justice, humanity and peace”.

Americans who wish to promote and maintain a strong US-Israel relationship play by the same rules as those who promote close ties to Australia, Arab dictatorships, Canada, Europe; the interests of oil companies, the medical industry, teachers, and farmers; greater protection or exploitation of wildlife; organized labour; immigrant groups; the gay and lesbian community, etc. This is a big part of how politics works in a complex, open, liberal democratic society. All organized political groups have their successes and their failures, and there is nothing nefarious about it. And it is no wonder that a group that promotes a strong, close relationship between the United States and the only democracy and reliable friend in the Middle East is more successful than competing groups that work, in the name of money and oil, to prop up and arm some of the world's most corrupt, aggressive, regressive, terrorist-supporting, human-rights violating, heinous absolute monarchies, autocracies, and dictatorships.

Continued...

continued from above...

As for Mearsheimer and Walt’s paper, let’s see… former Ku Klux Klan leader David Duke endorsed it. So did the widely and deservedly discredited CIA analyst Michael Scheuer, and Tony Judt, who is on record as supporting the dismantling of Israel, which he considers to be an “anachronism”.

Meanwhile, the paper has earned blistering criticism for being full of errors, dishonest, slanderous, unscholarly, grossly overstated, disturbingly similar to classical anti-Semitic conspiracy theories, etc. This has come from a wide variety of commentators – not only traditional supporters of Israel, such as Alan Dershowitz, but also from harsh critics of Israel, such as Noam Chomsky, As`ad AbuKhalil, Stephen Zunes, and Ned Walker.

As Christopher Hitchens has commented on the paper, “what is original is not true and what is true is not original”, and its main thesis is “partly misleading and partly creepy”.

Saintfletcher,

let me tell you a secret: I also hate America and I also would like to see Australia independent.

My reasons for hating the USA may perhaps differ from yours - they are snubs thinking the whole world belongs to them, they pollute the world and its culture, promoting junk food, violent TV, and GM crops.

But I realize one thing: we cannot survive without them.
The idea of Australians being able to defend our continent on our own is hilarious, but with such long borders and relatively such small population, we must save it for dream-time and realize that we have no choice but continue paying our tribute to the emperor of our time, so that neighbouring nations know that if they attack us, big-brother is going to make them regret it.

If given a choice whether to live under American (cultural and/or physical) occupation, or under Islamic occupation, I regrettably choose the first.

This is no longer a nice game - WWIII has started, it is just hard to recognize because it is so different than the first two, and Europe is already on the verge of falling prey to Islam. Unlike in Israel or Somalia, Islam does not need to use artillery there - its weapons are the womb and exploiting the weaknesses of fair democracy. Europeans are desperate, many already flee Holland and Belgium and French thinkers also admit that the days of France as a free western-civilized country are numbered. It is quite reasonable that within 20-30 years, even the pope will flee and establish the Vatican in South America.

Australia is no exception. Islamic organizations have already declared Northern Australia to be part of a future Islamic state that includes most of South-East Asia. Even if you do not live in Northern Australia, is anyone so naive to believe that they will voluntarily stop their Jihad there?

Perhaps after the war, if we are still alive, we will strive for independence, but meanwhile we simply do not have too many options in choosing our allies.

It seems to me that this hostility is a nicely engineered self perpetuating mutual destruction that can both continue and escalate indefinitly.
These poor people from both sides are just the lemmings that happened to be closest to the cliff.
Perhaps when the world population gets down to a permanently sustainable level, lemmings won't need to leap anymore.
All the factors involved from energy criticality thru religious intolerance to politics are only multiple facits of a greater survival of the fittest challenge that all species face.
A long term view of human survival would seem to suggest that leaving the protagonists to battle it out will achieve much the same result as intervention, ie the elimination of surplus humans.
Party now while you still can and watch the events unfold.

I believe a poster way up there said something silly, to paraphrase him/her.

The Unite States does not back Israel? Really? I'd like to know then why the U.S.A. gives Israel about 2 billion dollars a year in aid? I mean given Israel is not even close to being a third world country?

Of course there is always 2 sides to every story. I also read when I googled forums about this subject in the tag line some one mentioning that international law was being broken by Lebanon for not implementing Res. 1559! I don't per se take sides here, but we should at least keep it fair.

As said, there are two sides to every story. I've bolded a couple that stood out to me.

http://www.politicallysound.com/Israel.html

Like I said, there is always two sides to every story and or conflict. As Buffalo Springfield wrote in his famous song "What It's Worth" "Nobody is right, when everyone is wrong"

Peace - Stephanie.

P.S. Just for the record, I am neither Jewish or an Arab. Just someone from Canada interested in the subject.

Savage Pencil, do you bother to read anything at all? Where did I say that the any girl in Australia would be put to death?

If she came to Australia and claimed to be a refugee from persecution or death our government would claim that it didn't happen and lock her up. They would claim that the Iranian government would never turn a blind eye to rape, they would claim that the government would protect her.

Then they would force her to go to the Federal court, they would say she was a liar if she missed out the smallest detail of the abuse through fear and they would deny her refugee status.

Then they would give her the choice of staying in detention for years or $2,000 to go back, where we know she would be killed.

I know this for certain because they even did this to a 9 year old Iranian child who had been raped by the janitor of her school, her father was incarcerated and when they got here she hung herself in detention.

She stayed locked up for 2 years, still traumatised and with DIMA and Ruddock still claiming she was not a refugee. Do not talk to me about the savagery of the Iranian regime until you face the brutality of ours.

This little girl was 9 years old.

