I wish someone didn't mention the Bali bombings, it is hard enough for me to deal with the World Trade Centre.

I taught some of those kids that were killed in the Bali Bombings. As any teacher would, my heart sank and I actually threw-up my dinner when I saw their names on the news. I couldn't eat for days, or sleep. They were delightful Aussie kids.

I knew people who worked in the World Trade Centre, in advertising who were creative and wonderful people. They died at 9 / 11. Dead. It just didn't make sense.

Dee, my apologies for offending you or anyone with the word "alzheimers", I take that back. I was wrong.

With emotions aside over these deaths, I still think of the deaths of the Children in Iraq. Is it worth it?

Personally I don't understand this thing of raping and killing women and children as defence in the Qua'ran. I'm not Islamic, so I don't understand the context that it may be intended.

I noticed, however, something from most of the families and friends from the Bali bombs, and the World Trade Centre. Most are deeply hurt by what happened. They still don't blame the entire religion of Islam, and this is my point.

Personally I think that the Bali terrorist: Bashir should have the same sentence as the Australian drug smugglers: death. If Indonesia's inquisition legal system goes by example, then by example, it would be consistent to show respect for our kids that were murdered. He should never be released. Criminal. Whether he is Islam, Christian or Voo Doo, it makes no difference. But I am emotionally involved on this topic. Indonesia is a coward when they are ruthlessly tough on drugs, yet slack on terrorists because they are affraid of their own religion.

Yet we can't afford to cloud our minds in thinking that this is a holy war. It is a war that was supposed to be about terrorism. It is frustrating how Indonesia does not help this clarification.

Dear Saint
just to be accurate here.
The "Justification of killing women and children" is not in the Quran.
Its in the hadith, which has many traditions from the words of Mohamed and is used as one basis of Islamic law.

Taken together (along with the histories and biographies) they constitute the 'Sunnah', from which the term 'Sunni' Muslims is derived.
The 2 main hadith (sayings/oral tradition) authorities in Islam are the Hadith by Bukhari and by Muslim (the guys name).
I better give you the actual reference so you can read it yourself.

It is correct that the accidental killing of woman and children in Iraq is QUITE ACCEPTABLE in Islamic law. So, if it repulses you, please be repulsed at the faith which specifically justifies it.

There is no "justification" of it by the West, it is described as a regrettable fact of an unfortunate war, driven by Muslim insurgents against their own ELECTED government at this time.

Book 019, Number 4321: (scroll down from the main web reference cited below, to this number.

Here is another quaint one
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/muslim/019.smt.html
Chapter 1: REGARDING PERMISSION TO MAKE A RAID, WITHOUT AN ULTIMATUM, UPON THE DISBELIEVERS WHO HAVE ALREADY BEEN INVITED TO ACCEPT ISLAM
Book 019, Number 4292

This is in direct conflict with the Quranic idea of 'defensive' fighting only. It justifies the WTC attack and embassy attacks.

The 'spoils of war' (including women) made SPECIALLY LAWFUL for this UMMAH (Islamic community.) i.e. "Whats mine is mine and what is yours soon WILL be mine also." Book 019, Number 4327

The contrast between this tone and that of Jesus could not be more STARK.... I have not the slightest hesitation in saying "My religion is better than Islam" but to qualify, I don't see it as 'mine' I see the events of Christs life, death and resurrection as absolutely from God, so its 'His' religion if we have to use a term. There is no comparison.

Irfan, "I respect the fact that OLO forum moderators allows your comments here (though I can't help but wonder if they would allow such comments if any other faith were the target)."

Irfan have a read of some of the comments made about christains and their "faith" across various threads. The moderators have clearly allowed extensive discussion which includes comments which many chistians could find quite offensive. Likewise attacks on my own beliefs have been fairly intense at times and I have not seen signs of any posts being pulled for challenging the validity of athiest/agnostic beliefs or pulled for claims about the history of actions by people holding those viewpoints.

Many of those debates include an element of name calling etc but for the most part some of us on both sides of the christain/agnostic debate attempt to have dialog. Answering questions put to us, trying to put forward reasoned arguments to explain our viewpoints etc.

Other belief systems seem to have a much lower profile in Australia and don't come up for discussion in the same manner.

