Robert - I wasn't trying to blame Irf for the comments at UmmaNews, I was just trying to make a dent in his 'Muslims are always victims' spiel. Irf accused me of being 'full of hate' etc - I posted these comments so that he could see the thoughts of people who are really 'full of hate', comments celebrating the fact that someone was burned to death - an editor who was not their enemy, but merely published something they didnt like. What did they do when they discovered the news was false, I wonder? Perhaps Irf will read these comments, then compare them to mine. Then he can see who is 'full of hate', huh?

"Likewise I'd like to see him apologise to the OLO team for the slur implied in that last post of his".

Same. I would also like an apology for the things he wrote about me. I have never posted 'racist' sentiments about Muslims and everything I write regarding Islam is true. Irf obviously sees anyone stating the truth or refusing to make excuses for Muslims as 'full of hate' - this confusion of thought is in the same category as accusing people of victimising Muslims, yet refusing to admit that there is every reason for people to distrust them.

Why did Irf contribute the article if he didn't wish to hear from those who disagree?

dee, sorry if I've misunderstood your intent. I might be suffering from overload of the chronic mossie bashers who insist on denigrating all muslims because of the actions of some (generally while insisting that evil committed in the name of christianity is nothing to do with "real" christains).

I think the continual attacks by the mossie bashers enhance the isolation of muslims and increase the likelyhood of conflict. Likewise Irfan's persistant calls of "armchair nazi" and failure to address some fairly basic questions decreases the likelyhood of real dialog.

I keep hoping that Irfan will get over his angst at the nasty behaviour of that group and engage in dialog with the rest of us. Having said that Irfan and other muslim posters put up with a lot of hate messages on this site (regardless of how much the posters claim to love muslims), none of us non muslims have had to put up with the mulim hate messages here. We would have to look elsewhere for that stuff.

R0bert

Hello from Terengganu, Malaysia!

I am not in a position to respond to the various posts made here as the cost of using internet in my hotel is quite prohibitive (even when converted into Malay Ringgits!). But I notice some people here have repeated the same point a number of times.

RObert, I haven't read the forums pertaining to articles on Christian doctrine. I will read them. If what you say is correct, I stand to be corrected.

RObert, if I wrote that all Catholics are pedophiles, I think you would be justified in refusing to answer me and dismissing my words as blind prejudice. Making generalisations about huge multi-ethnic and multi-cultural congregations such as Catholicism and Islam is just plain silly.

dee, in all the time I have contributed to this forum, I have not heard you say a single positive (or indeed, non-negative) thing about Islam or Muslim people. I therefore asked you questions about whether you have asked or spoken to Muslims.

dee, if you believe Muslims are so bad, perhaps you should write to the National Australia Bank and ask them to sack their CEO. Or maybe you should write to Senator Vanstone and have her sack one of her top departmental advisers.

If you are determined to merely cast aspersions and accusations, that is your prerogative. But if you do so, it is my prerogative to dismiss your words as prejudiced rant.

dee, can you find anything even slightly positive to say about Islam and Muslims? Or are all Muslims (including some staff at the Australian High Commission in KL) just a bunch of violent psychopathic murderers?

I just keep parroting a conservative line that this was supposed to be a war on terror, not a war on Islam, but so many here want this to be a holy war.

So I'll scroll back to the original question "the death of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi should be cheered by Muslims": well excuse me, this is an absurd statement.

I don't, as some of you know, identify as Christian in my religion, though I think I follow Jesus as unworthy as I am. Some of my spirituality is more Aboriginal. All our grandmothers in all cultures told us the cardinal rule over them all on this issue in superstition. The old "tapu" for our Kiwi readers, or bad Karma for the Hindu. You simply do not dance on someone's grave. A truely spiritual person simply doesn't do that. As much as the Towers and Bali Bombings upset me, I was overwhelmed by sadness when I saw the way they bombed his village.

I don't even think they should build on the site of the twin towers at all. The Balinese got it right. My belief is that the 10,000 people are still on ground zero in NY, especially after such an horrific, unjustified death. So you leave it alone as sacred or Tapu.

I mentioned my feeling on justice before on Bashir in Bali. I think his motive and malicious intent was worthy of restraint, even if the crime has missing evidence. He is still a dangerous man.

I would never cheer if he was punnished, only the opposite: sad that such a situation could possibly happen. I feel sad that crime is justified my a religion. That does not mean I hate Islam. If anyone wants to invite me to a mosque, I would be interested to see the rituals for myself, and just go along with it for the experience. Even part Aboriginal, I can't promise to be converted into an Australian Malcolm X. lol The dreamtime is too strong to penetrate.

Or maybe this is the real story. This will make you all laugh. Take a look.

http://motherjones.com/commentary/fiore/2006/06/gaymarriage.html

Irfan... Terengganu ? hmmmm u better learn "Saya mau makan" (I wanna eat) and "jangan kachau!" (stop annoying me :) Not to forget "Dimana jamban ?" (where is the loo)

I'd be interested in your observations of community life and especially the 'Islamic Law' side of things. I know Kelantan is quite strict and Terengganu is heading in that direction. Do they have Male and Female checkouts in K.T. ? I heard they did in Kelantan.

The most positive things to say about Muslims is that many of them are very gracious, kind, and friendly, like the Persian bloke I met at gym the other night. I attribute this to a number of factors.

1/ Basic personality
2/ A sense of appreciation that he is free and safe in Australia (His brother in law was executed for having the wrong flavor politics in Iran)

I don't know how much I can actually attribute to his religion.

The debate about Islam is not about 'Muslims'. Just as the debate about Christianity should not be about 'Christians'. In both cases it should be about fundamentals/doctrines etc.

Example: 2006 Zarqawi's successor claims.....

"We give the good news … to the Islamic nation that we have carried God's verdict by slaughtering the two captured crusaders. With God Almighty's blessing, Abu Hamza al-Muhajer carried out the verdict of the Islamic court.

So, we ask "where could they obtain this 'doctrinal' idea from" ?

Maybe Surah 47.4

When you meet the unbelievers in the Jihad strike off their heads and, when you have laid them low, bind your captives firmly. Then grant them their freedom or take ransom from them, until War shall lay down her burdens. 47:4

This explains:

1/ Kidnapping for Ransom.
2/ Beheading.
3/ The rare 'giving them their freedom'

All soundly based on a correct interpretation, not taken out of context.
This is so incredibly foreign to New Testament teaching as to be like another world.