It is more than time that muslims condemn the acts of terrorism that are constantly being done in the name of Islam. Silence is seen as acceptance or approval. I cite the case of the Sydney muslim, I will not grace him with a name, who dared to say that women who "dressed provocativly" were guilty of their own rape. It is time that these idiot men realised that they have to control themselves and not blame everyone else for their crimes.
I note that as of the time of this posting, only the Muslim Council of Victoria has condemned the terrorism in London. Does this mean that the Muslims in NSW approve of these acts?
If so, the muslims of NSW deserve all the terrorist acts which may occur against them

And they are speaking up against terror and condemning it.
http://www.muslimnews.co.uk/

About time to stop the bastards who not only lost their faith but their humanity as well.

Ash

You posted at 11am Ian, give them a chance.

The image of world leaders standing behind Blair was a powerful one. Hopefully one day soon we will see another one, containing a group of Islamic leaders that are involved in global issues, empowered by their own people and empowered by the West. Only then will the current threat abate.

When good men are silent, evil flourishes.

Peace on earth to men of good will and for men who will good.

Authoritarian regimes and belief systems possess the seeds of their own destruction because you can't fool all the people all the time. Fear was not enough to contain the Berlin Wall. The collective power of good men and women is mightier than these pathetic fanatics. World War 2 showed that.

We had the Assassins during the Crusades. They struck fear into people's hearts but where are they now....in London. They will end up the same. The lion has let hyenas into his den. These are fleas on the back of an elephant. I don't really think they know what they want politically. Perhaps the thought of heaven and 1000 virgins...

Irfan, great article.

The issues that lie behind terrorism are complex. These actions seem to have no chance of changing the things that lead to the anger and hatred.

Muslim leaders speaking out against terror in clear terms as you have done will not redress the perceived (eg I don't have enough knowledge to confirm or deny) wrongs of the west which has contributed to the anger felt by extremists but it will help to break the cycle of anger within western countries.

Keep up the good work.
R0bert

"May the reader consider carefully the nature of Islam. Though it speaks of peace, tolerance and equality, the Qur'an's self proclaimed right of abrogation reduces these claims to empty words. The overall picture of the Qur'an is one of violence to non-Muslims. The comments of Islamic leaders motivate followers to war against non-Muslims. Muhammad, the Apostle of Allah, was himself a violent man, killing those who opposed his religion. Though not all Muslims may conduct themselves in like manner, without doubt, Islam teaches its followers to be violent."

The issue of peace in Islam has troubled me ever since Muslim terrorists started using the Koran to justify their acts, and also since the ICV went to such extensive lengths to prevent Islam from being studied. I typed "violence" and "Koran" into a search engine and found this site: http://www.lookinguntojesus.net/20030126.htm The 1st paragraph of this post is a summary of the site. Irfan Yusuf, I appreciate your apologetics work for Western Muslims, but how do you explain the claims made in that website about the violent nature of the Koran?

YngNLuvnlt, your post is probably better suited to the to the article http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3599.

The call Irfan is making is for Muslim leaders to speak out against the acts of terror. This is neither the time or place to muddy that call with christain claims about Islam. It is the time for those of us who do not want the violence to support moderate muslims who are standing up to be counted.

There is plenty of space elsewhere for the debate about the merrits and failings of Islam.

R0bert

Don't blame it on the muslim community until the investigations are over. If a muslim terrorist network is truly responsible for the London blasts, then the 'war' on terror led by the americans has been a total failure - as usual Bush can't get anything straight - he is just a glorified demented moron.
The solution to any problem lies in negotiations - not declaring war on a nation & killing its citizens in the name of attaining 'democracy'.
The pen is still mightier than the sword or the guns of the forsaken 'coalition of the willing'.

Irfan - thank you for your article. I think you should have addressed your title to ALL practising Muslims across the world - rather then targeting London Muslims.

If moderate good living Muslims throughout the world do not speak out against this latest Muslim terrorist attack they are in my view, just as cowardly as the perpetrators of the London Mass Murder.

Ifran,
Great appeal to moderate Muslims. I give my total support for your considered article.

As for awara,
She need to understand that these terrorist are not motivated to have their own "democracy". These people believe they have the authority of Allah to destroy all infidels. These people abhor democracy and believe in a totalitarian State where Shari'ah law is enforced as in Afganistan under Al Qa'eda. That was the reason all the moderates were leaving Afganistan for western countries as refugees.

Quote Friday July 08, "If a muslim terrorist network is truly responsible for the London blasts, then the 'war' on terror led by the americans has been a total failure - as usual Bush can't get anything straight - he is just a glorified demented moron." I suggest you head off to the Al Qa'eda cells of Afganistan - they will welcome you with outstretched alms. (past spell check ok)

NOTE! The war on terror began after September 11 - so please get some perspective on the causes.

Great article and balanced. I do agree before we all get too heated over the days to come, George Dubya is a truly demented moron, elevated far beyond his level of competence. Which worries me in these times, but that's another forum I'm sure. I think that most people, be black, white, brindle, catholic, islam, hindu, et al, are quite reasonable and don't want to rule the world. The fundamentalists of any religion are the ones that do. I'd rather save the world than rule it. That's the paradox. I don't think you can do both. But the fundamentalists of any ilk think they can do both. What an oxymoron. How is it that any good book has been so misinterpreted over its message? I do local radio in my community and we did a special on what was going on in London. Again, in times like these, the only true anthem we could play to nutshell it was John Lennon's "Imagine". Total utopia, because our attitudes and our history will never allow us to get there. Call me altruistic, you may say I'm a dreamer...

You wanted some response from a London Muslim ? Here you go...

Like many in this city I’m an adopted Londoner. I’ve been here in this city for ten years now and it truly has the best that the world has to offer. I treasure the freedom and open-mindedness this city gives me. It is this diversity of people, living together, side by side, shoulder to shoulder that makes this city truly great, waves and waves of immigration that create new and ambitious communities and cultures that feed the soul of this metropolis.

But here’s the rub. Even if you are someone (like myself) who felt that they were lied and manipulated into supporting a war against non-existent weapons of mass destruction; even if you (like myself) went on the anti-war demonstrations protesting against this abuse of power; you can still abhor and despise these violent and ruthless terrorists who today chose to end the lives of ordinary people, people like yourself and myself. You can still be a Muslim (like myself) and want them to be hunted down and punished in strange and brutal ways. Because they don’t stand for Islam. They never have and never will. Here’s the core of this conflict; it’s not between Muslims and Christians. It’s against fundamentalists and moderates. And unless moderate Muslims (like myself) stand up and condemn what these people do, in the ‘supposed’ name of my religion, nothing is going to change.

As someone once said, ‘Islamic extremism is to Islam as the Ku Klux Klan is to Christianity’. A virulent mutation. An unwelcome and unholy prostitution.

This is London. We have been here for tens of thousands of years. It’s going to take more than this to bring us down You are going to have to get through people like me, for generations and generations, before you even come close to succeeding. And we will prevail. We will overcome. Trust me

Di ... dreamer ? :) YES.... and one living in Fantasyland dear....
John lennons song "imagine" is one of the most shallow, dishonest(or plain ignorant), crude and time wasting efforts of musicla lyrics I've ever come across, not to mention 'unworkable and not a true portrayal of either human nature of history'.

Ifan, I applaud 'your' call, and support you. I only have that little niggling voice deep inside which says "Irfan is a great guy, says all the right things, wouldn't hurt a fly" but unfortunately "Irfan is not the agenda driver in Islam". I won't revisit that issue :) Still, to the extent you can raise awareness of the need to be peaceful, it's helpful.
I do find it a tiny bit out of character with the founder and foundations of Islam, as I've outlined in other places, but enuf of that for now.

"good on ya moit"

Now, back to Di.- If the values of "imagine" were followed, there would be total chaos. "Imagine all the people, living for today" yeah RIGHT... "Hedonism, pleasure,riches, me me meeeeeeeeeeeeeee...." living for today. There is no tomorrow, so why worry about it, fill your life and mind with sensuality, with existentially mind blowing experiences of ultimate intensity.. etc. That is the LOGICAL outcome (though not the 'practical-in-the-context-of-culture' one.) Reference to that song is like a red rag to an angry bull with me.

Its like throwing the 'one' of the latest fad toys into a group of preschoolers and singing "Imagine how they will share"..... duh.

kalweb, did you as a moderate, protest when Australia became embroilled in Iraq looking for the mythical weapons of mass destruction?
Clearly, the bombings in London were an act of extreme barbarism.

Just like there are great Westerners, there are great Muslims also. Conversely, there are terrible Muslims and Westerners

I like Yusuf's message. Hopefully many people will get it.

With Di, I reckon that Lennon's message is particularly appropriate right now. However, despite the millions of people all over the world who treasure the song 'Imagine' and the vision it expresses, there are obviously plenty who will never get it.

They are the fundamentalists, who enact hatred in the name of whatever ideology has them in its sway. Poor them - and poor us because their hatred for each other tends to conscript the rest of us collaterally.

John Lennon sang and wrote about love and peace. Fundamentalists talk hypocritically about peace, and love to fight with other fundamentalists.

Imagine...

Well said Ifan.Many in our society don't realise that your words are those of a very courageous man.Ifan is one of the few who has the courage to speak out.If more would do likewise ,then the terroriests will be starved of oxygen.

Don't read so much into that one line BD, there's only so many words you can fit into a few minutes. Forget the pain & conflict of the past and don't waste today by fixating on future affairs. Perhaps you will relate to this better:

"Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things. But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you. Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof."

Regarding the London Islamic community anger against the recent London bombings, it is not surprising that they would be unhappy over it. Even taking the side of the pro-American and Israeli argument against the majority of Middle-East Arabs is also not surprising. No doubt these Islamic communities had decided to move to the West, hoping their descendents would become in time as Western as many other Islamic migrants, some even still retaining their Islamic faith. And certainly the resultant multiculturalism has been both enlightening and beneficial to the country of adoption.

Viewing the whole global Islamic community of one and a quarter million, however, the mind boggles to think of the majority of the Moslem world ever adopting the Western way of life, especially the adoption of Western-style democracy, as America is almost desperately now attempting to press on them without much success.

Having decided to adopt Western citizenry as tens of thousands Islamics already have, there is the problem of the newer arrivals not appearing patriotic to their new country of adoption. The point we must arrive at here, is that Western leaders with any common decency should not be using these people to back up their arguments against Islamic terrorism, or what many political scientists term, Islamic-backed -Arabic payback or blowback against Western injustices, which can easily be proven by an intense study of British and American neo-colonialism in the Middle-East alone since WW2. It is a pity the more seamy sides of British and American economic adventurism in the ME is not taught in our primary schools as it is taught in our universities.

George C - WA - Bushbred

I can even sympathize with Muslims when people question their sincerity, and even their loyalty. It must be difficult. However, let me explain why I am very skeptical about Muslims 'condemnations of terror'.

I do not know what is in the hearts and minds of any Muslim. I do know what Muslim's do whereever they are a majority - and it ain't pretty. The fact is that wherever Islam dominates, other religions as well as women and other groups are discriminated against and persecuted.
Based upon this simple fact, I have every right to doubt the honesty and sincerity of Muslims. We cannot put our families and civilization in jeopardy just because something hurts your feelings. Tough! Based upon Islamic countries and websites, there is no doubt that if Muslims ever control a Western country, out goes personal freedom, and in comes sharia law, persecution, hate, anger, killings, and all the other things that bring such joy to the hearts of so many Muslims.

So, I couldn't care less what Muslims say or how many times they condemn terror. The only valid clue to what Muslims really believe is how they treat people where they are a majority. In case you haven't noticed, they don't even treat other Muslims very well. So quit blaming it on everybody else and take a good, hard look at your religion, your sacred writings and even the life of your prophet.

When Islamic coutries permit Christian and Buddhist missionaries to walk the streets of Libya and Iran, when non-Muslims have exactly the same rights as Muslims do in all Islamic countries, when women can drive and vote in Arabia, when little girls are not pushed back into buring building because their knees may show, when Copts are not killed and kidnapped by Muslims in Eqypt, when people can openly criticize the life of Mohammud, when men who commit honor slayings are condemned to 30 years, etc... (and so on, you get the idea) THEN we can assume that Muslims are really against terror.

Does anybody have a problem with this?

Sometimes a ray of light appears that gives hope and exposes darkness; it is not the exclusive domain of any person, religion or ideology. This light is the true light that shines from the moral designer of the human mind. Ifran has managed to glimpse that light and reflect it to others. This light is not contained in blame but in forgiveness: it is not contained in a truce but in unconditional reconciliation. It is not contained in controlling others, but serving each other.

Now consider Him that both began and finished in the struggle of life, who endured false accusations laid against him, ignoring the igminious shame of a Roman death on a cross; he submitted to his blood being shed, because He saw a future for those that received the light. Consider Him! His death was the catalyst to bring new life and hope to an angry world.

kactuz presents a very bleak view, another frghtening conspiratorial view is presented by:
http://wagnews.blogspot.com/2005/07/rise-of-g8-new-world-order.html.

I like the cartoon of Bush shown, however, it is like any other conspiratorial theory, it bears a degree of logic but has no evidence to back it up.

I think though that generally ordinary people wish to live in peaceful co-existance; disharmony is created through those seeking power, economic advantage, or seeking to change religious convictions.

(RObert, just to clarify, the "Christian claims" I refered to were actually just research into the Qu'ran, conducted by Christians, which is why I used that particular site in my last post. I have since put the post up on Waleed Aly's article. The reason I posted it here was, if someone condemns Muslim terrorist attacks, but support the Qu'ran because they are a Muslim, then I would appreciate the apparent paradox to be reconciled.)

Is anyone else here really scared about what's going on?
It's not just the fanatics trying to blow us all up but the response from powerful men like Bush saying things like 'they want to spread their ideology but we will spread ours' eh - does he mean democracy or Christianity?
For the first time in my life I am actually deeply worried about tomorrow, justified or more irrational hysteria?

What needs to be explained are the immoral deeds of Prophet Muhammad. While there are some 'soft' teachings in the Koran, there are also many troubling ones. Prophet Muhammad massacred an entire Jewish tribe, stole their goods, sold the women and children. He ordered the stoning of a young single mother, as well as sanctioned torture ie chopping limbs and finger tips. He and his gang murdered, raped, pillaged and ransacked until he had complete power. The problem with the story of Muhammad, is that he started out quite benevolent. When he had amassed enough wealth and army, he degenerated into a ruthless warmongerer. He eventually died cursing the Jews and Christians. What chance does Islam have while the main character behaves like this? Most muslims are unaware of what he did. His wives also included a 9 year old and the wife of his adopted son and a jewish woman whom he 'married' after having her father and husband killed. Anyone who reads the Koran, the Hadithes and the life story of Muhammad will eventually get the picture of a psychopathic terrorist. We need to stand up and call a spade a spade and stop this smokesceen of political correctness and fear of critism and debate!

Aisha, well said. That is the 'ugly' side of the Islamic coin, but just as much a part of it as the other side. Head or tails, its the same coin. Ash will always emphasise the 'soft' sayings, but the truth is, what you said is all true.
There were a few adjectives in your post which are more suited to a 'propoganda' web site :) "psychopath" etc, actually you don't need those, the facts alone speak with enough volume.

