It is interesting that a Jewish publication publishes an article that is supportive of the proposed anti-terrorism legislation. The Civil Liberties Association of lawyers in Victoria and Sydney have drawn attention to the fact that this kind of legislation, providing extraordinary powers of search and detention to a secret police force, was introduced only one other time in a democratic country. That country was Germany and the man who pushed for it was Adolf Hitler.

Certainly we need to fight terrorism, but we already have an adequate legal system to do that. This legislation would not have stopped the London or Madrid bombers. The problem with this legislation is that it actually removes the freedom that we claim to protect from the terrorists. Ironically, by framing the proposed enhanced legislation, our Howard Government is giving into the terrorists.

Any government that runs a fear campaign to keep its citizens in check is not to be trusted. I for one do not want to hand my freedom of speech to a Prime Minister who listens more to George Bush than to his own people.

If we are sincere about fighting terrorism, then let us address the reasons for its existence. This legislation is a bandaid treatment at best or at worst another avenue for facism.

Paul Kelly of “The Australian” newspaper - predicts that the war on terror, will be a long-running one. He also predicts that Western nations such as Australia face the prospect of an exceedingly difficult challenge, but a challenge with the military only playing a supporting role

Paul Kelly cites David Kilcullen, keynote speaker last weekend on the theme of “War and Conflict in the 21st Century.” Kilcullen, who has only recently returned from the US as a special adviser on counter-terrorism, believes the US is in a dilemma. It must maintain military superiority to contain the rise of problem states, yet the core threat America faces, apparently needs far more intellectual thought.

Kilcullen’s diagnosis is that two epic trends drive the new warfare, neo-liberal globalisation and US imperialist military dominance.

Globalisation and the return of the 19th century free-market, has created the already, well-known term, blowback. G8 protestors, environmental extremists, and narco-insurgents, opposing the American neo-liberal model, yet the model disrupting all their lives in different ways - the extreme of the protestors ready to fight the US and its allies where the massive military combination is weak, in the combination’s own lodgings and in its own streets by the use of increasingly successful suicide bombing..

Suicidal warfare as being played now by the Muslims, is cheap, difficult to counter and often effective - as also agreed upon by Keith Suter, who in an Online main essay not long ago, cited the successful suicide attacks by the Tamil Tigers, which caused a worried Sri-Lankan government to grant them independence. Also the Americans forced to remove their troops from Lebanon after over 250 American marines were killed in one suicide-actuated explosion. Many other examples can be cited, the more recent one in Spain, causing Spain to withdraw its troops from Iraq.

Kilcullen’s three-point victory programme is daunting to the extreme. A need for a road map to guide democratic societies under assault. However, the debate post-London is so marked by community revulsion, there is still yet a profound strategic uncertainty.

George C - WA - (Bushbred)

Luckily the Wonderous Fish knows all,and has faith in our ethical legal system that is more adept at protecting it's own self interest and freeing criminals to prey upon it's own citizens time and time again.

Terrorism won't be defeated by any self serving legal system,but by the courage and tenacity of those who have the inpiration to be free of this retarded med- evil philosophy.

Our current legal system is worried about losing it's own power base, when ordinary citizens finally decide that enough is enough.

The legal disease is also terrorising our citizens.

The need for very strict Anti Terror laws is underlined by the following:

Tamil Tigers, the main authors of the 'suicide bomb', were also well known for another more insidious and dangerous to us program. i.e. killing of their own moderates !

I predict with absolute confidence, that this is how it (is) will pan out among Muslims in Australia, (not with assasinations as yet) unless they rat out all and sundry of the radicals before they get an irreversable grip on the places of worship.

This cycle of 'radicalization=> attacking the moderates=> overall radicalization' is a pattern which we all should be sufficiently aware of from countless places and movements in the world, not to mention plain common sense.

For this reason, only a very strict policy of containment (which has an immigration element to it) will prove effective while we still have a chance.

Unfortunately, containment is a rather 'reactive' response. The core of the issue is at the core of the religion concerned. As long as it teaches as it does, this will be a recurring phenomena. We might contain the current generation, but then the new younger firebrands will begin to ask "Our wonderful religion teaches thus and so.. WHYYYY are our leaders not doing more to achieve this ?" and the cycle continues.

So, to repeat my opening statement.. anti terror laws these days need to be far reaching and effective.

Hmm... I may be wrong, but I thought the Tamil Tigers are Hindu, rather than Muslim. However, that doesn't really detract from BOAZ_David's point, i.e. that terrorists of all forms act as if they are authorised by their religions, even if that is not really the case.

I'm thinking of, in addition to the Al Qaeda creeps, Hindu terrorists like the Tamil Tigers, the IRA and UFF Christian terrorists in Ireland, the anti-abortion Christian terrorists who blow up abortion clinics in the US, the Zionist terrorists who kill Palestinian women and kids, etc etc.

Maybe we should just ban all religions, or at least the fundamentalist versions of them.

I believe you are right giaman, the Tamils are Hindu and suicide bombers were used in WW2 by the Japaneses, also in Vietnam and just about every conflict before or after. Once again we have one faction of religion accusing another of violence without looking at the true facts. It is irrelevant as to the form of religion, they are all the same, violent, repressive and evil. All of them fail to provide one scrap of evidence as to the benefits religion has brought to the world.

The available evidence is totally the opposite, you will not find a time during the last 2000 years where the religious have not been involved in the wholesale slaughter of life on this planet. The true solution would be to ban religion, but then we put ourselves in their place, trying to force our ways onto them. Religion should only be followed within the home and designated places of worship, not on the streets or in advertising, or by annoying people in their homes. It should be personal worship and not mass control, which is the ideal of all religions.

It is difficult to get rational discussion from the religious, because they have their heads in the sand, and their bums firmly seated in the past. They are not rational nor even understandable, nothing they say has any sense in it at all. If you are going to have vilification and anti terrorism laws, then those laws should stop the religious from vilifying, annoying and terrorising the non religious with their unsupportable rubbish, and constant mental and physical conflicts between the religious factions.

Giaman
the point I was making about the Tamils, was the 'radicalization of moderates' not the specific religion.

The appeal to ones religious foundations, and the justification of acts of brutality in some cause, finds its roots in another area, except in the case of Islam which has specific commands to expand "militarily" and that area is soverignty, resources, access to trade and simple greed.

The northern Ireland situation is a classic. It began with British aspirations of rule, and was worsened by Oliver Cromwell who himself was responding initially to the Sovereign who tried to enforce an 'approved' mode of worship purely out of self interest and 'control'. When Cromwell went to Ireland (being part of Great Britain/UK at the time) he put down the Catholics with increasing brutality.
The dust settled, and then we have the protestant/Catholic mix in northern Ireland where the main issues are 'sovereignty and access to resources (Jobs)' Due to the history, Catholics have deep distrust and hatred of the British rule, and as a reaction, no doubt access to jobs is severely restricted by the Protestant status quo, in the interests of security and social cohesian.

So, I maintain that it is not the 'religion' which is the problem, it all comes back in this case to the greed and power of a sovereign Charles the II who USED religion for his own purposes, and now we have the inherited baggage.

Once we peel back the layers of the cases in point, we will always arrive at the same point. "We" are the problem, not the religion. When it comes to the Christian faith, there is no foundation for territorial advances, empire building and the such like. The Law is summarized in 2 commands. Love God with all your heart and your neighbour as yourself.

Terrorists are motivated by passion for their view of behavioural ideals of a pure society. Religion / philosophy that holds a view of a pure State will eradicate its opposition. Hitler, Mao, Stalin are recent examples to establish pure States upon their high ideals. Notably in these models there is no view of a Divine being beyond the leader of the movement. The problem is not holding a view, but holding a view that all opposition must be destroyed - eradicated.

Because of the pride of human beings, there will never be a period in human history when conflict will not occur. The present exclusive Muslim State is not a new idea, it has its roots in the Arabic religion from the sons of Abraham defined by Moses to eradicate any other gods and purify the land of evil pagan behaviour. They hold to a literal view of the enforcement of monotheism, and the eradication of any behaviour not consistent with the moral revelation of Allah.

Today, Muslims wish to reinstate this level of behaviour upon citizens of the World. They see the Western world as morally corrupt and debauched. Alcohol to be banned, infidelity in marriage put to death, sexual perversions to be put to death, belief in other religious views or gods to be put to death. They believe in the superiority of the ancient revelation, reinstated by Mahomet.

They see opposition to Allah as condoning evil behaviour. Therefore it is justified to destroy the opponents of this pure view of Allah.

The reluctance to stand up to brazen Muslim threats of violence has led to the London bombings. It is clear that neither do Australians have the mettle to take on extremism until we have lost lives.

The passive naievity of the Western world is somewhat amazing in the face of threats to civilisation. Americans had to be attacked three times before they responded, England allowed hate to be preached on the streets but waited until citizens were dead before they reacted and now Australia patiently waits for its "turn" allowing people with extreme religious ideologies to live in the country, sell violent books under the guise of "free speech" and preach hatred. Meanwhile we wait for the inevitable. Serious action is need now, but we are not up to it.

Dear BOAZ David

Well here goes mate. I guess I will be bullied and bashed by most posters - verbally of course - and not by you!

I want to know what all the do-gooders think about the notion that "it cannot happen here".