I am rapidly becoming dissillusioned at the new lows to which the anti-Israel lobby will stoop. Now it turns out that more photographs have been faked (I couldn't be asked, Hajj is the photographers name, he was with Reuters), while the UN secretary general bleats about Israeli war crimes, while failing to make any mention of the cause of the Israeli response.

Face it, I know many here wish that Israel would be found guilty of war crimes, but it aint gonna happen. For a start, and as black kofi is aware, there is a right under International law for the accused to be presumed to be innocent unless and until their guilt is proven.

Next, the irrelevancy of UN observer's being unable to locate any weapons in the immediate vicinity is complete. It is not for Israel (or the individual accused') to prove that the area targeted contained Hizbollox and/or weapons, it is for the UN to prove not only the absence thereof, but also that the accused was aware of that absence.

Contrary to what is apparently thought by some here, Israeli's have no desire (at least the ones I know) to kill/maim civilians, they just wish to stop the terrorists firing rockets at their freinds/families. However, Hizbollox will escape prosecution for firing rockets, intentionally, at civilians, simply by virtue of the fact that it is too hard to prosecute them, or they have fled to Iran.

Please let the guilty be punished.

Inshallah

2bob

“Apart from civilians who have participated in terrorist attacks, I know of no arab civilians that Israel has attacked. Israel demolishes houses from which terrorist attacks have been launched. I consider that reasonable.”

You don’t know of any Arab civilians that Israel has attacked? And if I had evidence of the contrary would you suddenly know? Or does it have to be filtered through the US media first? Israel demolishes any houses situated on land it wants. They use excuses like the owners don’t have permits (which are impossible for the Palestinians to obtain). The sad part is this property has been in their family for generations. Not to mention that Israel is on THEIR land ILLEGALLY. It is an ILLEGAL occupation and they have no right to take anyone’s home. There are hundreds of thousands of Palestinians who are displaced because of this ridiculous attempt by Israel to gain more land.

Israel doesn’t have to fight with arms for its existence. Iran will never pull the trigger with the Arab population in the occupied territories. But if the Arabs are fed up with persecution and decide to leave in a mass exodus out of Israel then Israel would be susceptible to Iran’s wrath.

So I stand by my original solution –the Israelis should change their entire policy. They should treat the Palestinians with dignity and respect, give them equal rights, withdraw from the territories and learn to work together. If Israel did all of that and Iran still wanted to wipe it off the map then I’d support Israel all the way. But I’m convinced that won’t happen because if Israel was presented with such an ultimatum (wise up or the Palestinians leave) then they’d do nothing leaving their country vulnerable to an attack.
In fact I’m sure they want to be attacked in such a way if only to garner more sympathy than ever before. That’s how Israel and the Zionists work – by playing the victim.

Yuyutsu, you summed it up pretty well in the first para ;)

Just tell it like it is.

http://news.sky.com/skynews/video/videoplayer/0,,31200-galloway_060806,00.html

I keep hearing Israel saying that they are fighting for their nation.

What utter crock!

Nobody is invading their borders. No masses of infantry is marching into Israel, there are no arial bombings of Israel, there is no Navy firing sea to land missiles.

A couple of people were kidnapped which is responded to with mass murder.

Hey, if somebody tries to rape on of my daughters, I will the Israeli arguement to kill every person living in the same neighbourhood as the attacker because I'm protecting my family.

Spider,

Maybe not everyone in the surrounding neighbourhood, but perhaps everyone in the surrounding neighbourhood who cheered whilst your daughter was raped!?!

What do you think Israel should have done instead?

Don't forget this was a second kidnapping in a short period. If your daughter was raped a second time would that get you sufficiently riled to be a little irrational?

sganot

Another smokescreen of Zionist propaganda designed to cover Israel's bloody tracks in Gaza and Lebanon:

On "disposing of international law" and "humanitarian principles": No country since 1945 has displayed more contempt for both than the United States of Israel.

On the "real evil" from Israel: The never-ending torment and abuse of the Palestinian people, the past and present suffering of the Lebanese people, the future suffering of..?

And its lobby: "What the region needs now, according to [former Prez Carter's National Security Adviser] Zbigniew Brzezinski, is an American leader brave enough to say: 'Either I make policy on the Middle East or AIPAC makes policy on the ME.' " (Ari Berman, AIPAC's Hold, The Nation, 29/7/06)

On "many Australians": A March poll showed 24% support for Israel, 23% for Palestine, 33% neither and 20% not sure. The Australian government's blind support for the US of Israel does not have a popular mandate. And boy would I love to see such a poll now.

On "routinely and purposely targeting civilians": Israel, over and over.

On all your blather about "absolute monarchies, autocracies and dictatorships": Just the usual Zionist finger pointing.

On Dershowitz: Who claims the Geneva Conventions are outdated, that torture should be reintroduced and that extra-judicial killings should be legit. Sort of undercuts your opening paragraph somewhat.

Yuyutsu,

Your rantings about the righteousness of Israels murder of inocent civilians, Islamic world domination theory and people (including the Pope) fleeing Europe in fear of the evil Moslems are really rather insane.

I lived in London for over 5 years until fairly recently and my partner and her family are all continental European. I can assure you there is absolutely no fear of France, Italy or any other European country becoming Islamic states.

Let me take a wild guess Yuyutsu you are a big believer in the following:

The tooth fairy? Alien abductions? Unicorns?

Please answer this Yuyutsu: How is saying that Moslems are taking over Europe and the world any less racist than people saying the Jews control the world?

