"She had a life of beauty and suffering, truly extraordinary. If we want eternal life these should be our role models."

CC, if you think that suffering is great, thats your problem,
personally I am not into masochism :)

The reason the Catholic Church is attacked, is that they are the
only worldwide institution, fighting politically to ban abortion
and often make people suffer. If you want to suffer fine, don't
force your warped philosophies on the rest of us!

If you want fewer abortions, so follow the Dutch model. Better
sex education, free contraception etc. The figures show that it
works.

Personally, reducing suffering in the world is far more important
to me then notions of holy zygotes or embryos.

The problem with the Catholic Church is not what they believe,
but what they try to foist on others, often through political
means. Whilst they try to do that, they deservedly should be open
to attack, for flawed philosophies IMHO

Hi again Yabby, Compassionate Catholic’s right suggesting there are some whose ordinary-or-difficult-lives seem extraordinary by their attitude-and-selflessness. Rather than complain or indulge in self-pity, they look out for the other's needs, even while enduring significant pain-or-difficulty themselves.

Suffering isn't great Yabby, but nor is life possible without any suffering...the old adage, 'suffering-makes-us-better-or-bitter', sums up the difference a good-or-bad-attitude makes in how we cope with life...faith can help guide that attitude so that we don't simply inflict our self-pity on those around us. :)

It would’ve been nice if you’d managed one post without venting your spleen on the Catholic Church again...as I mentioned, the Catholic Church is NOT the 'only worldwide institution, fighting politically to ban abortion'...you’ve yet to back claims the Church ‘makes people suffer'.

I would suggest that you’ve again foisted 'your warped philosophies on the rest of us!' by arguing that the suffering of innocents, crushed-and-torn-piece-by-piece-from-their-mother's-womb-or-drowned-in-a-bucket should be condoned by the Catholic Church or any rational human being. Indeed...you are the one who accepts that OTHER humans should suffer and DIE, simply for your convenience...

'If you want fewer abortions' the BEST 'sex education'...is abstinence and then an exclusive relationship with your life partner...'The figures show that it works. '

If 'reducing suffering in the world' is important to you Yabby, then you wouldn’t be suggesting that women suffer the effects and after-effects of abortion - physical and psychological - nor would you accept the brutal suffering and death of their children.

'The problem with the Catholic Church is not what they believe'...'they deservedly should be open to attack, for flawed philosophies IMHO'

How’s that for convoluted reasoning...firstly you see no problem with the Church's beliefs… then suggest the Church should be 'open to attack' because you've changed your mind, accusing the Church of 'flawed philosophies'...

IMHO, try more-of-the-HONEST-and-less-of-the-OPINION…

Yabby, the abortion issue and the innocents involved, is a red herring to your own lifestyle issues with the teachings of the Catholic Church…it won’t justify your position, nor will it invalidate the Church's teachings and doctrines. I pray that you resolve those issues and find peace... :)

Meg, once again your philosophies are flawed, but then I did not
expect anything else :)

Trees are innocents, tomatoes are innocents, lambs and calves are
innocents. You chop up some of those innocents and eat them!

Life might not be possible without suffering, but a great deal
of suffering can be avoided, so it makes perfect sense to
minimize it and not claim it as a virtue.

Embryos and zygotes do not suffer Meg, they do not think or
feel either, as they are not children.

The Catholic Church certainly is reponsible for much suffering.
Forcing women in the third world to have children that they cannot
feed or provide for, means whole families suffer from malnutrition.

The figures show that preaching abstinence to teenagers as a solution to lowering the abortion rate, is a dismal failure.
Note the difference in abortion rates between the US bible belt,
where that method is used, and say Holland, where practical sex
education and contraception is used. The difference is astounding.

My reasoning makes perfect sense. In a tolerant world, there are all
sorts of people who believe in all sorts of gurus, spiritual leaders,
you name it, its preached by somebody. Your guru, ie the pope,
is entitled to his opinions. Its when his opinions are foisted on
the rest of us, often through devious political means, that I protest
loudly!

CC is clearly convinced that children are a gift from god. Funny
that that god does not seem to care about having created so many
deformed ones, sick ones, starving ones.

Perhaps a better guide to life would be to put down that Catechism
and have a read of Darwin's "Origin of Species", to understand the
world. As he notes, far more potential beings of any species will
be created, then can ever survive. Thats the basis of evolution
and natural selection. Its a far better guide to the world then anything that any pope has ever published.

Dear Meg1,

I did some research on Dr Bernard Nathanson. It was very interesting. Here is a guy who presided over 75,000 abortions and has now converted to Catholicism. What a turn around! Clearly he has the credentials to critically analyse the situation and his findings are profound. If I can paraphrase he states that life begins at conception and life has its origin in the divine. He also states that he manipulated the media to convince the American public that abortion was a necessary. One of these tactics was to viciously attack the hierarchy of the Catholic Church. The supporting evidence was fabricated i.e. abortion was introduced on a series of lies.