Your implied accusation against the moderators is in my view quite unfair and demonstrates a narrow viewpoint on your part. Get over your "poor us" mentality and start answering the questions put to you. Your failure to answer questions put by the mossie basher brigade plays into their hands.

R0bert

Saintfletcher & all
I feel sorry for what happened in Bali and other terrorists attacks in Indonesia, such attacks are absolutely anti-Islamic.

But just to give you another point of view, this is mine.

Abu bakar bashir was not proven guilty for Bali bombings. Surely he is radical muslim, but not in the sense that he is a bomber terrorist. He and the rest of Surakartan radicalists were the enemies of the past regime, who ever forced Pancasila as the only allowed ideology in Indonesia, and those guys undergroundly had been rejecting such obligation for they thought Islam should be their first ideology. Their leaders were hunted by Suharto and some of them escaped to malaysia.

They have many things to do with the Indonesia Republic, and not likely their business were 'exploding the christians'. If they did such bombings, Indonesian leaders who ever presecuted them might be their first targets.

The western govs accused him because of his "inflammatory speeches". Finally he was charged for his plot against goverment, and an immigration scandal. The trial was just a kind of PR work of Indonesia government, and likely was not yet satisfactory for the western public.

The true orchestrators of those bombings are then, still misteriuous. Just like the 9/11,that raised many speculations.

If one think every muslims who ever gave 'inflammatory speech' must be sentenced to death, then I believe more other muslims would deserve to die, for even in Jumat prayers, often the radicalists sounds 'inflammatory' about America and Zionists' conspiracies. Perhaps you need to send bomber aircrafts regularly to their mosques.

But then what all the law instutions were built for, if ones want are just their satisfications. Should American drop an explosive to assasinate this Bashir,in order the western public to be satified?

Perhaps then, U.S gov and others has been doing these 'satisfactory' works in Afghan and Iraq. Satisfactory actions for their public need as well as the capitalists' needs behind those actions.

"I respect the fact that OLO forum moderators allows your comments here (though I can't help but wonder if they would allow such comments if any other faith were the target)."

Comments like these on the Islamic site Umma Newslinks, perhaps?

A false report surfaced this week that the Danish editor of the paper that originally printed the Muhammad cartoons has been killed in a fire. Here are some comments from caring, humane Muslims:

* breaking - the artist who drew the pictures of the Prophet Muhammed (S.A.W)has died in a fire. He was burned alive. Denmark government is hiding the news from the public and everyone has got to know. Plz spread this.... (its the price one must pay 4 the insult of Allahs Prophet(S.A.W).

* If this is true. Its a punishment WELL DESERVED. You don't mess with Allah(swt) last Prophet.

* his a NONMUSLIM...no mercy for u guyz when u die

* ook At This Double Standards.
Shiekh Abu Musab [al-Zarqawi] Rahimahullah Becomes A Shaheed And All The Kufaar [unbelievers] Are Happy. This Kaafir Dies And They Expect Us Not To Get Happy? If You Can get Happy Then So Can We.

* Allaaaaaaaaahu Akbarrrrr! i just love the smell of crispy danish bacon!

* Allah is the Most Merciful as well as the Most Just. So yeh the pig deserves to burn in the deepest pits of hell.... yeh....ameen to du'as [prayers] Islam is not 'lets all hold hands and sing in the Church', whilst letting the people do whatever they want!

Nice, huh? What do you say, Irf

dee, Irfan's comment was in regard to this site. I think that he is being grossly unfair to the moderators with his comment but it is just as unfair to hold Irfan responsible for the kind of material you refer to. Whilst I have often disagreed with Irfan he has posted articles condeming Islamic extremism. I find his approach to engaging in discussion with posts very disapointing but nothing I have ever seen of Irfan's writing suggests any kind of support for the type of material you refer to.

Irfan is probably very well aware of the kind of hate filled bile coming from some sections of Islam just as most of us are aware that extremists from our own belief structures say things we detest.

I'd like to see Irfan answer some of the questions which have been put to him by posters on this thread, I suspect that throwing the extremist stuff at him distracts readers from his unwillingness to answer those questions.

Likewise I'd like to see him apologise to the OLO team for the slur implied in that last post of his.

R0bert