Well said Kay :)

Diane/Scout.. I don't recall claiming u are 'dumb' but I DO recall you saying such things about me .. "lacking intelligence and wit" or words to that effect..

I really don't think much new can be said on this thread. My hearts desire though is to put my arms around all of you in humble human affection.. but it might creep some out :) specially Redneck I'd say. Here we are.. grappling with things important to us, disagreeing sure.. making our cases..refining them, repeating them...

I don't think we need be ashamed of such activity in a debate/opinion forum and specially for those who continually attribute 'hate' to disagreement, *sigh* surely that line is done to death no ?

Redneck is entitled to his view, as is Diane, F.H. and Robert and the rest of us. What I think some of the Scout/Robert/Wibble/Dawood/Irfan/MikeM crowd are missing is this, "We don't actually LIVE in this forum", we are real people, who bleed, emotionally and physically. So I think its a bit of a stretch to take our competing statements as indicative of a crowd carrying torches in the night dressed in pointy hooded costumes.

Actually 'F.H.' is just about the only Muslim on the forum who 'gets' where I'm coming from, and who understands that I don't hate him.
I dunno why Scout doesn't get this.

Oh..Scout.. we just finished our Church Camp. I was pusher/shover and treasurer, and the CHAIR was a ..wait for it.. LADY :) she nagged me something aweful about stirring the campers to get to dinner on time and guess what.. I didn't tell her her 'place' :) -I don't see you existing in the confines of 'your' description of my position about women, there must be some issue which continues to make it 'come across' to you so negatively.

blessings to all.

RedNeck,

You raised two conceptual points:

First point: few Imams are known with ‘fiery’ anti-non Muslims comments. I agree and I acknowledge that. The overwhelming majority I have listened to in Australian mosques however (Sydney, Melbourne, Canberra and Brisbane) are the normal Imams who plainly promote harmony, acceptance and understanding. These
The ‘anti-Jewish’ Imams emerged since mid 1950 and they use the Israeli occupation of Palestinians lands as a “Muslims versus Jews”. This is stupid and counter productive in my view. The Israeli Palestinian land struggle is just that “Israeli Palestinian” and not Muslims vs Jews. The Quran confirms the Mosaic laws and Jews lived safely amongst Muslims since Islam came to earth. Many Judeo-Christian movements in North America sadly like to promote this view as well so not all the nuts are in our camp.

Second point: many modern scholars use the ‘intent’ of Shariah to raise question re old punishment like the apostate’s death. I do believe in religious freedom and people are given the choice of faith according to the HolyBook.

I am not sure where did you get the “non-people of the book should convert to Islam or be murdered”. The Quran clearly states that Muslims should honour their peace treaties. Back those days being at war was a state of norm so bi-lateral peace treaties were their way to recognise sovereignty and borders.

As for the personal on whether you are a fornicator, it’s really none of my business and only God can judge who you are and what you do.

Boazy,

I do understand you don’t hate me personally :-) . No need to worry about hiring a food taster when you invite me to lunch. Cross (or crescent:-))this one off my list.

Peace and good weekend,

Boaz

You lifted the words "lacking intelligence and wit" in a post of mine where I was attacking ALL the extremist posters to this thread. That you have chosen to take this personally suggests that you include yourself with the extremists on OLO.

Now, you provide a little anecdote regarding a "lady" as being a chairperson at your little club. Good for you, giving the "ladies" a little boost to their paricipation in the evangelical church. Could you please repeat your beliefs regarding the order of men, women and god - I don't want to get it wrong. But I think it goes something like this:

Women follow their hubbies guidance and their hubbies follow god's guidance.

This implies that not only are women secondary to men but that they should be married. And I guess they need to be "ladies" as well if they want to participate as chairpersons. Or is that chairlady in your little world?

I'm a woman - I can choose what I want to wear, how I want to breed, whether I want to marry and I can also fart, belch, swear, ride motorbikes to my hearts content - just like any other HUMAN BEING. Whereas being a "LADY" means not doing very much at all - unless one is a fan of Little Britain, suggest you check out the "laaaadies" on that wonderful TV comedy.

Furthermore, not being restricted to "ladylike" behaviour I am in complete rejection of ALL religious extremists. You never seem to notice that this not only refers to Christian fundies but includes Muslim fundies as well - this point never seems to register with you Boaz.

Where I do take issue is where innocent groups of people (in this case Muslims) are constantly berated, maligned, vilified and blamed for any and everything.

Martin Ibn W. - the tenor of your posts to me are frequently patronising and condescending, as well you are always pushing the Christian agenda - even though aware I reject formal religion. This is not respectful, yet you tell me to "moderate" my language! Hypocrisy.

We do not need to sex up the Arab story in Western Sydney we just have to state the facts.

In the last 24 hours in Sydney there has been 35 incidents involving armed hold ups with hand guns or drive by shootings on homes in the South West of Sydney, including two murders. One of the persons shot also had a handgun which means we have terrorism happening in Sydney Streets. It is war.

We do not wish to be impolite to persons like F_H but his attitudes and bahaviour is not typical of the problems we face with Muslims in Sydney.

Once middle class suburbs like Guilford and Merrylands are now turning into Arab war zones. The Arab youths gather at mosques to plan their antisocial attacks. They consider they are at war with the Alglos so they believe the principles of war as supported by the Quor'an apply.

F_H could you please list how Muslims are to behave in war?
So we might be able to combat them.

Philo,

Crime related gangs in Australia could be a mix of law enforcement, bad parenting and maybe poor immigration policies. I refuse to believe that a highly educated/ uni graduate for example will or can be involved in what you are claiming.

Aussie immigration policy is mainly concerned with low/ no skills labour which have its impact on the quality of migrants and subsequently the ‘imported’ socio-economical problems. I am not being biased but Australian Muslims are way behind American Muslims for example in many aspects of education, contribution to the society, etc…(Even American Muslims of Lebanese origin are vastly different from Australian Muslims of Lebanese background).

Gangs can’t be a ‘Muslims issue’. Why is it only Lebanese and why is it only Sydney? You will probably the find the culprits have the same criminal records in their own home countries.

As for ‘Muslims at war’ question, can’t really tell, the only war I was involved in Aug 90 to Sep 91 was the first gulf as a conscripted corporal in the borders and coast guards division. The enemy at the time was Iraqi Muslims.

RObert, sorry sir. I picked up on your words "reasonable assumptions" and used those to straighten young Boaz out. Boaz tends to make a lot of unreasonable assumptions. I don't think you have ever responded to Rancitas before, and you are one of the more level-headed thinkers - so it is reasonable to assume that I owe you an apology. I am sorry for unintentionally misrepresenting you. (Handshake)