Irfan was sharing about his 'Jewish Aunty' and while it is a touching story of real people, it is not where the rubber meets the road in the issue of competing faiths. As long as we Christians remain faithful to Christs clear and unmistakable "I am 'the' way...." etc, and Muslims claim MOhammed is the 'last and final' prophet, we will ultimately never have harmony of belief. If that was all there was to it, its not a problem, but the 'ugly' side of Islam is used as the launching pad and justification for the events in london and the 'carving' off of heads of kidnapped and helpless 'infidels' which is based directly on a Quranic verse.

I add my voice to calling all people, not just muslims, to come to Christ in humble repentance.

Ifran, you should be calling not just on the London Muslims, or world Islam to condemn those acts, I think a call to those close to the action/perpetrators would be more desirable. It is unthinkable that planning for such an action has escaped the notice of some less violent muslims, but fear might be holding them back.

Muslims who condemn violence against the 'west' today might just be rejoicing at the establishment of an "Islamic republic" by the efforts of hyper fundamentalists tomorrow, we will hopefully never find out, and in the mean time give moderate muslims the benefit of the doubt.

YngNLuvnIt, I had a futile hope that in respect for the dead and injured of London that we might be able to keep this thread free of Islam bashing. Clearly subsequent posts show that there are plenty of others not interested in that approach.

It is a time when we all should be welcoming and encouraging any Muslim taking a stand against the terror regardless of our own views on their faith.

Doing so does not provide an endorsement of Muslim theology or teaching, rather it expresses a desire to stand together against those who would bring terror to our lives.

Thanks for taking the post to the other thread.

R0bert

I will not bother responding to the many hate-filled rants being placed in these forums. I will let the Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, do the talking ...

http://www.london.gov.uk/mayor/mayor_statement_070705.jsp

"I want to say one thing specifically to the world today. This was not a terrorist attack against the mighty and the powerful. It was not aimed at Presidents or Prime Ministers. It was aimed at ordinary, working-class Londoners, black and white, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Jew, young and old. It was an indiscriminate attempt to slaughter, irrespective of any considerations for age, for class, for religion, or whatever.

That isn't an ideology, it isn't even a perverted faith - it is just an indiscriminate attempt at mass murder and we know what the objective is. They seek to divide Londoners. They seek to turn Londoners against each other. I said yesterday to the International Olympic Committee, that the city of London is the greatest in the world, because everybody lives side by side in harmony. Londoners will not be divided by this cowardly attack. They will stand together in solidarity alongside those who have been injured and those who have been bereaved and that is why I'm proud to be the mayor of that city."

I have no problem at all with your post kactuz, in fact an excellent post.

I had a friend who wanted to marry a person from a country with Muslim laws.

Her rights as a citizen of that country would have been lees than the illegal immigrants that arrive on our shores from this country.

She changed her mind after realising what it meant.

Let the Islamic people lead by example, and I am sure the world will be happy to welcome them into to the greater freedom available to others

Irfan - I did not send a "hate filled rant" to you or any poster in this forum. I have made one post to you - and I stand by it.

Kat - I found your response extremely interesting. It has given me another view.

Italian people fought against the Mafia in New York. They won. Muslim moderists should verbally fight against Islamic terrorists. I doubt that they will.

I am thinking of Londoners as I write this.

We need a united stand against terrorism since it will only take a small nuclear device to produce catastrophic consequences and this could initiate ww3.George Bush is a loose cannon.We need some one who can think before he acts.

Firstly,every nation with the means should contribute troops to Iraq in order to secure its stability.This will give more credibility to the intention of the US to withdraw and accelerate Iraq's progress to democracy and autonomy.

Secondly,get Israel out of the occupied territories of Palistine.

Thirdly,find alternative fuel resources to oil since it is both politically and environmentally a disaster.

Lastly,get all religions to remove the violence from their texts that premotes the over throw of other cultures/religions because of their so called superior god.How insane.We all believe in one god,but my particular concept of god is superior and we are dealing in the realm of imaginery beings!

Will it take the detonation of a nuclear device before we wake up?

Boaz, as I said in my last post... before we all get too hot under the collar. I'm going to call you the F word. Yes a fundamentalist! Which is why you will never see the wood for the trees, let alone how offensive your call for one and all to come to Christ is on this post. No wonder you think JL's Imagine is crap. YOu're probably still dancing around your living room to Sister Janet Mead's 70's disco/folk revolting version of "our father". Demanding for garden variety Muslims to "prove" they condemn the stuff going on is like continually persecuting Jews about crucifying the wrong man. Religion always gets it wrong when it's in the hands of zealots as history has proven. It's not restricted to the Muslims, Christians and catholics have more blood on their hands than the shroud of Turin. When religion gets to the nadir it has (continually) it is not about the god, it's about the (mostly) men who are driving it. Which is where religion and politics always separate. And.. if Jesus had an iPod, i am sure that Imagine would have been on his hit parade. And anything by Leonard Cohen. OVer to you Garra!

I do not understand why posters are baiting each other. I do not understand why posters are so egocentric in their postings. All I want to see is fair and reasonable comment - and concern for Londoners.

Anyone who thinks that dropping 500kg bombs on markets and homes in Iraqi cities from the safety of a Bomber 5 miles up is morally any better than blowing up trains and buses at peakhour, deludes themselves.

I find it hard to believe that the 1000 Iraqi's (men, women and children) who have died every month for the last year and a half should pass with little more than a shrug while the deaths of less than 100 people in London should trigger outrage, and the launch of a Discovery Team from Australia, to see what can be learnt. All with much sincerity. It made me ill!

The trouble with the recent London attacks is that know we have to put up with the nauseating multiculturalist sentimentality. The London mayor Ian Livingstone (or whatever his name is) started waffling on about how it was an attack on "black, white, jew, sikh and christians" alike.

The worst thing about London is the multiculuralism, hardly something to be celebrated. The racial tensions in London is as thick as the pollution that covers the city itself. But multiculturalism has become structural and its critics are promptly jailed. Funnily enough, the terrorist attacks is a direct result of the multiculturalism that is so often naively celebrated.

How about this one from the gospel of St Leonard, Di?

"Now I've heard there was a secret chord
That David played, and it pleased the Lord
But you don't really care for music, do you?
It goes like this
The fourth, the fifth
The minor fall, the major lift
The baffled king composing Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah
Hallelujah"

davo,

thank you for insulting the people of london by attacking their mayor. it is sentiments like yours that give the terrorists good reason to cheer.

Go for it, Philo. You are so right about the true light needed in times of strife, and also in times of successful conquest as George W Bush believed after his nine weeks so-called successful conquest of Iraq. It had gone to his head as Napoleon’s first European conquests had gone to his head. Initially, Napoleon had been on the quest for liberty, equality and fraternity, but after such easy victories, Napoleon had decided to call himself emperor. It was when the German philosopher Immanuel Kant lost faith not only in Napoleon but in one man alone as leader of the world, declaring for the need of a libertinian federation of nations, really the forerunner of our present United Nations.

It is believed no one will win this dirty war that is going on, Philo, whether the world’s strongest ever unipolar nation, or the world’s most cunning and cleverest ever of underground fighters, as you intimated about looking for the light. It is the light of reason, Philo, of wisdom and understanding, so lacking in our world today amongst all our leaders big or small. Yes, keep on going for it, Philo, as a battling old sportsman, I believe that your light is also the light of fair play.

George C - WA (Bushbred)

Fundamentalists v moderates

I wish it was so simple. But, to try to simply the situation, I offer 'rulership of land and its benefits'.

Look at all the wars us humans have fought through out our existance, its usually the same repetitive pattern, one group ruling their land and successful at it, wants the other peoples land for the benefit they seek, oil, resources, cheap labour etc.

Problem, yes, which is such wars usually cause mass death of men, yes some sitting in the seat of power think it is not such a big sacrifice, but they need the support of the population for the war as it will be their children dying.

SO, one way is to create a reasonable reason and the attack, rest is history as they say... the people being attacked will defend their land with their blood and ... somebody wins and ... the dead are soon forgotten, when they should be alive and we may meet tomorrow as the doctor, neighbour, or father, for the benefits that is being reaped.

Every rightful war that is being fought on earth today can be stopped by giving secure rights to the people who live on it. This will leave the unjust wars, and who wants their children to die in them, so it should by natural progression end.

So why do we have these wars continuing... perhaps we as people have allowed undesirables to rule us, these undesirable who should be removed from society before they do more harm, keep the posts of power from corruption, and we have to take responsibility for that.

So, its more about bad v good.

Sam

Actually, I suspect that 'moderate Muslims' would have about as much influence on their lunatic fringe as did the 'moderate Christians' with whom I marched against this unwinnable war back in 2003. Nothing was going to stop the 'Coalition of the Willing' posse from waging war back then, just as nothing that the West can throw at them will ever stop terrorists. Rather, it just encourages them - while simultaneously eroding the very values that we Westerners like to contrast against those of the rest of the world.

This attack on London has been inevitable, since Tony Bland leapt into bed with Sheriff Bush, with Toady Howard bringing up their rears. Unfortunately, I believe that we have very likely invited the same kind of action in Australia through our leaders' conspicuously sycophantic adoption of the deputy sheriff's role in this doomed international adventure.

When it happens, we should remember that we brought it on ourselves - just like the Londoners who support Blair's international aggression.

Muslims in London, as well as all over the world, will have to speak out against these terrible attacks but the sad thing is, they shouldn't actually have to. Most London Muslims have nothing in common with these terrorists, except that they were born into the same religion and (probably most) believe in the same God. It is only because we (and that includes everyone, non-Muslims and Muslims) are too narrow-minded and continuously fall into the perils of stereotyping and racist thinking (as this forum well demonstrates), that Muslims are forced to defend their faith. My Muslim neighbour should not have to come to me and apologise for the atrocious acts conducted by someone they have never met and do not affiliate themselves with, just as I shouldn't have to apologise for the invasion of Iraq because like Bush I was born into a Christian family.
Judging from some of the posts here, I am really concerned about what will happen in Australia if there should ever be an attack here. We have to stop blaming Muslims for what other Muslims do and intensify our efforts to overcome racist sentiments.

"When it happens, we should remember that we brought it on ourselves - just like the Londoners who support Blair's international aggression"

Garra, you know the responses this statement is going to provoke. Brought is not the best word, greatly magnified the risk by increasing the motivation and number of terrorists, is the better way to put it I think. Responsibility can be shared without displacing the blame of those who commit the atrocities.

"Where is the[Mahatma] Gandhi of Islam?" Great point Charles Moore!

Dear Irfan, criticism of the Koran and prophet Muhammad is not 'hate' - this is the politically correct smokescreen. Christianity has been criticised for 500 years and it has done the world a LOT of good. Noone calls that 'hate'. The PCers like to muddle the issue by making it seem as though Islam is a race, and cry 'racsim'. Islam is an ideology not a race! Criticism is healthy and what Islam needs! I am an ex muslim myself and I do not hate muslims, just the ideology that Prophet Muhammad gave to us that has hurt our people for hundreds of years. Every day nuclear weapons are getting cheaper and more easily available, technology is getting more efficient. It is only a matter of time before those who would like to follow in Muhammad's footsteps will get hold of them and use them. There will be noone left; muslim or non muslim. There is little time; we need to get this ideology out in the open and start debate and dialogue! There is a good website here if anyone is interested; www.faithfreedom.org where you can get ideas of how to help in this 'ideological war'. I, and many other apostates and those who want open debate, have written to newspapers, only to be turned down every time. The media have put a gag on criticism of Islam. Why? What is it ok to criticise CHristianity? Do they want muslims to remain in this bloody quagmire? Don't be afraid to call a spade a spade!

Dear BD / Aisha,

I think it is more confusion from your sides than ‘hate’.
For us, it is really simple: Islam have a spiritual side and a ‘legal/ worldly side’ if you like. I notice this misunderstanding always from good Christians because there is no wordly/ legislative part to Jesus (Peace upon him) message.

A non-muslim reads the Koran and gets confused about the mix of ‘good tolerant teachings’ then all of a sudden the harsh punishment for steeling for example. How can Mohamed be so tolerant/ loving is some scenarios and yet applied the harsh judgement of the Jewish tribe as you said. The answer is simple, there are spiritual laws and there are worldly legislation for war treason. If you want to compare, you can either compare spiritual to spiritual or legislative to legislative.
Islam and Judaism are the only religions I know of that comes with legislative/ worldly system. Islamic sharia is a’fiery law’ for us same as for the jews, its intent to be preventive and not corrective and hence is the harshness of the sentence. In Islamic history, caliph Omar suspended the Islamic Shariah during drought because he believed likely for hungry people to steel a loaf of bread. So it is also for leaders to apply their brain.

Having said all that, let me take you to a recent example WW2: Hitler, who started from a devout Christian (speeches 1922) turned ugly in the following years. Now, Churchill and the rest of the western Christian world at the time couldn’t have applied Jesus’ (PUH) spiritual message at the time. In fact, all the approvers of the Atomic bomb attack and the Dresden destruction of civilians were all good Christians.

Peace my friends,

AK

Beautiful article Irfan.

I wish people the world over could realise 'War is Terror' and condemn the 'War on Terror'.

THE LONDON BOMBINGS WERE AN INSIDE JOB!

Either the CIA, MI5 or mossad committed these atrocities.

The purpose? To deflect attention away from the Downing Street memo story which was incriminating Bush, Blair and Howard for their lies which have led to the deaths of tens of thousands of people in an illegal war. Also to keep Britain mired in that debacle of a war in Iraq.Don't be so naive as to think that they wouldn't bomb their own people, the stakes are very high for these people. You can't trust the mainstream media for the truth, look how well they investigated the WMD issue. Bloggers were denouncing that lie long before we invaded iraq and discovered their complete absense from the country.

"By way of deception, thou shalt do war" Mossad motto.

Fellow_Human - Hitler was a socialist, but even if he was a practising Christian, he cannot say; 'Christ lead me to kill infidels' like a muslim can. While Muhammad murdered and maimed people, Christ healed and forgave them. The two main characters of the two main religions are like chalk and cheese. So, when a christian kills in the name of Jesus he does it in spite of Jesus, and when a muslim kills, he can easily back it up with Muhammad's example and his teachings. The problem is not violence, per se, but because Islam is a religion where violence is sanctified - and this is the problem. I urge you to really read what the prophet did and said, FH, and if you really are human, you will apostise too. It's hard at first, but believe me you will be so free when you do. Try that website I mentioned before www.faithfreedom.org

The assumption made in many posts is that only Westerners/Chritians/Europeans were killed or injured in the barbaric bombings in London. Could it possibly be the case that some Muslims have also been killed or injured through these terrible indiscriminant attacks on ordinary people.

