Snout, not SCout...yes, since certain people have consistent spelling errors in their posts...I considered that the comments attributed were just a few more...

As Robin Williams is regularly quite outspoken on issues outside of his acting expertise and lately on his own personal struggles…the comments were applied accordingly…

In fact, Robyn Williams of science and broadcasting notoriety has enjoyed the odd foray into the acting sphere himself…

He does not own the rights to scientific ‘expertise’ however and your adulation (humanist bent acknowledged) is unsurprising … numerous other scientific minds here and overseas are happy to acknowledge their Catholic or Christian beliefs which they do not see as contrary to scientific debate or fact. : )

For anyone who considers they have a reasonable knowledge of the facts on the abortion and anti-life debate, in particular, to have no knowledge of Dr Bernard Nathanson...the architect of the anti-life propaganda debate in the USA and one of the first US abortion industry practitioners...indicates their narrow-minded determination to simply justify their own position and actions, irrespective of all contrary facts on the issue. Since the anti-life lobby still blindly follows the same propaganda and methods…see previous anti-life posts…one would think they’d like to know a little about the architect of their methods.

Dr Nathanson realized the error of his position and became an ardent pro-life campaigner…once he could no longer ignore the scientific facts on life in the womb.

It is interesting that you chose and recognized the Bible as the ‘book’ that will offer peace. Congratulations…

However, your suggestion that I may believe ‘there is only one book worth reading’ is the sort of arrogant assumption that comes from refusing to read anything yourself that may provide you with some enlightenment on the life issues or any other that may not suit your own mindset…with Scout and Yabby you remain in like company.

Why don’t you think outside the square, open the window to your own mind and recognize that others have valid beliefs and arguments that are contrary to your own.

tbc...

(Cont...)

I have grown used to anti-lifers like Yabby and others, ‘disparaging’ any who attempt to live their lives selflessly and in the interest of those around them…like Mother Teresa and Pope John Paul 11.

‘…the sad truth came out :( I've been sparring
with Meg now for quite some time :)’

Let’s examine ‘the sad truth’ that ‘came out’ Yabby…that you are incapable of acknowledging even ONE CATHOLIC who has made any contribution to ANYTHING of worth…including Mother Teresa and that you consider that the more bile you produce, the more people will believe what you say just because you have said it…so how pitifully SAD are you? Pity you didn’t manage any truth either…we’ll leave the ‘coming out’ at that…

Contrary to your claims, Yabby…the only one you belittled and condemned by your grossly vitriolic attacks has been yourself…I guess you’ve nothing to sing about after all…

With all the prayers from pro-life Catholics…you just may reach that peaceful realization one day, who knows? : )

What you do is definitely NOT ‘sparring’ …more like warring…after all, the barriers to any real knowledge or truth entering your mind are set up like a minefield, designed to explode with meaningless, irrelevant and predictable propaganda at any time.

Again, check for yourself…every one of your posts on this subject (on any thread) has attacked the Catholic Church and Catholics generally or specifically, pro-lifers also…clearly a bitter, sad and confused individual attempting to justify actions and life-choices of his own…

Sad too that you feel threatened by a ‘housewife’ who can think for herself and back her arguments with facts...or more specifically, a woman who does so...you really are quite transparent Yabby...

Curious why you see the present politically driven, Islamic attacks on innocents and their treatment of women as not deserving of your bile, perhaps the response from that sector wouldn’t be with prayers though…

Well Yabby,

You have still not answered all my questions. This is because you can't. It is interesting that you have drifted into the "power of the mind" argument which you can’t prove just as you can't prove evolution.

Many scientists believe in the divine but you are too narrow minded and childish to even consider it. You will be the loser out of all of this. Man’s greatest sin is pride, and mate, you have buckets of it.

Do you think the Catholic Bishop I was referring to would have checked for schizophrenia? I pretty sure they do. Also I don't think the healer I was referring to is after the money. It’s a poor second after the graces he has received.

Just for completeness sake I have included the details of one of the many healings I referred to. (Yes Yabby it must be the power of the mind… I think you’re drifting into “la la” land or is this just when your own poor arguments fail you?).

1. Diseases:
Rheumatoid arthritis, hypo-thyroid, hypoglemia, osteopenia. Birth defect in leg which bent leg back. Could not stand. Used a wheelchair. Could not feed herself Could not write.

2. After healing 28/9/02:
Knees and back straight. No pain- Can now walk, stand and kneel. No hypoglycemia and no immune system problems.

3. Doctor's Testimonies

Dr # 1: 'She is no longer on thyroid medication and has no evidence of thyroid disease. She no longer has any symptoms of carpal tunnel syndrome and has no pain with walking.'

Dr # 2: 'Her once crippling condition has miraculously improved and seems non existent. The patient is no longer confined to her wheelchair and her braces she wore for support and relief. In my fifteen years of practice I have never seen such change in any patient condition- I could not even try to explain the healing that has occurred in any medical terms.'

CC,

Thanks for providing those details of a “miraculous” healing, but I doubt what you have given would satisfy the most basic scrutiny of peer review in a scientific setting.

Pain is highly subjective, and its behavioural manifestations are very individual and at least in part due to the degree to which the patient is invested in the sick role. If this person became pain free, and gave up using her wheelchair following her experience with this “healer” this is indeed a positive outcome, but this is not unusual, or objective proof of supernatural intervention.