When I hear people ranting like you, I realise why Israel will never ever have peace until attitudes as racist as those you hold are changed. No amount of evidence, no amount of innocent lives lost, no amount of logic will sway such deep seeded racism and ignorance. The fact is Yuyutsu for some crazy reason your views are supported by the US and so the proof (or failure as I see it) of your arguement will be their for all to see - lets just see how successful Israel's latest expedition is. I guarantee you 5-10 years down the track if they keep up the current attitude things will be even worse.

You will see that I am right.

Fleurette's last post sounds like he/she wouldn't say no to a "final solution" of the Jewish problem being delivered by the medieval mullahs of Tehran. But to trust the benevolence of a regime that hangs 16 year-old girls for "crimes against chastity", is an indication of grand stupidity.

• James McConvill ..."Israel is not vulnerable, precious or a decent democratic nation. As events over the last few days have shown, it is an unprincipled basket case that will kill, maim, whatever it takes, to protect its hegemony"... Now surely-to-most of the moral-people, it would appear anomalous, that the Zionist-clique which forever-invokes the horrors of its spun holocaust-tragedy, should-have collaborated-actively with the vicious-Nazi-enemy, ever-faced by Jews. Yet authentic-history reveals-however, not-merely the common-interests, but a much-deeper ideological-affinity. Rooted in the extreme Zion-Nazi racism, which they actually shared. In spite-of-the-fact that Nazi-bigots rejected Zionists as not-of-Germanic-blut.

So for all their grandiose intellectual pretensions, their völkisch Zionism was seemingly an-imitation of Nazi nationalist-ideology. Or wasn't it actually vice versa? As-a-real objective of the Zionism has never-been-merely to-colonise Palestine as-a-goal in the classical-colonial style-of-imperialist (19th & 20th) centuries, when an-objective of European colonialism in Africa and Asia was essentially-to-exploit the indigenous people as-a-cheap-labor, while extracting-natural-resources for the exorbitant-profit. Whereas what distinguishes lastly evolved Zionist zealots from its earlier elders-of-zion imperialist-ventures, was the relationship between the born-to-rule settlers, and the people to-be conquered.

As the avowed-purpose of the Zionist venture (not-unlike in America), was not-merely to-exploit Palestinian people, but-to-disperse and dispossess them. To eradicate farmers, artisans and town-dwellers of Palestine, and substitute them with an-entirely Jew workforce, composed-solely of the Zionist zealots. As intent was-to-replace the indigenous population with the young-Jew-settlers. So in denying the existence of Palestinian people, Zionists sought-to-create the political climate for their removal, not-only from-their-land, but from the history altogether.

Thus when acknowledged (if-at-all), the Palestinians were re-invented as-a-semi-savage, nomadic-remnant. Historical-records were falsified in-a-procedure that begun during the last quarter of the 19th century, but still continued to this day in-a-bogus writing-style of Joan Peter's ..."From Time Immemorial". When in reality, the connived elders-of-zion sought over the years an-imperial-sponsor for their bloody enterprise, as they proceeded in alternative succession to plot amongst the Jew aristocracy, within the Ottoman Empire, Imperial Germany and British Raj, Bourgeoisie France and Tzarist Russia in lieu of the final solution for Palestinians.

For an eye opener proceed to ... http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4737#50943

Who were likely-to-face Ottoman's style-resolve-like Armenians, slaughtered in the first sustained-genocide of-the-20th-century. As from-the-inception Zionist-doctrine-sought armenianization of Palestinian people. Who like-the-native Americans, were regarded as "a people-too-many". The logic-was-elimination; the record was to-be-one of a genocide. This was no-less-true-motto of the Zionist-Labor-faction, which-solely sought-to-canvass its "socialist" patina on the colonialist-enterprise. One-of-the principal-theorists of the Zionist-Labor and founder of the Zionist Ha'Poel Ha'Tzair (The-Young-Worker) as-well-as supporter of Poalei-Zion (Workers-of-Zion), was Aaron David Gordon.

Walter Laqueur acknowledges in his "History-of-Zionism", that AD Gordon and his comrades wanted-every-tree and every-bush to-be planted by the Zionist pioneers. Gordon even coined-a-slogan of Kibbush-Avodah (Conquest-of-Labor). As-he-called upon-the-Jew-capitalists and Rothschild's plantation-managers, who-had-obtained-land from absentee-Turkish-landlords over the heads of Palestinian people, to-hire-Jews and only-Zionists. Consequently WZO organised-boycotts of any colonist-enterprise that failed-to-employ exclusively Zionists.

Strikes-were-agitated against the colonists-who-allowed Arab peasants-to-share-a-crop or even-to-work as a cheap-labour. As Zionism's objective was-not-merely exploitation but usurpation. When at-the-turn of the 19th century, there-were over-a-thousand-of-villages in Palestine. Jerusalem, Haifa, Gaza, Jaffa, Nablus, Acre, Jericho, Ramle, Hebron and Nazareth were flourishing-towns. The hills were painstakingly terraced. Irrigation ditches crisscrossed the land. The citrus orchards, olive groves and grains of Palestine were known at the time throughout the world. Trade, crafts, textiles, cottage industry and agricultural production abounded.

The 18th and 19th century "Traveller's-Accounts" are replete with the data, as were the Scholarly-Quarterly-Reports, published in the 19th century by British Palestine Exploration Fund. In fact, it-was-precisely the social-cohesiveness-and-stability of Palestinian society which led Lord Palmerston in 1840 (when Britain had established-a-consulate-in-Jerusalem), to-propose-presciently the founding of European Jewish settler colony (as-a-preserve to-larger interests of the British-Empire). Whilst Palestinian society in spite-of-suffering from the devious-collaboration by the feudal-land-owners with the Ottoman-Empire's effendis, was nevertheless productive and culturally diverse, with the peasantry quite-conscious of its social-role.