I think we all agree that what has happened in London, and keeps happening again and again has more to do with a bunch of ideological zealots rather than the majority of their religion. It happens with all religions. Whether you agree with the basic principles of anyone's religion or not, when it comes into the hands of people with power or zealots, that's when the trouble starts. It's no good scapegoating the hundreds of people that rightfully, and for the most part, go about practicing their day to day religion. The way some of our "leaders" have handled the situation has been a tad short sighted. I agree with the poster that said that what happened in London is no more important than all the Iraqis killed in the "War on Terror". But we put human life in a pecking order don't we? None of us are likely to want to go backpacking and temping in Iraq. But let's not go burning witches and neighbours at the stake.

Garra,

Give me back the Berlin Wall, Give me Stalin and St Paul
Give me Christ or give me Hiroshima
Destroy another foetus now,
we don't like children anyhow,
I've seen the future baby,
It is murder.
Things are gonna slide........

Quite dark the Man, but spot on. Move over nuns with guitars!

Extract from The Humanist Party UK press release -

Today, before anything else, we denounce the mindless acts of terrorism
that took place yesterday in London. 24 hours after experiencing the
elation of being given the wonderful possibility of bringing the world
to London in 2012 for the Olympics, London was plunged into the horror
of violence and death on their way to work. This violence did not
affect white, British, Christian, capitalists who represent a system or
a government (if this was ever the target): this violence affected,
Christian, Jew, Hindu, Sikh, Muslim, Buddhist, atheist, black, white,
male, female, young and old, alike without discrimination because this
is the population of London.

We strongly denounce this violence and reject any justification of it.
The responsible ones are the ones who committed this atrocity and the
people who inspired and trained these people to commit these acts: these
terrorists, who appear to claim some link to al-Qaeda.
An end to violence is possible

We, Humanists, know that there is a cure for violence and this cure
comes with the understanding of what violence really is. Violence takes
many forms, not just terrorism. Lack of social justice is the greatest
form of violence that people in the world are experiencing at this time.
Billions of people around the world are in the ideal condition to
become terrorists because they live in conditions that generate feelings
of hopelessness and non-meaning. For many of these people it is neither
here nor there if they live or die. Their families are hungry, their
children cannot go to school, and they cannot access health care or
clean water. For many people, they are discriminated against; they
cannot move around freely; they cannot provide a better future for their
loved ones. In these conditions, charismatic leaders can appear, who,
supposedly inspired by a fundamentalist or an extremely nationalistic
ideology can convince people that it is legitimate to inflict violence
on others, to kill others.

Continued next post..

Humanist UK press release continued...

We know that these people are psychopathic and there will always be
psychopaths in the world. But ordinary people do not follow the erratic
ideologies of psychopaths when social justice is a reality. People who
can care for their families, who have access to good quality health-care
and education, who experience security in their old age, do not follow
psychopaths. People who are free to believe and practice whichever
religion they choose do not follow psychopaths. People who feel that
the value of their life is more important than money do not follow
psychopaths. Therefore, an end to violence comes with an end to social
injustice.

G8 summit
Of course the timing of the bombing is not a coincidence. At the same
time as we witness these terrorists acts the UK hosts the meeting of the
G8 leaders plus a host of other leaders talking about the issues facing
the world today. In this case we talk of climate change and poverty.
These leaders have the responsibility to end the violence. They have it
within their power to bring an end to poverty  1 trillion dollars spent
last year on defence is enough. They have it within their power to
bring social justice to everyone. But they will respond with more wars,
with more exploitation and more violence.

Sadly, we know that these leaders have no intention of bringing social
justice to the world. Therefore, their words of condemnation of the
violence mean nothing. They stand their condemning others as if they
had never been responsible for the deaths of anyone. They know what
they have to do and they will not do it.

It is the task of humanists around the world to unite, spread and
humanise this beautiful planet.

Swilkie
I appreciate your obvious attempt to bring some reason and understanding of the London Bombings.
Unfortunately, much of what that post contained was misguided and naive in the extreme. A lot was pure sentimentalism and wishful thinking, strong characteristics of the Humanist approach to life.

The 'social justice' and economic conditions we enjoy in the West, were purchased at the cost of Empire, and the ruthless exploitation of millions, Indians, Sri Lankans, Malays, Indonesians, Africans- the places where all the colonial activity took place. Colonies were not established to 'enlighten' people, it was done to exploit them.

Even we ourselves are a permament "colony" on this continent.
If we were deprived of the economic opportunities we currently enjoy, its quite possible, dare I say probable, or even live dangerously and say DEFINITELY, we would have the same attitude of being hard done by and hate those who seem better off than ourselves and who got to that point at our expense.

Even if we took the Zacchaeus approach and restored 4 fold to all those we have cheated, it would not solve the problem, which is inherant in human nature "sin". The answer is not more education, not a redistribution of resources, it is plain and simple repentance.
We can put a lot of things right when our hearts are 'living for today' in the Biblical sense, not storing up layer after layer of luxuriant wealth, and seeking those we can economically consume.

Inequity is a by product of race, culture and language, but most of all, sin. Repentance is the only 'medicine' which can treat this disease across all those barriers. I've seen it, lived it, know it and hence I proclaim it.
New life in Christ is the solution.

Islamic terrorists as seen by Christopher Hitchens, a California, journalist. The terrorists war is within Islam and within Islamic communities

I think that there has been, for a good number of years now, a civil war—probably more than one—within Islam between, on the one side those who favour Sharia law and its imposition by Jihad, not just on all Muslims but on all non-Muslims too.

And on the other, the large majority of Muslims, I think, who don’t wish to return to the Caliphate or to the desert ... the Jihadist forces hope to win this war to subjugate their own coalitionists by exporting it to our societies—to places like, well, London, most recently, to Bali, to Amsterdam, to Madrid and of course most memorably to New York. And so we’re caught up in a civil war that’s raging within Islam and it’s now not so much an intervention from outside as New York was but an indigenous participation by supporters of Bin Laden who actually live in and come from what has hitherto been rather lazily called ‘western’ or ‘European society’.

Now why is that: because these are the wrong kind of Muslims, because they are not true Muslims, they’re not real Muslims.

Look at the massacre, for example, of the Hazara, the Shiite tribes people in Afghanistan. Look at the way in which senior imams are shot down outside their places of worship in Baghdad and in Karbala and Najak by the forces of Zakawi. Look at what happened to Algeria when the GIA, a Muslim terrorist group, basically ex-communicated the entire population of the country and went to war against them with fire and sword. They were beaten off by the Algerian government and people but at a terrible cost in blood and with the use of very some rough methods, I have to say, that’s what’s going on. People who think this is in some way payback for the Crusades or for Palestine are simply deluding themselves.
(Cont)

The other example I would give would be, for example, the incessant attacks on the secular and partly Hindu government in India by extremists sponsored from Pakistan. This is East versus East in the longest struggle that Jihad has been waging, not East versus West. Prime Minister Blair doesn’t seem to have understood the essential point: this is a war for civilisations. It is not a clash of civilisations and the main civilisation that is under attack is Muslim. And several Muslims in London will have discovered that by being blown apart at random in London, England.

Well it makes people have to decide. The immigration, say, of Ugandan Asians to Britain or Bangladeshis has been a huge success—everybody loves them. They’re hardworking, they’re charming. They’ve worked a lot harder and better than do most English people. They’ve changed our national cuisine for the better. They’ve changed the way English literature is written—the way that novelists like, say Salman Rushdie or Hanif Kureishi on every literate person’s shelf.

It’s been a marvellous thing, and these people have, obviously, an attachment to the dialectical relationship between Britain and their countries of origin. But there are some who don’t accept this and their only hope of making any headway is to make life so miserable that a dual loyalty question can be raised. And ultimately, in less developed countries like Iraq and Afghanistan, to make life so chaotic and miserable that people would look forward even to a Taliban regime as an improvement because it would bring law and order.

But the name for this is fascism? It is a deliberate attempt to play on superstition, on racial and confessional and ethnic differences by the cruellest form of violence and spread panic and paranoia and conspiracy theories in the hope of destroying the possibility of democratic discourse. And there can only be one response to that, which is to outlive them, and, in fact, to put it bluntly, to out kill them. If they want to be martyrs, then we have to help them.
(cont later)

Aisha (beautiful Muslim name for a non Muslim!)

Preaching to the converted here! You obviously forget that Jesus Christ teachings and miracles are in the Koran as well..:)
My points was just not to confuse the legal aspect with the spiritual aspects of the Koran and don’t judge us all for the doings of a bunch of psychopaths. I didn’t judge my Christian friends were muslim children were killed in Bosnia and the killing ceremony was attended by a priest. There are good people and horrible people. Religion will be used as a tool either for good or bad; it only mirrors what they have inside.

AK

Swilkie,
“Lack of social justice is the greatest form of violence”.
And what sort of social injustice are we talking about? Where does that start? Where does the responsibility really lie. Who forced the many countries especially in the Middle East to spend more of ‘defence” (loose term defence) than on true needs of their populations. Many of the countries are resource rich but still refuse to use wisely that resource. % of GDP spent on defence versus health and education is the true injustice here. The West did not force that on anyone.

People look at the G8 and says more must be done… “These leaders have the responsibility to end the violence” But also we must look at the other dancer in this tango. True the West is not saintly, and as BOAZ has said, colonialism did exploit countries, but that is getting on 50 years ago. The hundreds of miles of train tracks that have fallen into disrepair since colonialism ended, who caused that? The huge weapon stockpiles purchased and used on rival tribes – who again?

George Bush is right (yes! that George Bush) get the Europeans to drop subsidies to their inefficient farmers and that gets the African agriculture a foot in the door. But if the governments use the money responsibly then injustice can be truly tackled.

What I am getting at is that people have to take responsibility for their actions? And that is what (I think) Irfan Yusuf is getting at. It is up to the moderate Muslims who see these atrocities in London, Madrid and Iraq caused by extreme Muslims must stand up and denounce them and (IMO) fight against that. To do otherwise is not good enough.

And furthermore Muslims must look at the countries that breeds these terrorists and speak out where the true injustice springs from. How much does Iran spend on getting a nuclear capability and could that go to worthy causes? In Iran?

Big Fish, it's all very well and good for Bush to want EU agricultural subsidies dropped, but what about the US equivalent? He'll never drop those. Yet again, it's a case of US exceptionalism. Consider the Reagan sugar bill as a prime example. Even for the so-called "thank you" of the Australia/US FTA, big sugar's subsidy was sacrosanct. And speaking of "Thank yous" ... a big one to the Leonard Cohen posters. I am now stuck with the mental image of Sister Janet Mead trilling "Give me crack and anal sex. Take the only tree that's left, and shove it up the hole in your culture".

wow.

i write an article about my mum and her jewish friend and i get around 12 responses. i write something about unfair dismissal laws and i get around 25 responses.

and i write something defending muslims and other victims of the london bombing and i get over 50 responses.

could all those people who claim to hate muslims because of their love for australia please tell me why all those aussies who might lose their jobs because of unfair dismissal changes are not worthy of comment and concern? or don't you care about aussies losing their jobs and not having an inexpensive remedy?

Hello all,

First of all I want to congratulate Irfan for his great initiative. Perhaps we can think with him on how we can get people around the world to speak against acts of terror AND be heard.

I agree that it is CRUCIAL for Muslim people to speak out, to criticise extremism within their religion as other religions should criticise extremism within theirs.

Terror acts or wars in the name of any religion, ideology or agenda should not be tolerated. Not by people linked to that religion in question or by others.

It is vital to keep doors open and be a critic to yourself, to your religion, when practicing any belief or ideology, for that is what it needs to strike a balanced approach and stay in touch with the real world and its people. An open debate would only assist in creating a better understanding of how diverse a religion can be.

Any extremist approach is dangerous, making certain people (women, people with another religion, nationality, race, background) or other life on earth less valuable than the practicioner of that belief.

I call upon people to build a new powerful, general public opinion, supported by people from all religions, where all people and life are equally respected, regardless of backgrounds, gender, race or belief.

Terror and war CAN be beaten and should be beaten. There are many good people in this world, but they should be activated and supported.

Do not push your own ideology, join a group of people who all believe their thing, but respect the belief of others and communicate, not fight.

Speak out, take some non-violent action, write a letter to your paper. Posting to this debate is a start.

Cecile

Ps: Perhaps you can set up a website Irfan. Your initiative is where major things start, creating mutual understanding for a better world, for all of us, regardless of ideology or religion.

Irfan, the reason you get a lot of responses is because it is a good article. You are also writing about something that is close to people's hearts.

I live in Australia. I work here but I care more about peace in the world than about unfair dismissals because it has not affected me. The London bombings have touched people all over the world and so have other acts of terror.

I am dismayed you have received some ridiculous, negative responses, and that people dare to push their ideology or religion in this debate. This is clearly inappropriate.

But please look at the constructive comments.
In calling upon Muslims to respond, you have reached a far bigger audience in Australia. Your call is courageous and I hope it will receive overwhelming positive support from both Muslims and non-Muslims.

I hope your action will have the impact it needs. Perhaps it is a good idea and timely to target Muslim groups with a profile if you really want to have some needed responses from the right individuals.


Cecile

Fellow_Human, you know as well as I do that muslims do not follow Jesus; neither the Jesus in the Koran nor the Jesus of the Bible. Muslims follow Muhammad!

In Buddhism there is the story of a man who has everything; prosperity, wife and family. He gives it all up and goes and meditates until he reaches enlightenment. He returns to his people and preaches love, kindness and non-attachment. The bible is the story of a people who are caught up in a quagmire of rules, warfare, scapegoating, victim roles, blood sacrifice, revenge, tit for tat, legalism (sound familiar?) and so on, until one day a man is born who frees them from all that and gives them 'free gift of grace' and 'unconditional love'. Lastly, in Islam we have a story of man who starts out with a few nice teachings (stolen from Christianity, but that's another story). When he has amassed a certain amount of followers he degenerates into a ruthless warmongerer who slaughters and rapes and steals. The story ends with him dying, cursing the jews and christians. These stories are archetypes that are the TEMPLATES of one's culture and life structure. These templates are born out of ideologies; stories that are passed on down the generations; stories that can lead to misery or, on the other hand, peace and prosperity. What story are you in - a degenerate's story or an enlightened one?

This article and accompanying references proves that today's Islamic terrorism is indeed inspired by the life and teachings of Prophet Muhammad;

http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/JenniferKing50710.htm

While there is Islam there will always be violence as it is so easy to justify using the example and teachings of the main character of Islam, and too easy to recruit those brainwashed from childhood to revere a man who was nothing but a terrorist himself. The only difference between Nazism and Islam is that Isalm calls itself a religion, and that is far more dangerous and cancerous for this planet with increasing access to technology and WMDs

Irfan

I take your point, I really wonder at some of the issues that receive the bulk of posters - eg, domestic violence, homosexuality, religion as compared to job security, environment, our political leaders. It is indeed strange.

However, Ciel has made a good point - many of us have relatives in Britain - most of us are descended from the British Isles, and we feel a great affinity for London. I don't, but I am descended from celtic stock.

I fully endorse your sentiments in your article and agree with Ciel that a website would be a good idea.

Ignore the bigots and right-wing christian contingent - they're always inciting negatives about everyone except themselves. I also believe they are a minority (albeit a vocal one).

