Kaktuz,

The full verse you refer to:
2:189 And fight those who fight you and shall not transgress.
2:190 Slay them where you find them and chase them out (of your land) from wher they chased you out and don’t fight them at the holy mosque unless they fight you first..
2:191 Until they stop their aggression so if they do don’t fight them God is merciful and forgiving.

There is no cherry picking except by people like you and BD.
A $9.95 translation of the Quoran by Pickthall or Oxford have the same meanings.

Sorry won’t be responding to your ‘intellectually deceitful postings’.

BD/Philo,

I am aware of what your religion teaches.

We are not allowed to compare prophets but you have this luxury of comparing and judging.

BD, as mentioned above, I will respond to smart intellectual postings and not your misleading postings.

Cheers,

Fellow Human,
Just a quick note to let you know that there are many average non-Muslims out there who do not alienate or denounce your beliefs. Keep reveal the truth of your faith and be strong. There is no reason why religions cannot co-exist and I look forward to the days when Islam, Judaism, Christianity, all the other beliefs and secularism can work together to contribute peace and good will to this world.

PBUY Brother.

FH, You're the one that mentioned self-defense, not I. I just said that "Kill them wherever you find them" is a rather strange idea of self-defense. In fact, it's a good translation; most modern Muslim translators prefer not to use "trangressors" because that opens a can of worms (who are the transgressors?). They prefer "aggressors" or "those who fight against you" ...a dubious translation, but much easier to explain to infidels (aka transgressors).

FH, I really don't care if you reply to my posts. I do this because I want people to think. I want people to study the issues, ask questions, read the Koran, visit Islamic sites (ex:Islamonline.com or Soundvision.com) and www.faithfreedom.org (a Muslim favorite, specially the debates), read the discussions at OLO or BjornStaerk, talk to Muslims and to non-Muslims that have lived under Islam - and then make up their minds. Does anybody have a problem with this?

I did not question the context of that verse, just your "self-defense" remark. I did mention the context of the one about "killing all of mankind".

It must be said the gods (small g) have a sense of humor. They gave Muslims this great verse "…whoever kills a man … it is as if the killed all of mankind." In fact, it is so good that Muslims just have to use it. They can't resist the temptation. The problem is that they commit intellectual whoredom by doing so (excuse the hyperbole, but it's appropriate) because they know they are using it out of context, but the temptation is just too great. Most of the time they get away with it, because people are too ignorant or PC to say "that's wrong!".

Would any of you Muslims care to tell me the first few words of this great verse (5:32) and who it is talking about, and please explain why they are always omitted when Muslim quote it. There is also the matter of the little exception clause in the middle that is also often excluded, sometimes with "…" and more often without any indication that parts are missing.

Lesson 5 on self-defense:
Matthew. 24:4 Jesus said: “Watch out that no-one deceives you.
5 Many will come in my name, claiming, `I am the Christ,’
[Or Messiah] and will deceive.
6 You will hear of wars and rumours of wars, but see that
you are not alarmed. …
…
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to
death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will
betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will
grow cold,
13 he who endures faithful to the end will be saved.

Matthew 6: 38 An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 but I say unto you, resist not him that is evil:
but whosoever smites you on thy right cheek,
turn to him the other.

Lesson 6:
Luke. 11:46 Jesus replied, “And you experts in the law, woe to you,
because you load people with burdens they can hardly
carry, and you will not lift one finger to help them.
47 “You build tombs for the prophets, and
it was your forefathers who killed them.
48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did;
they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs.
49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, `I will send them
prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others
they will persecute.’
50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the
blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the
beginning of the world,
51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was
killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this
generation will be held responsible for it all.
52 “You experts in the law, have taken
away the key to knowledge. You have not
entered, and you have hindered those who were entering.”
[contwhichprophetdowefollow?]

F.H. now u make it incumbent on me to respond, and give balance to what you said in your last post.

Firstly THANKyou for demonstrating my very point, which was that Islam has an unbroken line of violence associated with the defense and propogation of the faith. You would say it is always 'defensive' and then, that the limits cannot be transgressed, but you also know that Mohamed had people EXECUTED "Some you killed, some you took captive" with the Battle of (genocide of) Banu Qurayza as the background. He also made numerous RAIDs.. (offensive)

That is from the Quran, so let there be no accusation of 'cherry picking' as you put it, as my point was soundly validated by not only the verses (whether they are defensive or offensive makes no difference to my 'point' about violence) but also by your expanding of them.

You would also be aware of the Hadith (which is the foundation along with the Quran for Islamic law) where in one mouthful it is 'condemned' to cut down trees of enemies then in the next mouthful it is suddenly 'allowed'. This also applies to the killing of women and children. "Forbidden....then "circumstances where it is persmissable" Please don't make me drag up chapter and verse, I believe you know these already. (but if I must, I will)

One very obvious reason you are not allowed to 'compare prophets' is that compared to Christ, who told Johns disiples "Go, tell John, that the blind receive there sight, the sick are healed, the crippled made whole, the dead raised" when they asked him "Are you the one who is to come, or shall we look for another"... there IS no comparison.

F.H. you say u love Jesus, .. I ask 'which' Jesus, the 'pruned down' humanized Islamic version ? or the Biblical one ? the one who is God manifest in the Flesh, Son of man/Son of God, "In Him dwells the fullnes of Godhead bodily".... is it this one?

Reason,

Your nickname is a context of who you are.
Your encouragement will give me more resilience!

PBUY

Kaktuz,

I don’t mind other opinions and sites ( I actually see all these sites including infidels.com, scripturesofAmerica.org, etc..).
I just see them as ‘cheap sales’ and not religious debates as you call them.
When a site blabbers how good their religion is and then deceive and misrepresent the Islamic faith it means (to me) that they don’t follow their own teachings.

Not sure what you mean about blanks in the translations: The verse 5:29 onwards talk about the sons of Adam and 5:32 talks about the Israelites. (Children of Jacob and those who follows Moses teachings).

BD,

You forgot we talked about this topic before and I explained the logic behind it.

The only difference between the Islamic version and the Christian version of Jesus is whether he was God/Son of God.
I believe the Islamic version of Jesus story because it makes more sense to me. Paul’ theory no matter how noble his intent was comes with a heavy price of wiping out the first commandment “God is One”. The issue with that (for me) it is taking your faith out of the monotheism camp or at least keep you on the fence.

The issue with you guys is that you never really debated or thought of this issue long enough throught your history.

Peace