Xena
working with Muslims to end the terror... is what I'm doing. Bringing Ash and Irfan face to face with the incontrovertable essense of their own faith in this area.

Oh.. dont forget to give the contextual information about your 'cheap shot' post about Old Testament events referred to in your other post please. Grabbing the nearest verse you could find which contained the term "kill them" was rather abysmal in debate methodology.

Ash claimed I have a double standard and cannot accept the same contextual approach in my use of the Quran, well, 'watch and learn' because its all there, and will appear in a post later today or tomorrow. (in fact I gave it in 'point form' previously but this seems to have been neglected or ignored, so I'll go into more specific detail next time.

Xena, I understand your desire to foster good relations between different faiths, and I support this, but doesn't it raise a few tiny questions in your mind that the only faith which is engaged in violence against others ( "as" a faith, not as a foreign policy of a country) is Islam. ? This should have the red flags waving faster than the latest batch of free smileys.

Perhaps its my rather passionate approach which is putting you off looking at facts. Ok, sorry if it has, but put that aside, and ask "Where does the truth (if any) sit in all that Boaz is saying". Its all verifiable, and subject to clear thinking scrutiny.

I welcome your references to Biblical events, truly, but they are a different discussion, these threads are about Islam and its relationship to violent attacks on Western targets.

So, continue to enjoy your weekend, and be thankful no one will look sideways with condemnation at you for not wearing a Hijab or for having the temerity to think your word/testimony is as good as a mans and that your hubby is not authorized to 'beat you lightly' by his Holy book (except during Ramadan of course, no wife smacking during that month....:)

Ifran,
Be assured we believe in your integrity to speak out honestly against acts of violence done against innocent people in the name of Allah. We admire your courage and concern - we do not hate you.

However the constant alluding to the concept that Christians "hate us" is an attempt to silence difference by those posting exposing material on this forum. Expressing difference is not hate it can be love, a parent who corrects a child can be accused by the child of hate, but the parent it is motivated by love. The constant call of, "You hate me" is an emotional reaction and an attempt to remove the argument from the basis of the philosophy that influences young men to detonate bombs in the name of Allah among innocent travellers.

It is evident that even normal moderate Muslim youth will seek this achievement in the hope of the advancement of jihad. They obviously believe these unknown travellers deserve to die with them, in some agenda to terrorise or judge the dead, the maimed and their families in the name of Allah; otherwise they would not cry to Allah as they die. We must recognise moderate Muslim cells harbour persons willing to commit acts of criminal violence, even when not trained in Afganistan by Osama Bin Laden.

We must identify what is motivating these youth, not pretend it is a phycotic disturbance. It is brainwashing and indoctrination, so who is doing this?

"..be thankful no one will look sideways with condemnation at you for not wearing a Hijab or for having the temerity to think your word/testimony is as good as a mans and that your hubby is not authorized to 'beat you lightly' by his Holy book (except during Ramadan of course, no wife smacking during that month....:)"

BD - DO NOT continue to insult my intelligence with your sancitmonious prattle. "hubby" indeed - you presume too much.

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father."
Jesus tells Mary Magdalene not to touch him because he hasn't yet ascended -- as if the touch of a woman would defile him and somehow prevent him from ascending into heaven.One wonders why he insisted that Thomas touch him later that evening and why he permitted his apostles to touch him and hold him by the feet before his ascension.

The natural use of the woman"
Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. (11:5-6)
"If the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn."
If a woman refuses to cover her head in church, then her head must be shaved.

11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. (11:7-9)

MEN ARE MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD; WOMEN IN THE IMAGE OF MEN. WOMEN WERE CREATED FROM AND FOR MEN.

And so on..............

This has got more bollocks in it than a spanish bullring with Ernest Hemingway. Let's not fine tune it so much that we have every Muslim, Christian having to run around and be responsble, ad nauseum that we lose sight of it. We are in a world where, again, with politics and religion relentlessly muddying the waters, the thing turns on its head and gets people swept up in it. It's great when it comes to debate, but horrible when it comes to the point where you have to (suicide) bomb to make your point. To pontificate endlessly on what causes it (every model and its sum is what we've come to.) is rather pointless. Whilst the history of how we've come to this is interesting and important (contexturally). How on earth can we get out of it? To the next step where there is some give? The last few days posts have all been about the Koran vs Christian etc. Which what keeps the books going. I find it interesting that humanity can't move forward without a script.

Spot on Di - totally fed up with the extreme christians though. Will bite my tongue in future and try to keep to the thread.

Perhaps this christians vs muslims is what the terrorists want to achieve, if so they have succeeded. To our shame.

agree with this article completely. Therefore delighted that this is exactly what one prominent umbrella group has done:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm