Scout, that’s the third time you’ve said you have been abused etc. I can’t let that pass again. Are you able to point to an example? I will apologise if you can find one.

Now that you mention it why did you say that I had damned you to Hell, I’ve never said any such thing.

How can anyone be sure about that anyway? Someone we think is really nice could have had all the advantages and done very little with it, someone we think a fiend may have done an enormous amount of good to overcome disadvantage. Obviously the latter is on the way to glory, the start of a life of great power, joy and a blissful dream come true - the former off to an eternal sub-humanity somewhere of their choosing - Hell. All this really is none of my business. It’s always been between the individual and God. Our judgments on the human level about such things will mostly miss the mark.

Of course in principle if someone deliberately rejects Jesus does nothing for anyone but themselves then they get to live forever as they have lived, separated from the God from whom all good things come.

I can correct you when you make factual errors, particularly in relation to the Christian religion and religion in general, simply because I know more about it than you do. As you do about subjects I’m not familiar with. I’d refrain from definitive comment about these and tend to be more enquiring hoping to learn from you in these cases.

I have to admit I was offended when I read what you had said about me.

I hope you will keep to the standards you say others are not observing.

A straw man is when we re-fashion another's argument to make it sound absurd so that it is easy to demolish. This is not argument it is the avoidance of it. This looks like what you have done to alot of the criticism of Islam.

To RObert

I put it to you, RObert, that so called “moderate Muslims” endorse the core values of Islam. These core values are unmistakably dangerous to non Muslims. You did not answer my question that I put to you. Why do you want people to immigrate to Australia who’s self declared religious dogma instructs them to murder you? How plain does a threat need to be before people like yourself stop making excuses for people who make no bones about their hostility?

Once again, you are snivelling about how naughty it is to judge people on their group affiliations. Get it through your head that everybody does it. If you met a person who told you that he was a Nazi or a member of the Ku Klux Klan, are you seriously trying to say that you would not judge that person from his group affiliations? Do you have any Nazis or One Nation supporters in your inner circle of friends? You trendies base your loopy arguments upon moral absolutes that you can not live up to yourself.

Irfan is an interesting character. He is obviously practiced at selling his Muslim product to people like yourself who think that he is sincere. But when Costello made the remark that Muslims who dream of Sharia Law in Australia should head back home, Irfan was up there defending Sharia Law.

It was obvious to most people that Costello was being diplomatic. Costello thought that the only Muslims who wanted Sharia Law were a ratbag fundamentalist minority. But “moderate” Muslims like Irfan do not see it that way at all. Get it through your overly thick cranial cavity that “moderate” Muslims want Sharia Law, and they do want to stone you to death.

If my statement is not correct, then I challenge Irfan to correct me. (Don't hold your breath.)

RedNeck,

We are getting somewhere.
Being a moderate Muslim does not mean you should stop believeing in Islam and its core values but rather follow its spiritual teachings.
You saw my last comment re Irfan's article many Muslims (not only in the western world) believe that parts of the Shariah laws like the death sentence for the apostate is something we can do without.

The world is not black & white.

Martin

If you have taken my opinion of extreme Christianity personally - that is a shame - I do not know what to say about that. I can't apologise because I hold no personal emnity towards you. I don't like religion - it has caused more blood shed and misery than good. You can argue about that if you like - but I won't be engaging you in that because it would just contribute to the "my religion is better than yours" diatribe and rants that continually block any cogent debate on these pages.

I have been told by Coach that I would rot in hell.
By Redneck that I am probably an adulterer and would be stoned to death by muslims.
By Boaz that I should be married and follow my husbands lead in everything.
By Numbat that I am a pagan for not being a Christian.
By Philo - an extremist feminist for wanting to be independent.
Accused by all of the above as being dumb just for holding a different point of view.

There is more and if I could be bothered I could provide links to all and more - surely if you follow these pages you would have read some of the diatribe against non-christians - or is your reading purely selective?

I am not the only contributor who is routinely abused - R0bert, Fellow Human and others receive personal attacks.

I do not make personal attacks Martin, I do view with complete abhorrance ANY religion which would tell me what to do, what to think and how to breed.

It is this FEAR factor used by ALL religions to control, denigrate and abuse others.

That you take it personally is your problem.

Oh, hello Fellow Human. I thought I was “persona non grata” to you? Did my pointed logic finally prod you into responding? I thought if I kept kicking you and your mates you would eventually crack. It is very gratifying when your Muslim enemies do exactly what you predict that they will do. It means that the Good Guys have the jump on your mob.

If “moderate” Muslims believe that the death sentence for apostasy is a little quaint, do you think that you might be able to get off your butts and tell your ”moderate” co religionists in Afghanistan to pull their heads in?

As a genuine Muslim, Fellow Human, could you tell me why Muslims can get thousands marching through Sydney protesting about a French headscarf ban, but are oddly silent when yet another bunch of Islamic fruitcakes want to stone somebody to death, kill an apostate, or blow up some 2000 year old statues?

If Muslims want westerners to stop being anti Muslim, you guys had better extricate your digit from whatever bodily orifice you have got it jammed up, and start bringing your Imams and hotheads into line. Why didn’t Sheik al Hilaly’s congregation walk out of his mosque when he called Jews “snakes”, Russians “dogs”, and Americans “pigs”? If you characters do nothing when your own leaders call other people racist names, you can hardly get self righteous when us rednecks do it to you. Your silance simply confirms our suspicions that you are not being honest, and that you are just pretending to be nice guys to lull the neuronally challenged Sneakypeters of this world into committing cultural hari kari.

As for the world not being black or white. “Fight the unbeliever who are near to you”, seems pretty black and white to me.

RedNeck,

Many Muslims on forums, bloggs, schools and universities interact on modernisation of Islamic teachings. The existence of wacky laws in Pakistan does not mean that we are not talking about it and dealing with it. Legislators in many Muslim countries look at the intent of the law then define the details.

You touched on many points but the key from my perspective are:

- Comments on the Quran: intellectual dishonesty from some posters seems to be the norm. the Quran clearly allows limited defence rights only if you are at war and is followed by a ‘shall not transgress’. If you don’t like it here is one word: Liviticus!
- Comment on Sheikh Tag: I attended few prayers last Ramadan in the mosque where he preaches. Although it was a handful of sessions, your accusation sounds very alien to a language that he can possibly use. Muslims in general call Christians and Jews as people of the book. Wahabbis call them Zimmi or Dhimmi which is more of a visa/ residency class than a religious. No practicing Muslim that I can think or know of will call other humans ‘dogs or pigs’. Can you provide evidence?
- Muslims marching: Australian Muslims where in many events including in the Bali terror attack victims ceremony. I have seen many Muslims in their tears but you seem to be selective. I would rather see Muslim communities doing more of what they are doing now which is open day in mosques and interact more with the society through charity and volunteer activities.
- “Muslims silence confirms our suspicion” :
o First Muslims are not silent but engage in many activities as per my point above.
o Your paranoia (ie suspicion) will always be there no matter what we do or do not do.