See "Sunshine Coast Daily" (August 13 2005). Possibly our latest internal scare. I live around 2K from this person's family.

OK all you people who play softy and mushy mind games and want us to be free, liberal, and all that bull8888.

Apologies for my poor grammar and related expression - frankly don't give a stuff - seems that Aussies are allowing Terrorists to change basics - not me!!

Kay

PS - to all the do-gooders: he lives next door to me! And before you get on your high horse - I don't give a damn if he is black/white/brindle - he is terrorising.

The legal existence of the Islam religion ensures there will always be extremism and terrorism.

To eradicate Islamic terrorism, it is necessary to challenge and thoroughly discredit its theology, then reduce the religion to the status of an illegal cult, first in Western nations, then Islamic countries... This is the ONLY way.

Unfortunately this is quite impossble. Hence there will always be Islamic terrorism to deal with.

And yes the Western world has been very naive about the threat from Islam.

Hi all.. Kay.. GZ Philo etc... yes, its a concerning time for sure.

GZ has the right idea, about discrediting Islam at its theological/historical roots. The problem is, the 'current form' of popular Islam is quite removed from its own roots, and all the horror and cruelty of its founder is 'glossed over' and put out of their minds. This is as much because of it being a 'culture' into which its adherants are born, so they grow up with it as their 'blood and bones'. (Tan.. 'darah daging'<-understand this ? :)

I was chatting with a Muslim on IRC a day or so ago, and when you ask them about Mohammed torturing the theives, it just does not 'click' about how serious this is for a person who claims to be 'the last messneger from God'.

John the Baptist came eating locusts and honey, a man who absolutely did nothing of a self serving nature. Hence he was regarded as a man truly from God. Jesus came, healing, raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, also not a sceric of 'self serving self indulgance'.

Those with the most to lose said his powers came from the devil, the man in the street, the man who 'was blind...- but now I see' saw him as the Saviour.

Mohammed came, no miracle. 13 wives, (1 aged 9) 1/5 of all war booty,
tortured, murdered, mass murdered, invaded, raided/stole ... and we are expected to accept this man as "The Last and final messenger from God" ?

Only the closed minded and bigoted in my opinion would call this 'My religion is better than your religion' ism......the facts stand by themselves.

We have to always have the freedom to point out these roots of terrorism (Islamic terrorism) and God help us when we can't.

The man who invented a method of producing nitrogen for fertilizer on which 2 billion rely for agricultural success is also the man who Chemical/Gas warfare for the Nazis. Do we accept National socialism because of that ?

Philo, “Because of the pride of human beings, there will never be a period in human history when conflict will not occur.” That is about all we can expect from the religious, nothing positive unless it is religious. If you look through history, you will find many societies that have been non religious and have existed without constant war, some for thousands of years.

David Boaz, “So, I maintain that it is not the 'religion' which is the problem, it all comes back in this case to the greed and power of a sovereign Charles the II who USED religion for his own purposes, and now we have the inherited baggage”.

Religion is the problem and always has been, it will continue to be the major problem for the progress of this planet as long as it is allowed to soil our world. Islam is very radical, but so is christianity as can be seen throughout history.

All sovereign leaders have religious backgrounds and use religion for their own means, with the support of those religions. The 1st and 2nd world wars shows you that. Hitler had immense support from the churches who stood by and watched the slaughter. Just look at Bush, Blair, Howard, very religious as well as being war criminals. Not much different from the past to the present.

Inherited baggage, give us a break, you only have baggage if you follow the same pattern, approach and application that created the baggage in the first place. So the religious of today are just a repeat of a bad repeat.

I don't see any relevant practical love coming from any religion. From the christian point of view, it is about economic power and control whilst with the muslims, it it is about physical power and control, not much difference there. They both still attempt to use emotional and physical violence to maintain their fallacies.

It is really not that difficult to discredit the Islam religion, because it is a fraud in the first place... the problem is not many dared to openly challenge the religion and those who tried, are going around in circles. You need to see thing from a different angle, then all will be clear.

May the truth set us free.

First would someone like to start a new religion?

It is not as difficult as you may think. Consider these:-

o It is wise to spin off another established religion. You are more likely to succeed and it is more credible that way. And better, you can claim that your new religion is a 'revised', hence improved version of the other one. You know, like buying computer software, always go for the later version with less bugs.

o Make sure to start preaching to the poor and simple-minded. There are a lot more people like that and they are far less questioning. Provide teachings which discourage both materialism and open-mindedness. This will help to keep the poor simple-minded and be compliant. Such people are easy to manipulate and they are valuable grassroot of the faith.

o To ensure success, make sure your theology is sweetened and bias in favour of man. Top up with nicety such as allowing man to marry multiple wives.

o You will get sympathetic hearing by saying nice thing about children. So preach that children are gifts of god. This will encourage more children to be borned in families of believers. That way your followers will increase in number faster than you'd think.

o Let man be the master in a marriage and decree that the primary duty of women is to breed. This will enhance sexual pleasure of man, instill a sense of duty in sexual relationship and directly propel the number of followers upwards.

o Provide a semblance of theology that are easy to appreciate and benefitual to follow, by man especially. Such as preaching peace on one hand, then teaching that to achieve peace, an eye for an eye is quite okay.

To discredit the attitudes of terrorists they must change their belief that nation / religious purity as a State is not the highest goal; that the value of every life is the most important value, and we must do everything to enhance that position. We have those who believe that only life that contributes to our society, our philosophy / religion, our personal lifestyle, our wealth, our taxation pool is worthy of support and existence. For instance we have over 100,000 perfectly healthy foetuses aborted every year in Australia because some believe they interfere with our personal pleasure or economics, we have those who would euthanasia the elderly, or sick.

The distinct value of all life was emphasised by Jesus, who spoke to the social outcasts, the poor, to the Roman opponents of Judaism he healed a son of a soldier, the demented the leprous and healed them. He gave us the value that all life is worthy of God. That a healed leper could enter the Temple outraged the Priests, that a wounded man could be passed by Puritan Priests but cared for by the second class Samaritan was Jesus view of his neighbour. Christ Jesus holds all men are equal and worthy of the love of God. Though Muslims recognise Jesus they ignore the values he taught.

Alchemist,

it seems you have an anti religous chip on your shoulder the size of Ayers rock.... I don't think you noticed Philo's posting about the various 'atheist' leaders (Russian/Mao) who perpretrated incalculable atrocities.

You claim there were 'non religious' civilizations which existed for '1000s' of years without war etc ?.. my goodness, not only do you have a chip but ur blind or willfully ignorant also...
I feel this is an impossible and absurd claim because prior to modern society ALL societies had a religous element and were also constantly at war with their neighbours....
Please let us in on these civilizations, and where we can read all about them.

You want love ? see my post in the 'Death of Politics' this morning.

I'm guessing Alchemist that you have had some kind of faith crisis where God turned out to have different plans from you, or you have some loved one who has been scarred by some bad religious experience.. and you decided to just hate Him ? Its just a guess, but all the symptoms are there.

This topic is about free speech.. and legislation... maybe we should focus on that :) I suppose you are a classic example of why we DO need free speech... otherwise your own opinions would be supressed... right ?

I don't think I've come across anyone quite as vilifying (towards us)as yourself, even Garra just descends into incoherant mumbling, Kenny is so predictable as to be more boring than threatening, Xena makes herself look a bit silly with out of context quotes, but you make full frontal attacks, kinda remind me of "Saul" before his Damascus road experience :) so.. watch out Alchemist, God might place a loving hand on your life in ways you don't expect, and next thing you will be 'preaching the faith you once tried to destroy" :

The discussion in these posts and the fairly rapid devolvement into racial or religious vilifation would definitely have Hitler celebrating in hell. You have just beautifully demonstrated the real danger of stronger "anti-terrorism" laws. Those who support the way to fascism very quckly generalise about a religion. Islam, by the way, is the only monotheistic religion that advocates tolerance of everyone's belief. In fact it is a far less voilent religion than Christianity which forced its progress through the sword and murder of non-believers. Have a look at the history of terrorism (which by the way has existed as long as man began to exercise power over his fellow man) and you will find many Christian terrorists. One of them lives in the White House today.

The Fish,

You neither know the teachings of Jesus nor have studied his discourses. When you make statements like this: "Islam, by the way, is the only monotheistic religion that advocates tolerance of everyone's belief. In fact it is a far less violent religion than Christianity which forced its progress through the sword and murder of non-believers."

Absolute bigoted nonsense! Individual Christian are being murdered every day at the hands of Muslim extremists.

Terrorism is the act of aggression against civilian populations, terrorists do not engage against armed soldiers they are cowards. Terrorists inflict pain upon the innocent unsuspecting Population. What George Bush has declared is war on terrorists, it has not been his intent to create terror on innocent civilians. From your attitude we can deduce you are a supporter of Osama and 9/11.

I suggest you ask the Afghani refugees seeking asylum in Western countries if they believe Osama is a terrorist. Or Iraqi's who have fled to Australia - if Saddam was a sadistic terrorist.

From your attitude toward George Bush, if you live in Australia maybe you need to be checked out by the CIA to see if you have links with known terrorists cells.

Philo,The Fish is just another raving anachist with singular vision.They don't want to view the world in all its complexity.It interfers with their agenda.

The biggest problem with this sort of thinking is the notion that all peoples and generations can be judged by their idealistic view of how the world should be.

In the end their own flawed arguments reveal the bias and the lunacy.
We just need to keep our cool,keep chipping away and let fact and logic reveal the nonsense.

the preachers in this case are x islam or one of them is ......... they actully didnt vilify islam the jsut quoted from the Koran ...... that was enuff ... i read the sermon, it was clear they are not keen on islam , but that is their right is it not?..it was the quotes from the koran that were the problem, its so ironic

doesnt matter that this article is from a jewish mag, the whole case is a shocking sham. surely the right of reply and the freedom of debate should be enough to hold your ground islam xtian what ever..

this is the way of islam, critize it and you go down, the funny thing is basically it is so ugly u only have to hear it read out the koran vilifies its self with its own hatred

still its serious we need to lobby for free speech, or we will be living in fear of a simple opinion in the not to far future ... hate crimes are already legislated with laws suck as GBH, incitement to riot etc... its pathetic

Fish, you and your type have been brainwashed by the Anti-Bush rhetoric to the point that you actually believe the Michael Moore garbage. Sounds to me like you are villifying Christians, you tolerant person you.

And to say Islam is a tolerant religion.Duh. Ever heard of the term "infidel"?

Your type continually refer to the Christian crusades which is unsurprising as this is where Islam currently functions... 500 yrs on the past. It was a long time ago and has nothing to do with whats happening in 2005 except as another reason to justify Islamic murderers.

You are a mushruikin, which in Islamic terms is a person who is temporarily useful for the cause but will eventually be exterminated anyway. You are happy to live in a country which gives you a lifestyle impossible in most Muslim countries yet you support its overthrow.

There only one place for terrorist supporters like you is "overseas" with your friends. Ever considered becoming a human shield?

You'll have a chance soon when Pres Bush is forced to deal with Iran.

for those who were unsure earlier the tamil tigers are islamic as is about 2/3 s of all the worlds religious persicuton

continue from my earlier post...

o Provide an easily identifiable target and name an enemy of the religion. The best is another ethnic race which has been competitor economically and is already being hated anyway. This provides an important rally point for followers and a better sense of religious purpose.

o Most people are drawn to hating one's enemy and listen to why the hatred is justifiable. Therefore make sure you do not preach love towards one's enemy because most people cannot grasp the logic. Rather, make enemy acceptance of the faith a prerequisite for compassion towards them.

o Dish out a hope of eternal life but also spell out the requirements which will directly propel the expansion of the religion. For example, preach that those who dies for the religion are quaranteed a place in paradise with heavenly virgins.

o Implement simple laws that are effective in the eyes of the masses. For example, adulterous women are to be stoned to death. Craft the law such that it is very hard for women to dispute the allegation. This way they will be at the mercy of man. Man likes such laws they are effective in keeping women in their places. Don't forget this religion must favour man in every way if it is to be successful.

o Make a requirement that believers are to spread the religion.

o Make confident claims that you have obtained words directly from god. Then decree that it is blasphemous to doubt your authority from god. This will help to remove any doubter.

In order to survive, then conquer and plunder, that's how Mohammad cunningly plotted and established Islam. I kid you not. There is NO god called Allah and Mohammad is only a messenger of his own imagination.

Mohammad only started out to destroy the Jews, the arch enemy of the Arabs. Never in his wildest dream did he imagined Islam would spread like uncontrollable weeds that it did. This is much more than he had bargained for. He'd be turning in his grave laughing ha ha ha...

But don't you Muslims be disheartened. Now the messenger of the true god has finally emerged. You see, just like the Jews, Muslims have gone astrayed from the truth too, due to some of the fouled teachings of Mohammad.

The true god is in fact Halla and his true messenger is Dammahom (pbuh: peace and blessings upon him). Dammahom (pbuh) will now lead Muslims to the right path, the path of Malsi (meaning- Submission to Halla). Fortunately if you know Islam than you already know a lot about Malsi which is similar to Islam in many ways. In Malsi, Mohammad is regarded as a prophet with a higher status than Jesus but lower than Dammahom (pbuh).

According to Dammahom (pbuh), Halla now demands that all Muslims must accept the correct version of Koran (known as Narok), repent their deeds as a result of fouled teachings, and progress their salvation by accepting the path of Malsi. Henceforth Muslims will be known as Milsums.

I bear witness there is no God but Halla (the compassionate one) and Dammahom (peace and blessings upon him) is his messenger !!

Good work GZ Tan.

A very insightful and relevant discourse.

If you look closely at your reasoning, you will see that not only have you ‘discredited’ Islam – but you have also described the exact reasons for the idiocy of Christianity! Now if we can only move onto Judaism, we have all the major religions covered!

Try to improve your thinking somewhat GZ – perhaps an open mind, some coherent statements and less brainwashed fuddle from whatever sub-cult religious group you slipped out of…

It takes little to bring out the true nature of religion. I see why you class christians as being innocent people, not the Iraq's, or the Vietnamese or others killed by christians. For all BD knows I may be meritoriously ordained, playing the devils advocate. Or maybe your christ checking to see whether there is any improvement in the way you apply your religion. But as in the past, you would kill the messenger. Because it is your religion that is at fault, and you.

Look around the world, you will see that there have been many societies that were successful for very long periods without a god head religion. Our Australian indigenous, Borneo, are just two.

I don't hate anything, but it appears that the religious do, by the sad posts against all. It is not vilifying to bring forth historical and realistic fact. The religious use anything they can in whatever way they can to try and quieten anyone that has a different viewpoint.

There is no love in that, just sadness at how low you will stoop to force your evil onto people. I take no sides, but believe that anyone that has to use violence to prove their point, is evil.

I class the innocents of the world no matter what their beliefs, to be much more important that those that continuously try to be the ones that throw the first and the second stones.

As for the religious Bush's of the world, it is alright for them to have their weapons of mass destruction and use them when they feel like it, but no anyone else. It is alright for them to invade and destroy, to capture the major oil reserves on the planet, which are mostly owned by Muslim countries. Thats justifiable we are told, well you can keep that, I just wish you would all go to heaven quickly, sit down with your god and tell him who is right. I am sure he will listen, doesn't he always put things right if you have him in your life.

REASON

GZ did not illustrate the 'idiocy' of Christianity (by the way, under the RRT, that comment is clearly 'vilifying' "Holding up to public ridicule".. but we welcome such comments they don't kill us they make us stronger :)

He is making the point that if you make a religion 'humanly attractive' i.e. pander to our lusts, and make the ritual side not too heavy, then you're on a 'winner' as Islam performs these tasks very well.

Biblical Christianity is TOTALLY different. You appear to know little about Christs teaching or his life, because if u did, you would not make such uninformed comments. So, perhaps you also have a 'chip' :)

Jesus came to sacrifice Himself, (for you by the way) not to glorify himself with material possessions or wealth or woman as did Mohammed. "I came not to be served, but to serve" He said.

I refer you to the gospels for further information.

ALCHEMIST....
your post was enlightening, about your own need to do some reading.

On one thing we agree, it is not vilification to bring historical or factual info to the debate. However, it IS vilification to fabricate or falsify the same.

re 'civilizations which did not have a godhead religion' u mentioned Borneo... that was a big mistake :)

I'm not only married TO an indigenous Bornean girl, but I also served there for 8.5 years as a mssionary.
They practiced animistic religion prior to contact with Christian missionaries who they (her tribe) INVITED to come and teach them about Christ.
They believed they were descended from one individual Arang Bawang who himself came from the Sun
Animism was destroying their race. They lived in constant fear of the 'spirits', which often led to abandoning crops ready for harvest, they practiced head hunting, and inter-tribal war was commonplace, and they kept slaves.
They used to be drunk more days a year than they were sober. They were dying out.
Christ transformed them, and today are a vibrant progressive group with teachers, members of parliament and have businesses and doctors and lawyers among them

l wounder if the 'war on terror' will go the same way as the 'war on drugs.'

Dont treat the cause just the symptoms.
Roll out every bit of nonsense to justify mass suspicion and paranoia of your neighbour.
Fight an un-winnable war but claim periodic battle victories.
Basically, give the state a reason to exist and expand.

Thankyou BD for establishing your inability to accept criticism of your own faith – while piling it up on others.

For your enlightenment, I am a Christian. I have read the bible and even turned to it in times of a few crises. This does not mean that I accept the belittling of others faiths. No, no ‘chip’ on my shoulder – but what do I spy on yours.

Your insights into Islam have no basis in understanding, just a simple man’s fear and uncertainty. Yes, there are issues with the history and practice of Islam – something that clearly exists in the history and practice of Christianity. I have read your rebuttals to this and your weak excuse of ‘they were not really Christian’ does not hold water. They were and in many cases committed atrocities not for themselves but for their God. No distancing yourself from them negates the facts.

My point was to show that you should not belittle another religion without first confronting your own. Something you (and others) have regularly avoided in these posts. One of the major tenants of Christianity is tolerance and acceptance. Try to come from that angle.

I see no conflict in having a belief and allowing others to have theirs. You claim this cannot happen in Islam yet I live near and have Islamic friends who are fine with my beliefs. Yes, there are extremists – they exist in our religion too. However, I have read your posts and you have such a dim view of humanity that I believe nothing will satisfy you that it is not a danger to be different.

My apologies if you feel vilified. However, it seems you do not like a little return on your own investment.

Good on you Reason :)
No, I don't actually feel vilified, what you said in a few places was technical vilification, but I'm fine with it as I've already mentioned.

I see your point about 'not belittling' other peoples beliefs. Commendable attitude. I'm not seeking to 'belittle' but to shine the light on. There is a difference.

Please note, that my focus is not on denigrating but deconstructing, I don't think you have come to grips with the actual core of Islam in the way I have.

I hesitate to repeat, but your experience of Muslims is in a minority social setting, have you lived with them where they are the majority ?
There is quite a difference. Most are just normal social creatures like us, agreed. But then, my issue is not with the 'average Muslim' its with the teachings and example of Mohammed, which is what feeds the 'strategically important' of the Muslims, i.e. the Sheiks and Imams. When push comes to shove, they are the ones who determine the mood in the Islamic community.

Trust me when I say you have to have lived 'under' Islam and see how they react to a political threat to their power.. its quite eye opening. I feared for my life at one stage, just looking into the faces of people (after their side lost an election.)You could tell all the Muslims because of the rage you could see there. I had to talk my way through a border crossing with Armalites kind of staring me in the face... quite unnerving.

I continue to make the comparison with JESUS... because that is the point of divergence. I don't mind any reference to 'evil' things so called Christians have done historically if its factual, but I do take issue with falsehood about Christ. So please don't suggest I 'can't take it'.

You are observing GZ TAN's rather vocal posts, I'm thinking he lived under the same regime I did. Note how it effected him ?

Nothing I've said about Mohammed has been factually incorrect, so why do you keep attacking me ?

Hullo...I sometines come to this site to read comments...most of the time I see the same old same old regulars. They seem to dominate this forum and go oooonnn and ooonnnnn and ooonnnn about religion (yawn). I challenge you to open up to individual ideas without bullying those that aren't full of hate, or don't want to quote the bible (yawn), or actually think that everyone is entitled to be different and to have different beliefs and feelings (ooh scarey). Invigorate yourselves! And the rest of us! Go on, I dare ya!

Lisamaree

Thanks for your post. Clearly, the points that you raise are pertinent. Even so, one of the best ways for you to stop yawning is for you to contribute your thoughts about issues. Labelling people does not achieve anything - but healthy challenges and debate could move the religious thrust. It's really up to you.

Cheers
Kay

Hi Reason,

Truth is very important to me.

Re your comment 'coherent statements'- Well I am limited in words, I try to express my thought the best I can. I welcome constructive suggestions because I'd like to improve my argument on what I believe is important anecdotal evidence of the falsehood of Islam. And people should be told that point of view.

But no excuse for you:

--> You claim to be a Christian but you mention "idiocy of Christianity" and worst, completely failed to realise that my comments do not discredit Christianity in anyway.

I think you do not understand what you believe in (but think you do).

Due to restrictions on the number of postings I may not write often and anyhow I may quickly lost interest. So as much as you are able to, please make your reasoning clear in what ways is discrediting Islam also discrediting Christianity and/or Judaism?

I anticipate a learned reply from a person called 'REASON'.

Hullo...lisamaree,
1. I too like to see postings from a lot more people. But I can assure you I'm new here. A lot newer than you.
2. You'd like to read about how people are different and yet accepted. So do you stand for anything? Little wonder not many people like you post to this forum.

Trade 215,yes we are running the risk of becoming more like the nutters we are trying to defeat.Our ordinary freedoms will diminish as we try to fight fire with denial of the realities that confront us.The shame is, I know a lot of good intelligent people of Arabic decent,very close by the way genetically to Southern Italians who have made excellent Australians,however we have an Islamic cancer that is intolerant to all other belief systems.It is bred from hundreds of years of feeling inferior to others.These people have suffered the harsh discipline of desert existence ,Christian invasions and thus their laws are just as harsh and unforgiving.There has been no luxury of time to learn and progress to a higher form of civilisation as has happened in Northern Europe.

Suddenly with the discovery of oil, the Middle east is launched into the modern era with a belief system over 1000yrs old that conflicts with most logic.The result is that the power brokers of this religion ,reject all Western logic that has produced this new prosperity because it erodes their power base.

Thus today ,we have a confused belief system of suspicion, hate and with this,violence ensues.They have yet to realise that it is not us, but their own devisive religious leaders who are their worst enemies.

Yes, our own Govts may well use terrorism to expand their own power base, but this will only destroy the "Golden Goose" of private enterprise productivity.There are just too many ways for terrorists to attack and it is up to ordinary citizens to identify the traitors.

Alchemist,
You quote that "Our Australian indigenous" are a people without a religion. Your ignorance of the belief system of our pure indigenous people is appalling. Read the dreamtime stories. They are a very spiritual people, with a religious interpretation of their past and their environment. I have lived and worked with them in Alice Springs and they are very religious.

The many tribal groups had their territory and their intertribal wars. They were not one big happy family as you seem to imagine; they were human, with fears of spirits and superstition about their world.

Quote, "Look around the world, you will see that there have been many societies that were successful for very long periods without a god head religion. Our Australian indigenous, Borneo, are just two."

Since B_D has discredited your claim about the tribal people of Borneo actually being religious and I have discredited your claim about our native Australians, it seems you are left without an argument to defend that society works perfectly withour religon. These people tell me they are much happier without their tribal religion binding them in fear and superstition.

Please bd, philo, get your facts right, I never said that in Borneo and Australia they weren't religious. My quote, “Look around the world, you will see that there have been many societies that were successful for very long periods without a god head religion. Our Australian indigenous, Borneo, are just two.”

Both peoples, and the Nth American Indians, and many more were animists. They don't have a god head as such, they are spiritual. You will note that all survived many thousands of years keeping the environment in good condition and living within the laws of nature.

You will also note that since the intervention of religious missionaries, their ways of life and the environment that was protected with their beleifs for many thousands of years, has been decimated in less than a couple of hundred years.

Good job in the Alice philo, people walking around with cans of petrol tied to their heads sniffing, rampant alcoholism, sexual and physical abuse, meaningless lives. Previously, they had a belief that gave them a goal and reason to live, carers of the land. Now they are destitute, terrorised into having nothing to live for but religious enforced misery.

They were terrorised into missions, separated, poisoned with christian food and illnesses. So I thank you for your support, I think you discredit yourself by your irrational and illogical outbursts.

By the way, I am fully aware of bd's and philo's history, thats why I chose those two examples.

So anti terrorist laws are too late, they should have been here before the missionaries arrived. But I forget, the religious will deny, pass the buck, abuse, threaten, try to justify then try to mislead us from the reality of what they represent.

"These people tell me they are much happier without their tribal religion binding them in fear and superstition."

I think we would all be much happier without the tribal religions of some Middle-Eastern pastoralists binding us in fear and superstition. I also agree that 'anti-terrorism measures' should have been adopted a couple of centuries ago by Aboriginal societies in Australia.

Thanks to kalweb & G2 for acknowledging the need for more open-mindedness (I'm sure you won't mind me interpreting it that way)..Heres my personal oponion on this hot topic:
looking through the messages, it only took a few posts for the "free speach, anti-terrorism laws & racial vilification" topic to turn into a discussion about religion. My OPINION about FREE SPEECH is that it's our right to exercise it and that as long when we do, we have the courage to express oursleves on a stand-alone basis,not like that self-indulgent uni professor who, although was free-speeching about not letting "violent" "blacks" into Australia, used the fact that he was a uni prof from a prominent Syd uni to sprout his RACIAL VILIFICATION. If mr/ms nobody tried the same, they wouldn't have had the advantage of the forum he used. They certainly wouldn't have gotten air time on major radio stations & certainly wouldn't have made the headlines.

My OPINION about ANTI-TERRORISM LAWS: I don't want to live in a country where we're all suspicious of each other. Do u? I don't have a solution, which is why I've been reading this page. I'm very interested in knowing what others think (kind of like a think-tank approach) as to how to combat this?

My OPINION about RACIAL VILIFICATION is pretty clear. It breeds hatred & fear of anything that looks different, sounds different. I grew up in central coast NSW, where, until about the early 80's, the only foreigners were european. Even the Italians used to get a bashing. And now we lov em. In fact, as my brother recently pointed out to me, they're running NSW! I wonder how our current hatred of other races and religions will change over the next 20,50, 100 yrs?

Are we heading into another era like the 50's where we we're all suspicious of the communists? And if so, can we learn by our previous mistakes?

Alchemist,
When it comes to observation of the facts about our aboriginals; with quotes like this?? "Previously, they had a belief that gave them a goal and reason to live, carers of the land. Now they are destitute, terrorised into having nothing to live for but religious enforced misery."

My involvement in the Alice was to assist building houses for the care of children at their campsite, otherwise these children would now be known as the stolen generation. Missionaries never introduced alcohol etc - it was western debauched society. The people in Alice were not on a mission site, they were on their own land. Taxi Drivers would bring clients for sexual favours from teenage girls in exchange for alcohol. I suggest you visit the aboriginal cattle stations in the Gulf Country where alcohol is banned, and see for yourself how early missionaries helped them develop their own enterprise so they could participate in a modern world.

You certainly love to vilify missionaries who raised the standard of living and life expectancy for these people. Your vilification does not offend me because I know their true stories, and have heard their praise for what I and others did. It has been the debauched imports who has been responsible for the destruction of these people

It is a 'clash of civilizations' of 'us versus them'!

