It takes little to bring out the true nature of religion. I see why you class christians as being innocent people, not the Iraq's, or the Vietnamese or others killed by christians. For all BD knows I may be meritoriously ordained, playing the devils advocate. Or maybe your christ checking to see whether there is any improvement in the way you apply your religion. But as in the past, you would kill the messenger. Because it is your religion that is at fault, and you.

Look around the world, you will see that there have been many societies that were successful for very long periods without a god head religion. Our Australian indigenous, Borneo, are just two.

I don't hate anything, but it appears that the religious do, by the sad posts against all. It is not vilifying to bring forth historical and realistic fact. The religious use anything they can in whatever way they can to try and quieten anyone that has a different viewpoint.

There is no love in that, just sadness at how low you will stoop to force your evil onto people. I take no sides, but believe that anyone that has to use violence to prove their point, is evil.

I class the innocents of the world no matter what their beliefs, to be much more important that those that continuously try to be the ones that throw the first and the second stones.

As for the religious Bush's of the world, it is alright for them to have their weapons of mass destruction and use them when they feel like it, but no anyone else. It is alright for them to invade and destroy, to capture the major oil reserves on the planet, which are mostly owned by Muslim countries. Thats justifiable we are told, well you can keep that, I just wish you would all go to heaven quickly, sit down with your god and tell him who is right. I am sure he will listen, doesn't he always put things right if you have him in your life.

REASON

GZ did not illustrate the 'idiocy' of Christianity (by the way, under the RRT, that comment is clearly 'vilifying' "Holding up to public ridicule".. but we welcome such comments they don't kill us they make us stronger :)

He is making the point that if you make a religion 'humanly attractive' i.e. pander to our lusts, and make the ritual side not too heavy, then you're on a 'winner' as Islam performs these tasks very well.

Biblical Christianity is TOTALLY different. You appear to know little about Christs teaching or his life, because if u did, you would not make such uninformed comments. So, perhaps you also have a 'chip' :)

Jesus came to sacrifice Himself, (for you by the way) not to glorify himself with material possessions or wealth or woman as did Mohammed. "I came not to be served, but to serve" He said.

I refer you to the gospels for further information.

ALCHEMIST....
your post was enlightening, about your own need to do some reading.

On one thing we agree, it is not vilification to bring historical or factual info to the debate. However, it IS vilification to fabricate or falsify the same.

re 'civilizations which did not have a godhead religion' u mentioned Borneo... that was a big mistake :)

I'm not only married TO an indigenous Bornean girl, but I also served there for 8.5 years as a mssionary.
They practiced animistic religion prior to contact with Christian missionaries who they (her tribe) INVITED to come and teach them about Christ.
They believed they were descended from one individual Arang Bawang who himself came from the Sun
Animism was destroying their race. They lived in constant fear of the 'spirits', which often led to abandoning crops ready for harvest, they practiced head hunting, and inter-tribal war was commonplace, and they kept slaves.
They used to be drunk more days a year than they were sober. They were dying out.
Christ transformed them, and today are a vibrant progressive group with teachers, members of parliament and have businesses and doctors and lawyers among them

l wounder if the 'war on terror' will go the same way as the 'war on drugs.'

Dont treat the cause just the symptoms.
Roll out every bit of nonsense to justify mass suspicion and paranoia of your neighbour.
Fight an un-winnable war but claim periodic battle victories.
Basically, give the state a reason to exist and expand.

Thankyou BD for establishing your inability to accept criticism of your own faith – while piling it up on others.

For your enlightenment, I am a Christian. I have read the bible and even turned to it in times of a few crises. This does not mean that I accept the belittling of others faiths. No, no ‘chip’ on my shoulder – but what do I spy on yours.

Your insights into Islam have no basis in understanding, just a simple man’s fear and uncertainty. Yes, there are issues with the history and practice of Islam – something that clearly exists in the history and practice of Christianity. I have read your rebuttals to this and your weak excuse of ‘they were not really Christian’ does not hold water. They were and in many cases committed atrocities not for themselves but for their God. No distancing yourself from them negates the facts.

My point was to show that you should not belittle another religion without first confronting your own. Something you (and others) have regularly avoided in these posts. One of the major tenants of Christianity is tolerance and acceptance. Try to come from that angle.

I see no conflict in having a belief and allowing others to have theirs. You claim this cannot happen in Islam yet I live near and have Islamic friends who are fine with my beliefs. Yes, there are extremists – they exist in our religion too. However, I have read your posts and you have such a dim view of humanity that I believe nothing will satisfy you that it is not a danger to be different.

My apologies if you feel vilified. However, it seems you do not like a little return on your own investment.

Good on you Reason :)
No, I don't actually feel vilified, what you said in a few places was technical vilification, but I'm fine with it as I've already mentioned.

I see your point about 'not belittling' other peoples beliefs. Commendable attitude. I'm not seeking to 'belittle' but to shine the light on. There is a difference.

Please note, that my focus is not on denigrating but deconstructing, I don't think you have come to grips with the actual core of Islam in the way I have.

I hesitate to repeat, but your experience of Muslims is in a minority social setting, have you lived with them where they are the majority ?
There is quite a difference. Most are just normal social creatures like us, agreed. But then, my issue is not with the 'average Muslim' its with the teachings and example of Mohammed, which is what feeds the 'strategically important' of the Muslims, i.e. the Sheiks and Imams. When push comes to shove, they are the ones who determine the mood in the Islamic community.

Trust me when I say you have to have lived 'under' Islam and see how they react to a political threat to their power.. its quite eye opening. I feared for my life at one stage, just looking into the faces of people (after their side lost an election.)You could tell all the Muslims because of the rage you could see there. I had to talk my way through a border crossing with Armalites kind of staring me in the face... quite unnerving.

I continue to make the comparison with JESUS... because that is the point of divergence. I don't mind any reference to 'evil' things so called Christians have done historically if its factual, but I do take issue with falsehood about Christ. So please don't suggest I 'can't take it'.

You are observing GZ TAN's rather vocal posts, I'm thinking he lived under the same regime I did. Note how it effected him ?

Nothing I've said about Mohammed has been factually incorrect, so why do you keep attacking me ?

Hullo...I sometines come to this site to read comments...most of the time I see the same old same old regulars. They seem to dominate this forum and go oooonnn and ooonnnnn and ooonnnn about religion (yawn). I challenge you to open up to individual ideas without bullying those that aren't full of hate, or don't want to quote the bible (yawn), or actually think that everyone is entitled to be different and to have different beliefs and feelings (ooh scarey). Invigorate yourselves! And the rest of us! Go on, I dare ya!