Yabby, according to Dr Bernard Nathanson, your beliefs on abortion are based on media manipulation, not the truth. You sound like a seeker of truth to me. Why limit yourself. The Church has 2000 years of history containing divinely inspired philosophical truths.

I implore you to open your mind to this. I started to explore this seriously 2-3 years ago and there is a peace and reassurance that I have experienced.

If you are going to criticize the Church, at least try to understand its position on these matters.

All the best.

Innocent – having-or-showing-the-simplicity-of-an-unworldly-person, a-young-child, a-person-without-cunning-or-deceit…NOT a fruit or vegetable, Yabby. :) (Dictionary-Definition)

Rather than claim SUFFERING as the virtue, it’s your ATTITUDE to suffering and your method of dealing with life or suffering in general that can be virtuous or otherwise, Yabby… : )

If baby is big enough to be ripped apart, Yabby, it feels every tear and jab…most convenience abortions performed in this country are well past the age-stage of development where feeling is a given.

Contrary to your obsessive accusations, the Catholic Church feeds-and-clothes numerous third world families…it’s your corporate-mates and corrupt-governments who ensure they remain poor-and-malutritioned…no-one in the Catholic Church FORCES women to become pregnant. Third-world women have many pregnancies so a small number may survive…i.e., high mortality rate due to the malnutrition you mentioned…abortion is less prevalent than affluent countries.

You’re confusing live births from country-to-country with success-or-failure of a policy of abstinence? Holland has a high Catholic population…perhaps they're practicing abstinence…there's no shortage of contraception available in the so-called ‘bible belt’…

Statistics…damned-lies-and-statistics…you can distort them to make black into white by only providing selective data…look at the whole picture Yabby.

Your world, by virtue of your bigoted attitude to Catholics, is far from tolerant…but devious, political and loud…you said it! : )

…free will means some CHOOSE to put at risk some of God’s gifts, therefore they suffer accordingly…there is food enough for all…justly distributed. Human-greed-and-selfishness-is-the-obstacle.

If you believe in Darwin’s ‘theories’, deformities and frailties should not be so confusing to you…when you match genes…sometimes the results will produce irregularities to the ‘norm’…sometimes genius or strength, sometimes a disability.

By your own definition…bonobos and chimps should get 'eaten'…that's the rule of evolution…the strong survive. There's-obviously-no-reason-to-‘protect’-the-vulnerable(chimps-and-bonobos-included)-on-this-planet-if-guided-by-‘natural-selection’…

…shot yourself in the foot again, Yabby.

Perhaps you should get out more and open the window to knowledge – Darwin is not a ‘guide to the world’…it's one man’s narrow view from the basement of life...try to climb mountains and see the view from the peak...that's God's word.

Compassionate Catholic, you've had the courage to seek truth...that is it's own reward...peace, reassurance, hope...unending love...God!

Dear CC, one Nathanson swallow does not make a summer lol. Abortion
has been around for far longer then the media ever existed!
People are not silly. They naturally enjoy sex, as they evolved
to do, but they are also aware that there are limits to how
many kids they can feed, clothe and educate. The notion that
couples should abstain from sex if they don't want any more
kids is pure Catholic codswollop and very bad philosophy.
They even ban the snip! Methinks its their way of trying
to create more little Catholics, in order to beat their
archenemy, the Muslims, in the demographics stakes.

CC, you clearly need religion to cope with life, ok thats fine,
I think there is a genetic component there, for good evolutionary
reasons. Some people need perceived certainty to achieve brain
homeostatis and thus feel better. That does not make it
all true.

Rest assured that I know a great deal about the 2000 years of
the Catholic Church, the more I learn, the more I become a critic.
I don't believe the divinely inspired stuff, I see the reality
of corruption, selling of indulgences, having heretics burnt at
the stake, manipulation of the gullible masses etc, all to the
benefit of church power. Read up on the sex lives of past popes,
they sure knew how to party :)

Ahh Meg, so you stick to chopping up innocent calves and lambs
then... same point lol.

Yup, its about attitude to suffering Meg. The best attitude is
to see that its avoided as much as possible, by both people
and other species. Unlike Opus Dei members, I have no intentions
of whipping myself and wearing spikey chains, then calling that
virtuous :)

A foetus does not feel or think Meg, it doesent have a functioning
brain. Abortion up to 12 weeks, which is the most common, does not
cause suffering. No functioning brain = no person, just clumps
of developing cells.

Few people in Holland are practising Catholics, Meg. Good
sex education and contraception is what its about.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922117.html