I would request that all religious leaders form a coalition against extremists of all religious/political persuasions and declare that terror and violence only perpetuates itself and is the antithesis to peace.

Thank you.

Aisha,

Few comments:
- I cannot be a Muslim if I don’t believe in Jesus and his teachings. We just don’t worship him. That’s all. ‘Muslims follow Mohammed’ is a myth that you created. Muslims follow the Koran and Mohammed is one of the prophets. In fact, he is the least mentioned prophet in the Koran.
- “while there is Islam there is violence” means you are brainwashed my dear. Just pick up the encyclopaedia Britannica and look at the history of wars in the last 20 centuries.
- By calling my religion all these names, you are not exactly following Jesus’ teachings are you? :):)
- Not sure were you have been for the last few centuries but Islam is a religion. It is fast growing even in Australia among non Muslims. Someone likes it for whatever reason, you don’t need to.
- Christianity became peaceful after the separation of Church and State my friend. Please re read your own history: very colourful! Religions only mirrors what people are like inside.
- There is many of your ‘brotherly love’ websites by fellow Christians. Interesting when you look up Google, these sites pay a premium to throw dirt on Muslims..ie well funded vilification.. We can’t do that because we love ‘your’ guy and he is our prophet as well! But that’s OK, I am sure you go home at night and think ‘you did a good job and that God is Love’! Unbelievable hypocrisy.

Finally, if you are a real Christian, you should appreciate that Muslims are at least monotheist; believe in Jesus, his message, his virgin birth and second coming.

Trinity,

I endorse your call on religious coalition against extremism. Perhaps Irfan’s next article should be about it.

Peace,
AK

Someone said, (and I can't remember who, unfortunately, so I can't give them credit) that you get terrorism when you combine a sense of moral superiority with a sense of economic and military inferiority.
Irfan, your appeal against anyone believing in their own moral superiority is very important. I believe most religious figures have preached humility, would that more of their followers took that idea to heart.
George Bush frightens me because he also claims a moral superiority. In my view, such claims are always dangerous.

Irfan, have you made your "call" in unambiguous terms on the forum "Islamic Sydney" ? I hope so, because there are a number of people there who will forefully argue that an Islamic replublic in Australia is their hearts desire.
Nice to see the variety of comments. All good.

Fellow_Human, I am a muslim apostate, and now an agnostic humanist, not a christian, but I have to keep it secret IRL. Why? Because of threats and pressure from family and friends. I hope you will wake up too! :-)

To the social justice crowd; you are very naive to imagine that Islamic terrorism is due to social injustice. If it were so, then please explain why there are no Tibetan suicide bombers? American Indian hijackers? Aboriginal mass murderers? Who ever heard of an eskimo flying planes into buildings? These people are just 'some' of the thousands of people who have suffered from injustices, more so than muslims. Secondly, why is it that nearly ALL Islamic terrorists are highly educated, wealthy and at least middle class? Go back to the beginning of my first paragraph of my post and you will have the answer.

There have been 2400 Islamic terrorist attacks since 9/11 http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/

Until we name the enemy; the ideology of Prophet Muhammad, we will not defeat Islam.

Terrorism Knowledge Base; http://www.tkb.org/Home.jsp
Other sites;
www.jihadwatch.org
www.faithfreedom.org
Online book on the lifestory of Muhammad; www.prophetofdoom.net

Fellow_Human, I hope to see you in the forum of faithfreedom.org! I can only post twice a day so can't really debate with you. If you want to fight terrorism you have to also say no to Muhammad; he was Islam's first terrorist. See you at FFI

‘The Big Fish’. Social injustice is the fact that the majority of humanity lives in unsustainable, sometimes sub-human conditions, while a small minority live in material excess. The balance is wrong, & we as a race are responsible.
“who forced the middle eastern countries to spend more on defence than the needs of the population?” - You’re implying an external influence or cause has resulted in the poverty being experienced in many individual middle eastern nations. I think you’re right. Examine each case as it stands. There are many historical reasons as to the political structure of each country, from the Monarchy of Saudi Arabia to the Tribal representations of Afghanistan. One thing is indisputable – western nations have been taking advantage of non-democratic & democratically vunerable nations for centuries now. The US is currently doing its best to secure oil reserves. It has no excuse for the violence it uses in the process. Multinational corporations frequently use their financial clout to ensure natural resources & cheap labour available in these nations are taken advantage of. These are huge influences. These are influences we can, to some degree, control.
“the responsibility of ones actions” Yes, we certainly need more of it. We are responsible for the external influences on the middle east & the people that comprise the nations are responsible for their own local affairs. Many of these nations are non-democratic. The west must be consistent in its values & not allow multinationals to influence the finances of many nations (unless of course it actually benefits the masses)
“Boaz”. I repent.

Aisha,

You are saying exactly what the terrorists want you to say. Well done. You should receive a certificate of appreciation from al-Qaida.

Terrorists want ordinary believers to turn against each other. They want to create a moral vacuum which they can fill with their nonsense.

I accept that your goal is to defeat Islam. My goal is to defeat terrorism and violence and war. If you wish to write the same things some Germans wrote about Jews in the 1920's and 30's, be my guest.

What great postings and revelations, it is good to see great debates. Are we not lucky we live in a country that can criticise, denounce, speculate, debate and hope? And freely express that. A true democracy. Ifran, am paying attention to all your articles and unfair dismissal is one of them. This one has captured my email time the most (I do have a life outside this forum which sometimes gets in the way). Shall always look out for an article by you.

Anomie, thanks for the feedback about George Dubya/US subsidies - spot on. Re your vision of Sr Janet lipsynching to St Leonard, Vatican Idol not! I shall now have nightmares about what's going on "beneath her resplendent chemise"!

They say it’s a war on terror, which is nonsense. One has to understand: it's a war among Muslims. Bin Laden’s fractional minority does not want to fight against empires; but to fight to restore an empire, the ancient Caliphe, that fight is for a particularly sectarian and vicious and exclusive form of Wahabi Salafi Islam. We have a huge number of Muslim allies; they don’t want to live in a Taliban world. Who would?

Remember what the grievances are, those people who’ll say their grievances are over Palestine; that’s nothing to do with it. Their grievances are the grievance of the unveiled woman. That’s what they can’t stand. They don’t want to see any statues that are not Islamic. In fact, they don’t want to see any representational art of any kind. Remember the Bamiyan Buddhas? They don’t want people to be able to listen to music. They don’t object to the state of Israel but to the existence of the Jewish people. They declare Hinduism and Shi’ism to be vile heresies, punishable by death. We absolutely disarm ourselves if we grant them any of their first premises—that they’re interested in justice or in a better distribution of resources. They’re fascist, pure and simple.

Yes, they know that in England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland, young Muslims go with their frinds to pubs and they occasionally take a drink and cheer on the same football teams and the next you know, they’ll be eating pork and going out, walking along hand in hand with women who are not their sisters. This, they feel, has to be stopped. It’s blasphemy. They don’t care who they kill. I don’t think it can be underlined enough. Anyone who says putting a bomb on a bus in rush hour at the time my daughter is going to school is protesting about the war in Iraq is lying to themselves and lying to others. It’s the kind of stuff that ceases to be tolerable to me and I really think today should be one of the days that’s remembered for rolling this nonsense back.

What we need in Australia is for the moderate Muslims who love our democracy and our way of life to be vigilant in exposing those dedicated to the cause of the religion above the equal rights of all citizens of Australia. They need to dob in those talking extreme language including those who continually vilify Western Christian Nations to our National Security. When we have Good Muslims doing the work for the police we can see some hope. However one of the aspects of Islam is deception, i.e. all methods are acceptable even lies and suicide bombings if it achieves the cause of having Allah reign supreme.

Firstly Di, “Anomie, thanks for the feedback about George Dubya/US subsidies - spot on” Not Quite. Did not mentioned that GW Bush offered to lower US subs if Europe also came to the table. What I am getting is that I am worried that even if the subs are removed how much of the benefit would flow through to the populations of the poorer nations? This was the context of my discussion and follows onto what Infran is saying (IMO) in that Muslims must do something to start redress the damage a small minority is doing to the majority who follow Islam. That is people have to take responsibilities for their lives and influence where they can.

Following on from that. Swilkie indicates that large multinationals and Western Governments have put enormous pressure onto the poorer countries and have also exploited them. Enormous pressures exist yes, exploited maybe once yes, in the fast receding past. But that has happened in many countries over many centuries including through dark-middle ages when Muslim empires exploited Spain and Northern African if you want to go back that far. But these empires introduce science and mathematics to Europe. So move to present day, little change. Take a look at Asia. Exploited once, maybe, but now Booming. To say a country is exploited because of enormous pressure Swilkie you forget one thing, material resources do not move and a country has them and nothing changes that. So Multinationals have to deal with that country. If you say that this pressure in cases dealing with Islamic cultures or African states leads to exploitation, well, sounds a bit racist. In essence you are saying that these societies cannot provide themselves with benefits as well as other societies eg Asia. Why not? Not because they are “not Western”. I think Muslims and Africans have the capability as any other society to contribute to the world but must face up to what impedes that path. And part of that is denounce terrorists, extremism and bad governance.

Ifran,
I enjoy your articles. They show tolerance, moderation and an understanding of the issues developing in the world regarding the diverse cultures we have on this quite small planet. Thank you for continuing to build a body of reason for us all to discuss. I haven’t posted here previously because I could see the same arguments coming from other threads.

It would seem to me that ‘our’ society has as much trouble with tolerance and understanding as any problem supposedly raised regarding Islam. I am not a leader in any religious group but perhaps the suggestion that the religious leaders in the Australian community could begin working together is a worthy thought. If seen working together overtly (i.e. let all Australians know and see) the leaders could begin to build the collective front required to undermine the extremist/fundamentalist agendas. Media releases, published joint-articles and the like would go a long way to silencing the disunity being touted here.

If I recall correctly, Islam calls its followers to treat strangers with respect and honour in their house, at the risk of dishonouring themselves? Well, the least I can do is offer you the same. It’s a pity certain factions can’t behave in a similar civilised way…

Big Fish – you don’t see multinationals accepting goods made for $1 a day as exploitation?

Peace and tolerance to all.

Aisha or whatever your name is.

Philo's posting above highlights exactly where terrorism is coming from and who is it targeting. It is the difference between someone who reads and analyses and another brainwashed.

As for your websites that you keep advertising you don't need to. They are all premium advertisers on search engines (ie paying a top rate per click) which means each have a $500k-$700K per year per site per search engine. Congratulations on millions of dollars to be spent on your cause.

You might want to chose a less obvious name if you are not a muslim by the way, ...how about "khadija"? :):)

I would agree there Fellow_Human, that it is best to gather information from a number of sources before forming opinions.

Consider the following:-
"Ministers now believe that the bombings - which left at least 49 people dead in Britain's worst terrorist attack - were the work of a "very, very small number" of individuals who arrived from mainland Europe or North Africa on false passports within the past six months."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/07/10/ncrime10.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/07/10/ixnewstop.html

"Former Metropolitan Police chief Sir John Stevens has warned the London bombers were "almost certainly" British and that there were many more born and bred here willing to attack".
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=355300&in_page_id=1770&ct=5

So two different newspapers, two different sets of “facts” as to where the bombers originated. The bombings were most likely politically motivated, but every person should keep an open mind, so that they do not become brainwashed or manipulated or treated as pawns by those who can gain from such.

No one should be expected to defend their faith because of the actions of others.

No Muslim is responsible for the actions of other Muslims because he is a "Muslim" - any more than a Roman Catholic is responsible for the 30 years of attrocities perpetrated by the IRA against Londoners because he is a "Roman Catholic".

A Muslim living in London might wish to speak out - not because he is Muslim but because he is a Londoner and presumably British - expressing his contempt for those who threaten his freedom of action and association by planting bombs.

Not since around the time of Charles I has any true Englishman expected anyone to denounce someone based on religious values.

I see no reason to turn back the clock and expect it now.

Certainly, Muslims who would support the actions of terrorists or a Jihad are better off in gaol or leaving UK for nastier shores (more suited to their attitudes) but Muslims who accept the tolerance which UK is famous for should value the price that tolerance places on them - and that price is to accept co-existence with non-Muslims and support the reality of freedom of expression and faith - especially when that freedom as expressed by non-Muslims may be confronting to what Muslims may hold dear.

The streets of London is no place for a Jihad - any more than the streets of Sydney, New York or Bahgdad. The only place for a Jihad is in the minds of deluded idiots whose quest for personal power has corrupted them - and thus deserving to be locked up behind strong bars to keep them well away from real and decent people (of all faiths).

- For Muslim you may also substitute all and every other minority or majority social, racial or religious group in the UK (or, IMHO, in Australia for that matter).

"No one should be expected to defend their faith because of the actions of others."

Col Rouge, while I heartily endorse your sentiments, only in an ideal world does the above apply. The Muslim faith is suffering from some very bad image probs as a result of an insane minority.

Timkins, in your open-minded opinion, do you agree that London Muslims should decry the actions of the terrorist minority?

Col, from a theory basis I'm in agreement with you. From a pragmatic perspective I think it makes a lot of sense for the Muslim community to speak out against terrorism.

Two reasons stick out for this
- Muslim leaders might get listened too a bit more than non muslims by those considering being a part of the "jihad". Maybe if the voice of the moderate muslim community is loud enough on this it will raise some doubts about the virgins and paradise etc as rewards for killing the innocent. I'm not holding my breath on this but I can always hope.
- Similar score for lessening tensions with the non muslim community. Clear statements against terror might reduce the support for torching mosques etc. Take away some of the crutches used to justify that kind of action. Again I'm not holding my breath.

R0bert

Xena,
I would think that people of all faiths should decry the bombing of civilians. It mostly slipped the media’s attention, but about 60 people died in Iraq on the weekend due to bombings (mainly suicide bombings), but the people behind these bombings in Iraq are normally called “insurgents”, and not “terrorists”. However whether they are “insurgents” or “terrorists”, or just “bombers”, they kill innocent people.

There is a long way to go before the people who are responsible for the bombings in London are finally brought to trial and convicted. The bombings were obviously well co-ordinated, quite sophisticated, and would require money, expertise and planning. So hopefully the people who are brought to trial will include the big fish, as well as the little fish.

XENA
"Islam"'s problem with image is not because of an insane minority, do you realize you are comdemning their prophet when you say that ?

How do you describe this ==>

(the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.

I won't repeat all my post from the "nutbags" thread, but you can read it if you like.

The problem with Islams image is "Islam" as practiced by its founder, and who's example the 'loony bombers' are following. If you doubt me, read the Quran, Hadith,Histories. Tracing a direct line from MOhammed down to the present day in terms of treatment of non Muslims, specially Jews. (moderate Muslims are nice people, but they are in denial about the reality of their own faith and history)

This tells it all ==> http://islam.com/reply.asp?id=477507&ct=9&mn=477507

Mostly quotes from the Quran justifiying murder of Jews.

Here is an up to date 'sermon' by a leading Saudi (the home of Islam) Imam Shaikh Saad Al-Buraik

2002

Muslim Brothers in Palestine, do not have any mercy neither compassion on the Jews, their blood, their money, their flesh. Their women are yours to take, legitimately. God made them yours. Why don't you enslave their women? Why don't you wage jihad? Why don't you pillage them?