Islamic culture is at war with Australian society - in particular Lebanese have nothing but hatred for Australians and Australian Society.

It is not a question of international terrorism, but a question of the terror faced by Australians on the streets of our society, terror from Lebanese who hate Australians because we are Australian and 'Infidels.

In western Sydney gang rape has been used by Lebanese against young Australian girls, and this happens more than the public is aware. It has been happening for the last ten years and longer and it is only the headlines of '55 years' for Bilal Skaff, the leader of a brutal Lebanese gang rape on a young Australian girl, which brought it to light... She was raped by up to 30 Lebanese men, passed from car to car as the rapist contacted their 'cousins and friends' with SMS mobile phone messages. She was told she deserved it because she was an "Aussie slut" and that the men would rape her "Leb style" - and it is the Sheiks of Islam who have intended this, preaching that it is woman's fault as they wear 'strapless, backless' clothes. It is a culture of hate for our society and people - we are Infidels to even the moderate Muslims.

Australia needs to make sure that not one Australian girl has the chance of being gang raped by Lebanese in Australian society because she is Australian.

Australia hands such people Australian citizenship and these people are protected by Australian law... what right should such people have of our laws when they have no love for this country. It is time that citizenship meant love for this country and it is time that Australia takes back our society.

Our ancestors built this country and it is being handed to Lebanese who hate us and our society.

It is a 'clash of civilizations' of 'us versus them'!

Thor

You are correct Islam hates us deeply for been infidels, they abuse the PC using to censor any opinion about their religion and its effect on our society, the case in Victoria at present, is terrifying with its ramification for freedom of speech,

My ancestors are Dutch, to see what has happened to Holland after 40 odd years of multiculture is truly sad. The Theo VanGogh slaughter in the name of Islam, then the censoring of his movie at the Euro art festivals as it was "Isamphobic", oh god hey, talk about an ugly form of PC.

LOL at Turkey wanting to be part of the EU, last I heard they might be let in if the admit to the Armenian massacre. Of course, there is high offence at the thought of it been put back in the high school history text.

The social arm of the jihad is about colonization, breeding many wives and legislation. I wish people would wake the hell up and take note of what has happened in Europe. Europe, Holland in particular, may be gone to Islam, we see Europe struggling so hard to roll back the PC policy making that has undone them, we really should look and learn.

My grandfather fought in WW2 and I am so proud of him, his brother also died in WW2. It is not a crime to be proud of our Australian culture, and history. I feel we should do all we can to save ourselves from the fate of Europe. Australian culture is tougher we don’t take to the crap as easily, thank god.

We should preserve free speech and the pride in our Aussie culture.
Sadly for islam it is hideous. To have this opinion of islam isn’t a crime, the day it becomes one (ie Victorian case) we have lost our country.

Dear Meredith and Col

Many thanks for your honest posts! You have said it all! Anyone who disputes what you are saying has their head in the sand.

Regards
Kay

Sorry - I meant Meredith and Thor

Philo, I spent a lot of the 50's in central Aus, Nth Queens, west NSW and was a witness to how the missionaries treated the koories.

During the 60's I spent a lot of time in Sabah, Sarawak, Malaya, Papua, and the Indonesian archipelago and again witnessed how missionaries treated the indigenous there. With respect philo, when the debauched Christan western culture invaded this country, the life span of indigenous people ranged between 68 and 82, depending on the environment they lived in.

Under the care of christian missionaries, it rapidly declined and in 1953, it was around 39 years of age. It has improved, but only slightly. They had no one to protect them from the zealous debauched christians, who used threats and forced them to abandon the way of life they had followed successfully for many thousands of years, in the name of making them moral god fearing slaves.

I saw my parents many times have heated arguments with the missionaries over their treatment of the Koories under their so called care and then reporting them. Nothing was done as the churches had ultimate control, but if you wish to see the evidence, it is all there in the government archives, reports, photo's.

If only the Koories had anti terrorist laws back then, but the religious wouldn't have listened, they never do. They just try to run rough shod over everyone and everything in their blind haste to get nowhere.

After all the religious have been going round in the same circle for the last couple of thousand years, and they have only achieved war and almost the destruction of the planet. I am sure that your god would approve of that as a stunning success. Good job, you live up to your reputation very well. The religious have and continue to show the world where they have stood all along and it ain't nice.

Yes. Becoming an Australian citizen should mean loving the australian culture, and our heritage and respect for our values...but how can this possibly happenwhen there is so much hatred of new-comers to this county? Those spreading hate need to accept that Australia cannot sustain a "white australia" policy for ever. Gang rape of australian girls (or any girls) by lebanese is an atrocity. So is the gang rape of australian girls by australian men. We all know (sadly) that gang rape happens in most cultures, not just lebanese. Therefore you can't state that only lebanese men would do it. Re Holland - I've been there..the sentiment regarding the influx from arab countries was that it was too much too soon, and it is difficult for the dutch to get used to it. That's understandable because we all resist change. The assimilation of different cultures into this country can only happen with a long, staged approach, the first step of which is education, both for us and the newcomers. How to deal with the extremists? Some of your sentiments are as extreme as the terrorists. They're both ugly to me.

lisamaree - it is the liberalists who are the highest enemy of Australia - it is the liberalists who use Australian law to protect those who hate Australia.

If you or your daughter were gang raped by Lebanese in Australia because you are Australian, then the fantasy world you tell yourself about would come crashing down - it is gang rape 'targeted' at young Australian girls because they are Australian, it is not as the general rapes which happen in all societies.

To state the truth about the path that Australia is on has nothing to do with 'hate' or a 'White Australia Policy' - indeed Australia is a richer place for peoples of all 'colours' who have come and contributed to society -

Australia is a beautiful spectrum of cultures.

I do not know of 'hatred of new comers', but I do know of the hatred that some particular new comers have for Australian society and values - and it is Islam.

Lebanese have no love for Australia, and do not consider themselves to be Australian.

The question of Islam in Australian society will not be answered by 'education' - Islam educates that Australians are 'Infidels'.

The liberalists in Australia - who live up in the 'ivory towers' - have not seen the hate and terror in society for us Australians. It is not about intolerance or lack of education - it is about the conduct of Islamic culture targeted against us which we see in our society everyday.

Our sentiments are 'realist' sentiments out of love for Australia.

Thanks Thor, God of Thunder, I hear you roar. I don't want to argue linguistics with you. Why do you keep generalising about lebanese? It's as ignorant as americans thinking there's kangaroos on the harbour bridge! I think any girl would feel violated if she were raped, either by a lebanese or australian or whatever. Maybe you have had a personal experience? if so, I would understand.

I said "hatred of new comers" because that was my interpretation of some of the posts on this thread. I also said educate all of us. I also said it was a long process. However I don't have any expectation that you could be educated because you're going over and over the same ground and not just in this thread. Your generalisations about lebanese is uniform throughout. Go and eat a kebab. With lots of homos & chilli sauce.

Thanks lisamaree, you've reminded me of something which made me laugh years ago. A grafitto in inner Sydney announced "Even God hates homos". Underneath, a second person had added "Yes, but he loves tabbouli."

Lisa...

what you are observing (the so called 'hatred') is the very reason why it is imperitive to deal with such issues at a policy level rather than at a 'street' level.

You seem to be a kind person, sensitive and caring. You should be a nurse :)
But at the coal face, hard decisions need to be made, possibly involving some distasteful approaches (to some) on Immigration, school social studies etc.
I am adamant that 'race' or skin color should not be a factor in immigration, though some would not see it that way, I have no qualms though on the issue of certain ideologies, for example David Irving the 'holocaust revisionist' was denied a visa.

I take serious issue with Islam, (not Buddhism, or any of the many other 'ism's confronting us) and I would make VERY strict conditions for any Muslim coming to Australia. One thing I would do, is to make citizenship very much dependant on a demonstrated loyalty, and a sworn oath to Australia ABOVE ALL other loyalties, and that includes having them read portions of the Quran, which are in direct conflict with our way of life, and repudiating them in WRITING, with citizenship jeapordized if they infringe this with deportation a very real possibility if they go against this committment.

Not just with Islam, but for any would be immigrant, I'd make them fully aware of the Judao Christian/Anglo European heritage we have and outline all areas where this might conflict with their own faith.

The LAST thing I would do, is adjust our laws to suit them.
That has already been done in a number of areas. Can you imagine our Emergency Services having to refer to some little book about how to treat every race/religion they encounter in their work ? Its ludicrious. Its an insult also, and its HAPPening. They are supposed to give 'special treatement' to Muslims.
Its outlined in one of their operational manuals.

As John Howard said "We will determine who comes here, and under what circumstances they come" (a good call, no matter what ones politics)

Alchemist,
I recognise your extremist hatred and religious vilification of Christians and missions done by the Churches among native people. Your blinked religious hatred colours your view of the world. Christian missionaries did not displace native peoples from their lands or change their diet. It was land holders with leasees and freeholds grants by Governments that pushed them out. Missionaries concerned for their displacement decided to help them, educate them to assist them to enter the new society encroaching upon them. Landholders used them to provide cheap labor because they were good stockmen and fed them corned beef, damper, and tea and introduced them to alcohol. It was their displacement by the emergence of a modern world that disrupted them from their traditional hunting and gathering grounds was the problem.

