Dear Wibble, your stats seemed to cover a later period, thats why I referred to the earlier one... still, no need to place tooo much emphasis on them, at most they will suggest some disproportionate levels of crime in some areas, but the real problem is to look for the root cause.

We often hear that it is

1/'unemployment, lack of services' etc... which leads to....

2/ Alienation, marginalization, sense of victimhood and anti social behavior and crime.

3/ Which of course is where the statistics pick up on the issue.

This past week and the first few months of the year seem to bear out my stats about South West Sydney and gun crime. But again..back to root causes.

My suggestion is as follows:

Cultural unsuitability/clash.

a) Prayer during day at least 3 times.
b) Dress code which may conflict with work practices.
c) Possibly wanting friday off or part of it.
d) Examples throughout the world showing how aggressive and hateful radical muslims can be towards host countries. (France, Germany,Spain, USA,Kenya)
e) The specific targetting of witnesses against Muslim crime figures.

Taken together, they would tend to make any employer think not twice but 3 times about employing someone with an Arabic/Muslim name.

That is the spot where the numbered points above begin.
Once the Muslim community reaches a significant size, all these problems are compounded. I maintain that immigration should specifically exclude Muslims, not because I 'hate' them, but because of the collateral damage brought about by large Muslim communities through their criminal/radical fringe elements.

Did anyone notice the HUGE HUGE HUGE numbers of hispanics on the streets of LA this week ? What are they there for ? to DEFEND HISPANIC INTERESTS regarding freedom to enter the USA for work or whatever. Let there be no mistaking the power of a crowd.

"Small" communities of culturally/racially/linguistically different people are managable and acceptable, LARGE ones are not.

I recommend readers research the Australian "HOME GUARD"... what started it, how big it became.. etc. perhaps "It's Time" for a resurrection ? (Pericles.. u there ? :)

To RObert.

There are 300,000 Muslims in Australian society who are a danger to you and I.

“Moderate” Muslims still believe in the core values of Islam. If they did not, they would not be “Muslims.” These core values include a conviction that Muslims who convert to other religions should be murdered. A conviction that all non Muslims, except Jews and Christains, must either convert to Islam or be murdered. A conviction that people who have had sex outside of marriage must be murdered in a slow, painful and gruesome way.

Why do you wish to live next to people who want to murder you? How is it that you do not consider people who hold these views as reprehensible?

Before you claim that “moderate” Muslims do not believe in these practices, take the example of the man in Afghanistan who is facing execution for converting to Christianity. He has been condemned by a “Moderate” Government. Now, if this incident is anathema to “moderate” Muslims, why are they not marching in the streets denouncing this violation of their “moderate” views by a “moderate” Islamic state? If thousands of Muslims can march in Sydney because of a headscarf ban in France, it is inexplicable that “moderate” Muslims, who you say are the majority, would not link arms to declare their opposition to an insult to “moderate” Islamic thinking.

But they won’t, because “moderate” Muslims look pretty fundamentalist to me.

So what we have are 300,000 fundamentalist Muslims who live in Western societies and who are intrinsically hostile to Western values. These people are also disproportionately involved in serious criminal behaviour and welfare dependency. They can only be accommodated by draining our treasury and building more and more jails. They can also only be accommodated by enacting legislation that repeals long held freedoms.

I find your endorsement for this sad state of affairs to be utterly amazing.

redneck the lack of serious expressions of public outrage by western muslims over the idea of condeming someone to death for changing religion is something that all moderate muslims should be deeply ashamed of. The timidy of the public protest (has there been any?) by muslims will certainly contribute to the cause of the anti-muslim brigade and in this case with good reason. No argument on that one.

My concerns about the anti-muslim brigade are predominately
- Double standards. It appears to be mostly driven by christians who refuse to apply the same standards to their own faith that they apply to Islam. This applies to interpretation of their scriptures, outrage at attempts to introduce religious law into the law of the land etc. They do the same to other belief systems - see Fida Mae's views on the character of people who don't believe in a god http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4238#36746

- A dislike for any system that judges individuals based on perceptions about the whole group. History has shown that not all muslims act to the worst standards of their faith so I refuse to accept that we should treat them all as though they will do so.

I have no particular liking for Islam or any other religious group and if we had a group of fundy muslims on the site behaving as our resident christains do I would be battling them as consistantly.

As it is we only have a few known active muslims contributers - Irfan who appears to have given up on engaging in meaningfull discussion and instead spends his time counting centuries and looking for Nazi's on the lounge chair, Fellow Human who remains a picture of sanity amongst the monothiestically inclined and recent contributions by dawood seem to come from a much healthier place than contributions by most of our resident christains.

R0bert

Robert,

For what its worth I for one am ashamed of a death penalty to someone who changed his religion and I believe all Muslims should be against it. Faith is a personal choice.

RedNeck,

The thing with your mob you never describe what a moderate Muslim is until later on I find out you meant an ex-Muslim.

Boaz,

So people praying is a cultural misfit?
What the heck is a 'Muslim crime figures'

Thank you R0bert for your perserverance.

I despair of reasoning with the absurdity of claims made by anti-Islamists on this thread.

Claims like "There are 300,000 Muslims in Australian society who are a danger to you and I" are as absurd as they are untrue.

These claims are deliberate attempts to stir up hatred - uneqivocally are religious vilification without any foundation in fact.

I concur that the non-islamic community would appreciate louder voices from the Muslim majority - perhaps they have been condemning the extremist Muslim fringe - with the media so tightly controlled by just a few, perhaps we are not getting to hear about it.

I also agree if the few Muslim posters behaved the way many Christian posters do on this website, I would be appalled. My distrust of any formal religion has been confirmed.

In summary, the vitriol expressed here just goes to show how anti-Jew propaganda worked for the Nazis during the 1930's. I guess this is where Irfan gets his 'armchair nazis' - not helpful, but I do understand. Irfan is a talented writer - a shame he isn't using his skill as effectively as he could.

However, if a loud and persistent few can hold 300,000 people to blame for every act of terrorism, just here in Australia - then we do have much to fear.

Fact is I have never been confronted in my home to convert to Islam - but I have been accosted by Christians in the privacy of my home - frequently.

On this website I have been abused, verbally threatened, aspersions cast on my morality and emotionally blackmailed simply because I maintain a moderate point of view.

I can only hope that the extremists on this website are indeed a minority of Australians. I believe that they are primarily due to the polls conducted by Graham Young where reason far outweighs hysteria.

Where are the moderate Australians on this website? They are as quiet as the moderate Muslims.

Scout Irfan has a fresh article up speaking quite clearly in support of freedom of religion and opposing the death penalty for change in religion. He also provides information from other sources regarding moderate muslim opposition to such horrors. Something I was not aware of when I wrote my earlier post. I was very glad to see the article - Irfan still writes really well I just wish his role in these forums was as constructive.

redneck - read Irfan's article, do you see anything there which supports your claims that all those 300,000 muslims want to kill us slowly for our crimes?

I would rather the public voices of the muslim community were a bit louder on this issue but that could be the nature of media reporting. I don't want to see aussie muslims burning cars in protest (which they did not do over the cartoons either) so the reality may be that we won't see their opposition making prime time news.

Do Irfan and Fellow Human need to be any more clear about their opposition to the death penalty for leaving Islam?

R0bert