I've not been able to verify personally the source for this, but it does reflect the Quranic and Hadith and Histories reports of Mohammeds actions.

Is it any wonder that the likes of Waleed Ali and the Islamic Council of Victoria are willing to spend $400,000 for high priced (Jewish? thats curious) lawyers to silence to Christian pastors who tell it like it is.
The truth can be hurtful

BOAZ_David, I feel you are undermining your ability to be taken seriously in these forums though your constant insistance on your specific point of view, which apart from anything else, is often insulting towards people who have different beliefs to yourself. I hope this is not coming across rude, but it seems as if a little less scripture, and a little more thought, might help you make your points, which of course you are quite entitled to, in ways which might come across as less dogmatic.

Now, topic.

While I think it is important, in some regards, for 'moderate' muslim people to come out against these attacks, mainly as a PR issue- it is in a way rather sad that we need to think this- surely outrage and disgust at the killing of innocent people should be expected from all, and not need to be explicitly stated? Whether people are from a religious or ethnic or national background which has been unfortunatly associated with various crimes of late, should not automatically suggest any guilt on their behalf. Afterall, we do not judge all Irish people as automatically needing to denouce the IRA to absolve themselves of responsibility, for example.

Xena and Robert

I do recall the support the North American Irish community lavished on the IRA in the 1970’s – including financing the shipping of weapons between Boston and Cork and Southampton on the QE2 – the fact is the IRA could operate with impunity and hold fund raising events in bars and walk through the streets of New York yet the British Consul General could not fly the Union Jack outside his office for fear of bombing.

It was only recently, following another IRA outrage – the murder of a fellow Irishman in which the IRA "officials" offered to execute the perpetrators, that the mood changed and Americans started to recognise the IRA for what it is – a terrorist organisation with drug and criminal links to Iran, Afghanistan, Libya and with other promoters of insurrection and mayhem.

In the 1970’s and 1980’s and 1990’s - did we hear the Bishop of Boston condemning the IRA? – did the Pope stand up and denounce them ? – No!

That someone is silent on a matter does not imply they are in support of a particular cause.

I would suggest anyone who thinks ordinary Muslims need to “prove” themselves by denouncing terrorists because terrorists claim to act in the name of their religion should demand the same of Catholics regarding the IRA hiding behind the supposed suffering of Catholic Irishmen.

Such stupid prejudice only increases minorities disaffection and the opportunity for terrorists to find more recruits.

I for one will not insult my Muslim or Catholic or any other category of friends by making such a presumptuous demand.

Laurie – we echo what each other has written.

Irfan, I not against you; I am against ideology of Muhammad (actually it is he who is against you). Most muslims do not read the holy scriptures in their own language and, on average, 50% of muslims in islamic countries are illiterate. Most do not know the story of Muhammad and horrific details of his immorality. There is an unhealthy air of mystique on the scriptures and on life of Muhammad, but this is changing; people are reading. I was shocked when I read about it for the first time. In fact, I could barely sleep at night for imagining those 100s men he lined up and one by one Muhammad and his men chopped off their heads as they fell into the graves they had previously dug. I felt ill when I read about limb choppings, nails driven into eyes, the marriage consummation with a 9 year old, the taking of women and all the other gory details of Muhammad's life. When you read it you would be horrified about who you and your parents and grandparents have been following and honouring. I was also deeply affected by the way he stoned that poor single mother to death and left poor child orphan. As a mother I find that abominable. Do you really believe that a 'God' could sanction all this torture and death and such severe punishments on people who were simply being human? I decided that if I were to be against terrorism, I had to stop following a terrorist. Both muslims and nonmuslims must get under that veil of obscurity and mystique of Islam and look at it for what it is.
Fellow_Human, I completely agree with Philo, and he has also pointed out Islamic phenomenon that most westerners are unaware of; Taqquia; Deception. The reason those sites get a lot of advertising is because they have a large amount of visitors. People are finding out the truth about Islam and Prophet Muhammad, and it’s a healthy sign.

Col_Rouge; the IRA were acting in OPPOSITION to Christ’s teachings, what has the Pope got to apologise for

BD,

Again, the same repetitive misleading comments (see my posting to you on Nutbags, Macarthysm.. )
You constantly fail to isolate the legal system in Islam (which is your example on harsh punishment to war treason) from the spiritual message. I have no problems with you comparing but please do it likes to likes. Under your new Judea Christianity slogan, please compare crime punishment in the Koran to the Old testament: Stone the disobedient children to death, lock your wife out of the household during PMS, don’t touch her for 40 days if she have a baby boy (becomes an 80 days if it’s a baby girl).

Jumping from religion to politics, Muslims, Christians and Jews lived together for centuries and fought together against the Nazis and colonialism. Palestinians issues are related to land conflict and they get easily manipulated into violence because they grew up watching everything taken away from them. The fact still remains that best treatment Jews ever had was by Arab Muslims and Arab Christians.

Selective ethics: you wear the ethics hate until it comes to the CTF Pastor and all of a sudden it is OK to be unethical as long you are legal!! It is OK for a Pastor to twist fact (while knowing the truth), mislead good people who come to church and donate for charity because it is legal!! Wow. isn’t that the ‘end justifies the means’ theory where Hitler and BinLaden are great followers?

Anyway, Australians are smart good and come to us to understand our faith rather than being mislead by their ‘misleaders of the faith’. Keep up the good work and spend the poor people donations on hate websites.
I am proud to be an Aussie and proud to be Muslim and I pray to for God to save the country from people like the Bin Laden and ‘fake love filled people’.

Aisha, you said earlier you are a Muslim then agnostic then your response re the IRA proves you are a Christian. The only ‘Deception’ here is you my fellow sister in humanity.

Regards

Ash (the Other!)

Fellow human, as far as I'm concerned all religions are stuffed since they were created by cunning men to control and subjugate ignorant people.

We need something better to fill in the gap of our insecurities.Perhaps some common sense wisdom ,logic ,science, maths and philosophy.

This religious banter of "My god is better than yours."will see the world destroy itself.

Anyway what sort of god would want to communicate with such pathetic creatures such as us humans.

Our technological advances have out stripped our ability to cope with change.This new threat of Muslim fundamentalism is the real danger to our human survival.Where is the logic?Just blind faith.

Being dead is like the time before birth.I just have trouble remembering what it was like.Be assured ,death is final and that is why we should treasure this life.

If people of all beliefs don't see this,then it will be only a matter of time before there is a nuclear attack.

Lauri (and Col by the looks of it)
I take your point on board, and accept that I can be very passionate in my efforts/posting, and also that (rightly or wrongly) things I say can be perceived as insulting to those of different opinions.

The same goes for the treatment I receive, from the likes of Garra, and Fiona, occasionally Xena, but she is more good hearted about it. I take it on the chin, and continue to express my views.

I would however ask, that you limit your criticism of my postings to matters of factual inaccuracy, and flaws in reasoning, (I welcome fair scrutiny) rather than how those facts are pereived by others.

I think you will agree, (unless u can show otherwise) that I refrain from personal attacks. At least I aim to avoid it.

Arjay,

I make the point in regard to Christ and following Him, that as Ghandi recognized "If the Christians followed the gospel, India would be Christian" That speaks volumes does it not ?

There is a very noticable difference between 'following' Jesus and 'using His name to legitimize political gains'.

Ghandi saw it, can you ?

TOPIC. I don't really see the need for Muslims to condemn the London bombings (on reflection).. words have to come from the heart and PR is not what we need right now. I would prefer to see Muslims condemning their own prophet for his massacre of the Jews of Bani Qurayza, where groups of them were brought to him to be systematically beheaded, while the women and children were sold/divided up as slaves.

We are calling Srebroniza (the systematic killing of 8000 Muslim men and boys), a 'holocast level war crime' yet Mohammed committed the very same thing to 'POW's who SURRENDERED. If anyone wants reference for this, I can happily provide them. (From Quran and Hadith)

Will Muslims honestly condemn such things ? If not, why not?

No amount of sugar coating can change these factual events. It doesn't matter how many peace overtures Mr Sharon makes, he is still called "war criminal" by Muslims

>Aisha, you said earlier you are a Muslim then agnostic then your >response re the IRA proves you are a Christian.

LOL The only thing it proves is that you are in complete denial about Prophet Muhammad because you have not refuted any of my claims and instead tried diversion. But I can sympathise with you though; it's very upsetting to imagine that these terrorists could be behaving just like the prophet did. I urge you (and others) to go to the forum at www.faithfreedom.org It is a secularists site run by ex muslims. I don't think most westerners realise how crucial it is that Islamic ideology be put under the microscope. The west has been critcising christianity for 5 centuries and it has done them good. Now it's Islam's turn

From the article below it is evident that the Islamic community in Britain honestly believe the holy books written by and about Mohamed (i.e. the Qur’an and Hadiths) actively vilifies and incites hatred of Christians, Jews and infidels and will fall foul of "hate laws". That’s why they have lobbied to have them exempt from the proposed legislation because they actually violate the intended law on religious hatred. Perhaps this recognised after the two Daniels in Victoria quoted passages from these pseudo divine texts that caused laughter. It’s a matter of double standard: Muslims are seeking exemption to be allowed to vilify and promote hatred in the name of their god but Christians are not allowed to quote the texts publicly because it puts Muslims in poor light. They have no consistent morality, and do not see that all men are equal. They obviously believe only Islam has special privilege under shari’ah law.

UNITED KINGDOM, 11 July 2005
The MUSLIM COUNCIL OF BRITAIN has asked that the QUR'AN and Hadiths BE EXEMPT FROM RELIGIOUS HATRED LAW

"Muslim leaders in the UK have raised with a Home Office Minister the possibility of the Islamic scriptures being exempted from the proposed new law banning incitement to religious hatred, which is being debated and voted on in the British Parliament today.
These scriptures include both the Qur'an and the Hadiths ("ahadith" in Arabic) which are traditions recording the words and deeds of Muhammad and his first followers. The Racial and Religious Hatred bill is being debated and voted on in the House of Commons today. This is the third reading of the bill, and if passed today will move forward to be debated in the House of Lords.

Attached... includes the report from the Muslim Weekly...
The Muslim Weekly story is at http://www.themuslimweekly.com/fullstoryview.aspx?NewsID=TW00003074&MENUID=&DESCRIPTION=Search%20result

Note: The President of the Muslim Council of Britain Sir Iqbal Sacranie stated that he was at eased that matters that had caused some obfuscation in the community had been cleared.
He was knighted in the recent Queen's Birthday Honours....
The link contains a list of those in the delegation

JustDan, You comment “you don’t see multinationals accepting goods made for $1 a day as exploitation?”
I have said there has been exploitation. Read what I have written not what you THINK I have written.
If you consider that this might have given someone a job otherwise not available to them OR the wage may be a small but not insignificant contribute to the cost of living in that country. Then I suppose that is exploitation. And I suppose that from there the countries could become like South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, emerging India, Thailand, etc then it might be a route to consider. How soon we forget. Hell, I am in an industry now competing against India low costs all the time. Who would of thought this happening even just twenty years ago?

I still cannot get over some people’s pity them attitude that a country dealing with these “multinationals” is not going to try to get the most it can from the deals. Sounds very much like, these poor people cannot handle it, lets help because we know better. Sounds almost, dare I say, racist. I believe they can and have the capability to improve their lot in life. Which gets onto the thrust of posting on this forum. Ifran’s message. I personally think it needs to go further than just denounce terrorism. But it needs to start somewhere. Muslims (and others) need to speak up against other problems like ideologies that direct the money away from health and education in the developing countries. And lets not concentrate solely on external factors (aid, debt relief which cannot always be there) when many countries like Ethiopia, Saudi, Jordon spend greater % GDP on Defense than US? Or why states have nuclear programs (not cheap) instead of spending more on health and education. Compare with Costa Rica, abolished the army in 1949, spend Quarter of its budget on education and has a thriving health sector. Life expectancy is comparable with the West. Consider this honestly and tell me who is exploiting who?
So why not denounce terrorism?

Aisha,
Again you are betting on the ignorance of your counterpart.
There are two different scenarios you keep confusing: POW and ‘treason during war’:

- When Prophet Mohamed entered Mecca after a decade or so of being persecuted and prevented to pray in his home town. He took 6,000 prisoners. These are POWs and what did he do to them? He released them all regardless of their religion with no condition.
- The incident you refer to is a time of war: all Jewish tribes promised truce when the prophet was in a war, then one of the jewish tribes turned and attacked his back and killed lots of civilians. This is treason during war and at least has the decency to mention that the proposed punishment was made by other Jewish tribes who wanted to rescue the muslim jewish relations. Prophet Mohamed implemented the law.
- There is no message on the website you keep advertising: Islam is bla.bla.bla! Maybe you should explain why is it the fastest growing religion then? Is it the positive media coverage? Nope. Maybe we have 21 million missionaries knocking doors to convert people? Not that one too…..We are happy with our religion. Just be happy with yours and move on..

AK

Aisha "Col_Rouge; the IRA were acting in OPPOSITION to Christ’s teachings, what has the Pope got to apologise for "

To paraphrase -

These terrorists were acting in OPPOSITION to Mohammad’s teachings, what has any Muslim got to apologise for?

Before jumping on the points that Philo raises – aspects of the Bible are pretty blood thirsty and have been used to justify many anti-semitic activities over the centuries – again we are not talking about the literal interpretation of text.

My personal opinion –

A "righteous" person – be they Jewish, Christian, Muslims, Buddhist or Atheist is measured by how they “respond” to what they read – not for reading ancient words themselves, often in a much revised and manipulated body of text (be that the Koran or Bible – applies to both).

A "less-than-righteous" person will attempt to justify their own prejudices by making demands for denouncements on those they see as holding views not identical to their own.

May God (by whatever name) preserve us all from the demands, prejudices and bigotry of the less-than-righteous.

Islam is not the fastest growing religion; that is simply propaganda and a lie. New Age religions are the fastest growing religions, seconded by evangelical christianity, mostly in africa, but also in russia and the west. New muslims are due to large birth rate. Also, many people are apostatising from Islam but they have to keep it secret because they risk being killed, imprisoned or simply put under great pressure. I have a friend who admitted her apostasy to her parents. She was put under extreme pressure and eventually had to lie to them that she was a muslim again. Muslims are taught that Islam is their identity, that is why it is so hard to extricate ourselves from it. The ones that do apostise, you don’t hear about them going public because they invariably get murdered. So you will never get accurate statistics about Islam.

As for your defence of Prophet Muhammad, you mention the (abrogated) Mecca period only, how will you justify the later Medina period? There are so many references I don't know where to begin, so I will be lazy and just put this link on; http://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles.htm Here is a good article written today that explains what dangers the world is up against; http://www.faithfreedom.org/oped/AbulKasem50712.htm I realise this makes you and others uncomfortable, but muslims are not children that need special protection from criticism.

Apologies from muslims will not change the root cause of all this terror; the deeds of the Islamic role model; Muhammad.