I assume you do not believe Koori's or for that matter any native people should have entered into the 21st century. Your dream world has been shattered; the Japanese would have wiped them out 60 years ago, so I suggest you get real. Live with the facts as they now exist and improve upon them.

lisamarie - you have your head buried deep in the sand.

You think that because of the terrorist bombings in London that I think every Muslim is a terrorist and I am as 'ignorant as the US' - I am not that stupid - I am referring to issues about our society which have existed for 15 years - I am not talking about terrorism at all.

You have not been touched by this and I realise you will never know what it is like to suffer racism in your own country - the Australians living in Western Sydney in suburbs like Lakemba, Punchbowl, Bankstown know what it is like - up there in the central coast 'ivory tower' you have absolute no idea, and I don’t expect you to.

-Australian girls are gang raped, not for 'pleasure' or for 'power' as in common in rape, but because they are Australian and are hated. There has been a spate of such attacks.

-There is a special police task force working in the Western suburbs, Task Force Gain, set up to fight "Lebanese gangs" - the NSW Police use this description.

-There has been a culture of 'hand guns' and 'drive by shootings' introduced into Sydney by Lebanese - the drive by shooting on the Lakemba Police Station; the double murder drive by shooting in the 'Rocks' Sydney.

-NSW Police are shot at whenever they drive down Talopea St. Punchbowl - it is documented and as been reported in the press.

-Every day in the Daily Telegraph there will be some report where the Police are seeking men "of middle eastern appearance", i.e. Lebanese.

The Islamic culture does not assimilate into Australian society and it is Lebanese youths who are not devout Muslims at all and would have nothing to do with terrorism - it is not the issue.

This is happening, and it has happened to everyone I know - so don’t tell me form your 'ivory tower' that I am ignorant and reacting to terrorism cause I have experienced this first hand.

GZ Tan,
OK, to expand on my point: “you said” (and my comparison):

“May the truth set us free.” – (I most certainly agree.)

”o It is wise to spin off another established religion.” – (That is what Christianity is – a spin-off from Judaism.)

”o Make sure to start preaching to the poor and simple-minded…” – (That is what Jesus did. Taught to the poor, disenfranchised – the bulk of his followers. Note I said not all but the bulk.)

”o To ensure success, make sure your theology is sweetened and bias in favour of man...” – (I think there would be a lot of people who would agree that the Christian church is very patriarchal and men-centric.)

”o You will get sympathetic hearing by saying nice thing about children…” – (again, something that Jesus did quite a bit.)

”o Let man be the master in a marriage and decree that the primary duty of women is to breed…” – (Not in so many words but a look at the history of the Christian church, which certainly put women in a subservient role.)

“o Make a requirement that believers are to spread the religion.” – (Sounds very evangelical and missionary to me.)

”o Make confident claims that you have obtained words directly from god…” – (Again, Jesus claims as do some other Christian representatives – does Pope come to mind?)

“There is NO god called Allah and Mohammad is only a messenger of his own imagination” – (Allah is the Christian God. And the Muslims even recognise Jesus as a prophet. How strange you argue against Islam but don’t know this?)

I won’t bother addressing your claim regarding my religious understanding – that was a pointless comment on your part.

GZ, you missed the point of my post – I simply was pointing out that a good majority of the reasons you claim Islam is wrong, ironically are reasons equally applicable to Christianity. To paraphrase, people in glass houses should not throw stones…

GZ, your language suggests you’re from another country? At any rate, welcome and good fortune.

BD,
Not having a technical knowledge of the vilification laws in Victoria (or anywhere else), I would be horrified to see it so. If so, I’m disappointed in the legislators. But please, no discourse on the recent Victorian events – that’s a different topic.

Before I continue, I wanted to say that your response on this occasion was the first time I detected no (or very little) ‘attitude’. Very polite this time and I appreciate that.

Now, to respond.

I appreciate your position – that you are ‘shining the light’. However, I think you fail to appreciate that your light is not that of others. In fact, other’s light (mine included) does not agree with yours. My somewhat varied experience with religion is that faith is a personal journey and contains a considerable amount of personal interpretation. I think this can be validated due to the plethora of versions of Christianity. I also believe the same can be said for Islam – again, the variety of responses to incidents about the world, indeed the variety of living conditions for ‘infidels’ in Islamic countries about the world supports this view.

I also appreciate that you have lived under trying conditions in an Islamic country. These experiences will of course impress on your view. However, as the world of some 3 billion Muslims are not all strapping on bombs or ‘persecuting infidels’, I think it a great leap to claim that the religion is dangerous. I agree that currently, there appears to be a very strict interpretation of Islam prevalent in the world. In past days, Christianity was similarly operating. To apply a previous argument of yours (applied to Christianity’s history), the current nature of Islam can be directly attributed to extremist leaders looking to buy personal power and manipulate congregations.

I think Ifran and Ash would agree that Islam can exist peacefully in a free/democratic society, if led by moderates, as Christianity is (in the majority at any rate) today.

Having said this, I do not intend to ‘attack’ you…

I’ve run out of words and will continue in due course.

Here's my impression of lisamaree...

She typifies a simplistic individual who can quite conveniently excuses herself of inadequacy, both intellectually and linguistically, so that it then makes it kind of alright for her to make naive generalisation on the one hand and then on the other indulges in a bit of self-righteousness through her rebukes of others for comments that she, by her inadequate logic, considers are hateful generalisation.

I wouldn't waste my time on her comments... She probably has a Lebanese Muslim boyfriend anyway.

Except to say if all Aussies are as 'tolerant', 'understanding', 'accepting' and as NAIVE as her, then Australia is doomed.

What good is a good heart with only half a brain ?

Hi Reason,

You mentioned only 7 points. Had I shot my foot and discredited Christianity even before discrediting Islam?

o (Christianity..spin-off..) No, Jesus didn't start a 'religion'. Didn't have to because he is God himself. Christianity is a continuation of Judaism, not spin-off. Mohammad preached distinctly different theology, yet leverage off both when it suited him. There is a big difference between claiming you're God as opposed to you preaching about another pathway to God.

o (..Jesus did. Taught to the poor...) You missed my point about taking advantage of simple-mindedness, with a bad twist. In any case Jesus preached to anyone, everyone.

o (...Christian church...men-centric.) Doesn't that describe your workplace too? Again you made a poor comparison. Rather I suspect the opposite- Christianity is not very 'successful' at all especially when Christians like you tend to throw stones at churches.

o (...saying nice thing about children...) Again you missed the ethos in my argument. In Islam children are pragmatic advantages whereas Jesus loves children. Seen that picture of Muslim children carrying arms?

o (...Christian church...women...subservient role.) Easy to criticise the church, isn't it? You are in fact the church of Christ. So ask yourself whether Jesus tells you to regard women the way Islam does. I think you make a dreadful comparison.

o (..evangelical and missionary) Provided you believe Jesus preached conquer,plunder, convert by force, and have a notion of destroying everything non-Christian.

o (..Jesus claims as do some other...) Yes Jesus claimed to be the God. Mohammad found a religion but did not claim to be God. Big difference.

o (Allah is the Christian God...) How strange that coming from a Christian like yourself...Are you making a profoundly logical statement? You truly do not know what you believe in.

Nice try, but you obviously missed my points, badly, not due to brevity either. To you Islam and Christianity are the same.

Re your glasshouse ethos - I rather hope there are more wise people who would stand up and be challenged. Afterall who can count on someone who is quite muddled in his belief.

Thanks for kind words

Philo, tell me of your personal experience on missions and pastoral leases during the 50's, as the son a government official liaising with missions and pastoralists as I was.

My fathers notes and diaries, tell of the terror inflicted upon them, by the god fearing self righteous.

This included mental and physical abuse, violent condemnation of them when they wouldn't accept what they were being brainwashed with.

Threats of going to hell when they didn't wear shoes or clothes when we were playing together. Being constantly told how shameful and evil they were for not covering up. Forced removal of those that didn't toe the line.

The terrorism, vilification of their beleifs, the destruction of their way of life, that was forced upon these people by the religious and pastoralists, was typical of how religion conducts itself throughout the world. But the religious always blame others,

At least most pastoralists let them live their life when they weren't' working, but not the missionaries. Do what you are told or gods wrath will strike you down, was the line they would use.

I was assaulted by a missionary when I told my friends to not take any notice of them, really loving that was. But you are right about me philo your religious illness tells you so, just forget the facts they don't count in gods work, just the fantasy.

We then could turn to the terrorism inflicted upon those that were unlucky enough to find themselves in a church run home or orphanage, but your illness will just dismiss those facts as irrelevant to the work of your god.

I don't hear the church apologising for their actions, or the huge amount of terror they inflicted on the young with sexual abuse that is still going on in the name of god. It won't be long before the next set of evangelists is caught out, ripping of people and abusing them. You can bet your bible on that.

As to leaving them in the past, your mob is taking them back 2000 years

GreaZy TAN, I'm quite flattered that you've dedicated a whole post just to me ;-)

For those of you who are more interested in finding out about the substance of the anti-terrorism legislation, and less interested in prejudicial religious debate, I recommend you read Jenny Hocking's book, "Terror Laws: ASIO, Counter-Terrorism and the Threat to Democracy". She published the book two years ago, after the first passage of the new ASIO Terrorism legislation. At that time we had a few more thinkers in the Senate who were able to force the removal of particularly draconian sections, such as the indefinite, rolling detention of children. Even then the passage of the new legislation gave ASIO greater powers than the Patriot Act gives the Office of Homeland Security. Now our government is convincing a cowed public that they need even stronger laws. Only this time innocent people who "might" know something can be detained without access to legal representation. These laws become a victory for the terrorists who can now leave it up to our own governments to terrorise any citizen who disagrees with them.

