redneck, I'm willing to up the number from a few hundred to a justifiable number - the few hundred was largely a response to the equally silly suggestions that most muslims are causing problems which seems to occur over and over. How many of the "middle eastern" persons in NSW jails are muslim and what proportion of the relevant populations do they represent? What are the equivalent rates in other parts of Australia? There are no obvious signs of muslim criminal gangs in South East Queensland that I've heard of.

I'd like to see significant changes to the welfare system (another thread I guess) which moved it away from being an alternative to paid work to being a system of last resort which helps the genuinely needy but lets the lazy go hungry. Is the welfare issue you refer to primarily a NSW thing or is it nationwide? Again the Mossies I see and hear about in SE Queensland tend to be pretty ordinary people with jobs etc.

R0bert

BOAZ_David-you say my stats "…'begin' at a period where gun crime in South Western Sydney had SKYrocketed over the previous 5 yrs or so, relative to the rest of Sydney” and “’No Change’ suggests that the extremely disproportionately HIGH levels observed from 1998 to 2001 are STILL THE SAME…"

Can I clarify, I picked 1998-2001 on YOUR suggestion-"1998-2001 while all other types of crime including gun crime were decreasing across Sydney, SWS rates skyrocketed."

From the same site, though, the stats from any period in the last 10 years are no more convincing. However, every time a stat appears that does not show crime patterns consistent with a sudden increase in violence associated with an increase in Australia's Islamic population, you can easily ask for stats from one more year, or one less month etc, until you get something you like (or if you never do, you can keep questioning the null hypothesis).

Arjay says "A lot of crime,even assaults go unreported because police don't have the numbers,get bogged down in red tape and don't address many complaints."

It is true that crime stats will always be underestimated, though you would have to present an argument about how this under-estimation is unevenly distributed for that to matter regarding the argument at hand. You could add that the stats did not consider other factors that correlate with crime such as age group and population density. And certainly stats do not necessarily tell the whole story. It is possible that every single crime committed in the last 5 years has been done by an Islamic migrant, and at the same time, no other person has committed a crime (that would account for no trend change as well). But this would be extremely unlikely (statistically in the realms of trillions to one, I would imagine).

It is also true these stats do not show ethnic trends. As far as I'm aware, Redneck is correct that the ABS Country of Birth statistics are the only crime statistics that consider ethnicity (if that is what is measured by country of birth...).
(continued)

(from previous)
These particular stats show that the countries of birth most represented in our prisons have five times the rates of incarceration compared to the countries with the least representation. This is indeed a concerning statistic, and warrants (and is given) some attention from criminologists.

Of course, where you stand in the political divide can influence your interpretation of this stat; on the Right, this can show a genetic/cultural propensity to crime, and on the Left, institutional factors that discriminate against a group (unemployment, police behavior etc).
http://www.omi.wa.gov.au/publications/seminar/Ethnic%20Minorities%20and%20Crime%20in%20Australia.pdf

However, the difference between the over and under represented countries is between 2.7 convicted criminals, and 0.5 convicted criminals, per THOUSAND of the population.

The low rate of criminality in our population can also account for no change in crime trends over the last 5 years, even if the Islamic population has 10 times as many criminals as the rest of the Australian population (a wildly speculative rate that I think would very likely be much lower, but for the sake of argument…). It would take seriously high rates of crime from the 300,000 Muslims in Australia to impact overall crime rates, though one might expect to find regional differences if the “notorious ethnic ghettoes” that redneck refers to exist.

It seems to me that even arguing that 10% or so of our Islamic population exhibit serious criminal behavior (which could be detected in overall crime rates if the population growth has been large enough), it is still not clear that 270,000 Muslims should be suffering for the sins of 30,000.

Those who are quick to condemn Australia’s Islamic population have not yet given any sort of rational argument behind their arguments, but insist that I (and others) keep trying to prove the null hypothesis that there is no major ethnic related criminal threat to Australia (and when I show why this major Islamic criminal threat is statistically unlikely, insist that either I don’t use statistics or that I find them more suitable statistics for their argument).

(I’ll address appeals to anecdotal evidence in my next post…)

To Robert

Just what the proportion of Muslims in jails in Australia to other religions, I would just love to know. I know that the Turkish/Iraqi suburb of Auburn in Sydney has the highest number of long term welfare recipients, because I read that in the politically exquisite SMH, ironically just under a feature article slamming Pauline Hanson. What the proportion of Muslim welfare recipients are to the rest of the population is something that I would just love to know also. Same for welfare fraud, insurance fraud, motor traffic accidents and motor car traffic infringements. (I nearly got killed on Friday by some Mahmood, who overtook a car over double yellow lines while talking on his mobile phone) The way these characters drive in Sydney has got to be seen to be believed. Once, when sitting in stationary traffic on Parramatta Road, I watched incredulous, as one ayrab behind me mounted the footpath and then drove down the footpath at top speed before turning left through a petrol station entrance, and exiting down a side road. I am still shaking my head at that one. That is probably a normal driving tactic in Damascus or Baghdad.

The reason why Australians do not know these things, is because ethnic lobby groups have succeeded in preventing government agencies like the ABS from compiling, keeping, or analysing anything related to ethnic crime. Seems that they are a bit embarrassed, eh?

I would like to see changes in our welfare system too. Any immigrant or so called “refugee” who can not find gainful employment after 12 months gets a one way ticket home. We could probably save 10 billion desperately needed dollars that way, before you could say “parasite.”

Muslims in France are 8% of the population and they make up 55% of the jail inmates. These figures are a portent of things to come unless we discriminate against this religious group for immigration into this country. More Muslims means more jails, means less money for schools, hospitals and scientific research. It is your choice.

redneck, I think wibble is saying it a lot better than I am.

I have mixed feeling about the collection of some of the stats we are discussing. On one hand if there is a problem that relates to a particular group I'd rather know about it as well as having the evidence to counter claims like 300,000 criminal muslims in Australia. On the other hand there are dangers with selective use of statistics and assumptions that trends tell the whole story.

Nothing I've seen has given me any reason to think that we have a significant problem in Australia with the bulk of the muslim population - rather with a small proportion largely from a specific ethnic/social background and where the problem may cross the religion boundary with plenty of reason to believe that christains are also involved.

R0bert

Benjamin,

I didn't ignore your comment I just have a 'no forums policy' on the weekends: family time.

Answering your first question:
Muslims view the prophet as a good example.
Your version of the prophet Mohammed pbuh is a result of organised character assasination to promote your faith. At many points in time in history your folks needed an enemy to survive.

Many stories you quoted are at best intellectual dishonesty (not by yourself but per the original writers stories).
I don'tr resend you for it I just know you are mislead.

Your second question:
Totally agree that many of the first generation migrant Muslims suffer Anglo Phobia and that should not be the case. Not sure why and your guess will be as good as mine.
However, this phobia seems to disappear in second generation Australian, American, European Muslims.

Peace,