Col Rouge, the violence in the bible is superseded and abrogated by the birth, life and teachings of the main character of Christianity; Christ himself. The problem with Islam is that you are stuck with a story of a man who starts off benevolent, but degenerates into a vengeful murderer. You need the whole story; not just a quote here and there

Aisha,

It is not ‘where do you start” but you were caught red handed.

- First I grew up in a Muslim country with a large Christian population: the criticism for change of religion is mainly related to tribalism and tribal culture. Rejection awaits everyone who changes religion in some regions whether they are Muslims or Christians. I knew of Orthodox Christian girls who were killed by their parents for marrying a French catholic. Atheism, communism parties are active in at least 7 of the 22 Muslim countries.
- Please don’t confuse tribalism with religion: I can tell you a lot about growing in a Catholic school were kids were molested every week by priests. No one can talk against the church there. I am sure you followed last year’s news about the N. African priest who blackmailed and had sex with his victims after confessions and when they went to the police, their fellow Christians attacked them for not keeping it ‘inside the church’. This is not Christianity, but tribalism.

- Islam is a fast growing religion among non Arabs and not related to birth. Arabs, despite their higher than normal birth rate, moved from 70%, to 16.6% of total Muslims population today. References are FoxNews centre for statistics and similar western sources not the Saudi government.

- One of the reasons of its growth in western countries (you can refer to an article in the SMH titled “The lure of Allah”) that it is the closest faith to early Christianity before the institution of the Church and the Trinity doctrine took over in the 4th century. Please refer to a local article on how thousands of Aussies found peace in our faith.

As for references, please refer to credible British historians like G. Sale and W. Muir on their writings about Islam or the life of Prophet Mohammed.

On the humour side:

The site is titled “faith freedom” but it all about killing faith freedom! Any psychiatrist here? Maybe you should register: ‘faithfreedombutnotformuslims.com.au’!

Bye Aisha,

AK

Aisha
I just want to give you every encouragement in the world !
If you ever feel down about your predicament, be assured there are many like you, and that while you are not saying you have found Christ or anything like that, if you did decide to embrace Him as Savior, you will also experience His peace and Love,and most of all assurance.

I urge you to consider a listen to the testimony of Madame Bilquis Sheikh, a Noble Pakistani Muslim woman who 'Dared to call God Father'.
(do a google search)

If you decided then to withdraw, or move in a different direction, no one will hunt you down, hate you, or try to kill you. They would just pray affectionately for you. God looks for the lost sheep, picks it up, carries it back to the fold, he doesn't chase it with a big stick :) No one will 'fine' you for not going to church.

Given your name, even as a nick, your are brave speaking here. God bless you richly.

Always remember this "seek and you will find, knock and it shall be opened, ask, and you will receive"

Fellow Human,
a lot of what you said is quite true, about tribalism etc. But 'if anyone changes his deen, kill him' is straight from the mouth of your prophet :) and you know it.
blessings

I have never said that only in Islam do people commit atrocities and have sexual perversions. ALL creeds, faiths, cultures and ethnic groups are prone to it. The thing that makes it different for Islam is that the very prophet himself commits sexual and aggressive immorality. Jesus doesn’t do it, neither does Buddha. Only Muhammad both teaches AND commits murder and sex crimes in the ‘holy’ scriptures. The other difference is that in Islamic countries these sex crimes are hidden. In western democracies they are out in the open – and that to me is much healthier.

If, for example, we encouraged the muslim terrorists and molesting imams to go back to holy scriptures and there they found the role-model of a prophet and teacher who did not harm anyone or teach harming others, then there would be hope. They could use those non-violent teachings because there is huge power and influence behind this cultural source material. But unfortunately, unlike Christians and Buddhists, Muslims cannot return to their holy scriptures to preach to people to stop terrorism, because the very texts so easily back them up. The words of Theo Van Gogh’s killer in Holland yesterday were; “I acted purely in the name of Islam.”

THAT is the problem the world is up against.

You can change people’s behaviour, put them in jail or in therapy, but you can’t change what is written in Koran, and reforming such literal, abject and graphic violence in the book, to me, seems impossible.

David; thanks; I have read that book; I’m an admirer of Jesus, like Ghandi was. But I also admire Buddha 

Dear Aishia and Fellow Human

I checked out the www.faithfreedom etc web site.

I found it sickening. The big black motiff of a so called vagina made me sick! And the sentinemts expressed made me feel worse. I wanted to vomit.

I must be extremely naive. I found the site terrorising.

I do not understand how people of previous Muslim faith can use such abhorrent strategies.

Kalweb,
your posts remind me of when a Liberal party backbencher, is lined up to raise a question which his front benchers WANT to deal with, because it gives them an opportunity to speak about their choice of topic/policy. I doubt that you are 'naive'. Rather, you are either VERY naive and sheltered OR... you have a different reason.

There was NO vagina on that page, you could have done us the honesty of explaining that it was a picture of a fully veiled woman, who was 'regarded' as a sex object if any of her skin is showing.

By the way, you might have looked further at the site and you would have discovered why I am adamant that not even one small jot or tittle of sharia/Islamic law should EVER be imposed by stealth or otherwise on this country.

It was the decision by the Imams that if a mans wife leaves Islam, she should be EXECUTED if it is an 'Islamic Country'. That decision came from "Islam-qa.com" the quote was accurate.

http://www.faithfreedom.org/fatwa/apostasy50122.htm

Victoria

Ham Sandwich ban, a $400,000 legal battle from Waleed and his collusive gang against Christian pastors EXPOSING this king of thing, Burial laws changed, Stamp duty laws changed, all in the interests of the 'Sharia-ization of our legal system.
If you think I'm paranoid, xenophobic or just plain hateful, do a search on "Sharia in Canada" where you will find the Islamic community lobbied for and SUCEEDED in gaining approval to use Sharia law on Muslims (to a limited degree)

52 people murdered/700 injured in London by HOME grown Islamists it would appear. What is it, which takes young teenage boys from 'normal teenager' to 'suicide bomber' ? well, you should just read all of my posts, and try to ignore the criticisms from well meaning kind hearted Aussies who are perhaps as naive as you.

By the way, my company is involved with the Anti Terrorism section of the police, we make 'something' for them, perhaps I have some insights of which you and others are not aware.

keep going, guys. this is great. we should reach a century of comments soon! wow. my first century ...

BD - "By the way, my company is involved with the Anti Terrorism section of the police, we make 'something' for them, perhaps I have some insights of which you and others are not aware."

You really like to win don't you? If villifying other religions or atheists doesn't work now you are claiming that you know something the rest of us don't. I believe that like I believe in virgin births.

I have checked out that faithfreedom website - not exactly an objective and impartial critique of Islam.

As others have stated, other religions have equally violent, sexist and intolerant writings. You are only adding to the problem - how about working together (this means tolerating other religions and atheists) to decry terrorism and determine the true cause of such aberrant behaviour. Suicide terrorism is not a normal human response, nor is it about belief in religion - it is about power. Like most extreme crimes.

Aisha “You need the whole story; not just a quote here and there” – this point was pre-answered in my statement

Particularly “measured by how they respond to what they read – not for reading ancient words themselves,”

And on that matter as Fellow-Human rightly points out, certain groups claiming to be Christians have instituted the wholesale and systematic sodomy of young boys and girls for centuries – so which part of your philosophy of “You need the whole story” do you want to include those practices in?

Then “but you can’t change what is written in Koran, and reforming such literal, abject and graphic violence in the book, to me, seems impossible.”

If I want to read Mien Kampf, it does not make me a fascist.
If I read Das Kapital it does not make me a communist.
If I read the Koran it does not make me a Muslim,
Reading the torah does not bestow jewishness upon me and
Anyone reading the Bible does not imply they are actually Christian.

What makes anyone a Fascist, Communist, Muslim, Jew or Christian is how they act.

What is written is historic, God forbid we should have a censor who decides what we can or cannot read for the social good – The fascists did that and had books BBQ in Berlin in 1930s - Communists tried that – Pasternac and Solzhenitsyn would tell you about it. Certain western religious zealots these days do it by trying to get films and pieces of “art” (just another form of media like books) banned because they offend their version of “faith”

Again, the difference between a "righteous" and a "not-so-righteous" person lies in their respect and absence of bigotry for those who hold a faith different to their own and such respect is best shown by TOLERANCE of such dissenting views.

“Tolerance” is not to be found in what we read – it is manifest in how we behave and respond to what we read.

Kalweb,

I keep the comment on the site you mentioned to myself.
Mind you, the only thing that really puzzles me is why all these ‘previously Muslims but saw the light’ didn’t change their Muslims names? Why are they still Aly, Mohamed and Aisha?
If they had a sense of honesty or objectivity, maybe they should have mentioned that Muslim women in the Tunisian parliament just reached 11.5% of total parliament members which is higher than most EU countries including La France de mon enfance! Apologies to Enrico.
Anyway, at least I know that they hate all Muslims ‘equally’.

BD,

I have no comments on your prejudice and responded to your comment on “Nutbags, McCarthysm, etc..” yes there is terrorism and crimes and yes they use Islam as their hanger. The most effective way to get rid of terrorism is to encourage, empower and support moderate Muslims, not by insulting the faith with perverse websites.

Aisha,

Enjoy the ‘spiritual tyre kicking’ but don’t insult others beliefs.
Your reference to V Gogh confirms my view on tribalism: The guy made a fakementary (apologies for linguistics experts) calling “all Muslims are goat fu…ers”. Now, go to Texas, walk into a pub and call “all Texans are goat fu..ers” whatever piece will be left of you can come and tell us what happened! PS: Texans are not Muslims.
I have no problem with your ignorance of Islam and its teachings; all I am asking is do not hold me accountable for your ignorance.

Col Rouge,

“What makes anyone a Fascist, Communist, Muslim, Jew or Christian is how they act”
You get my vote for the best statement on this thread so far.

AK

I think this thread has gone to it’s final end. As always the fundamentalists will not accept that ‘different’ doesn’t mean ‘wrong’. How arrogant can a Christian be? For a religion that preaches tolerance and understanding, it is the only religion I know of that actively attempts to convert people’s ideas on the subject. Ironic yes?

BD- it is pure hubris to outright state that Christianity is the ONLY right religion. Yes, your faith may give you this certainty but it is not something you can ever substantiate. Claim whatever scripture you wish, highlight whatever dubious historical reference, compare with the ‘faults’ of any other belief system and you still have one thing – your faith versus another. How is that different from anyone else’s faith and belief? That you have seen the light and others haven’t? I have heard that from the mouths of a few mentally ill too. As has been stated repeatedly by others – all you do is give others of any faith reason to doubt your faith due to your fanaticism (yes that is how it appears).

At least Aisha has the apparent ability to admire other faiths (has he settled on any one faith or is he still searching? Or is he happy to believe an amalgam?).

Now ON TOPIC – Ifran appears to have made a GENUINE attempt to show that Islam wants peace and coexistence by damning the bombings in London. If other Muslims do this, why do they have to be subversive, dishonest and attempting to placate us? If it were as you see their faith, they would be heretics. Yet in other threads when people discuss alternative Christian ideology, it’s modern thinking or such (e.g. Sells ‘new’ interpretation of Christianity). Ifran wants peace and co-existence. Isn’t that all that matters?

As for your answer to my question of Ghandi – nicely ducked! You and I don’t know what God will judge but I am interested in what you BELIEVE will occur. Will Ghandi be saved according to your doctrine? He wasn’t a believer in the Christian faith. Hhmmmm?

A year ago I told my kids (2 of 3 are very liberal and think I am somewhat mad) that in 5 years Europe would explode because of racial and religious tensions. I see no reason to change that projection. Probably in one or two years we will see American style riots in some European cities, probably sparked by some police incident. This is somewhat ironic because I remember conversations back in the 70s with Europeans; they were lecturing me on American racial intolerance because of our “black” problem (Hey, my wife is black). Anyway, in about 3 to 4 years there will be some horrible event that makes the London bombing look like a picnic. In 4 to 5 years somebody in Europe will stand up and said “Enough” to Muslim immigration and will use all these tragic events for political capital. He will demand integration or departure. Only the radicals on both sides will gain with this, but common people will be ‘forced’ to take sides. The ‘old’ Europeans will probably win (for lack of a better term), if for no other reason than population demographics. At this point everything fades and is unclear, but I think it will not be a good time for good people. I sometimes wonder if the new Pope would be a major player in all this.

Australia and the US will not be involved directly at this time, because of smaller Muslim polulations. Islam will not and cannot change. The hate and anger in the Muslim soul can only be healed by Muslim's themselves, and they are in denial. Sad.

Kactuz

BD - I do not know anything about Islam or the Muslim faith. I have been using this forum and the Nutbags forum to try and get some sort of understanding of such complex issues. I don't have a hidden agenda - simply, I find it very confusing and very difficult to understand.

Fello Human has been very helpful in answering some of my questions and he has not passed judgement on my ignorance.

As a person of Christian heritage, in this world of fear and terror, I am trying to get a sensible grasp of other cultures and religions. I think this imperative, given that there are so many people of Islamic faith in this country. I want to be able to give moderate Muslims a fair go - and I want to learn how to cope with extremists.

A few more words...
Aisha, you must have a sister named Kim. She often posts at Bjornsblog at
http://blog.bearstrong.net/001624.html#comments
and she is one of my favorite people.

Some thoughts on immigration. The rules have changed. When massive immigration to the West started in the 1960/70s people were still thinking in 19th and early 20th century terms. People moved and cut ties with the old country and with their families left behind. You did not return, you had a hard time even communicating with the old country. You had to assimulate to survive. This was the "melting pot". (I have spent 5 weeks on a freighter immigrating, I know. I remember 30-40 day letters one-way.)

Times are different. People can immigrate and not integrate. People need not become part of a culture. Modern technology and modern "multicultural" theory facilitate and support the possibility of totally different cultures living side by side, in a way unheard of before. The old rules don't apply. An immigrant can eat his own food, work in his sub-culture, marry people brought in from his old country and even listen to hate speech from his favorite Imam in Arabia. The Welfare state will even support him if he chooses not to work, and he now has rights and respect he never even imagined. In theory it should work, except he has problems and he will not accept the values of other groups. He has to blame somebody, and its everybody but him. This is why conflict is inevitable. Muslims cannot accept Western values of tolerance and free speech and still be Muslims.

Any country accepting Muslim immigration is insane. The fact that politicians and PC educators support this false multiculturalism almosts makes me believe they actually want to destroy our society. I find that theory hard to believe, but...

That's it.... Kactuz signing off

Col rouge, are you coming down with something? That was a lovely post.

Kactuz - "The hate and anger in the Muslim soul can only be healed by Muslim's themselves"

Kactuz are you actually claiming that ALL muslims are full of hate and anger? If so, then you are just as much to blame for inciting hatred as any other religious lunatic fringe, such as Ku Klux Klan, IRA, fundamentalist christians and so on....

And why do people like you & BD incite hatred and then try to qualify yourselves by saying oh BTW I'm married to an Asian/dark skinned person. I'm part Jewish I was married to a German - and he used to physically abuse me. Yet he probably would say 'I'm not anti-semitic I'm married to a Jew'.