As Palestinian peasants-and-urban-dwellers had-a-clear distinction between the Jews who lived-amongst-them, and would-be-colonists. Dating-from the 1820's, when 20,000 Jews of Jerusalem were-wholly-integrated and accepted in Palestinian-society. So when colonists at Petah-Tikvah sought-to-push Palestinian peasants off-their-land in 1886, they were certainly met with the organised-resistance, but-Jew-workers in the neighbouring villages and communities, were-wholly-unaffected. Likewise, when Armenians escaping Turkish genocide, settled in Palestine, they-were-welcomed.

"Why are there many civilian casualities in Lebanon? "

1. Actually They consider 'Terrorists' also as 'Civilians'
2. Terrorists fire rockets from civilian areas and flee to their hiding places. Israelis find the location from which rockets are fired and they target that place.


"Why are there less casualities in Israel?"

1. Israel's technology give warning signals so that the people can hide and protect themselves
2. Israeli soldiers aren't cowards. They won't behind civilians.

Jihadis, if you are brave enough fight Israelis bravely; don't hide behind civilians and cry "War crime"

The position of the USA in the last few weeks vis-a-vis Lebanon is evidence of an administration that is out-of-touch and increasingly irrelevant.

Such a policy is, in my view, self-defeating in terms of supporting Israel internationally, especially given the backlash that has occured because of this position.

Yet, as I perceive it, there is no issue in Jews lobbying, quite successfully, for an issue they feel very passionately about.

The author fails to recognise why Israel is very precious to most Jews. For most Jews, history is the record and proof. If it is criticised, and held accountable, as it is, then there is a view that the country's viability is threatened and thus most Jews feel personally threatened.

Thus, most Jews will support the work of the "Israel Lobby", even though most do not support the current Administration.

Fleurette's last post sounds like he/she wouldn't say no to a "final solution" of the Jewish problem being delivered by the medieval mullahs of Tehran. But to trust the benevolence of a regime that hangs 16 year-old girls for "crimes against chastity", is an indication of grand stupidity.

Posted by EnerGee, Wednesday, 9 August 2006 10:07:44 AM

That comment is laughable. If Israel is so selfish in it's quest for land and power that it is willing to sacrifice its own people in the process then who am I to mourn it's defeat?

Stop using over the top sensationalist language. Once again you cannot refute the real issue here and can only rely on drawing parallels with an irrelevant past and pointing the finger of blame at anyone else besides Israel. Hey it helps if they're Muslim and or/Arab but hey, those nasty Persians should do the trick!

Anything that happens to Israel from here on is it's own doing. I do feel for the people within those borders, particularly the Arab Israelis for the hardships they face everyday but also for the Jews and the Christians. No one deserves to be brainwashed into thinking their entire policy is self defence and that they are surrounded by Islamic fanaticals, only to realise at the very last second that it was all one big Zionist sham. It's unfair really. But don't blame me. Blame the government.

And more importantly the rest of the world agrees with us. Maybe they'll even come to our aid. So long as we have journalists like this:

http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/23157/Things_Americans_Won_t_See_On_The_News

Yes I agree with fleurette, the blind support for Israel's war in America is due to a strong pro-zionist bias in most of their media. There are, however, americans thet are standing up for the truth and realizing that Israel has betrayed - and even attacked!- the US several times. This radio show does a great job in researching and exposing zionist crimes and deception in the US, the middle east and the world: www.iamthewitness.com

Daniel06,

You asked me: "How is saying that Moslems are taking over Europe and the world any less racist than people saying the Jews control the world?"

- quite simply, the former is true while the later is false.
For Islam, conquering the world is a religious tenet, while Judaism has nothing parallel.

You continue to mention "Israels murder of inocent civilians", while no such murder ever occured (as I explained in http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4741#50521 ).

Just like you I hope for peace, but I am not deluded to believe that peace between Israel and Iran and its proxies will ever be possible. With Lebanon - yes, with the Palestinians - perhaps, they are mostly rational people, but not with insane Iran.

Finally, if need be, I'd rather be racist than dead.

Whatever we think of Israel's assault on Lebanon, all of us seem to agree about one fact: that it was a response, however disproportionate, to an unprovoked attack by Hizbullah. I repeated this "fact" in my last column, when I wrote that "Hizbullah fired the first shots". This being so, the Israeli government's supporters ask peaceniks like me, what would you have done? It's an important question. But its premise, I have now discovered, is flawed.

Since Israel's withdrawal from southern Lebanon in May 2000, there have been hundreds of violations of the "blue line" between the two countries. The United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon (Unifil) reports that Israeli aircraft crossed the line "on an almost daily basis" between 2001 and 2003, and "persistently" until 2006. These incursions "caused great concern to the civilian population, particularly low-altitude flights that break the sound barrier over populated areas". On some occasions, Hizbullah tried to shoot them down with anti-aircraft guns."

Fancy living with this then 2 bob and co? Who gave Israel the right to treat the region like a plaything torturing and tormenting everyone? This is what they do to the Palestinians as well.

It is outrageous that anyone on earth should support this from any country, especially a nation that the west created to salve their own guilt for the murder of 6 million Jews. Is that what we intended when Israel was set up? So that Israel can be murdering, terrorist thugs killing and maiming all their neighbours?

Yuyutsu,

So you're admitting that you (and Israel) are racist then? I guess its impossible to deny it.

Yuyutsu as for your delusions of an Islamic world take over I suggest you stop watching so many Hollywood movies. Like I said mate I have only recently returned from living in Europe and all of my partner's family still live there and I can assure you there is not a shred of evidence suggesting any Islamic invasion of Europe - militarily, culturally, psycologically any which way you look at it.

