FIONA
The reason I challenged you after your "Mr Christianity" post, re bastardization of faiths etc, is that you are long on condemnation, and short on solution, so I tried to distill it down to some major chewable issues. Yet, you respond with 'nuance, checksquares, etc.

If you are going to be passionate about 'condemning' and 'throwing the first stone' you have to also defend your 'lack of sin' so to speak. i.e. put forward a position or solution which will do more than just 'tear down'. You condemn Bush, and mock his faith, (err last time I checked also, he is not Christ, but a man, and subject to human failings).

But more important, given he choice between a Bush led democractic and free Iraq, and a Sadaam genocide/slaughter/torture/oppression, you just give 'nuance' etc........ don't you realize how shallow that appears ? One is tempted to draw some quite unsavory conclusions as to your real motivation/purpose. (when added to your thoughts expressed in other threads)

I made my position pretty clear, and stand by it. How about doing the forum the same service ?

You did make one pertinent point, about the bastardization of faiths in the political sense. This has been occuring since Constantine declared the Empire "Christian", but prior to that, the only problem was heresy and unholy living by individual Christians.

JUSTDAN
Didn't mean to ignore your question, snowed under with things :)
Ghandi, it is not for us to judge people. God does that. We proclaim Christ. Ghandi was a sinner just like us. He will answer for his position. One thing he said "If the Christians acted as the gospel teaches, India would be Christian". So, he knew the gospel.

Read my last post, boazdavid.

BASTARDIZATION OF FAITH.? or the "ACTUAL" faith....

For the likes of Fiona, Garra, who only see 'bigoted fundamentalist' when they see our posts against 'Islam' (not Muslims)
Here is some information about how some MAJORITY status Muslims perceive their faith "Islam.com"

http://islam.com/reply.asp?id=477507&ct=9&mn=477507 <== read this !

See how:

a) Quran
b) Hadith (Bukari/Muslim)
c) Histories (Tabari, Ibn Ishaq)
d) Life practice of Mohammed (as revealed in the above, the SUNNAH)

all support and outline what I have been contending all along, which is that at the 'foundation' of the faiths, there is a VAST GULF of difference, when contrasted with that established by Christ and the Apostles.

Quran 33:26
“Allah took down the People of the Scripture Book. He cast terror into their hearts. Some you slew, and some you made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, giving you a land which you had not traversed before. And Allah has power over all things.

This refers to a massacre of Jews

Hadith: "fleshing out" the above. Bhukhari Vol4 No 280

Then Sad came and sat beside Allah's Apostle who said to him. "These people are ready to accept your judgement." Sad said, "I give the judgement that their warriors should be killed and their children and women should be taken as prisoners." The Prophet then remarked, "O Sad! You have judged amongst them with (or similar to) the judgement of the King Allah

Histories:

Tabari VIII:35/Ishaq:464 “The Jews were made to come down, and Allah’s Messenger imprisoned them. Then the Prophet went out into the marketplace of Medina (it is still its marketplace today), and he had trenches dug in it. He sent for the Jewish men and had them beheaded in those trenches. They were brought out to him in batches. They numbered 800 to 900 boys and men.

"Sugar Free" Mohammed
Hadith Muslim 16 -4131
(the Holy Prophet). He commanded about them, and (thus) their hands and feet were cut off and their eyes were gouged and then they were thrown in the sun, until they died.

Let truth speak

BD,

Interesting you are using terrorism ideology and references.

The Quran 33:26 refers to the judgement on those who ‘deceived and betrayed during the time of war” referred to in 33:22. I am sure you knew that, yet you pursue the intentional misleading and vilification.

There is no ‘sugar quoting/ sugar free Mohammed: the narrated hadith (which you never quote or refer to) talks about his spirituality, then his actions as a firm leader in times of war. Which ironically enough, will be in Jesus‘s second coming in our belief.

After many postings, I can only say that you deliberately confuse legal system in Islam with the spiritual message for an agenda that only God and you know about. If you think your faith is so good, I am sure you can prove it without attacking Islam. I agree a lot of Muslims, like others will do horrible things; there is no magic solution to evil.

Please don't refer to the "truth speaks" beacuse you are intentionally far from it. Hope the blinker drops,

AK

To all posters

The more I read the postings here, the more confused I become. I am a Christian white born Australian (of Irish and Polynesian extraction). I would like to understand more about this debate.

Is there anyone who can clearly explain in a few paragraphs the separate meanings of Islam and Muslim? That's where I am stuck - so that the remainder of the debate remains way beyond me. As a result I have nothing to contribute - except my ignorance.

Thank you

I believe (and I am no authority, I'm trying to remember a Uni course several years ago!) that "Islam" means the religion (like say "christianity"), whereas "Muslims" are the followers of Islam (so like the equvialent of "christians"). Hope this is correct! :)