Thankyou TF for your refreshing post. I agree. There's plenty of expertise here from some very (religiously) well-informed people but without any direction. Breeding Fear and Loathing in australia will only spread paranoia. By the way, my neighbour has some lebanese friends that visit from time to time. Maybe I should alert her to the fact that they all are under suspicion of being gang-rapists, and convince her to alert the authorities of their strange eating habits?

Dear lisamaree,
You are as naive as you're cute...

With love,
GZ

lisamarie - you are not Australian... you disrespect those grils who were gang raped.

keep on taking those valiums -

if 'friends of the neighbours' is the closest you have come to Lebanese Muslims, then I am laughing at you -

...just beacuase you have not seen the conflict of Islamic culture in Australian society, in particular in Sydney, it does not mean that it is not happening - i refer to the above post outlining 'some' of the publicised happenings - adress the content of the post or shut up!

Alchemist,

I note your agreeable comments on the multi_Culti_stone thread.

Your experience of interaction with Missionaries in rural Australia is interesting, as is your mention of Sarawak/Sabah, as it’s my old stamping ground. (what did you observe there ? I’m interested) I also have stories of governmentworkers.

EMOTIVE
You used some terminology that was quite emotive, even more, it was like you have some kind of pathological hatred for anything Christian, which worries me a bit, because I don’t find it balanced or rational. I mean.. by your tone, you would be hanging, drawing and quartering even Mother Theresa as some kind of psychopathic demon in nun’s clothing. I doubt you could find anything of value in her work, because you make ‘blanket’ condemnations of all.

HONESTY
I’ll be brutally honest with you, we did have a couple of lady missionaries I know of among our team who did dangle the stick of ‘God will punish’ over some people, in regard to some acts, usually the immoral kind and guess what ? There are 2 of the indigenous people here in Melbourne (Kelabit tribe) who recounted this to me. We had a great chat, and now they have seen past this ‘turn or burn’ improper use of the Gospel, and understand that God actually LOVEs them. The problem in that case was not the gospel of Gods love and forgiveness, but an unbalanced presentation of it.

ASSAULTED ?
I can’t challenge what you said about being “assaulted” as you describe it by some missionary in central Australia, but I’d like to have been a fly on the wall on the day, perhaps there are things you are not telling us about that incident ? Perhaps it was you who instigated it ? If your serious, you can still lay charges, because there is no statute of limitations on an indictable offence (violent attacks are such).

Why not try to work through some of your pain, I don’t mind helping.

GZ,
Again you miss the point – let me spell it out for you.

The points I highlighted in your post are equally applicable to Christianity as to Islam. I do not deny that Islam has it’s problems – as does Christianity. I simple highlight that to belittle one with certain claims is hypocritical as some of those claims can be applied to the other. Clear?

Tiring as it is, I will address a few of your rebuttals.

Spin-off: I do not think that Judaism would agree that Christianity is a continuation. Jews deny the deity of Jesus. However, Jesus recognised the history of the Jews and the God they worshipped, claiming the same for himself. Further, Mohammed recognised both Judaism and Christianity as worshiping the same God as he, just that he proposed to be the next (and last) prophet of that God. If that is not worshipping the same God, then I don’t know what is. If the ‘redirection’ of a faith by a new proponent is not spin-off, what is?

Evangelical and Missionary: A close look at history will show that Christianity has as much to be guilty of concerning plundering, torturing and forcible conversion as Islam. The fact that Christianity currently does not, does not mitigate its history – or the dangers of zealous preaching in the future.

Jesus claims: My point here is that Jesus claimed divine being – much as Mohammed claimed divine guidance. Both claimed a divine mandate (to be God or speak for God is little difference if they are only claims).

I don’t have enough space to continue. Suffice to say, I am only stating that if you make claims about one, be prepared to see some of them reflected. I never claimed them to be the same, just similar – they both claim the family of Abraham as their historical start point.

May I ask, were you ever a Muslim?

Islam is dangerous for two reasons:

(1) Religious reason
Jesus is the God in Christianity. The Arab word for God is Allah. Hence it was easy for Mohammad to tell people that Allah and Christian God is one and the same. Then came Mohammad's deceptive twist- Jesus cannot be God because there is only one God. Hence Jesus was lowered to prophet status in Islam, even ranking lower than Mohammad himself.

Another important deceptive twist- Mohammad wouldn't say that Jews are Allah-chosen people. He couldn't stand that idea. Instead he preached that Jews and Christians are 'people of the book' and are 'protected' as long as they follow the 'true' faith. Sounds like a sensible conditions huh. Behold it became very easy for him to then turn around and accuse the Jews and Christians for deviating from the 'truth', hence are to be punished.

-> Islam is dangerous for misdirecting people to turn to a false god that Mohammad had made up to persecute his enemies.

(Does this remind of Bible mentions of false prophets towards the end times?)

(2) Threat to freedom and democracy
It's a number game in a Western democracy. If there are more Muslims than non-Muslims, then Islam wins. Unfortunately Islam is slowing winning, simply because the religion encourages a high birthrate. (These days you don't count on the Catholics to produce more babies to lever off with the Muslims.)

No amount of time will tranform Islam as part of western democracy because, unlike Marxism/Communism which faded away, Islam is regarded as from 'god' (albeit wrongly). Hence it will stick around, cannot change and will not change.

-> Islam is dangerous for democracy.

Hi Reason,

The Jews are still awaiting their messiah who had already come in the body of Jesus. Had they accepted Jesus as their saviour, today you would probably be calling yourself Baptist/Presbyterian 'Judaist' instead of Baptist/Presbyterian 'Christian'. That the Jews did not accept Jesus as their messiah is a separate matter. Also Jesus was Jewish. Mohammad was not.

Regarding criticism on Islam being reflected on Christianity. I'd say on careful analysis, most would be found unfair reflection. I understood your position very well from the start. But some things are far better said then not.

When people are able to clearly differentiate between Islam and Christianity, they should see them in different lights.

For instance, Jesus preached love, a Godly quality that embodies selflessness.

Mohammad simply could not bring himself to preach love, as that would have made him a pussy warrior and it would be difficult for people not to see him as a hypocrite. He settled on calling Islam a religion of 'peace' and 'submission'. Wise choice, under the difficult circumstances.

Kiss my foot... peace and submission aren't even virtues but something with distinctly selfish undertones. Those are subjective terms which mean different things to different people under different circumstances. This is part and parcel of a false religion that is rich in doublespeak and deceptions - a religion that talks about peace, but then encourages an attack on others for not being submissive to Allah.

I came from an Islamic country. But I was never a Muslim.

...the truth will set you free- Jesus

GZTan, “a religion that talks about peace, but then encourages attacks on others for not being submissive to Allah.” What is the difference if we changed a couple of words of that, a religion that talks about peace, but then encourages attacks,for not being submissive to God.

Religion has terrorised people since its inception. All godhead religious factions are the same, you all worship the same god. You all continue to mentally terrorise everyone you come into contact with in your missionaries towards hell. How can you vilify those that constantly impart violence upon the world in whatever form they can find.

BD, I doubt that you would have the ticker to investigate and accept the historical archives relating to the works of missionaries throughout Australia during the last century. That may mean you have to accept something that goes against your programmed indoctrination.

Sarawak, Sabah, 1963-65, a member of the Naval FESR dive team. Liaising with native chiefs and missionaries to combat the incursion.

Watched missionaries working with the people without their knowledge on many occasions, very different to when we personally dropped in. I watched as those who lived there cowered under the verbal terror some missionaries used to frighten and subdue them.

Christian hater, one of my closest friends was the late Rev Mario Schoenmacker head of the I.C.A. and others from the hierachy of christian churches. It is irrelevant as to what you believe, it is how you implement that belief and the example to others that you give that counts. I left the church for that reason, as the example it provides is totally the opposite to what it preaches.

Universal love, whilst beating people around the head with constant tirades of irrelevant mythical scripture, terror and vilification. It would be good to see all the religious standing before their god and explaining why they are the way they are. Could it be that they are in the image of their god and thats why he doesn't intervene.

Don't drop in the free choice rubbish, that is just a typical irresponsible cope out.

Hi The alchemist,

We can consciously exercise our freewill to obey or not to obey Jesus's teaching at any point in time. It is human nature, not Christianity per say. For instance I'm here to reveal the danger about Islam, not to love like Jesus did. It is my conscious decision, not in the name of Jesus/Christianity. I'd be doing this even if I'm an athiest.

You get the bad missionaries but don't forget there are lots of other good works that you don't know about. Just like your mood swing, hopefully there are more good days than bad. It is not the fault of Christianity. Humans are fallible.

Religion is here to stay. You have no choice. No religion does not equal Utopia - Just look at Marxism and Communism.

Your comment: "It is irrelevant as to what you believe"

Not so. You'd be better off with the ethos of Christianity, or you prefer others. I don't care.