The only country in the world today who I see actively persuing an empirialist plan is Israel backed by the US.

Anyway, none of this matters to you anyway does it? Israel could start a nuclear war and destroy half the planet and you would somehow try to justify it and blame someone else.

Such blind faith, such unwillingness to even consider the facts, zero desire to scrutinize actions which are causing so much death and destruction really baffles me. I can assure you that if for example Australia were in the same position as Israel I would at least question what the government was doing - even if I ultimately agreed with them I would scrutinize any action which involved invading another country and killing loads of innocent civilians.

Just remember it was those who blindly followed with out question the Nazi regime in Germany that led to the death and destruction that happened there. How can you now inflict that on another people?

Hizbullah, unlike either the Palestinians or Israelis, has never shown any willingness to compromise on anything. For Hizbullah, all conflicts can only be resolved by violence.

Hizbullah, it seems clear, is the agent of Iran. It follows that Hizbullah's mindset is Iran's.

Iran is on the verge of acquiring nuclear weapons.

Think about it.

This conflict is a side show compared to what may be coming.

And for all the peace advocates on this site, why no interest in the conflict in the Sudan as discussed in Sonny Lee's article "Darfur Peace Agreement in Limbo." Mountains more people have been dying in that conflict than in Lebanon and yet it seems this is of no interest. Could it be that for all the rhetoric and outrage about civilian's being killed, people here are only interested in such horror if they can blame Israel or the US?

The following article by Lebanese Michael Béhé, fully explains how Israel is Lebanon's best friend.

http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=1479

Israel is saving Lebanon!

Michael concludes:

Like the overwhelming majority of Lebanese, I pray that no one puts an end to the Israeli attack before it finishes shattering the terrorists. I pray that the Hebrew soldiers will penetrate all the hidden recesses of southern Lebanon and will hunt out, in our stead, the vermin that has taken root there. Like the overwhelming majority of Lebanese, I have put the champagne ready in the refrigerator to celebrate the Israeli victory.

I keep seeing the same problem over and over and over.

Israeli's, Jews and those who bend over silly for Israel and Jews like a prostitute on crack, repetitively making excuses for the actions taken.

Someone asked me what else could they do. Are these people that daft?

If Israel was serious, they would have spoken with the Lebanese governments first and worked together. Israel is attacking ambulances, hospitals, refugee camps.

Israel has been killing children, lusting with pleasure. It is not just about Lebanese but how Israel treats all people be they Lebanese, Palestinians, Native Desert People, imported workers, etc.

Inside 90% of Israeli's lies a person craving to be the next mass murderer.

Spider,

Your name is very appropriate.

What does Israel hope to achieve - winning hearts and minds?

What does Israel hope to achieve - greater security after 1000 civilian neighbours have been slaughtered?

What does Israel hope to achieve - friendly relations with neighbouring countries?

What does Israel hope to achieve - people prepared to negotiate with them?

How can they possibly think so? Are they crazy? It's so obviously counterproductive!

Stan1,

What does Israel hope to achieve?
- removing the Iranian threat from both itself and its Lebanese brothers and sisters who languish under Iranian terror.

"1000 civilian neighbours have been slaughtered"?
- not a single civilian was slaughtered by Israel. A few were indeed killed because they were in the wrong place at the wrong time, but the majority of this number are Hezbullah fighters who would not admit it.

Why should Israel negotiate when it is already helping the Lebanese people unconditionally, and the Lebanese people thank Israel - http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=1479

Once the Iranians are removed from Lebanon, the Lebanese government and people will be able to thank Israel openly for saving them. Israel will then help Lebanon rebuild and the two countries will remain close friends and allies.

You really believe your own propaganda!
Wake up!

Has Iran or Hezbollah slaughtered the Christians in Lebanon? No. They have not slaughtered anyone in Lebanon. So tell me, why would Lebanon want to rid itself of Hezbollah - the one army which has defended it against the real terrorists? You claim Iran wants to make Lebanon a Shiite Muslim country. If this were the case then why are the Christians still in Lebanon? Why are the Jews living peacefully in Iran?

The only problem always has been and always will be Israel. Simple. No amount of propaganda can convince the world otherwise (unless they are stupid enough to believe it or unless they want to believe it's true because they themselves have some kind of affinity with Israel).

How can you say Israel has not slaughtered Lebanese civilians? I find that incredibly offensive. I can't believe you can say that 1000 civilians were just in the wrong place. THEY ARE IN THEIR COUNTRY THEY HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE THERE WITHOUT FEAR OF BOMBS, MISSILES AND ISRAEL.

Yet the 30 or so Israeli dead were deliberately targetted by Hezbollah?? Please! Spare us this diatribe.

The Lebanese hate Israel more than ever. If any of them want Hezbollah gone it does not mean they see Israel as the hero. 90% of public opinion is now against Israel with more and more people supporting Hezbollah. Israel has achieved and will achieve nothing but more hatred against it, more violence and more terrorism. It only has itself to blame.

And to answer the question what does Israel hope to achieve? It hopes to achieve that little slice of land in between Syria, near Jordan and Palestine. They want Lebanon. They want land. They are greedy, money hungry, power hungry aggressors who will stop at nothing.

There is no doubt whatsoever that James McConville is pro terrorist and anti Jew. I have not read anything as one sided and as politically partisan since the press shriekings against the so called “gun lobby” after Port Arthur.

Look James, if you want to write propaganda, it has to be good propaganda. The trick is to appear even handed, even when you are clearly not. Your effort is so transparently pro Islam that it is similar to the “spontaneous confessions” by US pilots shot down over Korea, that were presented to the United Nations by the Red Chinese, with titles such as ‘How My Cruel Capitalist Masters Forced Me To Wage Inhuman Germ Warfare On Peace Loving Socialist Civilians.”

Look James, unless you can come up with a valid reason why Israel should not shoot back at the Islamofascists who are shooting Katyushka rockets at their cities, then your little rant will have about as much impact on public opinion as last weeks form guide. Every intelligent person in this world understands the principle of self defence. And if you are trying to say that Muslims are really just nice, misunderstood guys who just want peace, then you definitely have a credibility problem with the Australian public.

The Israelis are dropping bombs on the Islamofascists, and most of the people who live in Cronulla or Maroubra, or who had loved ones blown to bits in Bali, would probably wish the Israeli bombardiers some good luck.

Marilyn Shepherd has a heart of cold stone. Her hatred for the West is so great that she cannot even condemn Iran for the execution of "that Iranian girl", (Atefah Sahaaleh by the way, Shepherd - she had a name) who was murdered by the Iranian regime for "acts incompatible with chastity". This poor girl was hung after being raped by an official or Iran's Islamic government - becoming unchaste in the process.

What is wrong with Shepherd that she can see no evil in this? Why can't she criticise evenhandedly? Why can't she condemn evil wherever it is, even if it is embarrassing to her cause? Now that "that Iranian girl" is dead at the hands of the Iranian sharia dictatorship, was does Shepherd have to say?

Like I said before, a fitting punishment for Shepherd's cruelty and support for religious dicatorships would be to be forced to live under a full-face burkha for the rest of her natural life in one of these sick sharia states that she so rabidly defends.

Fleurette, sorry to get down to your level of unfounded libel against innocent victims of terror, which you never even met: how can you say you did not enjoy slaughtering your grandmother? I find that incredibly offensive... don't try to sell me cheap excuses like she's still alive, Please! Spare us this diatribe - I tell you what you hope to achieve: you want her jewelery. You are greedy, money hungry, power hungry aggressor who will stop at nothing... The only problem always has been and always will be yourself. Simple. No amount of propaganda can convince the world otherwise (unless they are stupid enough to believe it or unless they want to believe it's true because they themselves have some kind of affinity with you).

The Jews still in Iran agreed to live as subordinate Dhimmis. They have (at least openly) given up their nationality and maintain Judaism merely as a religion. Their peace is relative and temporary. They will be kept alive for as long as it suits Iran's propaganda. Iran wishes to make not just Lebanon, but the whole world, a Shiite Muslim country, accepting no other way of life.

Those Lebanese civilians - much fewer than "1000" (most of whom Hezbullah fighters, who have a tactic of not admitting casualties), were hit because they were close to Hezbullah installations. Some allowed it while others were forced to have Hezbullah operate from their homes. Those who were not involved with Hezbullah had and still have nothing to fear.

If Israel wanted, Israel's air-force could alone destroy the whole of Lebanon, but this was never Israel's intention. Wherever Israel knew of the presence of civilians, it sent ground troops instead, resulting in casualties. Israeli mothers, wives and children lost their children, husbands and fathers, and many Israeli soldiers lost limbs because they risked their lives for the sole purpose of protecting Lebanese civilians.

Israel cares about their Lebanese brothers. Israel wants Lebanon for the Lebanese only and looks forward to helping Lebanon rebuild. Once free of fear, Lebanon will thank Israel openly as they now do in secret.

Stan1, don't you get it? It's ALL propaganda! Neither side is running short of bullsh*t to spew. People on one side, let's say the Israeli side have been spoon fed just as much bullsh*t as the people on the Hezbollah side. To think otherwise is not only naive, but ignorant.

I don't take sides.. you see I believe they're both as bad as each other. Of course the American tax payer pays for Israel's follies...so why shouldn't Iran pay for Hezbollah's? It's the same thing. Any higher ground the west and or Israel may of had has been lost a long time ago.

They all are as bad as each other. That my dear is the bottom line.

Peace - Stephanie.

http://www.politicallysound.com

Stepanie - I agree with you 100%. I have made the same point many times on these threads. The behaviour of both (all?) sides indicates that none of the powers involved in the ME are interested in the lives and well being of their citizens or peace would have been brokered by now.

The sooner Western powers such as the USA can ween itself off fossil fuel, the sooner it can stop interferring in the ME. However that is not the entire problem and is too simplistic a solution.

There is, also, the vested interest from the Christian fundies with their belief in the 'second coming' and the spectre of the Project for the New American Century, whose aim is no less than USA style 'democracy' by force. Both of the USA based organisations are unlikely to cease their support of Israel and their pressure on the ME.

I checked out your blog, Stephanie - good to see that I am not the only person alarmed by the PNAC.

Stephanie

A nation that hangs a 16 year-old girl for "crimes against chastity" (Iran) and that ferociously persecutes religious minorities (Iran) should in any sane person's opinion be worse than the United States. And yes, there is a lot wrong with the United States. But Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is 100 times more barking loonie than George Bush. See http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4527142.stm for a good example.

Stephanie,

To simply assume that because both sides have killed innocents and are biased, that both sides are therefore equivalent, is a complete cop out.

Israel, though perhaps illegitimatly born, is still an internationally recognised nation state, and a democracy, which has a right to defend itself against cross border attacks. Hizbullah, on the other hand, are a terrorist organisation, who have no political mandate to act as they do anywhere, let alone within Lebanon.