Trinity, you are the only one making any sense at this point in time besides the author. Some of these postings are just anti ranti.

Trinity, I only mentioned wife’s race because it was relevant to the issue. Who care! No, there are lots of great Muslims, and some even have a sense of humor. I make it a hobby to observe others. I watch Islam closely (because it is a major problem!), and Brazil (I love it!), the World Ecominic Forum (personal reasons) and even US politics (hopeless!).

I make it my business to read Islamic sites (Altmuslim.com is the best!), and well as Islamonline, Cair-net, Alinaam (try
http://www.alinaam.org.za/misc/STATUES.HTM) and many others. I even read the Quran (always the 8 translation site at http://quranbrowser.com/) . Lately I have concentrated on Muslim blogs. I actually enjoy some of them immensely. Maybe not the more militant ones (http://www.arrihlah.blogspot.com/), but some are great! For example Saudi jeans (http://saudijeans.blogspot.com/) is great, with lots of small news about life at the heart of Islam. Other common views are provided by http://www.blogistan.co.uk/blog, http://egyptianperson.blogspot.com, http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com, http://www.jadedsaudi.blogspot.com, and http://classic-diva.blogspot.com, and http://sentiments.blog-city.com. I love the irony od a person takes risk just to get a photo of men and women lining up TOGETHER at McDonalds.- oh horror (http://farahssowaleef.blogspot.com/2005/07/kudos-to-new-wave-of-saudi-mavericks.html). There are bloggers that do great things in everyday life (http://www.20six.co.uk/awblogger) and comment of very human issues such as http://blog.somah.com/detail.php?id=612) and even http://q8gal.blogspot.com.

I love the humor of big Pharaoh (http://bigpharaoh.blogspot.com/). Check out his photos of what is happening to women in Egypt. The fact is that Arabs and Muslims are the same as us. Check out the lady (an American in Arabia) and her description of the perverts that wonder around in shops. (http://nzinghas.blogspot.com/2005_05_01_nzinghas_archive.html) . The fact is that I love the stories about the idiots called “Religious Police” (reminds of comedy shows) and how kids in Arabia make monkeys out of them, exchanging phones and meeting right under their eyes. You always find the local issues (women driving is big!), family issues (shopping, traffic, dress) or the more tragic ones (violence, rape, etc… )

Continuing….

So what I am trying to tell you Muslim folks is that I don’t hate you! (I don’t know about the others here!). You may even consider me a friend (Ha, right!). I try to be informed and consider the facts. If I have a problem with Islam (I do) it is because Islam is problematic. If I tell you that things need to change in the Muslim world for Islam to solve its ‘quote’ PR ‘unquote’ problem, it is because I think that is the only way things are going to get better.

Listen carefully. Muslims condemning violence by Muslims is not working. Duhhh.. Muslims have been condemning violence in the name of Islam for years. And what are the results?
1. Muslims condemn violence, violence continues.
2. Nobody believes Muslims. (see item 1)

You have to try something different! Plan A is not working! Does that make sense? Try condemning the inequality and discrimination that exists in all the Muslim world. Make them change the face of Islam. Let women drive and vote. Abolish and/or criminalize violence against women. End discrimination against other religions and foreign workers. Let Other religions preach and sing and dance in the streets of Arabia, Egypt, Iran, Libya, etc… Try it! That is my plan B. It won’t hurt! It can’t make things any worse. Or else suffer the consequences of doing nothing (but the same old things that haven’t worked).

This is old Kactuz signing off…

Irfan
I wonder if the comparatively large responses may have something to do with your having become a "model ethnic" in this instance - urging (possibly) fellow muslims to do the "right thing". And could it be that ethnics should not really meddle with mainstream issues like unfair dismissal laws?

I agree with one poster that not only Muslims should stand up and be counted. We all should.

The reverse side of that coin is that by calling on "moderate muslims" to do the right thing you may be unwittingly branding all muslims, most of whom would in all likelihood be non-political, as is the case with most people in western nations.(By the way today Bob Carr in London called on Muslim leaders in Australia to seek out the extremist elements amongst them. From London!! Was he trying to outdo John Howard, I wonder.)

But sanctimonious urgeings will do not a great deal of good in the long run. As one other poster asked: why have we not talked about the reasons why these people do these wretched things? Surely it can't be just the Koran.

chek

kactuz and BOAZ_David,
Thanks for your continuing apologetics and defense of our values influenced by Christian thought. Australia was never so united as a Nation than in the 1940 - 50's as we had just survived a war. The primary value of that time was national survival, we were poor but we were free of a totalitarian idiology. We each need to be free to make personal choices rather than have religious police dictating our lives; what clothes we wear, what music we listen to etc.

Kactuz, I love you for the sake of Allah. Now will you allow the love of Allah's Messiah, Jesus Christ, to remove the hate from your heart toward me?

Kactuz; unlike the far more forgiving Irfan, I think your last post was simply a waste of space.

Chek agree with your last post esp. "The reverse side of that coin is that by calling on "moderate muslims" to do the right thing you may be unwittingly branding all muslims, most of whom would in all likelihood be non-political, as is the case with most people in western nations."

With that in mind I agree that all (regardless of religious POV) should stand united in the face of terrorism. I agree this psychopathic behaviour is not primarily driven by the Koran - I believe it all gets back to power - who has it and who wants it.

I am sure that there are Christians who would like to work with Muslims in ending this pointless violence - I just wish they were on this forum - the extremists are simply fostering further hatred and achieving nothing but contempt.

Xena
working with Muslims to end the terror... is what I'm doing. Bringing Ash and Irfan face to face with the incontrovertable essense of their own faith in this area.

Oh.. dont forget to give the contextual information about your 'cheap shot' post about Old Testament events referred to in your other post please. Grabbing the nearest verse you could find which contained the term "kill them" was rather abysmal in debate methodology.

Ash claimed I have a double standard and cannot accept the same contextual approach in my use of the Quran, well, 'watch and learn' because its all there, and will appear in a post later today or tomorrow. (in fact I gave it in 'point form' previously but this seems to have been neglected or ignored, so I'll go into more specific detail next time.

Xena, I understand your desire to foster good relations between different faiths, and I support this, but doesn't it raise a few tiny questions in your mind that the only faith which is engaged in violence against others ( "as" a faith, not as a foreign policy of a country) is Islam. ? This should have the red flags waving faster than the latest batch of free smileys.

Perhaps its my rather passionate approach which is putting you off looking at facts. Ok, sorry if it has, but put that aside, and ask "Where does the truth (if any) sit in all that Boaz is saying". Its all verifiable, and subject to clear thinking scrutiny.

I welcome your references to Biblical events, truly, but they are a different discussion, these threads are about Islam and its relationship to violent attacks on Western targets.

So, continue to enjoy your weekend, and be thankful no one will look sideways with condemnation at you for not wearing a Hijab or for having the temerity to think your word/testimony is as good as a mans and that your hubby is not authorized to 'beat you lightly' by his Holy book (except during Ramadan of course, no wife smacking during that month....:)

Ifran,
Be assured we believe in your integrity to speak out honestly against acts of violence done against innocent people in the name of Allah. We admire your courage and concern - we do not hate you.

However the constant alluding to the concept that Christians "hate us" is an attempt to silence difference by those posting exposing material on this forum. Expressing difference is not hate it can be love, a parent who corrects a child can be accused by the child of hate, but the parent it is motivated by love. The constant call of, "You hate me" is an emotional reaction and an attempt to remove the argument from the basis of the philosophy that influences young men to detonate bombs in the name of Allah among innocent travellers.

It is evident that even normal moderate Muslim youth will seek this achievement in the hope of the advancement of jihad. They obviously believe these unknown travellers deserve to die with them, in some agenda to terrorise or judge the dead, the maimed and their families in the name of Allah; otherwise they would not cry to Allah as they die. We must recognise moderate Muslim cells harbour persons willing to commit acts of criminal violence, even when not trained in Afganistan by Osama Bin Laden.

We must identify what is motivating these youth, not pretend it is a phycotic disturbance. It is brainwashing and indoctrination, so who is doing this?

"..be thankful no one will look sideways with condemnation at you for not wearing a Hijab or for having the temerity to think your word/testimony is as good as a mans and that your hubby is not authorized to 'beat you lightly' by his Holy book (except during Ramadan of course, no wife smacking during that month....:)"

BD - DO NOT continue to insult my intelligence with your sancitmonious prattle. "hubby" indeed - you presume too much.

"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father."
Jesus tells Mary Magdalene not to touch him because he hasn't yet ascended -- as if the touch of a woman would defile him and somehow prevent him from ascending into heaven.One wonders why he insisted that Thomas touch him later that evening and why he permitted his apostles to touch him and hold him by the feet before his ascension.

The natural use of the woman"
Paul explains that "the natural use" of women is to act as sexual objects for the pleasure of men.

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.

11:5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. (11:5-6)
"If the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn."
If a woman refuses to cover her head in church, then her head must be shaved.

11:6 For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered.

11:7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. (11:7-9)

MEN ARE MADE IN THE IMAGE OF GOD; WOMEN IN THE IMAGE OF MEN. WOMEN WERE CREATED FROM AND FOR MEN.

And so on..............

This has got more bollocks in it than a spanish bullring with Ernest Hemingway. Let's not fine tune it so much that we have every Muslim, Christian having to run around and be responsble, ad nauseum that we lose sight of it. We are in a world where, again, with politics and religion relentlessly muddying the waters, the thing turns on its head and gets people swept up in it. It's great when it comes to debate, but horrible when it comes to the point where you have to (suicide) bomb to make your point. To pontificate endlessly on what causes it (every model and its sum is what we've come to.) is rather pointless. Whilst the history of how we've come to this is interesting and important (contexturally). How on earth can we get out of it? To the next step where there is some give? The last few days posts have all been about the Koran vs Christian etc. Which what keeps the books going. I find it interesting that humanity can't move forward without a script.

Spot on Di - totally fed up with the extreme christians though. Will bite my tongue in future and try to keep to the thread.

Perhaps this christians vs muslims is what the terrorists want to achieve, if so they have succeeded. To our shame.

agree with this article completely. Therefore delighted that this is exactly what one prominent umbrella group has done:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/4694441.stm

"Whoever kills a human being ... then it is as though he has killed all mankind; and whoever saves a human life it is as though he had saved all mankind."

Thanks for the link Alex. I found the above quote from the Koran there. we all should pay attention.

Keep going, people! I would like to have my first double-century!!

Xena

if you can at one moment post the words of Herman Goering referring to Hitler as 'Savior of Germany'

then knowing full well why he was NOT the person Goering said he was, and the reasons...

Then, you can post "If you kill one man..etc" from the Quran

and WILLFULLY ignore "He chopped off their hands and feet, gouged out their eyes, and left them to die in the desert" (Hadith Bukhari)

Which is the SAME person who authored the verse you quoted above about 'if a man kills... etc in the Quran. So, how brilliant do you have to be, to recognize that he is condemning himSELF with that, or, he is simply making it up as he goes.... (food for thought)

If you can also ignore the mass killings of the Banu Qurayza (600-900 men and boys)

and speak with 'warm affection' for this faith, and its founder,
then I don't know what planet or stream of history you are from, but it sure isn't the one which most people are in.

You are either intellectually dishonest, maliciously selecting 'sugar' to coat the truth, or, you just plain 'don't get it' about the real world which has just seen 56 dead bodies in London.

Do deny Adolph the 'warm affection' you so easily grant to Mohammed would have to be the all time most spectacular example of ignorance and dishonesty that I've come across for a long long time.

But then, perhaps you speak from some lingering deep seated bitterness towards Christ, or 'the church' I have no idea, please enlighten me. The psychology of denial and sympathy you demonstrate would make a very good case study for a psychology student. This is especially true when one considers the things this man said about women, and you being one.

If you have isses with 'The church' or 'me' or Christ, thats cool, give your best/worst, vent your spleen, I don't mind :) then we can have a cuppa, but PLEASE, don't reject factual historical accounts of real events from Islamic sources about the founder of Islam

BD,

I responded to your ‘fundamentalist sources on the story above and also published a response to your newly discovered one on ‘Nutbags .."and other threads.

So now Xena have a ‘deep seated bitterness’ with the church? Maybe you should ask yourself why all what you do 24 x 7 is contributing solely to Muslims bashing websites?

As for ‘examples of ignorance and dishonesty’, please review all your publishing and my responses to them:
- You launch a cheap shot on Islam and Muslims using a mix of half truth/ questionable source/ interpretation.
- You publish it hoping for ‘ignorant Muslims’ or naïve aussies and you know it.
- You get caught red handed when I respond with the context or the full story (which you knew from before). Rather than acknowledge, you dive in and dig another half story from somewhere.
- You do that on all the Muslims bashing websites.

I think neither Xena nor anyone have issues here but yourself. If you go and get a $10 book on NLP, you will know those who accuse others of anything are usually sending messages to themselves!.

BTW, for a missionary, you can do a better job following Jesus teachings. I studied them in the Koran and Bible and you are far from it.

Salam / Peace,

AK

Ash... points of order.

1/ I am NOT in some book selling thing, I did find a 'David Boaz' on the net. Its NOT me.

2/ I have not posted THOUSANDS of posts to 'Muslim bashing' web sites unless you consider "IslamicSydney" such a site and it might be 10s But don't admit you said that at the Lakemba mosque or they might 'hurt' you :)

3/ You have not responded with 'context'. You have responded with SPIN.
You continually give 'Islam teaches', rather than admitting the factual or non factual nature of my posts.
The psychology of your response is this ->

“I believe in Islam (first), I do not question its founder (which should be first in all belief systems), therefore all in Islam is good and right”

4/ Half Truths. I deny that I post 'half' truths. I was wrong about the death penalty for insulting the prophet, and have freely and happily admitted this on the other thread. I reject 'half truths' in other matters. My sources are ISLAMIC .. the “Muslim Students Association” for the Hadith of Bhukari and Muslim etc.

I claimed the Koran 'villifes' Christians, calling them ‘wicked’ -you gave me 'spin'

In ‘your’ version of Islam they are just ‘Ungrateful’ why don’t we test that with the following :)

Ok.. now its your turn :) here are 4 translations of the text, from Picthal and 3 Muslim translators.

5.72 I said 'wicked'

Yusuf Ali "wrong doers"
Picthall "Wicked"
Shakir "Unjust"
Khalifa "Wicked"

Hmm.. I can’t find ‘ungrateful’ in any of them.

Now, I give you facts, please don't respond with 'spin' :)

Forgive me if I seem ‘smug and arrogant’ (as JustDan described me) -the “flesh” is very skilful in turning our good intentions into something dark, but to quote your holy book “God is all knowing, wise” At least on that we can agree :)
Ash, I appreciate and understand that Islam is ‘your religion’ but I contend that ‘your’ brand is different from the ‘real’ Islam. Yours is gentle, tame, friendly, and congenial, real Islam is not.

Boaz-o, I appreciate and understand that Christianity is ‘your religion’ but I contend that ‘your’ brand is different from the ‘real’ Christianity. Yours is aggressive, obnoxious, competitive and antagonistic, real Christianity is not.