Your comment: "...it is how you implement....that counts."

I agree. Like the Bible says, your body is the church of Christ. It is really YOU that matters. How YOU practise what you believe, rather than pointing a finger at church/missionaries.

GZ

im an athiest, not keen on any god stuff, thing is tho its the xtians who will let me freely walk down the main road in my jesus sucks t shirt (not that they would love that and not that'd id bother) its the Islamists who wont let me have that freedom.

can you imagine the uproar LOL

Good on you and the other xtians here as well as all the people supporting our freedom and cultural pride in the west.

Dear GZ and Thor,
OK you may think me naive, disrespectful, etc etc. I don't mind you thinking that. But it doesn't mean my opinions aren't valid. I think I represent the "norm", if I can call it that, ie, I would have similar values and lifestyle to that of most people from western ("christian") cultures. I am uni educated. I work full-time and socialise on the weekends. I have many acquaintances and a handful of real friends. I do not spend a lot of time on the internet. I came to this forum because I'm interested in what's going on. I keep abreast of current affairs, but I am definitely not an expert like you. I believe that the knowledge and education that you have is a gift that should be chanelled positively. What's the point in being so smart if you only have your own singular perspectives? I have travelled o/s to muslim countries, altho briefly, but long enuff to be shocked and horrified at their treatment of women. However I was treated with respect for my different beliefs and culture. And Thor, I live in Sydney and have seen conflict of Islamic culture in Australian society (both ways). All I am saying is if we all begin on the premise of respect, it may be a small step in the right direction.

Lisa... yes.. well said..

We need the freedom to vent our spleens but also, and more importantly, we should be looking at the issue of policy based approaches to solving many of these complex social issues.

If we don't we will end up like the USA where an illegal immigrant who was assaulted by a rancher protecting his property, ended up being given the Ranchers RANCH.. ! -by a weird set of circumstances.
When assylum seekers can illegally come here and then SUE our government, its time for radical re-assessment of our legal system.

GZ and THOR (and Benjamin and others) may have had similar or worse experiences than myself in their encounters with Islam. They maybe more concerned that people are not aware of the true nature of this supposedly peaceful faith.
I think once people (like yourself) can interact on these issues with a fully informed mind, they will probably then back off a bit, and take more of a 'policy' direction. I could be wrong, but thats my sense of things.

So, don't take any comeback at yourself too personally ok :)
Maybe its a flag to do some digging. If you look at Peter Farris QC web blog and see his reading list, it is quite comprehensive, though I'd like to see more from Islamic sources in it. (there are some very impassioned contributors to that blog, so be warned)

I guess we tend to 'shout' our views out of fear that 'no one is awake up to all this'. Hopefully we can all become more aware, informed and motivated to re-capture our own culture, perhaps extend it to be a bit more inclusive, yet also recognize dangers. S.W.A.T. analysis :) if you will, for the business minded.

I find the diversity of opinion very inriching. It always challenges me, and motivates me to learn more.

Blessings to all

Dear lisamaree,

See-not, hear-not and speak-not, if this vaguely tells you about 'respect', then I, as an Asian should be the one lecturing you.

Not at all surprised that you've enjoyed good hospitality in Islamic countries...people went out of their way...opportunity to impress. Perhaps an entire village may rejoice if you'd just become one of them.

Ever suggested something as innocent as "Mohammad was only a man" to your Muslim hosts, and sensed how the cordial atmosphere suddenly became tense? Well, a NZ fella did said "your god is not true" to his Muslim host overseas and he was jailed for that. So much for friendship. Had I said the same thing to Muslims in my hometown, I won't be around today. As for a sweet young western girl like you, perhaps all you'd get is a gentle rebuke about that respect thingy.

Perhaps you think that NZ fella deserved what he got for being disrespectful. But the point is, that friendliness you have experienced, may in fact be only waffer thin, partly built on that notion of respect: see-not, hear-not and speak-not. It is untested, and in fact, cannot be tested- It breaks.

So leave your western conscience behind and enjoy your mid-east exotic experience...next stop Iran...back via Indonesia, and ignore the cries of victims of Islamic radicals in Muluku and Poso. Just be careful with your baggage.

It's not respect that will move us away from the ever increasing danger of civilisation clash. What is needed is brave direct confrontation of the evil. Didn't you watch ABC Lateline yesterday? Tony Jones interviewed Irshad Manji, the author of "The Trouble with Islam". She bravely confronted the issue headon- Islam needs reformation!!

Irshad's getting death-threats for that stance. Here's a poetic one:

Roses are Red
Her Blood is redder
God wants her DEAD
And we promise Him We’ll get her

I have respect for 'Muslims', one likes Irshad. But 'respect' will NOT save us from Islam. There has to be a lot more like her for the evil of Islam to be exposed, removed and painted over by Muslims THEMSELVES.

RELIGIOUS REALITY

Televangelist Calls for Chavez' Death
By Associated Press

VIRGINIA BEACH, Va. - Religious broadcaster Pat Robertson suggested on-air that American operatives assassinate Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to stop his country from becoming "a launching pad for communist infiltration and Muslim extremism."
"We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability," Robertson said Monday on the Christian Broadcast Network's "The 700 Club."
"We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator," he continued. "It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."
Chavez has emerged as one of the most outspoken critics of President Bush, accusing the United States of conspiring to topple his government and possibly backing plots to assassinate him. U.S. officials have called the accusations ridiculous.
"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it," Robertson said. "It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war ... and I don't think any oil shipments will stop."
Robertson, 75, founder of the Christian Coalition of America and a former presidential candidate, accused the United States of failing to act when Chavez was briefly overthrown in 2002.
Electronic pages and a message to a Robertson spokeswoman were not immediately returned Monday evening.
Venezuela is the fifth largest oil exporter and a major supplier of oil to the United States. The CIA estimates that U.S. markets absorb almost 59 percent of Venezuela's total exports.
Venezuela's government has demanded in the past that the United States crack down on Cuban and Venezuelan "terrorists" in Florida who they say are conspiring against Chavez.
Robertson has made controversial statements in the past. In October 2003, he suggested that the State Department be blown up with a nuclear device. He has also said that feminism encourages women to "kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians."

I wonder how many of you have read the article in the current issue of The Economist, comparing the present hysteria over world terrorism with the similar experiences with "anarchists" at the end of the nineteenth century?

http://www.economist.com/displaystory.cfm?story_id=4292760

It might just help put two things into perspective. One, terrorism is a permanent part of the world we live in, and two, the actual number of terrorists who are prepared to die for their beliefs constitute a very small percentage of the group with which they claim affiliation.

What appears to be consistent across the centuries is the reaction of the various governments, and the lack of impact of the measures that they took.

Thanks Alchemist I did suspect you were a supporter of the likes of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.

The term "terrorism" as we see it in the West is foreign to how Al-Qaeda see terrorists. They see the opponents of Allah as the real terrorists i.e. the Americans who remove the covenant of shari'ah law of Allah from the nations under Islamic rule. Al-Quida have many sympathisers in the West who deplore the action of the USA in Iraq and Afganistan etc; and consider America the real terrorists in the world today. They believe they are administering the true justice of Allah upon a decadent society, not terrorising a nation.

The term terrorist has a different conotation in Islam, it means a wicked person who fights against Allah. What we see as terrorism they see as right and just upon an unholy people. So we in the West must be aware of the Islamic denial -"Osama is not a terrorist he is a true Muslim standing his ground against an evil Nation who will terrorise the people of Allah".

Philo

Thank you for your last post. Very informative.

The Greens Party are deceived by their opposition to USA's involvement in Afganistan and Iraq by their "No War" chants.

They attract the Muslims who express outrage at the USA, while accomodating the homosexuals agenda. These two groups hold opposing positions on same sex marriage. This is in contrast to the West who want a free and open secular society in Afganistan and Iraq who outlaw shari'ah law in its strict application. Application that would kill homosexuals. Muslims will use disenting groups in our society that will vacilitate their ultimate cause. They are masters of deception, as they believe Allah deceives the unsuspecting infidels. [Sura 4: 143 "God will not let the unbelievers triumph over the faithful. The hypocrites seek to deceive God, but it is He who will deceive them."]

PERICLES

The situation you allude to, is one which will occur IF.... the goverenment does not take a pro-active stance EARLY.

A responsible government will not wait till things are volatile and bordering on out of control (Like UK) and then use the problem to whip up 'us/them' ism to prop up their own position.

No, what they will do, is identify trends in demographics and take action responsibly to maintain harmony before it leads to the types of conditions you referred to.

Boaz, did you actually read the article in question?

The situation is not one that "will occur, IF", it is one that exists right now in many countries. We have been attacked, if you like, by proxy (Bali), and our reaction has been as wildly unfocussed as that of any other country. If you read these pages as I know you do, you will have to acknowledge that there is a groundswell of us/them happening here, today.

Your pseudo-solution, "identify trends in demographics and take action responsibly to maintain harmony" is as unrealistic as ever - did you ever see the TV programme "Yes Minister"? That should give you an idea how long and how effective any government "action" will be in this situation.

Rather than "combat terrorism" as some form of separate, somehow mystical activity, we should ensure that we have fair and robust laws that defend our freedom (as opposed to the current trend to take it away at every opportunity) and the fortitude to enforce them without fear or favour across the entire community.

And that does not extend to legislating against headgear.