That there are people who would side with Hizbullah over Israel, I can understand, but I cannot understand how anyone can side with Hizbullah over Lebanon. Regardless of whether Israel is justified in bombing/invading Lebanon, surely even those opposed to Israel ought to be opposed to the brazen way in which Hizbullah has chosen to usurp and ignore the democratic government of Lebanon. It has, for a considerable period, effectively controlled significant Lebanese territory and started this conflict by taking unilateral military action against a neighbouring nation without Lebanese government approval. Surely this is every bit as wrong as Israel's present seizure of Lebanese territory? Indeed, the Hizbullah action made an Israeli response of some military kind inevitable, and to that extent, Hizbullah, must bear at least some responsibility for those killed by the Israelis.

The silence of the anti-Israeli lobby on this aspect of the present conflict is astounding.

A headline in today’s West Australian reports the following:

1. In waging its long war against the Israelis, the big winner might be Hizbollar leader, Hassan Nasrallah - for now. One surprise also has been the strong leadership of Lebanese Prime Minister, Fouad Siniora.

2 The report goes on to say that Israel has already lost a lot in the eyes of the world, for using the capture of three Israelies by Hizbollah as an excuse to do the damage it has done to Lebanese buildings etc, as well as to its people.

3. The conflict has also proven as with the Americans in Iraq, as well as formerly in Vietnam, that democracy, where there was not democracy beforehand, is almost impossible to achieve by military means.

4. The report goes on to say that America’s image abroad could emerge badly shattered, in part because of prolonged negotiations widely perceived in the Arab world as deliberate to let Israel pursue its military agenda against any part of the Arab world that is anti-Israeli.

5. The one who has been battered the worst from the report has been Condoleeza Rice, whose comments about the Israeli structural damage and slaughter in Lebanon, as simply the “birth pangs of a new Middle East” were particularly insensitive and cruel. Certainly doesn’t say much for one who is now regarded by her American bosses as the world’s premier diplomat

Kalin,

cc: Stephanie

Do you really see Israel as "illegitimatly born"? If so, why? How are states legitimatly born? What separates the legitimate ones from the illegitimate ones? And if not, why suggest that it was "perhaps illegitimatly born"?

I refuse to get caught up in a discussion on semantics.
This is basically my bottom line on the subject..My thoughts have come to one, perhaps two conclusions...and it's about the way the American government deals with things... This is but one example...

Yuyutsu,

You are one fine example of why there is a growing resentment of Jewish people. Jew's are behaving like the Nazi's of 21st Century with their tactics against others.

You should not complain about any sort of living standard of Jews in Iran while Israel only gives building permits to Jews, leaving Arabs and such living in squalor. Forcing Native Desert people in huts with no sewage, no employment, no education, etc.

I speak with a Muslim fella living in a European nation. He says that Jewish people drive through Muslim populated areas all the time without any trouble. Whenever a Muslim walks or drives or even walks into a shop in Jewish populated suburbs, the police are called to have them removed.

Such hatred. Such lusting for the blood of others.

Spider,

I do not agree with your observation as if resentment of Jewish people is on the increase. Jews were hated throughout history and there is no particular spike in that today.

I do not approve of any mistreatment of Israeli Arabs and when it happens, it needs to be corrected. Note however, that the issue you mentioned has nothing to do with those people being Arabs, but rather them being "desert people" in a shrinking world, just as we also have similar problems with our aboriginal population. Nobody is forced into huts away from infrastructure - those people are free to live wherever they wish, but they prefer to stay in the desert (outback?) close to their traditional grazing lands.

About Arabs in European Jewish suburbs, it is sad, but have you considered why it is so? has any Jew ever attacked Arabs in Europe?

Oh, and where have I complained about the living stanards of Iranian Jews?

Sganot,

I do not believe that Israel was illegitimately born, and my use of the phrase "perhaps illegitimately born" was a qualified concession to the anti-Israeli readers because I wanted to avoid all the tired historical arguments which are so often used in these threads to negate debate on current issues.

Since you insist, I have to say I have no firm thoughts on how any nation state can be born legitimately, Israel included. Virtually all modern states can trace their origins to the violent usurpation of earlier states/peoples and in that sense are all arguably illegitimate in a vague moral sense.

Israel, is merely a very recent example.

To judge Israel's creation in a moral sense is problematic. The Holocaust provided a powerful incentive for the Jewish peoples, scattered throughout the world, to form their own state, but the creation of Israel inevitably led to conflict with non-Jews seeking a different future for the same land - the Palestinians. What followed is a matter for historians and I don't really want to debate it. On balance, I take the Israeli side in what followed, but no side can claim very much of the moral high ground.

Ultimately, I don't believe it matters now whether Israel was born 'legitimately.' It has been here for 59 years and its founding generation, heroes and villains, are almost gone. Israel is here to stay and the morality of its creation is no more relevant to the future than the morality of earlier Arab occupation of the same lands or of the Australian occupation of aboriginal lands.

I always knew that spiders were creepy but after reading the comments above by 'Spider', it would appear that their human version is just as creepy as well. He certainly has read his copy of "The Protocols of the (Learned) Elders of Zion" well, hasn't he?

Talk about really dumb people – but then again most of the Jewish lobby is dumb and ignorant anyway ...

Zionism: A Conspiracy Against Jews
In 1935 the steamer "Tel Aviv" made its maiden voyage from Nazi Germany to Haifa with Hebrew letters on its bow and a Nazi flag fluttering from its mast. The Captain of the Zionist-owned ship was a member of the Nazi Party. A passenger described the spectacle as a "metaphysical absurdity."

Actually it made perfect sense.

The ship transported German Jews who had taken advantage of the "Haavara" program, which allowed them to exchange their money for its value in Germany products in Palestine. As a result, the fledgling Jewish colony received about 70,000 highly educated German Jews and 140 million Reichmarks worth of German industrial equipment. This laid the foundation of Israel's infrastructure.