Dear Irfan

Well mate, you have finally had your wish granted! Press reveals that some 500 Muslim Clerics have united in London and spoken out against the 7/7 bombings. But what will this do Irfan? What positive outcomes do you predict for the ordinary every-day person (of whatever religious thrust)?

I visited your Ozzie-Mozzie site (spelling? sorry). Your recent post really moved me. My goodness you are very frustrated with your own people - and no wonder! Where do you get support?

Why do people of Muslim faith call themselves Muslim Australians? Surely they are Ausralian people of Muslim faith? I do not call myself a C of E Australian! I am an Australian first!

Peace to you in your time of frustration
And chin up to all at this bloody awful time
Kay

Garra,
I had a long spiel for BD, tired as I am of his prattle. But your comment hit the nail on the head. You do have a way with words. Well done.

As for you BD, your blindness to your own arrogance is quite amazing. So you spent some time in a Muslim country? So you ‘experienced’ the Muslim faith. And that makes you an expert how? Have you studied it as hard and with as much open heart passion as one of Islamic faith? I’d think not. You start from a point of view and everything you consider from there is tainted. We aren’t ignorant of your position. But your credibility is nothing. You are biased, simple. What you call facts and correct about the Bible (your Holy book) is also SPIN.

Xena,
Be assured that religious fever is not indicative of all religious faiths. I hold to Christian beliefs (more because it’s what I’m comfortable with than anything else – I’d consider spirituality a non-Dogmatic thing myself) but freely accept that others see different. I see no problem with each individual choosing their path of belief (or not to believe). I was taught by my church that the actions of an individual are much more important and acceptance/tolerance are the only keys to heaven (if it exists!). I would ignore the comments from the far right. They only add to their own demise (hopefully sooner than later).

Irfan… You think I hate you, do you? All I know about you is what is what you write, and there is nothing there for me to hate you. Besides, hate is hard work. If you want to find hate, look at Muslim web sites or the Imans throughout the Islamic world. Try to understand that if a person does not agree with Islam and argues against it as a belief, it is not hate. This is called “freedom of speech” because of “differences of opinion”.

What I feel towards Muslims can best be described as “despair”. As for Islam, the proper word would be “contempt”. I dislike it as a belief; but even that is not the problem. The issue is not bad theology but that Islam is dangerous to the health of progressive societies. Have you ever asked yourself what is wrong with Islam? Why do Muslims have so many problems other groups or religions don’t seem to have? Google “Muslims” “Europe” and “crime” or “rape” or substitute any other country. Have you ever seen a Buddhist having to say “Buddhism is a religion of peace”? Why is crime among Hindu immigrants a small fraction of that among Muslims in England? Do you ever wonder why so many Muslims want out of Islamic countries? Remember those poor 400 souls that drowned off Australia several years ago… They were from every Islamic country on the map. Tell me, Irfan, do you have a clue?

As Muslim move to the West they use our freedoms to subvert our institutions. I quote Tony Parkinson (The Age):

“The compact under multiculturalism is that each community within a society must have the freedom to sustain its own identity, traditions and culture. But there is a quid pro quo and that involves universal acceptance of a broad system of shared values…. Multiculturalism is at a moment of truth. The drift from melting-pot altruism into salad-bowl separatism has morphed into something more sinister: the existence within Western cultures of a hostile religious sect that renounces absolutely the principles on which our societies are structured.”

(Continuing…)

All I ask is equality and honesty. I ask nothing from Muslims that I don’t ask of myself. I want Muslims to have the same rights as I have. You have the right to speak out, so I have the right to say things that you may not like. I want non-Muslims and women and other groups to have exactly the same rights as Muslims do in Islamic dominated societies - and freedom and democracy would be nice too. However, don’t hold your breath. Islam is oppressive by nature and cannot accept the notions of equality and freedom of conscience. Therefore, Muslims practice hypocrisy on a grand scale. (No compulsion in religion, but we get to kill you if you leave Islam!) . I have taken a hard look at Islam and it is a fragile illusion. The Quran is a mess of contradictions and superstitions.

Under no circumstances would I ever follow a man like Mohammed. Have you really considered the life of this man? Can you honestly look at his life and say that he is anything but a hypocrite. Tell me, how can you follow a person does this? (see verse 261 at http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html). To a normal human being this one reference would be enough to end all discussion. But no, Muslims are morally blind. So I guess there is no reason to drag in references (written by Muslims themselves) to slavery, executions, sexual misconduct, special rules for himself, inaccuracies in the Koran, the issues of abrogation, etc… I could write about each of these trespasses, by why bother? These don’t matter because Muslim have faith – blind, stupid faith (which is not against the law) and they refuse to see the obvious.

Irfan, let’s try a little experiment. Read the verse mentioned above (verse 261) and tell me if the person who did that is a good man. Just say ‘yes’ or ‘no.’ You don’t have to respond to anything else here, just write one of two words: Yes or No. Can you do it?

Kactuz

Kaz,
look at the detail. Yes they were killed. They committed murder. Hhhmmm.... seems a few Christian countries do that to. Yes, they were tortured. And about that time (or near enough) Christians tortured a heck of a lot of people during a little incident called the Inquisition. Then there were the Salem witch hunts. Seems Christianity forgets it's past and focuses on that of others. Would Muslims do exactly the same thing today as the writings say? Another and probably more pertinent question. Over to you Ifran...

BD you state:

>>You are either intellectually dishonest, maliciously selecting 'sugar' to coat the truth, or, you just plain 'don't get it' about the real world which has just seen 56 dead bodies in London.>>

Unfortunately BD, it is you who doesn’t get it.

I made the quotes I have in a vain effort to reveal to you the hypocritical nature of your posts.

I am not a religious scholar; however I know enough to find the worst of Christianity (praise be to Google). I don’t need to locate the worst of Islam – you have so successfully made that your obsession.

I do not grant any religion ‘warm affection’ that you claim. I respond to those in kind. All I receive from you and Philo is derogatory rude, dismissiveness. Not one poster who claims to be Islamic has attempted to deride me, even when I have made it abundantly clear that I am an atheist.

All I have done is prove what many people already know is that good and bad can be found in all religions. Even in the philosophy of Buddhism – although in a competition on atrocities it ranks way below Christianity, Islam, Hinduism and a few non religious ‘isms’ such as fascism and communism.

I believe a person’s (please note non gender specific) actions reveals the truth of that person. BD a campaign of unceasing malignment of Islam clearly reveals your worth. If there is a Jesus, then he must weep for you.

continued

Continued

BD you state

>>But then, perhaps you speak from some lingering deep seated bitterness towards Christ, or 'the church' I have no idea, please enlighten me. The psychology of denial and sympathy you demonstrate would make a very good case study for a psychology student. This is especially true when one considers the things this man said about women, and you being one.<<

Interesting point BD, here’s what the Christian god has to say about women:

“There are, however, areas in which God's plan for women differs from that for men. In the family, God has appointed man to be the head (Ephesians 5:23). Man is to provide for the physical and spiritual needs of his wife and children (Genesis 3:17-19; 1 Timothy 5:8; Ephesians 6:4). Women have a special place in God's plan that men do not have. Women are to be helpers to their husbands, teachers of their children and keepers of the home ( Genesis 3:16; Ephesians 5:22-24; Titus 2:4,5). Men and women are different physically and psychologically. The place that God has appointed for each best suits them as God made them.”

My PLACE is where ever I want it to be.

You patronising little man, because you lack the wit to follow the thread of my posts you claim that I would make an interesting study for a psychology student. Words fail me here. You are condemned by your own misogyny.

BD you state:

>> PLEASE, don't reject factual historical accounts of real events from Islamic sources about the founder of Islam<<

No more than I will reject the factual historical accounts of real events from Christian sources about the nature of Christianity.

Now BD buy a very big mirror and take a good hard look at yourself.

BD,

Regarding Koran offending your belief;

Monotheism: “God is one, no Idols” is the spine, the pillar, the first and second commandment of all Abrahamic religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam.

"For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled ( Law of Moses). Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:18-19.
"And I (Jesus) have come confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful for you part of that which was forbidden upon you. And I have come to you with a sign from your Lord so seek refuge in Allah and obey me"
Quran (3):50
Above statements are from the Bible and the Quoran. They are not meant to be offensive but rather make you think and chose a position that gives a meaning to your life. The difference between Islam and Christianity is how do we interpret the character of Jesus: if you believe God is one, Jesus is his miracle, word and the messiah then you are a Muslim. If you believe in the original sin, sacrifice, Paul teachings on God, Son and Holy spirit then you are a Christian. To every person one choice will make more sense than the other. I do not judge and for info, I buy golden crosses to some of my Christian friends for birthdays, new born babies, etc..
Re CTF (again)
Irfan and myself said the same thing: it was not an invitation to love. It was an invitation to look at Muslims as ‘lost souls in the forest’ (using the CTF pastor language) and ‘love’ them until they convert This will be my position on Muslim who will act in the same manner.
As for Shariah laws, see my next posting
Peace,
AK

BD,

1. About Shariah in general:
The punitive laws are only a small fraction of the Shariah law for muslims. The punitive legislation is supposed to be preventive/ deterrent from commtting the crime. While cutting off the hand of the thief was the only valid option 15 centuries ago, I am still of the view that the contextual hard sentence is better than soft sentence as a deterrent and I still support death sentence in the case of child rape, murder, etc…
Having said that, two things a well read person like you should admit to:
- Death sentence: the jury in murder cases are the family of the victim. They have to chose wether they spare the life of the killer or only seek compensation or forgive.
- Early Caliph Omar have actually suspended the implementation of all these laws in the time of famine and drought “hungry people are likely to steal”.

2. Now to your point on Muslims want to force the shariah:
- Nowhere have I seen or heard of Muslims who want to implement the punitive laws. All I read / hear from other muslims is the within the context of civil matters, divorce, custody, inheritance because all of that is defined for Muslims. It is similar to us accommodating Jews not to work on the Sabt (Sabbbath) by automating the pedestrian traffic light function so they don’t push the button.
- You ignore the fact that most Muslim countries apply the Christian Shariah (shariah means law) for Christian minorities in the civil matters. For example, Ehyptian Christians have no divorce (even if adultery is committed) and if they go to normal courts the cases gets dismissed and have to go to Christian religious court. To the limit that some cases have to convert to Islam ‘on paper’ so the priest separates the wife from her cheating husband after a decade of adultery.

If some Muslims want to apply some parts of the Shariah, this should not be read as disrespect of local laws. Only lawyers will be out of business!

AK

Referring to the article again, bang, bang, bang on the door babies! Now that we've got all the religious (she said, he meant stuff) out of the way, (thank god it's not a dinner party), where do we stand in this very day and age about whether London Muslims should stand, especially in the fallout reporting since this article was posted. Should garden variety muslims have to march and publicly condemn or not? Post A without hyperlinks or justifications for YES. Post B without hyperlinks or justifications for NO. Irfan, forget about going for a double century, that's just so Warnie! And does nothing for your article. I await the alphabet.
PS Xena, I know I shouldn't single you out but dammit! your posts are always so succinct.

Di,
Have to agree with you, brevity only tells half the story; I await with interest a balanced post on what Biblical references are exhortations toward men. Is this the problem with atheist spinster feminists, can they present social balance? Control, control, control! Thank God for graceous and supportive wives!

Deport the clerics of hate: sheik
The Australian, Trudy Harris and Cameron Stewart, July 20, 2005 - PAGE 1.
"THE country's highest-profile Islamic leader has called for the deportation of clerics who preach violence, as part of a push to rid Australia of the "disease" of fundamentalism.
Sheik Taj Din al-Hilali compared the spread of Islamic fundamentalism in Australia to AIDS, and said he and other moderate clerics across the country must take firm steps to win the hearts and minds of impressionable young Muslims. "They are a disease like AIDS and you can't cure them with Panadol," Sheik Hilali said of radical clerics. In some of the strongest public comments yet by a senior Islamic figure in Australia, Sheik Hilali also told The Australian the sale of Islamic literature preaching hatred or violence should be banned. But the call was flatly rejected yesterday by Australia's most senior fundamentalist Islamic cleric, Sheik Mohammed Omran. "Australia is a free country and should allow all books to be sold here," Sheik Omran said. He claimed there were no Islamic clerics in Australia guilty of inciting hatred. "We do not have clerics who incite hatred here so there is no point raising the issue of deporting clerics who incite hatred because such clerics do not exist in Australia....."
At http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5744,15988222%255E601,00.htm

Of course a yes/no response isn't going to happen Di, there are many possible reasons and the binary option strips the diverse meanings:

Yes, failure to do so is tacit support for terrorism.
Yes, they are part of Islam and have an obligation to reform it.
Yes, for pragmatic reasons.
No, because if applied generally moderates throughout the world would never find the time to eat, drink or sleep.
No, they're not responsible for the actions of others.

Deuc, awesome summary. I'm with you on this both ways.

Nobody should have to explain themselves because of the actions of others but sometimes it makes really good sense to do so.

R0bert

So Deuc, is that a yes or a no or a binary? Philo, get over yourself about spinster feminists/wives. Don't you think this particlart forum deserves a vote either or to sum it up rather than disappearing into the too tired basket? Considering all the input. Let's lean on our dominoes here and come to a concise decision!

Given what is happening now, I don't think this thread is going to end up in the basket just yet.

If you really want an answer though, without me telling you why, then here it is:

"Should garden variety muslims have to march and publicly condemn or not?"

No.

I do not believe morally responsible persons have to bear the guilt of their brothers. However someone must speak up to show that things are being done to change the behaviour within the family, and that degenerate brothers must show sincere evidence they are conforming to the family values and traditions. If the basis of values and traditions of the family violate other families rights then the whole family must be brought into line by the larger society. Educate, assimilate, cooperate otherwise violence will continue. No one wants a violent family next door that continually undermines their security, peace, and wellbeing. We either ostracise, remove, or attempt to modify their behaviour from within their motivating / philosophical basis. This is done with good intention by education; or threat by the imposition of penalty.

Really a damn shame!

Why are Muslims so quiet when it comes to condemning terrorism in their name?

Could it be that most Muslims are closet Wahhabi thugs?

Could it be that most Muslims are not sure whether Islam teaches love or hate?

Could it be that most Muslims are only in Islam because they want to see virgins in the next life?

Or that they want to be plain and simple monotheists who dislike the Trinity?

I see the bulk of Muslims are selfish and are through their sins of omission, helping terrorists who do evil in their name.

The Muslim ummah should be banned and all Muslims deserve to be persecuted!

Perhaps, it's not such a wicked idea for John, Tony and George to ban Islam, conquer all Muslim lands, treat Muslims the way Karl Marx treated them, and make them re-start Islam again based on the true Islamic teachings in the Quran and Sunnah.

I really feel that Islamdom ought to be destroyed and rebuilt from scratch because the bulk of Muslims do not love Islam and their own selves.

The bulk of Muslims helps terrorists. The bulk of Muslims wants the White Bastard to kill him and persecute him.

Perhaps, something good will come out of this.

God save Islam from Muslims. God destroy Islamdom and make the whole world including non-Muslims rebuild Islamdom anew.