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The Forum > Article Comments > No one Muslim fits all > Comments

No one Muslim fits all : Comments

By Waleed Aly, published 2/9/2005

Waleed Aly argues John Howard's meeting with Muslim leaders ended up pleasing no one.

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Paul never used Jesus birth to identify his divine authority; he hardly mentions it. Paul uses Jesus resurrection as approval to accept Jesus divine authority. Jesus conception doesn't identify him as God; it identifies him as Saviour. God was manifest in his words, actions, attitudes and character. It's these things that identify God was manifest in Jesus. Don’t just believe his words. Observe his life; similarly God is manifest in more than doctrine and law. God is manifest in action, attitude character and wisdom. His holy sinless life was exactly the expression of the Spirit of God to man – follow him.

You misrepresent Paul who taught there is but one God and Jesus has made him known.

Quote, “Paul’ theory no matter how noble his intent was comes with a heavy price of wiping out the first commandment “God is One”. The issue with that (for me) it is taking your faith out of the monotheism camp or at least keep you on the fence”
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What does the “Judaea Christian” values mean?
The former foundations of Western Society has been built upon the moral and ethical values of Judaism while interpreting them with the compassion and forgiveness of Christ. We don't stone adulterous women or unbelievers, but rather counsel them to repentance, forgiveness and faith. Unbelievers are not lesser persons, but are potential saints. As Jesus taught it rains on the just and the unjust without discrimination, so we should also bless the unjust. Believers are not better people only forgiven of their offences.

To say that Western Nations are today Christian is a sweeping statement as it depends on who is educating the conscience of the nation. Most moral values today is taught in Television programmes and represents the evil of human behaviour from the lives of its scriptwriters. Few people attend religious and ethical studies, they act on what appeals to their base ego. “If it fells good, it must be OK”. The Christian’s conscience holds one back from self-indulgence and teaches responsibility for others and our personal action.
Posted by Philo, Thursday, 22 September 2005 1:06:25 AM
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Fellow_Human,
The Roman Church doctrine of Jesus being a Son of God is based upon the sourse of sperm that fathered him. The Qur’an 3: 47 gives implication to the performance of a divine miracle by God implanting Jesus in the womb of Mary without human sperm. “’Lord’ Mary said, ‘How can I bear a child when no man has touched me? God replied: ‘Even thus. God creates whom He will. When He decrees a thing He need only say: ”Be” and it is.‘”

This is not the teaching of the New Testament, it identifies that the seed came by a rod out of lineage of David and is a specially selacted child to be a Saviour. The conception account by James the son of Joseph states the eligible young men from the lineage of David were summoned by Zecharias to bring their rods to the Temple. Zacharias acted upon the precedent set by Isaiah 11:1 And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD.

Recognising Jesus as "God" has nothing to do with his physical person [John 1: 12 - 14]. It has everything to do with the demeanour, character, attitudes, wisdom, actions, words and life. To recognise Jesus is the Son of God is the acknowledgement that in these spiritual qualities his spirit was God incarnate [expressed in human character]. It does not mean he is a seperate god, it means he expressed the purity and mind of God. God is not a physical being with limited dimension; He is the omnipresent spirit that is expressed through his Creation. In man he is expressed by godly behaviour.

Nowhere does God speak directly to Mary as identified in the Qur'an, but a messenger from the Temple well known to her, who was responsible for protecting the divine revelation given to Israel
Posted by Philo, Friday, 23 September 2005 8:59:48 AM
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Account by James son of Joseph present at Jesus birth.

James 8:12 The priest said unto Joseph: Unto thee hath it fallen to take the virgin of the Lord and keep her.
13 And Joseph refused, saying: I've sons, and am an old man, but she is a girl: lest I became a laughing-stock to the children of Israel

James, 9: 6 Mary ...took the pitcher and went to fill it with water: and a voice saying: Hail, thou art highly favoured; the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women.
8 And she looked about her to the right hand and left, to see where this voice came: filled with trembling she went to her house and set down the pitcher, and took the purple and sat down upon her seat and drew out the thread.
9 And behold a messenger of the Lord stood before her saying: Fear not, Mary, for thou hast found grace before the Lord of all things, and thou shalt conceive according to his word.
10 When she heard it, questioned in herself, what does this mean? Mary was not afraid of the messenger because she had seen him frequently at the temple, and was well acquainted with him.
11 The Lord is with thee and thou shall conceive. I do not intend anything inconsistent with your vow of chastity in my greeting, for thou hast made chastity thy choice.
12 Mary replied, “Shall I conceive by the blessing of the living God, and bring forth after the manner of all fertile women? I have made a vow to the Lord, never to lie with a man, and how can I become pregnant without the entry of a man?”
13 And the messenger of the Lord said: Not so, Mary, the power of the Lord shall overshadow thee: wherefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of the Highest.
14 The child that shall be born of thee thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins
Posted by Philo, Friday, 23 September 2005 9:23:54 AM
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Philo,

Impressed with your deep understanding of Jesus story in the Quran.
“Jesus being a miracle and the spirit from God” is what Muslims believe.

One key difference however, the word “spirit from God” is used across the Quran for blessed special human beings: ie Abraham, good believers, etc. God talks about himself as super entity with nothing of its creatures associated to him or resemble him.
The spirit from God does not make them God nor divine.

Good discussion, thanks for the clarification re Paul.
Posted by Fellow_Human, Friday, 23 September 2005 10:00:00 AM
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Fellow_Human,
From what I have understood of Mahomet's teaching concerning Jesus it came from a renegade Coptic Priest who taught that Jesus was not human but a spirit that God implanted in the womb of Mary, who could not die but ascended to heaven.

This is not what I uphold. It does not stack up against the body of contemporary secular history written about him. Jesus was very human and those of his close friends defend this, especially John who in the end of the first century saw such false teaching emerge [1 John 2: 18 - 23]. His letters to the churches identify that those who believe such doctrine are the antichrist. Jesus was not just a spirit. He even denies this himself after his resurrection by the statement, "a spirit does not posess flesh and bone as you see me to have [Luke 24: 39}."

Christian faith is in the fact of the historical humanity of Jesus, who by his life demonstrated moral character and sacrificial loving attitudes and he called us to follow him [1 John 2: 6]. The spirit of the antichrist that John identified merely upholds a body of false doctrine and fails to follow the example he set for living as godly humans in this world.
Posted by Philo, Monday, 26 September 2005 6:18:59 PM
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Philo,

The first part of ur message is not correct. Jesus to us, Muslims, is a human conceived by the Virgin Mary with no biological father. The word spirit means he was sent to the Israelites to correct their literalism and re-enforce the spiritual understanding of the Mosaic law. When they denounced his message after all his miracles, Jesus was asked to preach to the non-israelites the real meaning of monotheism and re-explain “God chosen” people.

When he was persecuted and tortured, the Quran states that he was protected by his ascension and that he is to come back at the end of days.
There is 33 references in the Quran to the story of Jesus.

Thanks for the discussion,
Posted by Fellow_Human, Wednesday, 28 September 2005 6:29:43 PM
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