The arrangement also boosted the Nazi economy at a time when Jews worldwide were boycotting German products. (My main source is "The Secret Contacts" by Klaus Polkehn a prominent German journalist. It is included in Olivia O'Grady's The Beasts of the Apocalyse, 2001, 421-447.)

Why retell this story of Zionist-Nazi cooperation now?
Because "Jewish" leaders have been exploiting their "lesser brethren" for a long time, and are doing so today. Ordinary Jews pay the price and this price could rise.
In my opinion, Zionism is a movement to deceive Jews into advancing the objectives of British imperialism. (See, "The Jewish Conspiracy is British Imperialism") Zionists who have built their lives on a false premise naturally will reject this view.

Specifically, Jews helped the British-Jewish elite colonize the oil-rich Middle East under the pretext of Jews needing a national home. Despite the appearance of neutrality, the British (and Americans) financed, trained and equipped the Jews. (John Coleman, Diplomacy by Deception p. 107.)

The "British" are really the London-based international banking cartel associated with names like Rothschild and Rockefeller. It doesn't answer to any government. Its goal is to colonize the world and everyone in it. Jews are a means to this end.
http://www.savethemales.ca/000482.html

Kekenidika,

What relevance do the stories you tell, even if they were true, possibly have to 21st century Israel?

Wake up, zionism is something of the past: its aim was to establish a Jewish state on the land of Israel. Once that state was established, zionism was over. Since then, time has not stood by, those people involved in your stories, even if they were true, have probably died (or are senile) and several new generations were born. There are new dynamics, Israel has a life of its own and no longer even depend on zionism.

Just get it:

Israel is there - and there to stay. It is a Jewish state. It is strong. It is democratic. It accepts minorities so long as they are not hostile. There are many conflicting views within it, but when attacked, it unites and strikes back.

Yuyutsu

Yes, Israel is real and the Arab states need to get over it. However, one just has to ponder, why, as the 'new kid on the block' Israel decided to extend its borders instead of using diplomacy to try and win over it's hostile neighbours.

You cannot deny that there is a great deal of very poor behaviour on all sides in the ME debacle.

With Washington continuing to prop up Israel, invade Iraq and beat its chest about who has the right to nukes, one can understand (if not forgive) the reactions and suspicions the Arab states hold towards Israel.

Again I ask if any of the players in this bloodthirsty game are truly interested in bringing about peace and ending the bloodshed of their citizens? Nothing, thus far, indicates that anyone really wants peace, I suspect it is that other "P" word; power.

Scout, there is no 'P' in there: the correct spelling is F-E-A-R.

The first thing to look at before reading any article is what the motives, intentions and integrity of the author are like.

Clearly, "Dr James McConvill" is no Professor Laurence Tribe or Professor Alan Dershowitz. He is an ex senior lecturer at one of the world's worst law schools. It is ranked not even in the top 100. He would not have got a job anywhere else because he has no academic capability and plagiarises all his work. Including anti semitic propaganda.

Where did he get his doctorate? I bet my balls it wasn't Harvard or Yale.

"Dr" my arse. The only people that take this "ex academic" seriously are people too dumb to even be on the Faculty at the Melbourne University Law School

P,

I disagree.

When you judge an article based on the credentials of it's author, your judgement is only as valid as your own credentials.

This would effectively silence everyone less scholarly than the author and obscenely overrates academic achievement as an indicator of wisdom.

As they say, Play the ball not the man.

•Redneck..."There is no doubt whatsoever that James McConville is pro-terrorist and anti-Jew"... Slurred in a despicable tone Zionist-brigade disinfo-propagandist! Utilising malicious slander with the impunity on OLO forum, hosting reputable author. Who having to face anonymous bigots, lacking elementary decency to divulge a propos Zionist atrocities perpetration against the ordinary Jews.

When a deeper analysis of macabre reality to attest that it's wrong to lump all the Jews together with the evil fanaticism, that supremacist Zionism has come to represent. It insults an ample of sane raised Jews and deflects vital debate from the real issues in question. Whilst the hysterical Zionist fanatics are eager-as-norm to slur the opposing opinion holders with anti-Semitic mania. Versus those brave enough to speak-out amongst our Jew dissidents.

Who condemn so painfully obvious fascist hegemony and Zionist crimes committed against the humanity. Just as devious Zionists veiled under revolved aliases cast, evidently having a great stake in blurring the deep-rooted disparity between the Jews. How else they to utilise otherwise our Jew-lesser brethren embodiment? Scapegoated as a human shield to deflect focus from the actual evil-doers.

Having said that, one ought to observe now the frenzied Zionist mentality. To see how they react, like a savage pack of the rabid dogs, when they sense that their connived interests being challenged. Unveiled precisely via imperative exposé, concerning Jew dissidents peace activists faced hate-mail from the maniacal Zionist vigilantes. Reported in Guardian by Brian Whitaker: http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,1126294,00.html

Exposing conscientious Jew activists incessantly faced harassment and intimidation tactics via email and internet forums. Due to commonsensical stance taken by Jew-lesser brethren versus racist Zionism of the brutal onslaught on humanity. As a result dissident Jew singer and a music teacher (living in London) received sudden deluge of the hate-mail.

One came from New York's rabbi to inform her: "Your soul, my dear, is petrified and lost"... Another menacingly said: "Hitler killed the wrong Jews"... Still another ostensibly from a Jew doctor of medicine in the US, elaborated on a holocaust theme: "Too bad Hitler didn't get your family", it said.

What are the constituent parts of authority? http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4750#55550