Again there is that reluctance to mention Western colonialism and imperialism, as the impetus still causing the problem with non-white immigration into the West today.

Though terms like "the sins of the fathers" are regarded just as historical 'pap' or even literary 'trite' these days the historical facts are still there.

European colonialism and economic imperialism has still so much to be ashamed of. Please turn your history books to
both the political records of Harold Wilson of Britain and Charles de Gaulle of France. Both Wilson and de Gaulle offered the former colonial subjects who wanted to become British or French subjects could do so without the need to pass immigration laws. Maybe the laws are still not valid, but also Pakistanis were also allowed to become British subjects at the time.

Also we must be reminded that at the time they were not required to adopt European-style culturism but only had to obey the political laws as they formerly did under colonialism.

No doubt the same is happening now, except that among them are those who deeply resent colonialism and economic imperialism, which again is happening now in Iraq with talk about freedom and democracy, when many are sure that it will only still be the old India-style Dyarky Democracy, these days not even needing hundreds of thousands of colonial troops, but us Western imperialists can run the show totally from home, and of course we've also got our bosom pals the Israelis standing by their nukes.

The West, despite Islamic terrorism, has still got most of the Muslim world by the short hairs, the old colonial tea and coffee corporate economy which robbed India and Sri-Lanka so much, has now become the oil economy making the Middle East so precious for our modern Western corporates, who sadly for so many Islamics, lovers of bin Laden or not, will surely lose to Western nuclear power and corporate interests. Where true justice comes into all this in the future, will take more than a mite of commonsensical brainwashing.

BRUSHY.... I need to take you to task about "Western Imperialism and Colonialism" being the impetus.

As Micki said.. "we are talking about now"

Brushy, you would be well advised to look more closely at Islam and its history.

What about "Muslim Colonialism" ? which came first ? Western or Islamic ? Ottomans or British Empire ?

This is not a chicken and egg thing,

Islamic colonialism of:

Syria
Israel
Egypt
Persia
Asia Minor (Turkey)
India
Bengal
Balkans
Austria
Hungary
Nigeria
Sudan
Iraq
Checoslovakia
China
Caucasus
Lybia
Tunisia
Moor-occo
Spain
Parts of France

alllll took place wayyyy before the various Western colonial enterprises.

But.. "its our fault" ? come on mate.

You have read enough history to know that to suggest so is 'one sided' to give it its very best spin.

Please cease blaming your own, and start blaming those who are driven by an ideology which SPECIFICALLY commands them to 'defend' in a military way, their (ill-gotten) 'Territory'.

I'm loathe to 'rip into' you as ur my elder, and I respect you as that, but boy I'm tempted :)

Your right about the UK and France etc offering citizenship to various groups. IT WAS A MISTAKE. as this link will show:

http://www.muslimparliament.org.uk/ Please read the 'about/history' bit:
No one offers citizenship for THAT to occur.

From the site:

<<The Muslim Parliament during its early days under the leadership of Dr Kalim Siddiqui, whose brain-child the Parliament was, opted for a high-profile, confrontational approach in its championing of Islamic causes.>>

<<to empower Muslims ....to create a “non-territorial Islamic state” in Britain.>>

Did we all note that last phrase?

David you are right about Rainer,his speciality these days is the sideline one liner snipes of racism and his perception of the moronic masses.He refuses to cross swords with me or others for fear of discovering the truth about our commmon humanity.

Basically I see it this way,we have a scientifically and techologically advanced society that also has a progressively advanced Christian philosophy,why do we welcome a retograde philosophy that relegates half of our intelligence [ie. women]to slave status and non contributers to our economy.Is it any wonder that Muslim countries live in both social and economic poverty.To add insult to injury we have these leftist morons telling us that Anglo Saxions are the most evil and racist people ever to have drawn breath.

As colonial conquerers Anglo Saxions have been the the most benevolant masters of the past 500 years.

John Stone is right,let the Muslims evolve and make their mistakes in their own lands and leave us to their perceived damnation.I'm quite happy being an infidel.

Boaz,

Our learning group happens to know history and philosophy very thoroughly, Boaz, and believe you will find that both us and the Islamics, have a lot to answer for. Even as Charles Darwin said against those humans who believed that Darwin's survival of the fittest concept was
proof that only the strongest of our human species deserved to inherit the earth. Backed also by Hegelianism this also spurred on 19th century colonialism, as well as American big business, and in the end, of course, modern fascism and Hitler's Nazism.

Nothing new in history, you will say, were such concepts, but in disgust in his old age of those who would misread his findings like his former friend, Herbert Spencer, Darwin did write that humans unlike animals had the gift of a growing intellect to learn to know better, even intimating that by now us humans should be feeling better and doing better towards each other.

Indeed, one does not have to be a Christian to understand the philosophy of the "Sermon on the Mount" to do for others as you would do for yourself. Even Karl Marx is supposed to have said, if you profess to be a Christian please act like one. Or was it Charles Kingsley, himself a Christian Marxist?

Sounds like you haven't got much time for bleeding hearts, Boaz, similar to Donald Rumsfeld who would like them all pushed aside while the US got on with the tactics of shock and awe. Reminds one of a quote of the Roman writer Tacitus - "For us Romans, real peace only means the peace after a successful battle, when all is quiet after all the enemy has been put to the sword."

It is really about time we all grew up intellectually, Boaz, and this includes not only us, but leaders from both sides!

[Deleted for redundancy as post to which it refers has been adjusted.]

BOAZ_David:

[Deleted for redundancy as material to which it refers has been adjusted]
You have also written, "Redneck responded to Almanacs 'garbled' posting, with a careful and systematic analysis".

How on earth could anyone who says, "Niggers and Muslims are both generally despised" be capable of a careful and systematic analysis of anything at all?

----

I have seen rampant Islamophobia and racism on US blogs. Sad to see them here in abundance too. John Stone wrote, "I argued that the London bombings differed from all earlier, similar outrages ... the London bombings had been directed against their fellow citizens by British Muslims." They were, John. And previous horrific bombings in the UK were also carried out by UK citizens -- Catholic ones. Christians. [And by the way, John, the riots in France were about bad housing, discrimination and unemployment in ghettoes created by the French Government. Nothing to do with religion, but everything to do with young people not getting jobs because of the colour of their skin + their addresses. And you would presumably refer to any attempts to fix these social problems as "appeasement".]

What drives Islamophobia is ignorance. Only a tiny minority of Muslims are extremists, just as a tiny minority of Catholics are in Opus Dei, or indeed the IRA. I suggest we all learn a little more about our Muslim neighbours and their faith before we leap to stupid conclusions about hordes at our gates. If Muslims break the law, arrest them as you do any other citizen.

And dump the paranoia. There's plenty of blood and guts in the Old Testament, but it's not used to demonize whole swathes of the world's population -- despite DU, napalm, white phosphorus, and cluster bombs.