Martin

I was speaking generally about the Christian extremists. No, you have not personally damned me to hell - in fact Coach has. However, by the nature of your posts you clearly disapprove of me because of my beliefs. If you took this personally then I apologise but please understand that there are many extremist Christians here at OLO and sometimes it is easier to generalise. I will attempt to be more precise in future to spare you your sensitivities.

However, the behaviour of many Christian fundies on this forum is deplorable and you appear to tacitly agree with the extremist position. Very similar situation we have when people complain that moderate Muslims don't appear to condemn the extremist Muslims. Can you see a parallel here?

Also, I take issue with being preached to about a religion in which I have no belief. This is not respectful to my beliefs. Apparently if one is a self declared atheist or agnostic - the Christian extremists consider us as ripe for lectures. Such as a condescending lecture you delivered to me here:

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4145#36917

I maintain that I have not personally insulted you - I admit I included you with the other extremists because you do not treat my opinions with any respect and you do not speak out against your extremist brothers.

You condemn Muslims as violent - like Christians it is only a small percentage who are nutters. You paint all Muslims with the same brush - this is the Fear Factor.

Jews were painted with a fear factor brush in times past and this is happening to Muslims today.

I don't hold any hope that you will understand.

Crikey you're getting stuck into me for telling a story about the Christian understanding of God? You had just called God an ego maniac.

That is no God a Christian knows.

I've never said all Muslims are violent, of course thats absurd, you're doing it again. To repeat, we have more in common than not given we're both human. Humans though are religious creatures and if a person finds this dimension of life and their access to God is mediated through the Quran and Hadiths I argue this is what is leading to terrible violence committed with Allah's sanction.

Many Muslims have created a morally beautiful image of Mohammed and follow that, well this will lead to good behaviour. But this is not the Mohammed of Muslim holy scripture - just as the clerics tell their faithful.

Khomeini and Bin Laden are good Muslims. This is what we're up against. Statistically speaking 10-15% will be willing to follow the Quran to its logical conclusion. Others will pick and choose to follow certain parts for ill or for good. Many more will sympathise with the bad half and the good selective Muslims will sympathise with those who are more committed to re introducing the Caliphate. Look at history.

While we're at our weakest this is happening, Australia doesn't source much Muslim immigration thank heavens but those countries that do mmm big trouble.

I wouldn't trust reciprocation when giving the benefit of the doubt to our Muslim population. There needs to be more effort from them to protest against Muslim crimes, more effort to keep stupid clerics out etc. I don't think this will happen though.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/South_Asia/HC28Df01.html

Martin
You bet I am getting stuck into you – for your lack of respect.

The god described in your bible is a spiteful God– a god that manipulates, threatens and murders. A god that would turn a human being to a pillar of salt for looking back – what manner of creature is that? - a megalomaniac. I reject such a tiny creature.

I do not believe in a vengeful god – that is MY belief and you have demonstrated your lack of respect for myself and others by your lectures. Please desist.

Now, you have described Khomeini and Bin Laden as ‘good’ Muslims – what a nasty piece of manipulation that is. What an insult to ALL reasonable Muslims. You are implying that these psychopaths follow the Koran devoutly, therefore all who follow the Koran are as evil as they. You should be ashamed of yourself for such a cheap shot at all Muslims.

Once again you promulgate the Fear Factor against decent, civilised Muslims who reject extremists such as bin Laden.

This is the last time I will engage in any debate with you Martin – you have proven yourself to be manipulative and intolerant – I have no time for such childish behaviour.

PS
For consideration of a much larger, inclusive non-interventionist god I suggest you check out Radio National’s:

God, the Universe and Everything
Sunday 2 April 2006

Summary
What can our understanding of the cosmos tell us about God, creation and our place in it? Father Bill Stoeger, a Jesuit priest and an astrophysicist, believes that science can help shed light on God's priorities in creation.
(Sunday at 7.10am, repeated Wednesday at 7.10pm)

This is a fascinating program which describes a god that is far above and beyond the vengeful creature described in your bible.

Regards

Dianne

Well Tim Priest has again been proven correct with the wave of Middle Eastern crime we are now experiencing.We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg.

I think that the problem in Sydney is so enormous that the Iemma Govt cannot afford a full on attack on these criminals.Just an extra 2000 crims in gaol will cost the Iemma Govt in excess of $1.2 billion pa.It costs between 60 and 80 thousand dollars pa to keep one person in gaol.This will send our state broke,so the solution is just to pretend to be addressing the problem.

I think the judiciary have been given the nod to go soft on sentencing to avert possible economic disaster in the blow out of costs in our gaols system.

Morris has also a more immediate problem,if the police push too hard these criminal gangs are so numerous and well armed that they would overwhelm our police force and then the army would have to be called in the quell the uprising.This would be political suicide for Morris Iemma since his party would be admitting to the enormity of a problem of their own making.They are not going in hard on these criminals.They want the laws and regulations that tie police up in red tape and be in fear of been taken to the Anti-disrimination Board.

So when violence breaks out as in Cronulla,it is far easier and politically expedient to stop usaully law abiding "skips"from retaliating and thus keep an uneasy peace.

Just watch them orchestrate new spin every day to explain away the thuggery and lawlessness we have to put up with in this once beautiful and peaceful city.

Dianne

A common mistake is not taking the Bible as a whole, not knowing what kind of literature one is reading, failing to take account of the time, place and culture of the authors, and ideas about inspiration. I think you misrepresent God.

Its sad you think you are being abused when your beliefs are scrutinized but;

“Creeds must disagree: it is the whole fun of the thing. If I think the universe is triangular, and you think it square, there cannot be room for two universes. We may argue politely, we may argue humanely, we may argue with great mutual benefit; but, obviously we must argue. Modern toleration is really a tyranny because it is a silence. To say that I must not deny my opponent’s faith is to say I must not discuss it . . . It is absurd to have a discussion on Comparative Religions if you don’t compare them.” GK Chesterton

The point about Bin Laden and Khomeini was a subtle theological one. But I think you have unconsciously picked up on it. It is based on what is written in the Quran and Hadiths. The very same thing you are doing to the Christian Bible – giving an interpretation of the God described.

Do you see the hypocrisy again Scout? You are allowed to make judgments about the Christian God based on our holy scriptures but I am not allowed to do the same with Islam. I think this an eg of PC that is so fully absorbed in you that you praps can’t see how your beliefs arise from it. It is particularly intolerant of the Christian faith and traditions.

I have never called you names, but you have just finished calling me childish, manipulative, as well as described me as intolerant and disrespectful. Sad. I think you’re pretty good.

That program looks cool - cheers.

Our understanding of God has grown with time, we can see that in the Bible. Maybe that’s a revelation in itself?

Can't we argue politely and humanely for great mutual benefit?

Scout and Martin

Nothing is written in concrete. Nothing is black and/or white. There will always be shades of grey - no matter the issue.

The Christian Bible is a group of stories, handed down from generation to generation.

These stories are meant to be read in a lateral sense, not a literal one. But the inherent principles (general truths and/or laws) ought to be able to be applied in any setting. For example: there are some useful principles in the 10 Commandments.

We all have our own interpretations of what we read - as you are doing when you read this post.

Most of us ascribe a variety of meanings to different words - depending on the context.

I enjoy reading your posts but find it rather sad that you are at each other with every post.

Cheers to you both
Kay