Her list of conditions is rather vague, and it would be difficult to demonstrate objective reversal of pathology without knowing a bit more about each of them, and doing scientifically valid measures before and after. Rheumatoid arthritis typically follows a fluctuating course: a period of subjective improvement can’t be taken as evidence of “cure”. “Hypoglycaemia”, while a well recognized complication of diabetes treatment and of some other metabolic conditions, is also a perennial favorite of the alternative medicine set – often in the absence of any objective evidence about actual blood sugar – and seems to respond, like many conditions, to attention to a healthy diet and a more generally positive life outlook.

I have no trouble accepting that this person may have found a more healthy and functional way of living through her religious faith, and I hope she has been able to sustain this improvement in her health long term. But this is not the best measure of changes in objective pathology. These days medical fact is based on careful objective observation with peer review and testimonial claims are treated with suspicion for sound reasons. See http://skepdic.com/testimon.html .

Meg1,

I take your point about the “one book”: it was a cheap shot, but reflects my frustration at the tendency of followers of revealed religion to reference everything to a single collection of texts. I do indeed acknowledge that others may have valid beliefs, and I enjoy exploring the beliefs of others, but I will also defend my own.

May your God bless you.

CC, ask your doctor what the placebo effect is. He should explain
it to you. Nope your bishop would not know much about schizophrenia.
His church still has a dept for exorcising demons after all.
Now what other questions do you have?

Wow Meg, all that egg on your face about Robyn :) At least you
now know who he is. Perhaps you should tune in to the Science Show
sometime, you might learn lots and lots, certainly more then in
church.

Meg, I am amused that you should think that I feel threatened by
you, for in fact you amuse me :) But let me be frank, I am a skeptic.
I spent years on some of the skeptics lists and quite honestly,
people like you and CC would be chewed up and spat out intellectually, with your entrails tragging behind you, on those
sorts of lists :)

Years ago now, I spent years arguing with Al Queda supporters etc.
I read things like Milestones, by Sayyid Qutb, to understand the
radical sign of Islam and yes I was threatened many times, but stuff
like that does not concern me. OLO is a very tame version of some
of the international talkboards, but I like the fact that it deals
with Aussie issues. On OLO there are so many xtian taliban who attack
the muslims, there is no need for me to say anything.

OTOH few Aussies are actually aware of all the things that the
Vatican gets up to. The impression is that they are just a bunch
of harmless little old men and women, which is far from reality.

If analysed critically (as us skeptics do) then its clear that much
misery and suffering in the third world is due to the Catholic Church. Even true believers are shocked by that, many go into denial,
but many also open their eyes and think again. I'm delighted to see
that others are reading some of those urls and now quoting from
them

…And-may-He-bless-you-too-Snout.

…so you’ll understand ‘my frustration at the tendency of followers of’ humanism-darwinism-globalism-skepticism-etc… ’to reference everything to a single collection of texts’…

‘Rheumatoid arthritis typically follows a fluctuating course’

…however, effects can be measured progressively through pathology, visually, x-ray, etc…cure-would-be-measurable-at-each-point,if-progression-had-been-significant-enough…ditto-to-other-‘immune-system’-diseases.

Hypoglycaemia (and-the-presence-or-absence-of-diabetes) is measured-through-effective-pathology-testing-which-both-medical-gentlemen-would’ve-used-before-putting-their-medical-credentials-on-the-line…

‘Pain is highly subjective…manifestations are very individual…degree…the patient is invested in the sick role….person became pain free…gave up using her wheelchair…this is not unusual, or objective proof of supernatural intervention.’

Snout, I’d consider abandoning-of-a-wheelchair-and-becoming-pain-free-from-the-list-of-ailments,quite-unusual…but perhaps you’ve visited Lourdes …

Compassionate Catholic didn’t suggest any one fact was ‘the proof’…nor did she claim any medical knowledge, simply-stating-the-opinions-of-two-medical-professionals-who-have.

RE: list of ailments…you may or may not know that osteopaenia is painless in itself, but its effects are measurable and it’s not possible to ‘cure’ it overnight medically…any improvement’s a very gradual affair…also measurable. Medicating patients requires doctors to have measured the before and after of this condition also.

I feel sure neither of the two doctors mentioned would’ve risked their patient’s life by removing thyroid medication unless they were sure that the patient was cured and had done the necessary tests…pre-cure tests are a given as she wouldn’t have been on medication otherwise…

…not sure how you’d explain the ‘miraculous cure’ of a birth defect that straightened the woman’s leg…and allowed her to walk…faked too, huh?

…carpal tunnel syndrome doesn’t disappear without treatment either…at a guess I’d think that few would ‘fake’ illiteracy or inability to perform basic duties like feeding.

For someone who professes to look for the facts Snout, you are selling yourself short with that reply and your comments on this case.

I’m not aware of this case history, yet can point out the obvious easily…how much more so with the medical history?

If you were submitting the comments on a medical diagnosis as a medical student and I was evaluating…I may have suggested that you refrain from voicing your ignorance…you’d have to provide better argument to gain a passing grade.

‘I doubt what you’ve given would satisfy the most basic scrutiny of peer review in a scientific setting.’

tbc...